Yes, it's a good thing more people are getting into "our" culture, since that means more likely companies will continue to develop new games, expansions, etc.
The problem is that popularity = mediocrity. Since more people are paying to get this content, the companies water it down to reach wider & wider audiences, 'cause hey, who doesn't love money?
So when, to use Gabe's term, stupid frat fucks buy lots of Madden, that's good because they're going to get too fat & lazy to play real football too, but also because a new game developer now has a harder time selling a radical new RPG, than say, another football game.
Man, what? That's like saying no one can ever make a good movie because a lot of people watch movies.
The worst case scenario from here on out is that there are exactly as many games that are exactly as good (leaving aside the fact you apparently think anything popular is automatically bad) as there have been in the past, because the pool of "hardcore" gamers is as big as it always has been and anything that could have succeeded then has just as large a market now.
In actuality, the number of people who would like the type of game you are referring to (because I pretty much out of hand reject the idea just because a lot of people like something it must be bad) will almost certainly grow. You remove the social stigma attached to gaming and expose orders of magnitude more people to it and the number of people who like what you do will inevitably increase.
Now, if you want to argue the top sellers are unlikely to be Crazy Experimental Game X, then yeah, that's true (though not necessarily a bad thing). There may also be financial constraints due to increasing complexity of games, but that has nothing to do with gaming's increasing popularity and is simply a trend that was present well before gaming went mainstream. That doesn't stop people from releasing risky games, it may simply limit them from certain systems or certain publishers.
As long as there's still a viable market for indie games (and their certainly is) arguing popularity equals crappiness is simply useless elitism.
Yes, it's a good thing more people are getting into "our" culture, since that means more likely companies will continue to develop new games, expansions, etc.
The problem is that popularity = mediocrity. Since more people are paying to get this content, the companies water it down to reach wider & wider audiences, 'cause hey, who doesn't love money?
So when, to use Gabe's term, stupid frat fucks buy lots of Madden, that's good because they're going to get too fat & lazy to play real football too, but also because a new game developer now has a harder time selling a radical new RPG, than say, another football game.
Man, what? That's like saying no one can ever make a good movie because a lot of people watch movies.
The worst case scenario from here on out is that there are exactly as many games that are exactly as good (leaving aside the fact you apparently think anything popular is automatically bad) as there have been in the past, because the pool of "hardcore" gamers is as big as it always has been and anything that could have succeeded then has just as large a market now.
In actuality, the number of people who would like the type of game you are referring to (because I pretty much out of hand reject the idea just because a lot of people like something it must be bad) will almost certainly grow. You remove the social stigma attached to gaming and expose orders of magnitude more people to it and the number of people who like what you do will inevitably increase.
Now, if you want to argue the top sellers are unlikely to be Crazy Experimental Game X, then yeah, that's true (though not necessarily a bad thing). There may also be financial constraints due to increasing complexity of games, but that has nothing to do with gaming's increasing popularity and is simply a trend that was present well before gaming went mainstream. That doesn't stop people from releasing risky games, it may simply limit them from certain systems or certain publishers.
As long as there's still a viable market for indie games (and their certainly is) arguing popularity equals crappiness is simply useless elitism.
Not saying it's bad, just that when a product is desired by the masses, it's very unlikely the manufacturer is going to go off in some bold new direction and say, "No, we'd rather stick with our limited niche audience, thanks." See the case of American Idolv. Firefly for more information.
They can make good movies, and many popular ones are, but a lot of dren is made just to make $. Spider-Man was an example of the geek world being done well and still being popular. Transformers was an example of geek culture being watered down for mass audience.
Not saying it's bad, just that when a product is desired by the masses, it's very unlikely the manufacturer is going to go off in some bold new direction and say, "No, we'd rather stick with our limited niche audience, thanks." See the case of American Idolv. Firefly for more information.
They can make good movies, and many popular ones are, but a lot of dren is made just to make $. Spider-Man was an example of the geek world being done well and still being popular. Transformers was an example of geek culture being watered down for mass audience.
Actually, big blockbuster hits fund money-losing "prestige" films. So I'd disagree with your initial premise for movies.
