If we ever learned anything from South Africa, it was that "white" is simply a political boundary, a term of inclusion and exclusion.
Again, I am sorry about that typo. I was TOTALLY ready to admit that I am generally a gigantic asshole of goatse magnitude for purposes of my own amusement and for strengthening the intellectual chops of others, but apparently it was not fated to be.
Hahaha. Strengthening our chops by pretending to be a non-white conservative.
Don't you see? All along, we were really the racist ones.
Judaism is a religion. Jews are not an ethnic group. Hebrews are an ethnic group within the semitic (people of Shem) branch, although I don't always agree with Abrahamic genealogy anyway. Even so, Semites are generally considered Caucasian, as are Arabs. Just because they're from the Middle East doesn't make them not-white.
My point is: you're a Canadian Jew. I don't know if you can get any whiter.
Also, who said Spaniards aren't white? Unless you're talking about the Moors, you also fail.
Judaism is a religion. Jews are not an ethnic group. Hebrews are an ethnic group within the semitic (people of Shem) branch, although I don't always agree with Abrahamic genealogy anyway. Even so, Semites are generally considered Caucasian, as are Arabs. Just because they're from the Middle East doesn't make them not-white.
My point is: you're a Canadian Jew. I don't know if you can get any whiter.
To be fair to k_a, he's much more weeaboo than white
Also, who said Spaniards aren't white? Unless you're talking about the Moors, you also fail.
The notSpanish are kind of pallid, I think they still count as white.
Why isn't anyone talking about the Irish? There are tons illegal Irish immigrants and no one talks about them because they're not from Mexico.
Actually, during the "build a fence to keep out the brown people" uproar a couple of months ago, NPR did a story on Irish (illegal) immigrants. God, I love public broadcasting.
The Irish woman sounded nice and all, but I couldn't understand a goddamn word she said.
Extra credit: Please demonstrate that people such as the Minutemen or anti-illegal immigration activists are operating out of racial bias, and not out of concern for the law and for the property of ranchers and home owners along the border who routinely endure property destruction and physical harm from drug smugglers, human traffickers, and general criminal alien border crossing.
If they were only worried about the property damage & related issues, they could advocate for the level of legal immigration from Mexico to be increased to the point where illegal immigration would no longer be attractive. i.e., the same number of people would be coming in, but they could do it openly, just catching a regular bus. I'm happy to agree that any minuteman who accepts this solution to the problem of illegal immigration isn't racist.
Extra credit: Please demonstrate that people such as the Minutemen or anti-illegal immigration activists are operating out of racial bias, and not out of concern for the law and for the property of ranchers and home owners along the border who routinely endure property destruction and physical harm from drug smugglers, human traffickers, and general criminal alien border crossing.
Enemy Territory While Gilchrist is newly prominent on the anti-immigration front — he recently joined the California Coalition for Immigration Reform, a hate group whose leader routinely describes Mexicans as "savages" — Simcox has been active since 2002, when he founded Civil Homeland Defense, a Tombstone-based vigilante militia that he brags has captured more than 5,000 Mexicans and Central Americans who entered the country without visas.
The old Simcox said of Mexicans and Central American immigrants, "They have no problem slitting your throat and taking your money or selling drugs to your kids or raping your daughter and they are evil people." The new Simcox said he sympathizes with their plight, and sees them as victims of their own government's failed policies.
Gilchrist gave his sound bites an even more extreme makeover by frequently comparing himself and most of his volunteers to "white Martin Luther Kings," and the Minuteman Project to the civil rights movement. He and Simcox both also preposterously declared in interview after interview that they had designed the Minuteman Project to "protect America from drug dealers and terrorists" as much as to catch undocumented immigrants and turn them over to the U.S. Border Patrol.
The mainstream American media largely failed to challenge these flagrant reinventions, even though Gilchrist's militant rhetoric about immigrants "devouring and plundering our nation" was still up on the Minuteman Project's Web site; even though Simcox's statements are public record (many were published in his own newspaper, the Tombstone Tumbleweed), and even though the Minuteman Project's leaders already had a record of lying to the media.
Early this year, white supremacist and neo-Nazi Web sites began openly recruiting for the Minuteman Project. In response, Gilchrist and Simcox proclaimed that neo-Nazi Skinheads and race warriors from organizations such as the National Alliance and Aryan Nations were specifically banned from participating. Pressured by journalists to explain exactly how they planned to keep these undesirables out, the two organizers said they were working with the FBI to carefully check the backgrounds of all potential Minuteman volunteers, only to have the FBI completely deny this was the case. y've already been taken over. This is enemy territory."
Extra credit: Please demonstrate that people such as the Minutemen or anti-illegal immigration activists are operating out of racial bias, and not out of concern for the law and for the property of ranchers and home owners along the border who routinely endure property destruction and physical harm from drug smugglers, human traffickers, and general criminal alien border crossing.
If they were only worried about the property damage & related issues, they could advocate for the level of legal immigration from Mexico to be increased to the point where illegal immigration would no longer be attractive. i.e., the same number of people would be coming in, but they could do it openly, just catching a regular bus. I'm happy to agree that any minuteman who accepts this solution to the problem of illegal immigration isn't racist.
Ah, I so love the "you have to agree with all my ideas or you're racist" line of argument.
Seriously, look at Zalbinion's post. If you want to prove something, THAT is the way to do it.
The last page brings up an interesting question. While I agree that Ash and Tostitos are white as snow, I've experienced the same kind of classification conundrum.
