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I can't get my guitar to sound good.

Food?Food? Registered User regular
edited August 2007 in Help / Advice Forum
Almost ever. If I plug it into a real amp connected to say, a 4x12 stack, it sounds fantastic. However, since I have no such luxury 99% of the time, it sounds like ass. The usual setup is as follows:

Ephiphone SG Korina (gold hardware) -->
Boss DS-1 Distortion Pedal -->
Dunlop CryBaby Wah -->
Line6 POD 2.0 pre-amp thingy --> option A or B

option A: Mackie 8 channel mixer --> 2 JBL EOS speakers
option B: POD headphone jack --> Altec Lansing 2.1 computer speakers

The problem seems to be while I can get a good clean tone, once I kick distortion in, it sounds like shit. It's vice-versa as well - I can get it to sound nice in distortion, but the clean sound is crap.

Does anyone have much experience in something like this?

gr_smile2.gif
Food? on

Posts

  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    Try it without the line6 hardware

    Pheezer on
    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    wait

    hold on

    you don't have an amplifier, just that line6 thing, right?

    get a dedicated amplifier that isn't crap.

    Pheezer on
    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
  • Food?Food? Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    DrDizaster wrote: »
    wait

    hold on

    you don't have an amplifier, just that line6 thing, right?

    get a dedicated amplifier that isn't crap.

    Correct. How much is a decent amp? I'm unfortunately not Mr. Moneybags.

    Also, I just thought of something. Could my inconsistent shitty sound have something to do with running my guitar through a distortion pedal and then into the pre-amp? If the pre-amp is trying to produce a clear sound, and then I throw a distorted sound at it, wouldn't it take away certain parts of the sound? Or am I a blubbering idiot?

    Food? on
    gr_smile2.gif
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Place at the tableRegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    man just saying "practice some more" here would be totally worth the infraction

    Seriously though, as a person who only plays bass, man that sounds like a lot of steps...you should get a good little amp and reduce it to just guitar->amp

    JohnnyCache on
  • The CheeseThe Cheese Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    You can't really get a patch for any of those amp modelling things that sounds good both clean and distorted. You should just make a couple presets that you like and switch between them.

    Or buy a real amp. What's your budget?

    The Cheese on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited August 2007
    here is your ideal setup

    guitar > cable > amp

    Tube on
  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    It's got nothing to do with running your guitar through the pedal into the pre-amp, it's to do with using a pre-amp of extremely questionable quality as your only amplification. A pre-amp isn't meant to push speakers, it's meant to modify the signal prior to an amplifier that will boost it up to output levels. Using it to push speakers is probably really hard on the small amplifier circuit inside the Line6 unit and the unit is behaving erratically as a result.

    I mean, I don't know what kind of amplifier circuit is in there or whether or not this is really what's happening, but based on what you're seeing in terms of results makes it seem pretty likely. Just get an amp head and run the line6 into that. You can get a used, low power head unit for probably as low as $50-$100.

    Pheezer on
    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
  • JeedanJeedan Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    PODs arent that bad. But they tend to sound like ass if you try and compine them with an external distortion.

    Aso you need to tweak speaker simulation on or off depending on what you're going into.

    Jeedan on
  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    here is your ideal setup

    guitar > cable > amp

    This would be good if he had a tube amp that he could use for distortion, but there's nothing wrong with either of the pedals he listed. They're both good pedals with solid construction and good tone. The Line6 unit however is well, Line6. They're okay I guess but really, you don't need an amp modeller if you're practicing at home, and you can't use them for recording unless you want to sound like a complete fuck. And don't even think of using one on stage.

    Now that's what's wrong with using them for their INTENDED purpose, which is to modify the sound of the guitar to make it sound like you have a better amp than you actually do. They are NOT intended to function as amplifiers unless you buy one of their amplifier units that has a power amp built in. A preamp is not a power amp. Using it to drive loudspeakers will damage the amplifier that does come in it and will sound like ass, as has been discovered. This is not due to the type of signal going into the preamp, it is due to the preamp's amp circuit being completely overwhelmed and being used for a task it's not designed for.

    The pre-amp boosts the input signal to line levels and modifies it. The amplifier takes that line signal boosts it to output levels and drives the speakers.

    You need that second half of the equation. You can get a really small, really weak one that will instantly make everything sound infinitely better for a very low price. You won't get much volume, but it won't be completely distorted out.

    Pheezer on
    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
  • Bob The MonkeyBob The Monkey Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    DrDizaster wrote: »
    you can't use them for recording unless you want to sound like a complete fuck.

    and suddenly I remember why everybody thinks you're a dick


    Edit: Oh wait, H&A. OK, here's the advice.

    First of all, DrDizaster/pheezer is pretty wrong on a lot of levels. First of all, if there wasn't a power amp stage you wouldn't hear anything at all. The signal coming out of a preamp is orders of magnitude quieter than the signal coming out of a poweramp. But of course, you can hear a sound. This is because many speakers come with a built in power stage: certainly computer speakers and (based on the fact you can get them to make sounds) your JBLs too.