Video game companies don't do that yet but I'm sure they will eventually.
Thing is, for the general audience out there, there is no difference between people who play the occassional game or read the occasional comic and they people who are really into the stuff.
I'm not a geek/nerd in any hardcore way (except for the lack of social skills, perhaps) but for my coworkers I couldn't be more geeky because any game and any anime is totally beyond their scope of interest. So no wonder when people like this, who happen to find themselves on Myspace one day, think that they are hardcore.
I consider myself a mixture of both the chic and the true geek.
Yeah, I consider myself an Anime/Manga/Anime Figure Geek but instead of being the guy who doesn't shower and such, I am up there talking and chating to people that don't share my hobbies.
I have a couple of Saber (From Fate/Stay Night) and a Tales of the Abyss figure on my desk at work and posters on the wall. Do they interfear with my work? No, they don't because those that come for business discuss business and those that come wondering what I have I tell them without jumping all over them describing the stuff in extreme detail.
In short, its better to be both and met new people so I don't really see Chic vs Real fights where I am. Hell my friends are all professionals and they are all into what I do, some of us have wives/girlfriends/boyfriends and we get along well. Our S.O's are what you would call Chic.
Yes, it's a good thing more people are getting into "our" culture, since that means more likely companies will continue to develop new games, expansions, etc.
The problem is that popularity = mediocrity.
Really?
Probably not.
As something gets more popular you'll see more people imitating and more people just trying to make a quick buck with derivative games. However, there will still be plenty of great, amazing games coming out, you just have to sort through more stuff to find it now. It's like any medium really, the majority of products that come out of it are going to be pretty middle of the road and not noteworthy.
One thing I never understood about geeks talking about there past is how they all got bullied and picked on etc. I was amazingly geeky in Jr. Highschool/Highschool. Convincing people to play warhammer and D&D and trying to convince people to watch anime. All you have to do as a geek is make a united front with your fellow geeks against bullies to not be picked on. If your group is harder than another group, the bullies will just move on. Taking a few years of martial arts probably didn't hurt either (never got into a fight at school, but I always held my ground, the martial arts probably gave me the balls for that.)
Hell, by the end of Jr. Highschool me and one other guy were the only ones that watched anime and by the end of it about 80% of the school (admittedly it was a small school) was talking about Cowboy Bebop. (This was before it aired on adult swim, heck, before there was an adult swim i think)
They can make good movies, and many popular ones are, but a lot of dren is made just to make $. Spider-Man was an example of the geek world being done well and still being popular. Transformers was an example of geek culture being watered down for mass audience.
I agree that Transformers was watered down somewhat, but it's not a great example. The cartoon that movie is based on was created in order to market toys.
That being said I think Superman Returns is probably a better example of what you're talking about.
Werrick on
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be rude without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
I consider myself a mixture of both the chic and the true geek.
I think even the most hard-core geek probably does as well. No matter how dorky one's tastes are there will always be the mainstream thing that they like. Just like no matter how preppy or sporty a jock is there'll always be that one superhero he really liked, or that one sci-fi show or comic book he never missed out on.
I think Geekdom has something for everyone.
The irony here is that we're talking about people "posing" as geeks and not knowing what the fuck they're doing or talking about, but ten, fifteen years ago it was the geeks who were posing in order to either be cool or at least not get their asses kicked. It's interesting to see it come full circle and have my own home culture descriminate or talk disparagingly about folks who did exactly what geeks did back in the day.
I remember how much that hurt and how much I didn't fit in with the "cool kids", and now that I'm "cool" or "chic" for my interests I refuse to turn anyone away. I delight in finding someone who has an interest in the culture, even if they know nothing.
Werrick on
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be rude without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
On geeks being beaten up: Remember that a great deal of geekdom, at least in the past, was about isolation. Single player games and all that jazz. Isolation tends to make you a target, regardless of your interests, because it's much harder to defend yourself when you're surrounded. And, when you're used to basically being forced to flee, even when you DO gather in groups, the instinct tends to stay.
I've had DnD buddies -climb a tree- when a roving gang of older assholes showed up to be douches.