This is my father. He was born and raised in Beirut. That whole side of the family still lives in Lebanon, and are about as Arabic as it gets.
This is me. My mother's sunburn emboldening genes dominated my father's olive skinned ones, and here my pasty ass stands.
So what am I? Am I white? Arabic? Either way I'm technically Caucasian, but as far as layman's classifications go, what would I be?
In the grand scheme of things, it's all moot, but still.
So what am I? Am I white? Arabic? Either way I'm technically Caucasian, but as far as layman's classifications go, what would I be?
In the grand scheme of things, it's all moot, but still.
In that picture? Totally white. Like as white as it gets. Super white. Like, even if your skin was pitch black your ass would still be white. ;-)
But you've got a point. It's often somewhat arbitrary. I think here the issue was that Tostitos did (and in other threads has) sound like the stereotypical "angry conservative white guy." He was only using vague claims of "not really white"-ness as a lame attempt to defend against this accusation. I think for some of the more ambiguous cases (such as yours) it depends on what culture you identify with...both personally and through your actions.
Tostitos might be able to get away with claiming to be vaguely ethnic, and thus not "really" white, if he didn't seem to identify absolutely (through his actions) with "angry white conservative guy" culture. But if you physically pass for white, and you act white as a motherfucker...yeah.
Though really issues of race/ethnicity are a bit more complicated than this post would even begin to suggest. But for the sake of this thread, Tostito's "yeah, I'm totally not white" claim was pretty much a farce. Especially combined with some of the other bullshit that came along with it (like the whole "get a job" thing).
I think you get to decide what race you are. That's how it works when filling out those little bubbles on standardized tests in school.
Really, though, you want to try to 'pass' for the race that will get you the most benefit out of life. Depending on where you are in the world, racial hierarchy varies. Parentage is a weird rule to follow - I was watching a documentary last week on how mixed races in California's Chinatown have it hard from both sides and can't fit in anywhere. Go figure.
*goes back to watching A Family Thing*
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited September 2007
You're pretty much white, Sami. I mean, the truth is that it has a lot less to do with ancestry than it does "passing". "White" doesn't mean much more than "pale-skinned and not distinctively or classifiably ethnic"
You're pretty much white, Sami. I mean, the truth is that it has a lot less to do with ancestry than it does "passing". "White" doesn't mean much more than "pale-skinned and not distinctively or classifiably ethnic"
Nowadays. Decades ago, it used to be only WASPs at the top of the heap in America. Before that, the Irish, the Polish, and the Ukranians weren't considered white even if they were paler than the president at the time.
Tostitos might be able to get away with claiming to be vaguely ethnic, and thus not "really" white, if he didn't seem to identify absolutely (through his actions) with "angry white conservative guy" culture. But if you physically pass for white, and you act white as a motherfucker...yeah.
"No man it's cool that I say racist shit - I'm a Jew"
There's a difference between skin color type classification and ethnicity/race. Your skin color is just that. What pigment are you? (excluding albinos) Well there you go then. You're a whitey, I'm a whitey, my great grand parents are more tawny/brown/olive skinned. We'd be treated differently by people as a result of this even though we're both basically the same ethnicity.
As far as your ethnicity, it's all up to your heritage and how you grew up. There is no white ethnicity, there are various european ethnicities and they are all generally pale to varying degrees, but Germans are a hell of a lot different from Italians and they're both worlds away from Americans, etc. Same with Arabians and Persians and North Africans, and you could break it down even further if you wanted. Religion can get thrown in there too since it has a good impact on your societal interactions. None of that has any relevance to how brown/black/white/yellow you are.
Extra credit: Please demonstrate that people such as the Minutemen or anti-illegal immigration activists are operating out of racial bias, and not out of concern for the law and for the property of ranchers and home owners along the border who routinely endure property destruction and physical harm from drug smugglers, human traffickers, and general criminal alien border crossing.
If they were only worried about the property damage & related issues, they could advocate for the level of legal immigration from Mexico to be increased to the point where illegal immigration would no longer be attractive. i.e., the same number of people would be coming in, but they could do it openly, just catching a regular bus. I'm happy to agree that any minuteman who accepts this solution to the problem of illegal immigration isn't racist.
Ah, I so love the "you have to agree with all my ideas or you're racist" line of argument.
Seriously, look at Zalbinion's post. If you want to prove something, THAT is the way to do it.
Actually, I don't think that "you have to agree with all my ideas or be racist". The point is that Tostitos was saying that we should allow for the possibility that the Minutemen weren't racist at all, merely reacting to other problems caused by illegal immigration that had nothing to do with race.
Well, how do you test a claim like this? One way is to come up with a solution or rather a hypothetical "solution" which takes care of the specific non-race-related problems that he mentions, without changing the racial element of the situation (to which he says they may have no objection) and then asking if this would be OK with the Minutemen. If it really is the case that these claims about property damage and drug smuggling are not being used as excuses to cover up a racist agenda, if they really are the heart of the issue, then such a solution ought to be acceptable to them.
Actually, I don't think that "you have to agree with all my ideas or be racist". The point is that Tostitos was saying that we should allow for the possibility that the Minutemen weren't racist at all, merely reacting to other problems caused by illegal immigration that had nothing to do with race.
For evidence that the Minutemen are indeed racist for the most part, please see the following:
OCEANSIDE, Calif. — For Halloween last year, Jeff Schwilk turned his front yard into "Casa La Migra," a play on the Spanish words for U.S. immigration authorities. To depict the Mexico-California border, he fenced his yard with sheets of corrugated tin, rimmed with coils of black cord representing barbed wire. Border-hopping scarecrows straddled the fence.
