I'm not even going to read this thread, but if anyone says that we shouldn't read Shakespeare, you are the stupidest fuck ever, a complete insult to evolution, and probably a complete bore to boot.
and you probably put a playwriter from Elizabethan England a little too far up on his pedestal.
Just sayin'.
Shakespeare is the GREATEST writer of the English language, and, try me - I'm a pretty precocious little fuck.
He is one of the supreme metricists writing in any language, in metaphors, he is only surpassed by Dante in terms of polysemy, he is THE most important singe force in the formation of modern English, he is incredibly entertaining, and has published some of the most moving and provoking works known to man. Hamlet is the paradigm for all writers.
Do you want to talk about the Elizabethan period? Please, lets do. Ben Johnson is also one of the greats from that period. Do you know what he did? He used stock characters.
edit* Hacks: of course, though you really need to read it to fully appreaciate.
As somebody who hopes to get into Early Modern Drama: yes, Shakespeare ought to remain in schools.
You mentioned Eliot. Would Eliot have the same impact if you didn't understand (or even sense) the allusions he makes to the authors like Shakespeare before him? Literature, in my estimation, is just as much about looking back at the past as it is criticizing the present and predicting the future. Certainly at this point a lot of people talk about Shakespeare in that 'O,O,O,O, That Shakespearean Rag' sense, but certainly we cannot simply forget about an author who is almost undoubtedly the biggest influence on the formation of the English language?
He created his own words!
If I remember correctly, the word stealth did not exist before Shakespeare.
There are earlier instances of 'stealth' but it seems he coined the "intelligent thief" definition of the word. He coined "assassin" as well (or appropriated it from latin), as well. Also, like, 1700 other words including "puking."
edit* Hacks: of course, though you really need to read it to fully appreaciate.
Certainly, to appriciate the writing. The same goes for a Charlie Kaufman screenplay. But no man should ever make the mistake of relegating Shakespeare to words on a page when it's so much more than that.
Of course... there's nothing inherently wrong with being a bastard.
Unforgiven on
"I know you have come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man."
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
Something I've always wondered - most of us are from the Western world, and Shakespeare is considered one of our culture's greatest historical authors. Does he have equivalents in other cultures? Like famous playwrights from asia or africa or the middle east that just don't get mentioned in Western society?
edit* Hacks: of course, though you really need to read it to fully appreaciate.
Certainly, to appriciate the writing. The same goes for a Charlie Kaufman screenplay. But no man should ever make the mistake of relegating Shakespeare to words on a page when it's so much more than that.
I don't know that you really need to visually process words on a page to appreciate Shakespeare, since the plays were designed to be seen and heard, and not so much read; though it is far easier to analyze and study in written rather than oral form. For me, the greatness of Shakespeare comes from the musicality of the language (sounds cheesy, I know). Just something about his usage of words, rhythms, and phonemes makes his writing expressive on a much deeper level than almost any other author I can think of.
IreneDAdler on
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Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
Something I've always wondered - most of us are from the Western world, and Shakespeare is considered one of our culture's greatest historical authors. Does he have equivalents in other cultures? Like famous playwrights from asia or africa or the middle east that just don't get mentioned in Western society?
Take it even further. How many plays by Moliere have you read, or the latest novel by Houllebeque. Languages have their own sensations and poet laureates which will never be as popular in foreign languages.
edit* Hacks: of course, though you really need to read it to fully appreaciate.
Certainly, to appriciate the writing. The same goes for a Charlie Kaufman screenplay. But no man should ever make the mistake of relegating Shakespeare to words on a page when it's so much more than that.
I don't know that you really need to visually process words on a page to appreciate Shakespeare, since the plays were designed to be seen and heard, and not so much read; though it is far easier to analyze and study in written rather than oral form. For me, the greatness of Shakespeare comes from the musicality of the language (sounds cheesy, I know). Just something about his usage of words, rhythms, and phonemes makes his writing expressive on a much deeper level than almost any other author I can think of.