Also, have we already discussed the people that pretend to be your friends so they can use you for free tech support/software piracy? People still pull that crap on me to this day (And sadly I still fall for it.) and I hope every last one of them gets molested.
I think of myself as a nerd, certainly (I hesitate to call myself a geek because I always feel like geek has an outright negative connotation. After all, the word did originate with people who bit the heads off of live chickens and whatnot), and I take pleasure in many nerdy pursuits. From gaming to sci-fi, to philosophy to politics, I think of myself as something of a nerd in all these ways.
And, while I would never turn someone away who was not as nerdy as I am (really only one or two of my friends are, and I'm actually much closer with my other friends), I do enjoy being part of a group. There are common languages, there is background knowledge -- shared experience. And let's not belittle that. That can be a great thing.
It's one reason why I don't belittle people being interested in sports (any more). That's a common language. There are millions of people across the world who, without knowing each other at all, can strike up a lively conversation for hours, even, that can lead to deeper and more meaningful ones down the road. Or maybe it's just a way to interact with a stranger in a more friendly and welcoming way than is considered typical. There's something nice about that, too.
And who doesn't love to share new experiences with pals? Reminscing is sure fun, but so is grabbing the latest shooter and blasting through a few levels with a pal, while you discuss your excitement over the imminent approach of some other nerdly pastime. Sharing your apprehensions, hopes, and eventually those initial moments -- it makes an experience so much more enjoyable, even more meaningful than simply experiencing them alone.
Sure, you don't have to label yourself to do this, but I rather like to think of myself as a nerd. It feels a little comforting to feel like there are millions of other people out there who share a culture with you, who you can relate to. Sometimes, you can even spot them. It's nice to feel that bond, tenuous and stretched though it may be, to other people, even when they aren't in your company. And there's no good reason why any of this warm, comforting connection has to come at the expense of hanging out with others who don't share your interests or sub-culture.
TL;DR -- are groupings bad? Not in the least! Like anything, it's how you use them that matters, and when used properly, common knowledge and common experience is a poweful bonding force that can make you feel more connected to other human beings, and when is that ever bad?
sdrawkcaB emaN on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited August 2007
has anyone read the book Geek (or Geeks, can't remember) by something Katz? John Katz, I think, but not the comedian.
People do that to ANYONE with a skill they don't have. It's not just techies.
It's just opening jars.
I've had people ask me to build them computers from scratch/fix their broken 360s/setup stereo systems and projector TVs. A little bit more involved than jar opening.
People do that to ANYONE with a skill they don't have. It's not just techies.
It's just opening jars.
I've had people ask me to build them computers from scratch
Man, that's totally an enjoyable activity. And generally people are willing to pay you, or at the very least you could probably manage to skim a little off the top.
Plus I'm just really into that shit. I start out fairly apathetic, but as I browse Newegg and check through the Fry's ads in the paper and start finding all sorts of great deals, I eventually become dead-set on the perfect rig for that person and I succumb to an overwhelming need to build it.
I think it's what I do instead of having children.
People do that to ANYONE with a skill they don't have. It's not just techies.
It's just opening jars.
I've had people ask me to build them computers from scratch
Man, that's totally an enjoyable activity. And generally people are willing to pay you, or at the very least you could probably manage to skim a little off the top.
People do that to ANYONE with a skill they don't have. It's not just techies.
It's just opening jars.
I've had people ask me to build them computers from scratch/fix their broken 360s/setup stereo systems and projector TVs. A little bit more involved than jar opening.
And I've helped build houses since I was 11, what's your point?
--
What the hell is this PAY nonsense? Shit I never even got paid when someone commissioned me to draw a cartoon character for their thesis book.
I've helped alot of people do alot of things. I've helped people with their jobs cleaning pools and landscaping or other crap. That doesn't piss me off. Hell I'm glad to do it. When someone who I haven't seen in 6 months suddenly calls out of the blue and after 15 minutes of talking they work the conversation over to something they want from me, and once they get it, disappear. That pisses me off.
I've helped alot of people do alot of things. I've helped people with their jobs cleaning pools and landscaping or other crap. That doesn't piss me off. Hell I'm glad to do it. When someone who I haven't seen in 6 months suddenly calls out of the blue and after 15 minutes of talking they work the conversation over to something they want from me, and once they get it, disappear. That pisses me off.