Members of the San Diego Minutemen, the nativist extremist group Schwilk founded in 2005, showed up in mock Border Patrol uniforms to greet trick-or-treaters. Over a megaphone dubbed the "Alien-ator," they shouted, "Alto, la migra, la migra," a demand to "halt" that was heard all over the neighborhood. Painted on the tin fence were "ACLU Sucks" and "Enrique is Gay" — a jab, no doubt, at Enrique Morones, director of the pro-immigrant humanitarian organization, Border Angels.
"We discovered there is nothing scarier to an illegal alien (and their little anchor baby goblins) than a mock border fence scene," Schwilk crowed in a later E-mail. "Most people (Americans) thought our theme was hilarious."
Halloween or not, the San Diego Minutemen take year-round pleasure in scaring immigrants. On Saturday mornings, when they travel to the sleepy suburban gas stations where immigrant day laborers go to find work, they create scenes that would play well in a show called "Nativists Gone Wild." They call immigrants "wetbacks" and "Julios." They pull out Mace and threaten passing motorists who disagree with them. Calling those who hire day laborers "slavemasters," they've been known to slap flashing amber police lights on their SUVs and chase the would-be employers down. When they're not busy physically intimidating migrants, they take to the airwaves and the Internet to accuse them, without a shred of evidence, of running child prostitution rings and practicing "voodoo Santeria rituals."
I love it when people claim shit like this as evidence that they're not "white." If you're not at all involved with their culture, you're fucking white.
Shit, I'm a quarter Italian, and the Italian part is from southern Italy, so that makes me black, right?
I don't get why people are annoyed by someone who speaks a different language. The OP talks about Canadian language as if he owns some special cultural right-of-way that means other people should undertake massive educational efforts in order to communicate with him and not vice versa. There isn't much logical basis for it. "When in Rome..." isn't a great argument.
The bottom line is that if you and another person need to communicate, then you just have to work it out, and ultimately the burden will fall on whomever needs it the most. That's why natives of my country who work in industries with a lot of low-skilled labor end up teaching themselves Spanish. It's a helluva lot easier than wishing everyone would speak English, and cheaper than paying everyone to be bilingual.
If not being able to understand them really bothers you so much, then the solution is to learn their language. Then you can understand them and you won't be bothered anymore. Or, if you don't want to do that, then figure out how to get over your petty bigotries and maybe it won't bother you. These people have taken nothing from you and owe you nothing. If they want to learn your language, that's up to them. Your idea that "this is my country, they should have to learn my language, " etc., is just emotional bullshit.
I love it when people claim shit like this as evidence that they're not "white." If you're not at all involved with their culture, you're fucking white.
Shit, I'm a quarter Italian, and the Italian part is from southern Italy, so that makes me black, right?
I'm actually part lebanese as well, although it mostly seems to be just for the food.
And part Scottish, German, Anglo-Sexy, and probably a wee bit of negro as well. Black and white pictures can be hard to distinguish sometimes.
I just found out I was part Cherokee this past spring when my mother finally got to meet her bio-father.
As for being involved with the culture... does serving booze to natives count? That seems to be most of the culture thats left. That and lotto machines.
I don't get why people are annoyed by someone who speaks a different language. The OP talks about Canadian language as if he owns some special cultural right-of-way that means other people should undertake massive educational efforts in order to communicate with him and not vice versa. There isn't much logical basis for it. "When in Rome..." isn't a great argument.
The bottom line is that if you and another person need to communicate, then you just have to work it out, and ultimately the burden will fall on whomever needs it the most. That's why natives of my country who work in industries with a lot of low-skilled labor end up teaching themselves Spanish. It's a helluva lot easier than wishing everyone would speak English, and cheaper than paying everyone to be bilingual.
If not being able to understand them really bothers you so much, then the solution is to learn their language. Then you can understand them and you won't be bothered anymore. Or, if you don't want to do that, then figure out how to get over your petty bigotries and maybe it won't bother you. These people have taken nothing from you and owe you nothing. If they want to learn your language, that's up to them. Your idea that "this is my country, they should have to learn my language, " etc., is just emotional bullshit.
I think it's more an issue of comfort.
For example, my family has lived in this neighborhood since its construction in the early 50's. In the past, when their kids were going to school here, they were actively involved in the community, and still are, but to a noticeably smaller degree. At first this place was filled with mostly European immigrants and people born in Canada with European, Asian, or - rarely - African ancestry. Business here was conducted in English, no exceptions, which worked fine for everyone. The neighborhood worked really well, and everyone communicated fine with very few exceptions.
Approximately 20 years ago the neighborhood started to welcome a lot of immigrants from other parts of the world. Why there was such an increase of people from the Middle-East and South Asia, I don't know. The noticeable difference between the first few decades my family lived here and now is that sometimes, walking around here, I stick out terribly. A large number of stores around here don't have english signs, and there are times when a clerk will have trouble understanding what I'm saying and I'll have to repeat myself more clearly next time. I've gone into restaurants around here and all the people around me are speaking anything but english, but that's never stopped me from noticing the pleasant tone a waiter's used with one customer change into a much more sour one when dealing with me. While I've never been to a country with customs too different than the ones practiced here, I sometimes feel like when I'm the guy in an elevator, restaurant or on the bus, and my clothes and hair stand out, that I've entered some foreign place.