    The thing is, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. You say you can get a good clean tone and a good distorted tone but never a tone that can handle both: I take that as meaning you use a single patch for both, rather than switching between. If this is indeed the case, here is your problem: if you dial in a clean tone to the POD and use the DS-1 for distortion, you're using a distortion pedal that's designed to drive valve circuitry to drive a transistor circuit. The results will not be satisfactory.

    If, on the other hand, you set up a tone that sounds good distorted, you will really struggle to get any good clean tone out of it by rolling off your volume. Without going into unnecessary detail, PODs don't distort a signal in the same way that valve amplifiers do*, and the result is that to get a good, saturated tone out of the POD it takes a lot more gain than it does to do the same with a valve amplifier. This increase of gain essentially means that backing off the volume ain't going to do you no good and, even if you do roll it low enough, the signal from your guitar will be so weedy that it really won't sound any good by itself.

    The answer? Spend thirty dollars or so on one of the switches that lets you flick between channels on the POD. Set up a good clean tone and a good distorted tone and you're ready to go. I know it's not ideal (spending money is never ideal) but it's the cheapest way you're going to be able to get satisfactory results.


    *in valve amplifiers, a lot of saturation is provided by the post-amp distortion, which provides a much warmer and softer compression to the signal. This means that the pre-amp gain can be set fairly low as long as the post-amp is running hot and you'll get a big, strong sounding tone. On a POD there is no emulation of post-amp distortion, and so to compensate for the loss of a stage of saturation the pre-amp gain has to be increased. Valve amplifiers also clip the waveform in a far 'softer' way than transistor units like the POD, but I am not going to go into detail about that at this time of night.

    Bob The Monkey on
  • Food?Food? Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Here is where my limited knowledge of guitar hardware shows. I'm going to re-read Bob's post a few more times, as there are some terms in there that I haven't seen in years (back when I was first learning how to play and I was researching all the effects, etc.). I think I got most of it, and when I get it all, it's sure to be the most helpful information so far.

    Bob, when you mentioned getting a switch, I thought of something. I have a MIDI footpedal controller thing around here somewhere that I used to use to switch the PODs effects on and off (it had 12 buttons, I think). Could you perhaps explain this whole "channels" thing in more detail, and would it be possible to use the MIDI controller to do the switching?

    Food? on
    gr_smile2.gif
  • Bob The MonkeyBob The Monkey Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Food? wrote: »
    Here is where my limited knowledge of guitar hardware shows. I'm going to re-read Bob's post a few more times, as there are some terms in there that I haven't seen in years (back when I was first learning how to play and I was researching all the effects, etc.). I think I got most of it, and when I get it all, it's sure to be the most helpful information so far.

    Bob, when you mentioned getting a switch, I thought of something. I have a MIDI footpedal controller thing around here somewhere that I used to use to switch the PODs effects on and off (it had 12 buttons, I think). Could you perhaps explain this whole "channels" thing in more detail, and would it be possible to use the MIDI controller to do the switching?

    A channel is a tone you have set up and saved on the POD2. It should come with a whole load of presets saved that you can flick between, although I don't own one myself so I don't know the specifics.

    That MIDI controller pedal sounds awesome. I've looked up the POD2 manual and to change the channel with a MIDI pedal you need to send a MIDI Program Change signal to the POD. Sending a MIDI Program Change signal of 01 will select Bank 1, Channel A; a signal of 02 will select Bank 1, Channel B; a signal of 05 will select Bank 2, Channel A, so on and so forth. Having never used a MIDI controller I have no idea how you'd set this up, but it seems like pretty basic MIDI functionality from the little I've read.

    Then you just set up the two channels you want to switch between, note the banks and channels they're in, and set up the controller to send the appropriate messages to select those channels. Bingo, no money spent and you've solved your problem.

    Bob The Monkey on
  • Food?Food? Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I switched the distortion pedal and the POD, and instead of providing distortion, the pedal merely turned into a substantial volume-increaser. I'm hooking up my ART X-15 Ultrafoot now.

    Food? on
    gr_smile2.gif
  • Bob The MonkeyBob The Monkey Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Never ever put a distortion pedal after your pre-amp because that is a terrible idea that will lead to famine, leprosy and other nastinesses of biblical proportions.

    Also it will not do the pedal much good.

    Bob The Monkey on
  • Food?Food? Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Quick question for anyone familiar with MIDI programming: the POD manual says that to switch to, say Channel 7D, the MIDI program is 28. However, 28 is listed in the effects list as Delay. This can't be. What am I reading wrong?

    Food? on
    gr_smile2.gif
  • The CheeseThe Cheese Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Did you try it and see what happens?

    The Cheese on
  • virgilsammsvirgilsamms Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    My mate has an Epiphone Valve Junior and it sounds like what you're looking for. Cheap, simple, good tone. It's going to sound worlds better than your current setup at any rate.

    virgilsamms on
  • Bob The MonkeyBob The Monkey Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Food? wrote: »
    Quick question for anyone familiar with MIDI programming: the POD manual says that to switch to, say Channel 7D, the MIDI program is 28. However, 28 is listed in the effects list as Delay. This can't be. What am I reading wrong?