Yea it sucks. People do that shit to me too. This is how it goes down for me:
"So Brando whats going on today?"
"Nothing Much."
"So my computer broke and etc etc etc your now my whore etc etc etc."
"Alright so its fixed."
"Hey awesome! Oh no! I just remembered I have to take my...mother...to the mall."
"O_o?"
"Yea shes addicted to shopping y'know.
"Oh well alright then cya."
Posts
Man, what? That's like saying no one can ever make a good movie because a lot of people watch movies.
The worst case scenario from here on out is that there are exactly as many games that are exactly as good (leaving aside the fact you apparently think anything popular is automatically bad) as there have been in the past, because the pool of "hardcore" gamers is as big as it always has been and anything that could have succeeded then has just as large a market now.
In actuality, the number of people who would like the type of game you are referring to (because I pretty much out of hand reject the idea just because a lot of people like something it must be bad) will almost certainly grow. You remove the social stigma attached to gaming and expose orders of magnitude more people to it and the number of people who like what you do will inevitably increase.
Now, if you want to argue the top sellers are unlikely to be Crazy Experimental Game X, then yeah, that's true (though not necessarily a bad thing). There may also be financial constraints due to increasing complexity of games, but that has nothing to do with gaming's increasing popularity and is simply a trend that was present well before gaming went mainstream. That doesn't stop people from releasing risky games, it may simply limit them from certain systems or certain publishers.
As long as there's still a viable market for indie games (and their certainly is) arguing popularity equals crappiness is simply useless elitism.
well, it does make absolute sense.
Not saying it's bad, just that when a product is desired by the masses, it's very unlikely the manufacturer is going to go off in some bold new direction and say, "No, we'd rather stick with our limited niche audience, thanks." See the case of American Idol v. Firefly for more information.
They can make good movies, and many popular ones are, but a lot of dren is made just to make $. Spider-Man was an example of the geek world being done well and still being popular. Transformers was an example of geek culture being watered down for mass audience.
Actually, big blockbuster hits fund money-losing "prestige" films. So I'd disagree with your initial premise for movies.
Video game companies don't do that yet but I'm sure they will eventually.
I'm not a geek/nerd in any hardcore way (except for the lack of social skills, perhaps) but for my coworkers I couldn't be more geeky because any game and any anime is totally beyond their scope of interest. So no wonder when people like this, who happen to find themselves on Myspace one day, think that they are hardcore.
Yeah, I consider myself an Anime/Manga/Anime Figure Geek but instead of being the guy who doesn't shower and such, I am up there talking and chating to people that don't share my hobbies.
I have a couple of Saber (From Fate/Stay Night) and a Tales of the Abyss figure on my desk at work and posters on the wall. Do they interfear with my work? No, they don't because those that come for business discuss business and those that come wondering what I have I tell them without jumping all over them describing the stuff in extreme detail.
In short, its better to be both and met new people so I don't really see Chic vs Real fights where I am. Hell my friends are all professionals and they are all into what I do, some of us have wives/girlfriends/boyfriends and we get along well. Our S.O's are what you would call Chic.
As something gets more popular you'll see more people imitating and more people just trying to make a quick buck with derivative games. However, there will still be plenty of great, amazing games coming out, you just have to sort through more stuff to find it now. It's like any medium really, the majority of products that come out of it are going to be pretty middle of the road and not noteworthy.
One thing I never understood about geeks talking about there past is how they all got bullied and picked on etc. I was amazingly geeky in Jr. Highschool/Highschool. Convincing people to play warhammer and D&D and trying to convince people to watch anime. All you have to do as a geek is make a united front with your fellow geeks against bullies to not be picked on. If your group is harder than another group, the bullies will just move on. Taking a few years of martial arts probably didn't hurt either (never got into a fight at school, but I always held my ground, the martial arts probably gave me the balls for that.)
Hell, by the end of Jr. Highschool me and one other guy were the only ones that watched anime and by the end of it about 80% of the school (admittedly it was a small school) was talking about Cowboy Bebop. (This was before it aired on adult swim, heck, before there was an adult swim i think)
I agree that Transformers was watered down somewhat, but it's not a great example. The cartoon that movie is based on was created in order to market toys.