Maybe we shouldn't sweat the small stuff, and yes, there are much bigger problems to deal with, but Werrick's discomfort is understandable. To stand out, to be the cultural minority in the place you and your parents were raised, is a strange problem I don't think many people here have had to deal with. I really don't see how asking newcomers to operate their businesses in one of Canada's two official languages, or not giving me a dirty look or denying me service because I don't share their cultural heritage or because I'm white, is such a big deal. That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
I don't understand why you shouldn't just be allowed to immigrate as long as you have a clean criminal record. As it is, it is way to hard to immigrate legally into the United States.
My mom wasn't even a Canadian citizen until like last year.
On my dad's side, however, our ancestors have all been here since before Confederation, pure WASPs there.
And in general I am pro immigration. Fuck where I work at least a quarter of the people there weren't born in Canada. I can understand the sentiment that they should integrate somewhat, I mean you are entering Canada you should learn to speak French or English. But in my experience most immigrants I have seen do make that attempt. As Canadians we don't ask them to completely integrate culturally, thats what makes Canada great all the different cultures.
I don't understand why you shouldn't just be allowed to immigrate as long as you have a clean criminal record. As it is, it is way to hard to immigrate legally into the United States.
Not compared to many countries. INS (or whatever the fuck they're calling it now) needs a kick in the ass, but try Japan some time..
That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
I don't understand why you shouldn't just be allowed to immigrate as long as you have a clean criminal record. As it is, it is way to hard to immigrate legally into the United States.
Because it's much more difficult for employers to exploit legal immigrants.
That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
Tell it to the Native Americans.
Is that like two wrongs make a right? Being treated the way I mentioned is fine because another group of people were treated much much worse? Or do you mean that in the karma sense, like what goes around comes around? I can't think of any way to take your post that doesn't sound terribly stupid.
I think being treated like you're inferior based solely on culture and skin colour is always terrible, but your post makes it sound like because it happened before and was done by Canadians, the prejudice I deal with is fair.
For example, my family has lived in this neighborhood since its construction in the early 50's. In the past, when their kids were going to school here, they were actively involved in the community, and still are, but to a noticeably smaller degree. At first this place was filled with mostly European immigrants and people born in Canada with European, Asian, or - rarely - African ancestry. Business here was conducted in English, no exceptions, which worked fine for everyone. The neighborhood worked really well, and everyone communicated fine with very few exceptions.
Approximately 20 years ago the neighborhood started to welcome a lot of immigrants from other parts of the world. Why there was such an increase of people from the Middle-East and South Asia, I don't know. The noticeable difference between the first few decades my family lived here and now is that sometimes, walking around here, I stick out terribly. A large number of stores around here don't have english signs, and there are times when a clerk will have trouble understanding what I'm saying and I'll have to repeat myself more clearly next time. I've gone into restaurants around here and all the people around me are speaking anything but english, but that's never stopped me from noticing the pleasant tone a waiter's used with one customer change into a much more sour one when dealing with me. While I've never been to a country with customs too different than the ones practiced here, I sometimes feel like when I'm the guy in an elevator, restaurant or on the bus, and my clothes and hair stand out, that I've entered some foreign place.
Maybe we shouldn't sweat the small stuff, and yes, there are much bigger problems to deal with, but Werrick's discomfort is understandable. To stand out, to be the cultural minority in the place you and your parents were raised, is a strange problem I don't think many people here have had to deal with. I really don't see how asking newcomers to operate their businesses in one of Canada's two official languages, or not giving me a dirty look or denying me service because I don't share their cultural heritage or because I'm white, is such a big deal. That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
That's a horrible defense of bigotry. You are right, change is good. The only constant is change. If you got comfortable in a set way of doing things, then that lazy comfort and lack of dynamism is the moral wrong - the people showing up to change things are your god damned saviors.
Why is it "fucking terrible" that you be a minority as opposed to anyone else? What the hell is a minority anyway? We're all individuals as far as I'm concerned. If you're focusing on when you were or weren't a minority, then you are focusing the absolute wrong things in your life, and you deserve whatever unhappiness that causes you.
For example, my family has lived in this neighborhood since its construction in the early 50's. In the past, when their kids were going to school here, they were actively involved in the community, and still are, but to a noticeably smaller degree. At first this place was filled with mostly European immigrants and people born in Canada with European, Asian, or - rarely - African ancestry. Business here was conducted in English, no exceptions, which worked fine for everyone. The neighborhood worked really well, and everyone communicated fine with very few exceptions.
Approximately 20 years ago the neighborhood started to welcome a lot of immigrants from other parts of the world. Why there was such an increase of people from the Middle-East and South Asia, I don't know. The noticeable difference between the first few decades my family lived here and now is that sometimes, walking around here, I stick out terribly. A large number of stores around here don't have english signs, and there are times when a clerk will have trouble understanding what I'm saying and I'll have to repeat myself more clearly next time. I've gone into restaurants around here and all the people around me are speaking anything but english, but that's never stopped me from noticing the pleasant tone a waiter's used with one customer change into a much more sour one when dealing with me. While I've never been to a country with customs too different than the ones practiced here, I sometimes feel like when I'm the guy in an elevator, restaurant or on the bus, and my clothes and hair stand out, that I've entered some foreign place.