    My guess would be this: There are two types of MIDI signals, MIDI controller signals and MIDI program change signals. Delay is presumably controlled by the controller signal number 28; the channel change is controlled by the MIDI program change signal of the same number.

    Bob The Monkey on
  • Food?Food? Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Food? wrote: »
    Quick question for anyone familiar with MIDI programming: the POD manual says that to switch to, say Channel 7D, the MIDI program is 28. However, 28 is listed in the effects list as Delay. This can't be. What am I reading wrong?

    My guess would be this: There are two types of MIDI signals, MIDI controller signals and MIDI program change signals. Delay is presumably controlled by the controller signal number 28; the channel change is controlled by the MIDI program change signal of the same number.

    This could be. I noticed the MIDI controller has two modes while I was setting it up. One mode seemed to be switching between amp effects (I wasn't sure though, I'll look at it in a little bit), while the other allowed me to turn individual effects on and off. Either way, I'm still not getting exactly what I want, as the distortion effect doesn't want to do anything when I press it.

    Food? on
    gr_smile2.gif
  • MuragoMurago Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    You're signal is not being represented properly by two things:

    1 The order of effects

    2 Your main output

    When it comes to musical equipment, you honestly get what you pay for. I have used both effects you have, and while i think Line 6 is terrible, i've still toyed with it. But neither of those things are going to give you the lush tone you want. You need a decent amplifier. I would recommend selling both the effects pedals you have and picking up a Vox 2x12 transistor modeling amp.

    I used that for a LONG time, and its going to give you everything you want! Delay effects, different amp models, different distortions and effects. Its gonna be a pretty costly unless you can find it used.

    Murago on
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  • EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    An amp honestly made all the difference for me, and I'm not even using a guitar amp. I tried the guitar > pre-amp > mixer > effects > output thing, and it just sounded thin and shitty.

    I plugged it into my 12" bass amp, and it sounds fantastic with a pure signal. Friend of mine has a pretty decent amp that he keeps stored for a friend, but he records everything using an old 25W practice amp because it sounds really good at indoor/recording levels. Big amps are great if you're playing clubs or outdoors, but don't sound any better if you can't crank 'em. A small practice amp, or even an old 60s-era, low-wattage amp will sound infinitely better than your current setup.

    I'm not much of a guitar guy, but I know that the utterly basic setup is guitar>cable>amp, like Tube pointed out. Get that first. If you don't have one of those components, you're definitely missing something.

    Then you worry about effects and other things. if you don't have the basics, you have no real way to gauge your guitar's sound.

    EggyToast on
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  • musanmanmusanman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    perhaps this is the thread for this:

    I love strumming on the ole fender, and it's great to have around while watching tv or something. Problem is I realized I don't EVER plug the damn thing in anymore. I have a 15 watt Line6 amp upstairs, and after going to guitar center a couple times and plugging into the super expensive amps realized that is pretty much sounds like garbage.

    What I want to know is what kind of tube amps can I get to make my guitar sound sexy again, and how cheap can I get them?

    musanman on
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  • MishraMishra Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    musanman wrote: »
    perhaps this is the thread for this:

    I love strumming on the ole fender, and it's great to have around while watching tv or something. Problem is I realized I don't EVER plug the damn thing in anymore. I have a 15 watt Line6 amp upstairs, and after going to guitar center a couple times and plugging into the super expensive amps realized that is pretty much sounds like garbage.

    What I want to know is what kind of tube amps can I get to make my guitar sound sexy again, and how cheap can I get them?

    I got my Mesa Boogie Nomad 45 for $600, or the roland micro cube is about $120 I recommend either though the roland is solid state.

    Mishra on
    "Give a man a fire, he's warm for the night. Set a man on fire he's warm for the rest of his life."
    -Terry Pratchett
  • musanmanmusanman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I want a tube amp I've never run into a solid state amp that makes my strat sound so pretty. Do they have <$200 tube amps or am I boned?

    musanman on
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  • holycrapawalrusholycrapawalrus Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    musanman wrote: »
    I want a tube amp I've never run into a solid state amp that makes my strat sound so pretty. Do they have <$200 tube amps or am I boned?
    You are boned. Honestly, if you play professionally or even just in a small band, it's worth it to drop the cash for a good tube head and cabinet. Try eBay.

    holycrapawalrus on
  • supabeastsupabeast Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    musanman wrote: »
    I want a tube amp I've never run into a solid state amp that makes my strat sound so pretty. Do they have <$200 tube amps or am I boned?
    You are boned. Honestly, if you play professionally or even just in a small band, it's worth it to drop the cash for a good tube head and cabinet. Try eBay.

    Or if you have a local Craigslist, you can find amp deals that often put flea markets to shame. There are a lot of people out there looking to ditch nice amps of every size and configuration, and they’re all competing with each other on price.

    supabeast on
  • musanmanmusanman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I don't play anywhere near professionally or even in a small band, as much as I would love to have people to play with.

    I should take lessons and really learn how to play. I enjoy it so much but am teaching myself straight solo.

    musanman on
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