I have to say you aren't the only one with that.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Something I've always wondered - most of us are from the Western world, and Shakespeare is considered one of our culture's greatest historical authors. Does he have equivalents in other cultures? Like famous playwrights from asia or africa or the middle east that just don't get mentioned in Western society?
Take it even further. How many plays by Moliere have you read, or the latest novel by Houllebeque. Languages have their own sensations and poet laureates which will never be as popular in foreign languages.
I actually acted out the Imaginary Invalid in Highschool in the lead, thats a great play. Anyone here a fan of Robert Pinksy (not technically a play guy but you did mention poet laureates).
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Anyone here a fan of Robert Pinksy (not technically a play guy but you did mention poet laureates).
I've had a conversation with him. He's a giant, GIANT prick and his translation of Dante sucks, though his book the sounds of Poetry is actually a really good introduction to reading poetry.
Well I mainly just like his Poetry, what I saw of him I figure he's a bit of an asshole. Even his poetry comes off assholish, which is probably why I like it. Hmmm maybe I should report back to the chivalry thread and mention I am an ass.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Something I've always wondered - most of us are from the Western world, and Shakespeare is considered one of our culture's greatest historical authors. Does he have equivalents in other cultures? Like famous playwrights from asia or africa or the middle east that just don't get mentioned in Western society?
Journey to the West, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, Anansi tales, and a condensed version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms ... besides these and musings by Chief Joseph, what would be suitable for a high school classroom?
Tradition? It's tradition because the stories are complex, interesting and provide insight into a different time period.
Are you serious?
Really?
Everyone should read "Hamlet" and "Merchant of Venice" or any other work of Shakespeare.
All these contemporary authors learned from Shakespeare. It's the root of most literature.
Also, The Sound and The Fury's title (redundant, I know) was taken from Macbeth.
Truth.
People don't read/teach Shakespeare just because it's old and famous. They read/teach him because he is easily one of the best, if not the best person to ever write in our English.
Avoiding 'outdated vocabularies' and stuff just breeds ignorance. It's like saying 'why do we learn about history? It's old and stuff.'
Also, I'm glad someone mentioned the Sound and Fury thing.
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
...he literally invented dozens of words and phrases that are still used today, and the vast majority of people who use them have no idea where they even came from.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
...he literally invented dozens of words and phrases that are still used today, and the vast majority of people who use them have no idea where they even came from.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
So what?
It's only English.
Unforgiven on
"I know you have come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man."
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Something I've always wondered - most of us are from the Western world, and Shakespeare is considered one of our culture's greatest historical authors. Does he have equivalents in other cultures? Like famous playwrights from asia or africa or the middle east that just don't get mentioned in Western society?
Journey to the West, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, Anansi tales, and a condensed version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms ... besides these and musings by Chief Joseph, what would be suitable for a high school classroom?
Kalidasa is a pretty seminal indian poet. Ditto for Rumi in Persian.
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
...he literally invented dozens of words and phrases that are still used today, and the vast majority of people who use them have no idea where they even came from.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
So what?
It's only English.
...what?
I can't decide if you're being completely and stupidly ridiculous in saying that the history and evolution of the English language is unimportant, or if you're trying to say that there are lots of other languages whose histories have just as much value as English?
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
...he literally invented dozens of words and phrases that are still used today, and the vast majority of people who use them have no idea where they even came from.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
So what?
It's only English.
I really enjoy his language.
But then, I can't seem to agree with ege02 on anything these days.
Shinto on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
...he literally invented dozens of words and phrases that are still used today, and the vast majority of people who use them have no idea where they even came from.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
So what?
It's only English.
...what?
I can't decide if you're being completely and stupidly ridiculous in saying that the history and evolution of the English language is unimportant, or if you're trying to say that there are lots of other languages whose histories have just as much value as English?