Maybe we shouldn't sweat the small stuff, and yes, there are much bigger problems to deal with, but Werrick's discomfort is understandable. To stand out, to be the cultural minority in the place you and your parents were raised, is a strange problem I don't think many people here have had to deal with. I really don't see how asking newcomers to operate their businesses in one of Canada's two official languages, or not giving me a dirty look or denying me service because I don't share their cultural heritage or because I'm white, is such a big deal. That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
That's a horrible defense of bigotry. You are right, change is good. The only constant is change. If you got comfortable in a set way of doing things, then that lazy comfort and lack of dynamism is the moral wrong - the people showing up to change things are your god damned saviors.
Why is it "fucking terrible" that you be a minority as opposed to anyone else? What the hell is a minority anyway? We're all individuals as far as I'm concerned. If you're focusing on when you were or weren't a minority, then you are focusing the absolute wrong things in your life, and you deserve whatever unhappiness that causes you.
But don't you see? He's pissed because he can just tell that the damned dirty immigrants working at the restaurants and such clearly don't like him because of his skin color or something.
Seriously, Fluffy (or whatever your name was before Tube got to you), did you completely miss the irony in your own post?
On a counterpoint with equally anecdotal evidence, at the local Chinese restaurant, which I'm almost certain is run by immigrants, all the waiters and such love my white ass because I'm a regular and a good tipper. But then, I don't immediately act like I'm better than them because I've been in my country longer and then on top of that expect them to treat me well just for the hell of it. I'm funny like that.
That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
Tell it to the Native Americans.
Is that like two wrongs make a right? Being treated the way I mentioned is fine because another group of people were treated much much worse? Or do you mean that in the karma sense, like what goes around comes around? I can't think of any way to take your post that doesn't sound terribly stupid.
I think being treated like you're inferior based solely on culture and skin colour is always terrible, but your post makes it sound like because it happened before and was done by Canadians, the prejudice I deal with is fair.
OK, flippant one-liners are never a good way to make a point. Let me rephrase:
Contrary to what you said, you weren't there first. You were there before some people, and after some other people. And what happened to the people who actually were there first really was fucking terrible. The prejudice you deal with may very well be unfair, but the scale of the unfairness involved in not understanding a shop sign or getting a dirty look from a waiter seems pretty bloody trivial compared with the nature and scale of the unfairness which produced the cultural dominance whose loss you now mourn.
That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
Tell it to the Native Americans.
Is that like two wrongs make a right? Being treated the way I mentioned is fine because another group of people were treated much much worse? Or do you mean that in the karma sense, like what goes around comes around? I can't think of any way to take your post that doesn't sound terribly stupid.
I think being treated like you're inferior based solely on culture and skin colour is always terrible, but your post makes it sound like because it happened before and was done by Canadians, the prejudice I deal with is fair.
OK, flippant one-liners are never a good way to make a point. Let me rephrase:
Contrary to what you said, you weren't there first. You were there before some people, and after some other people. And what happened to the people who actually were there first really was fucking terrible. The prejudice you deal with may very well be unfair, but the scale of the unfairness involved in not understanding a shop sign or getting a dirty look from a waiter seems pretty bloody trivial compared with the nature and scale of the unfairness which produced the cultural dominance whose loss you now mourn.
Ya, in the grand scheme of things, the discomfort I was talking about is pretty trivial. I didn't intend to sound like I thought it was a huge problem, just that it's a little strange and unfair.
That's a horrible defense of bigotry. You are right, change is good. The only constant is change. If you got comfortable in a set way of doing things, then that lazy comfort and lack of dynamism is the moral wrong - the people showing up to change things are your god damned saviors.
Why is it "fucking terrible" that you be a minority as opposed to anyone else? What the hell is a minority anyway? We're all individuals as far as I'm concerned. If you're focusing on when you were or weren't a minority, then you are focusing the absolute wrong things in your life, and you deserve whatever unhappiness that causes you.
You ignored what I said about being treated as unequal. The minority part isn't what's bad, it's the fact that I'm looked down upon because I don't share the same cultural heritage as some. And a minority is a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment. The differential treatment that I find problematic is prejudice, which is what I considered "fucking terrible."
But don't you see? He's pissed because he can just tell that the damned dirty immigrants working at the restaurants and such clearly don't like him because of his skin color or something.
Seriously, Fluffy (or whatever your name was before Tube got to you), did you completely miss the irony in your own post?
On a counterpoint with equally anecdotal evidence, at the local Chinese restaurant, which I'm almost certain is run by immigrants, all the waiters and such love my white ass because I'm a regular and a good tipper. But then, I don't immediately act like I'm better than them because I've been in my country longer and then on top of that expect them to treat me well just for the hell of it. I'm funny like that.
I don't act like I'm better and I don't expect better treatment. I think I'm equal and expect equal treatment. All I'm saying is that my family's put a lot into my community and now sometimes I'm treated like shit by people who've just moved in. In that way it doesn't matter that they're not from Canada; my problem is with feeling like an outsider in my home, and being treated poorly because I don't fit in. Also, I don't just assume every time I'm treated poorly that its a race or culture issue, there are just times when I've gotten the impression that's the reason, or in some circumstances it's been admitted to.
This isn't something I feel strongly about, I was only mentioning a discomfort. Wanting equal treatment, and expressing feelings of discomfort at standing out shouldn't be a bad thing. I treat everyone the same, and so I suppose I expect the same in return.
But you're starting from a position of prejudice. You don't treat everyone the same; you've made it really clear in your post that you resent people who don't fit your little definition of who "belongs" in your country, and so obviously they're not going to treat you as well as you'd like. I mean, right now you're either thinking "I only started disliking immigrants (or just people I assumed were immigrants because they didn't look or speak the way I did) after a few incidents of some random immigrant-looking sonufabitch treated me like crap", which is too stupid for me to even bother explaining, or "Well how would they know that I don't like them? I didn't do anything rude yet and they're still making me feel unwelcome!" which is probably not as true as you think it is.