That being said I think Superman Returns is probably a better example of what you're talking about.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
I think even the most hard-core geek probably does as well. No matter how dorky one's tastes are there will always be the mainstream thing that they like. Just like no matter how preppy or sporty a jock is there'll always be that one superhero he really liked, or that one sci-fi show or comic book he never missed out on.
I think Geekdom has something for everyone.
The irony here is that we're talking about people "posing" as geeks and not knowing what the fuck they're doing or talking about, but ten, fifteen years ago it was the geeks who were posing in order to either be cool or at least not get their asses kicked. It's interesting to see it come full circle and have my own home culture descriminate or talk disparagingly about folks who did exactly what geeks did back in the day.
I remember how much that hurt and how much I didn't fit in with the "cool kids", and now that I'm "cool" or "chic" for my interests I refuse to turn anyone away. I delight in finding someone who has an interest in the culture, even if they know nothing.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
I've had DnD buddies -climb a tree- when a roving gang of older assholes showed up to be douches.
A lot.
I'm a scrappy guy.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
It's just opening jars.
And, while I would never turn someone away who was not as nerdy as I am (really only one or two of my friends are, and I'm actually much closer with my other friends), I do enjoy being part of a group. There are common languages, there is background knowledge -- shared experience. And let's not belittle that. That can be a great thing.
It's one reason why I don't belittle people being interested in sports (any more). That's a common language. There are millions of people across the world who, without knowing each other at all, can strike up a lively conversation for hours, even, that can lead to deeper and more meaningful ones down the road. Or maybe it's just a way to interact with a stranger in a more friendly and welcoming way than is considered typical. There's something nice about that, too.
And who doesn't love to share new experiences with pals? Reminscing is sure fun, but so is grabbing the latest shooter and blasting through a few levels with a pal, while you discuss your excitement over the imminent approach of some other nerdly pastime. Sharing your apprehensions, hopes, and eventually those initial moments -- it makes an experience so much more enjoyable, even more meaningful than simply experiencing them alone.
Sure, you don't have to label yourself to do this, but I rather like to think of myself as a nerd. It feels a little comforting to feel like there are millions of other people out there who share a culture with you, who you can relate to. Sometimes, you can even spot them. It's nice to feel that bond, tenuous and stretched though it may be, to other people, even when they aren't in your company. And there's no good reason why any of this warm, comforting connection has to come at the expense of hanging out with others who don't share your interests or sub-culture.
TL;DR -- are groupings bad? Not in the least! Like anything, it's how you use them that matters, and when used properly, common knowledge and common experience is a poweful bonding force that can make you feel more connected to other human beings, and when is that ever bad?
I've had people ask me to build them computers from scratch/fix their broken 360s/setup stereo systems and projector TVs. A little bit more involved than jar opening.
Man, that's totally an enjoyable activity. And generally people are willing to pay you, or at the very least you could probably manage to skim a little off the top.
Plus I'm just really into that shit. I start out fairly apathetic, but as I browse Newegg and check through the Fry's ads in the paper and start finding all sorts of great deals, I eventually become dead-set on the perfect rig for that person and I succumb to an overwhelming need to build it.
I think it's what I do instead of having children.
You'd think that wouldn't you?
And I've helped build houses since I was 11, what's your point?
--
What the hell is this PAY nonsense? Shit I never even got paid when someone commissioned me to draw a cartoon character for their thesis book.
Soldering isn't nearly as much fun when it's copper pipe and you're -under- the pipe, in the dirt, dodging boiling flux.
Friendships are often more about connections than mutual interest, unfortunately.
Yea it sucks. People do that shit to me too. This is how it goes down for me:
"So Brando whats going on today?"
"Nothing Much."
"So my computer broke and etc etc etc your now my whore etc etc etc."
"Alright so its fixed."
"Hey awesome! Oh no! I just remembered I have to take my...mother...to the mall."
"O_o?"
"Yea shes addicted to shopping y'know.
"Oh well alright then cya."