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
...he literally invented dozens of words and phrases that are still used today, and the vast majority of people who use them have no idea where they even came from.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
You don't need to study Shakespeare to learn the words he introduced to the English language.
Gloucester: Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;
And all the clouds that lowered upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths,
Our bruised arms hung up for monuments,
Our stern alarums changed to merry meetings,
Our dreadful marches to delightful measures.
Grim-visaged war hath smoothed his wrinkled front,
And now, instead of mounting barbed steeds
To fright the souls of fearful adversaries,
He capers nimbly in a lady's chamber
To the lascivious pleasing of a lute.
But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamped, and want love's majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
I, that am curtailed of this fair proportion,
Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
Deformed, unfinished, sent before my time
Into this breathing world scarce half made up,
And that so lamely and unfashionable
That dogs bark at me as I halt by them -
Why I, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy my shadow in the sun
And descant on mine own deformity.
And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have I laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels, and dreams,
To set my brother Clarence and the king
In deadly hate the one against the other;
And if King Edward be as true and just
As I am subtle, false, and treacherous,
This day should Clarence closely be mewed up
About a prophecy which says that
Of Edward's heirs the murderer shall be.
Dive, thoughts, down to my soul - here Clarence comes!
Shakespeare isn't as valuable for his literature as much as for his social observations and commentaries. I think he's worth checking out, but not in the "necessary" category.
...he literally invented dozens of words and phrases that are still used today, and the vast majority of people who use them have no idea where they even came from.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
You don't need to study Shakespeare to learn the words he introduced to the English language.
You probably do in order to appreciate them, though...
One of my pet peeves is how people misquote the first line to mean "This present period is our winter of discontent PERIOD."
That is my pet peeve also!
Let's be best friends and build tree forts and shoot sling shots at girls.
Can I come?
Also, ege, yes, you kind of DO have to study Shakespeare to learn the meanings of the words he created. Because in time, colloquial use of them will start to distance them from their real meanings, and distort them, and then everyone is going to be shouting WERE U AT to each other and everyone is going to be creaming their pants over the next fucking Dan Brown novel.
It's like in Politics and the English Language, people start using words without knowing where they are coming from, so these canned phrases like 'toe the line' get presented as 'tow the line', which doesn't even fucking mean anything, and the entire language decays because nobody bothers learning anything RIGHT the first time.
And if you don't appreciate the beauty of Shakespeare's language, I can't criticise you for it, but I think it's upsetting.
One of my pet peeves is how people misquote the first line to mean "This present period is our winter of discontent PERIOD."
That is my pet peeve also!
Let's be best friends and build tree forts and shoot sling shots at girls.
I am flattered by the first part of your proposal but I must unfortunately decline since, as a possessor of 2 X chromosomes, I take umbrage at the second part of your proposal.
One of my pet peeves is how people misquote the first line to mean "This present period is our winter of discontent PERIOD."
That is my pet peeve also!
Let's be best friends and build tree forts and shoot sling shots at girls.
I am flattered by the first part of your proposal but I must unfortunately decline since, as a possessor of 2 X chromosomes, I take umbrage at the second part of your proposal.
Also, ege, yes, you kind of DO have to study Shakespeare to learn the meanings of the words he created. Because in time, colloquial use of them will start to distance them from their real meanings, and distort them, and then everyone is going to be shouting WERE U AT to each other and everyone is going to be creaming their pants over the next fucking Dan Brown novel.
It's like in Politics and the English Language, people start using words without knowing where they are coming from, so these canned phrases like 'toe the line' get presented as 'tow the line', which doesn't even fucking mean anything, and the entire language decays because nobody bothers learning anything RIGHT the first time.