But you're starting from a position of prejudice. You don't treat everyone the same; you've made it really clear in your post that you resent people who don't fit your little definition of who "belongs" in your country, and so obviously they're not going to treat you as well as you'd like. I mean, right now you're either thinking "I only started disliking immigrants (or just people I assumed were immigrants because they didn't look or speak the way I did) after a few incidents of some random immigrant-looking sonufabitch treated me like crap", which is too stupid for me to even bother explaining, or "Well how would they know that I don't like them? I didn't do anything rude yet and they're still making me feel unwelcome!" which is probably not as true as you think it is.
But I don't dislike immigrants. There has not been one single incident in my life where I have behaved or treated an immigrant in a way I wouldn't treat any other person. It's not like I approach every person I assume is foreign like they're a potential racist. You're trying to say that I'm provoking people into treating me unfairly by anticipating it, but I'm not. My situation is sort of like if someone were to build Chinatown around your home, and now you're in the middle of this insular community where some people are totally cool with you while some others treat you like you don't belong and should leave because you're not Chinese. All the while, you're just trying to catch your bearings because your whole world just changed and now you don't know what's going on, plus according to some you're not welcome anymore.
You're blaming me for people treating me poorly because of my culture, and I'm not just talking about dirty looks and poor service.
Many of my friends are from different parts of the world, and one's parents think I smoke pot simply because I'm white and another's father made fun of me to my face in Chinese, only for my friend to translate later. The only people I dislike, I dislike due to their actions, not because of assumptions. The people who operate businesses in ways that don't facilitate the english speaking I don't resent; those places I avoid, and I resent the fact I can't access half of my community due to a language barrier I feel could be avoided.
So yes, I resent people who build, or make no attempts, to break down cultural barriers. On my part I've spoken with my friends from Guyana, India, and China about their cultures to gain some understanding. I've always had plenty of neighbors new to the country who I talk with and the odd time we talk about our cultures - differences and similarities. I think barriers would be brought down if businesses advertised and operated in languages everyone can understand, because that type of isolationist attitude only powers prejudice. If you could suggest something that I might do to further break down barriers, aside from learning the dozens of languages spoken in Toronto, I'd appreciate it lots. I'd also really like to know what experience I can bring up that might convince you I'm not just some bigot and that insular communities built over smaller communities might have a few downsides.
I'd also really like to know what experience I can bring up that might convince you I'm not just some bigot and that insular communities built over smaller communities might have a few downsides.
You cant, your white so your a racist. Any attempt to convince anyone your not a racist makes you a racist. If someone uses a racial or ethnic slur against you and you respond in any way, your a racist. If you use an ethnic slur your a racist. If you protest getting treated worse than other customers, your a racist. If you protest that the neighborhood you used to live in is different because of immigration, your a racist.
Posts
Hahaha. Strengthening our chops by pretending to be a non-white conservative.
Don't you see? All along, we were really the racist ones.
My point is: you're a Canadian Jew. I don't know if you can get any whiter.
Also, who said Spaniards aren't white? Unless you're talking about the Moors, you also fail.
The notSpanish are kind of pallid, I think they still count as white.
The Irish woman sounded nice and all, but I couldn't understand a goddamn word she said.
I'm an Irish-Catholic guy from the suburbs. I'm so white I cause glare in flash photography.
If they were only worried about the property damage & related issues, they could advocate for the level of legal immigration from Mexico to be increased to the point where illegal immigration would no longer be attractive. i.e., the same number of people would be coming in, but they could do it openly, just catching a regular bus. I'm happy to agree that any minuteman who accepts this solution to the problem of illegal immigration isn't racist.
Arizona Showdown
spoilered for length
Ah, I so love the "you have to agree with all my ideas or you're racist" line of argument.
Seriously, look at Zalbinion's post. If you want to prove something, THAT is the way to do it.
This is my father. He was born and raised in Beirut. That whole side of the family still lives in Lebanon, and are about as Arabic as it gets.
This is me. My mother's sunburn emboldening genes dominated my father's olive skinned ones, and here my pasty ass stands.
So what am I? Am I white? Arabic? Either way I'm technically Caucasian, but as far as layman's classifications go, what would I be?
In the grand scheme of things, it's all moot, but still.
In that picture? Totally white. Like as white as it gets. Super white. Like, even if your skin was pitch black your ass would still be white. ;-)
But you've got a point. It's often somewhat arbitrary. I think here the issue was that Tostitos did (and in other threads has) sound like the stereotypical "angry conservative white guy." He was only using vague claims of "not really white"-ness as a lame attempt to defend against this accusation. I think for some of the more ambiguous cases (such as yours) it depends on what culture you identify with...both personally and through your actions.
Tostitos might be able to get away with claiming to be vaguely ethnic, and thus not "really" white, if he didn't seem to identify absolutely (through his actions) with "angry white conservative guy" culture. But if you physically pass for white, and you act white as a motherfucker...yeah.
Though really issues of race/ethnicity are a bit more complicated than this post would even begin to suggest. But for the sake of this thread, Tostito's "yeah, I'm totally not white" claim was pretty much a farce. Especially combined with some of the other bullshit that came along with it (like the whole "get a job" thing).
Really, though, you want to try to 'pass' for the race that will get you the most benefit out of life. Depending on where you are in the world, racial hierarchy varies. Parentage is a weird rule to follow - I was watching a documentary last week on how mixed races in California's Chinatown have it hard from both sides and can't fit in anywhere. Go figure.
*goes back to watching A Family Thing*
Nowadays. Decades ago, it used to be only WASPs at the top of the heap in America. Before that, the Irish, the Polish, and the Ukranians weren't considered white even if they were paler than the president at the time.
Link
"No man it's cool that I say racist shit - I'm a Jew"
They don't even have an "other" for us mutts.
tWill: seriously
As far as your ethnicity, it's all up to your heritage and how you grew up. There is no white ethnicity, there are various european ethnicities and they are all generally pale to varying degrees, but Germans are a hell of a lot different from Italians and they're both worlds away from Americans, etc. Same with Arabians and Persians and North Africans, and you could break it down even further if you wanted. Religion can get thrown in there too since it has a good impact on your societal interactions. None of that has any relevance to how brown/black/white/yellow you are.
Actually, I don't think that "you have to agree with all my ideas or be racist". The point is that Tostitos was saying that we should allow for the possibility that the Minutemen weren't racist at all, merely reacting to other problems caused by illegal immigration that had nothing to do with race.
Well, how do you test a claim like this? One way is to come up with a solution or rather a hypothetical "solution" which takes care of the specific non-race-related problems that he mentions, without changing the racial element of the situation (to which he says they may have no objection) and then asking if this would be OK with the Minutemen. If it really is the case that these claims about property damage and drug smuggling are not being used as excuses to cover up a racist agenda, if they really are the heart of the issue, then such a solution ought to be acceptable to them.
For evidence that the Minutemen are indeed racist for the most part, please see the following:
Southern Poverty Law Center article "Arizona Showdown"
SPLC article "Blunt Force"
Automatic Writing (blog by journalist) on Greensboro, NC's experience with Minutemen and racism
MediaMatters.org, pointing out Jim Gilchrist's connections to white supremacist groups
Are all Minutemen racist? Probably not. Are most? Apparently, and racism seems to be their primary motivating force.
Shit, I'm a quarter Italian, and the Italian part is from southern Italy, so that makes me black, right?
The bottom line is that if you and another person need to communicate, then you just have to work it out, and ultimately the burden will fall on whomever needs it the most. That's why natives of my country who work in industries with a lot of low-skilled labor end up teaching themselves Spanish. It's a helluva lot easier than wishing everyone would speak English, and cheaper than paying everyone to be bilingual.
If not being able to understand them really bothers you so much, then the solution is to learn their language. Then you can understand them and you won't be bothered anymore. Or, if you don't want to do that, then figure out how to get over your petty bigotries and maybe it won't bother you. These people have taken nothing from you and owe you nothing. If they want to learn your language, that's up to them. Your idea that "this is my country, they should have to learn my language, " etc., is just emotional bullshit.
I'm actually part lebanese as well, although it mostly seems to be just for the food.
And part Scottish, German, Anglo-Sexy, and probably a wee bit of negro as well. Black and white pictures can be hard to distinguish sometimes.
I just found out I was part Cherokee this past spring when my mother finally got to meet her bio-father.
As for being involved with the culture... does serving booze to natives count? That seems to be most of the culture thats left. That and lotto machines.
I'm white, but technically not anglo-saxon (Celt>50%).
I think it's more an issue of comfort.
For example, my family has lived in this neighborhood since its construction in the early 50's. In the past, when their kids were going to school here, they were actively involved in the community, and still are, but to a noticeably smaller degree. At first this place was filled with mostly European immigrants and people born in Canada with European, Asian, or - rarely - African ancestry. Business here was conducted in English, no exceptions, which worked fine for everyone. The neighborhood worked really well, and everyone communicated fine with very few exceptions.
Approximately 20 years ago the neighborhood started to welcome a lot of immigrants from other parts of the world. Why there was such an increase of people from the Middle-East and South Asia, I don't know. The noticeable difference between the first few decades my family lived here and now is that sometimes, walking around here, I stick out terribly. A large number of stores around here don't have english signs, and there are times when a clerk will have trouble understanding what I'm saying and I'll have to repeat myself more clearly next time. I've gone into restaurants around here and all the people around me are speaking anything but english, but that's never stopped me from noticing the pleasant tone a waiter's used with one customer change into a much more sour one when dealing with me. While I've never been to a country with customs too different than the ones practiced here, I sometimes feel like when I'm the guy in an elevator, restaurant or on the bus, and my clothes and hair stand out, that I've entered some foreign place.
Maybe we shouldn't sweat the small stuff, and yes, there are much bigger problems to deal with, but Werrick's discomfort is understandable. To stand out, to be the cultural minority in the place you and your parents were raised, is a strange problem I don't think many people here have had to deal with. I really don't see how asking newcomers to operate their businesses in one of Canada's two official languages, or not giving me a dirty look or denying me service because I don't share their cultural heritage or because I'm white, is such a big deal. That I was here first is only relevant in the sense that there was a way of doing things established here already, and that way has been disturbed. Which is fine, change is good, but part of that change, apparently, is that people like me are now an unequal minority, and that's fucking terrible.
On my dad's side, however, our ancestors have all been here since before Confederation, pure WASPs there.