While you touch on many of my pet peeves with the ignorant masses ("Where U at" makes me want to punch babies), I have to play devil's advocate and say, that is part of the evolution of language. Take "Goodbye" for example. It's some meaningless phrase we say to each other during parting. I think it's a severely bastardized version of "God be with ye" from centuries ago. Sure, it's kinda nice to know that, but does it really affect the usage of "Goodbye?" As someone mentioned earlier, the most important thing about language is for people to understand what you mean, and etymology isn't always essential to that function.
Anyway, I do agree that Shakespeare is like verbal sex (one of my favorite movie scenes ever is that love scene in Shakespeare in Love where Ralph Fiennes (yum!) and Gwyneth Paltrow are reciting lines out of Romeo and Juliet while making love), and it makes me sad for their soul when people tell me they don't like Shakespeare.
I agree with Irene (I guess that makes me the "devil" here). What you described, snork, is the natural evolution of language. You can't expect people to stick to the original meanings of the words; these things change over time.
Also, I like your implied assumption that not liking Shakespeare automatically leads to WERE U AT. If you're going to blame something for that phenomenon, blame the Internet and SMS culture.
I'm not trying to put down Shakespeare's contributions to the English language. I'm simply disagreeing with the claims that studying Shakespeare is necessary to appreciate the language, and that making it mandatory for high school students to learn about Shakespeare in English lit is the best way, or the best time, to make them appreciate him.
I hated Shakespeare as at school.. despised it, it was worthless and a pointless waste of my class time.. we studied Romeo and Juliet, as well as Hamlet and Othello.
And then I woke the hell up and realized what a bloody moron I was.. Shakespeare has to be one of the greatest influences on English speaking authors and playwrites of all time.. not only that, but his works themselves are fantastic, varied and deal with some of the most important themes of all... themes we keep coming back to in our own movies, books and even video games. Romance, comedy, tragedy, forbidden love, death, war, betrayal, deceit, heroism... thats just a few things you see in action while studying his works. He is also referenced, constantly, in modern society in some really unexpected places. If you bother studying him, I think you start to realise how many much influence he has had in our culture.
As for learning similar things from other cultures.. I'd be up for it.. but I believe you need to know your own culture before you can properly appreciate other people's.. besides, ours is just as valid as theirs.
Nexelau on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Posts
Shakespeare is the GREATEST writer of the English language, and, try me - I'm a pretty precocious little fuck.
He is one of the supreme metricists writing in any language, in metaphors, he is only surpassed by Dante in terms of polysemy, he is THE most important singe force in the formation of modern English, he is incredibly entertaining, and has published some of the most moving and provoking works known to man. Hamlet is the paradigm for all writers.
Do you want to talk about the Elizabethan period? Please, lets do. Ben Johnson is also one of the greats from that period. Do you know what he did? He used stock characters.
edit* Hacks: of course, though you really need to read it to fully appreaciate.
Assassin comes from this word:
Hashshashin
Shakespeare didn't coin, he bastardized.
As far as someone mentioning Joyce over Shakespere die in a black hole of boring!
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't know that you really need to visually process words on a page to appreciate Shakespeare, since the plays were designed to be seen and heard, and not so much read; though it is far easier to analyze and study in written rather than oral form. For me, the greatness of Shakespeare comes from the musicality of the language (sounds cheesy, I know). Just something about his usage of words, rhythms, and phonemes makes his writing expressive on a much deeper level than almost any other author I can think of.
Take it even further. How many plays by Moliere have you read, or the latest novel by Houllebeque. Languages have their own sensations and poet laureates which will never be as popular in foreign languages.
I have to say you aren't the only one with that.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I actually acted out the Imaginary Invalid in Highschool in the lead, thats a great play. Anyone here a fan of Robert Pinksy (not technically a play guy but you did mention poet laureates).
pleasepaypreacher.net
I've had a conversation with him. He's a giant, GIANT prick and his translation of Dante sucks, though his book the sounds of Poetry is actually a really good introduction to reading poetry.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Journey to the West, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, Anansi tales, and a condensed version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms ... besides these and musings by Chief Joseph, what would be suitable for a high school classroom?