And in general I am pro immigration. Fuck where I work at least a quarter of the people there weren't born in Canada. I can understand the sentiment that they should integrate somewhat, I mean you are entering Canada you should learn to speak French or English. But in my experience most immigrants I have seen do make that attempt. As Canadians we don't ask them to completely integrate culturally, thats what makes Canada great all the different cultures.
Not compared to many countries. INS (or whatever the fuck they're calling it now) needs a kick in the ass, but try Japan some time..
Tell it to the Native Americans.
Because it's much more difficult for employers to exploit legal immigrants.
Is that like two wrongs make a right? Being treated the way I mentioned is fine because another group of people were treated much much worse? Or do you mean that in the karma sense, like what goes around comes around? I can't think of any way to take your post that doesn't sound terribly stupid.
I think being treated like you're inferior based solely on culture and skin colour is always terrible, but your post makes it sound like because it happened before and was done by Canadians, the prejudice I deal with is fair.
Why is it "fucking terrible" that you be a minority as opposed to anyone else? What the hell is a minority anyway? We're all individuals as far as I'm concerned. If you're focusing on when you were or weren't a minority, then you are focusing the absolute wrong things in your life, and you deserve whatever unhappiness that causes you.
But don't you see? He's pissed because he can just tell that the damned dirty immigrants working at the restaurants and such clearly don't like him because of his skin color or something.
Seriously, Fluffy (or whatever your name was before Tube got to you), did you completely miss the irony in your own post?
On a counterpoint with equally anecdotal evidence, at the local Chinese restaurant, which I'm almost certain is run by immigrants, all the waiters and such love my white ass because I'm a regular and a good tipper. But then, I don't immediately act like I'm better than them because I've been in my country longer and then on top of that expect them to treat me well just for the hell of it. I'm funny like that.
OK, flippant one-liners are never a good way to make a point. Let me rephrase:
Contrary to what you said, you weren't there first. You were there before some people, and after some other people. And what happened to the people who actually were there first really was fucking terrible. The prejudice you deal with may very well be unfair, but the scale of the unfairness involved in not understanding a shop sign or getting a dirty look from a waiter seems pretty bloody trivial compared with the nature and scale of the unfairness which produced the cultural dominance whose loss you now mourn.
Ya, in the grand scheme of things, the discomfort I was talking about is pretty trivial. I didn't intend to sound like I thought it was a huge problem, just that it's a little strange and unfair.
You ignored what I said about being treated as unequal. The minority part isn't what's bad, it's the fact that I'm looked down upon because I don't share the same cultural heritage as some. And a minority is a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment. The differential treatment that I find problematic is prejudice, which is what I considered "fucking terrible."
I don't act like I'm better and I don't expect better treatment. I think I'm equal and expect equal treatment. All I'm saying is that my family's put a lot into my community and now sometimes I'm treated like shit by people who've just moved in. In that way it doesn't matter that they're not from Canada; my problem is with feeling like an outsider in my home, and being treated poorly because I don't fit in. Also, I don't just assume every time I'm treated poorly that its a race or culture issue, there are just times when I've gotten the impression that's the reason, or in some circumstances it's been admitted to.
This isn't something I feel strongly about, I was only mentioning a discomfort. Wanting equal treatment, and expressing feelings of discomfort at standing out shouldn't be a bad thing. I treat everyone the same, and so I suppose I expect the same in return.
But I don't dislike immigrants. There has not been one single incident in my life where I have behaved or treated an immigrant in a way I wouldn't treat any other person. It's not like I approach every person I assume is foreign like they're a potential racist. You're trying to say that I'm provoking people into treating me unfairly by anticipating it, but I'm not. My situation is sort of like if someone were to build Chinatown around your home, and now you're in the middle of this insular community where some people are totally cool with you while some others treat you like you don't belong and should leave because you're not Chinese. All the while, you're just trying to catch your bearings because your whole world just changed and now you don't know what's going on, plus according to some you're not welcome anymore.
You're blaming me for people treating me poorly because of my culture, and I'm not just talking about dirty looks and poor service.
Many of my friends are from different parts of the world, and one's parents think I smoke pot simply because I'm white and another's father made fun of me to my face in Chinese, only for my friend to translate later. The only people I dislike, I dislike due to their actions, not because of assumptions. The people who operate businesses in ways that don't facilitate the english speaking I don't resent; those places I avoid, and I resent the fact I can't access half of my community due to a language barrier I feel could be avoided.
So yes, I resent people who build, or make no attempts, to break down cultural barriers. On my part I've spoken with my friends from Guyana, India, and China about their cultures to gain some understanding. I've always had plenty of neighbors new to the country who I talk with and the odd time we talk about our cultures - differences and similarities. I think barriers would be brought down if businesses advertised and operated in languages everyone can understand, because that type of isolationist attitude only powers prejudice. If you could suggest something that I might do to further break down barriers, aside from learning the dozens of languages spoken in Toronto, I'd appreciate it lots. I'd also really like to know what experience I can bring up that might convince you I'm not just some bigot and that insular communities built over smaller communities might have a few downsides.
And I agree with Daedalus, I get treated better at a Japanese resturant because I don't expect anything because I am white or something.
I don't quite think that Fluffy is or ever will treat people right because of his sense of being his community.
You cant, your white so your a racist. Any attempt to convince anyone your not a racist makes you a racist. If someone uses a racial or ethnic slur against you and you respond in any way, your a racist. If you use an ethnic slur your a racist. If you protest getting treated worse than other customers, your a racist. If you protest that the neighborhood you used to live in is different because of immigration, your a racist.
Here i brought a clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHiSsf5-EDE