People don't read/teach Shakespeare just because it's old and famous. They read/teach him because he is easily one of the best, if not the best person to ever write in our English.
Avoiding 'outdated vocabularies' and stuff just breeds ignorance. It's like saying 'why do we learn about history? It's old and stuff.'
Also, I'm glad someone mentioned the Sound and Fury thing.
Did you guys all just have really shitty English teachers or something?
The exact opposite of your post is closer to the truth. The value of the literature still endures, while social commentary is strongly tied to the age it was written in, and for Shakespeare that is the 16th and 17th centuries. I mean yeah, it's still relevant, but it is far from the most valuable aspect of his work.
So what?
It's only English.
Kalidasa is a pretty seminal indian poet. Ditto for Rumi in Persian.
...what?
I can't decide if you're being completely and stupidly ridiculous in saying that the history and evolution of the English language is unimportant, or if you're trying to say that there are lots of other languages whose histories have just as much value as English?
I really enjoy his language.
But then, I can't seem to agree with ege02 on anything these days.
I think he's joking.
You don't need to study Shakespeare to learn the words he introduced to the English language.
Come on now guys. That is just fucking awesome.
One of my pet peeves is how people misquote the first line to mean "This present period is our winter of discontent PERIOD."
You probably do in order to appreciate them, though...
That is my pet peeve also!
Let's be best friends and build tree forts and shoot sling shots at girls.
Can I come?
Also, ege, yes, you kind of DO have to study Shakespeare to learn the meanings of the words he created. Because in time, colloquial use of them will start to distance them from their real meanings, and distort them, and then everyone is going to be shouting WERE U AT to each other and everyone is going to be creaming their pants over the next fucking Dan Brown novel.
It's like in Politics and the English Language, people start using words without knowing where they are coming from, so these canned phrases like 'toe the line' get presented as 'tow the line', which doesn't even fucking mean anything, and the entire language decays because nobody bothers learning anything RIGHT the first time.
And if you don't appreciate the beauty of Shakespeare's language, I can't criticise you for it, but I think it's upsetting.
I am flattered by the first part of your proposal but I must unfortunately decline since, as a possessor of 2 X chromosomes, I take umbrage at the second part of your proposal.
Ridiculous. Everyone knows girls can't read.
While you touch on many of my pet peeves with the ignorant masses ("Where U at" makes me want to punch babies), I have to play devil's advocate and say, that is part of the evolution of language. Take "Goodbye" for example. It's some meaningless phrase we say to each other during parting. I think it's a severely bastardized version of "God be with ye" from centuries ago. Sure, it's kinda nice to know that, but does it really affect the usage of "Goodbye?" As someone mentioned earlier, the most important thing about language is for people to understand what you mean, and etymology isn't always essential to that function.
Anyway, I do agree that Shakespeare is like verbal sex (one of my favorite movie scenes ever is that love scene in Shakespeare in Love where Ralph Fiennes (yum!) and Gwyneth Paltrow are reciting lines out of Romeo and Juliet while making love), and it makes me sad for their soul when people tell me they don't like Shakespeare.
Also, I like your implied assumption that not liking Shakespeare automatically leads to WERE U AT. If you're going to blame something for that phenomenon, blame the Internet and SMS culture.
I'm not trying to put down Shakespeare's contributions to the English language. I'm simply disagreeing with the claims that studying Shakespeare is necessary to appreciate the language, and that making it mandatory for high school students to learn about Shakespeare in English lit is the best way, or the best time, to make them appreciate him.
Hmm. Interesting.
I hate the Kenneth Branagh version of Hamlet, but I seem to be in a minority there. Prey tell, why dost thou dislikest his version?
I personally hate the coloring used and the suggestion that Ophelia and Hamlet slept together at any point.
And then I woke the hell up and realized what a bloody moron I was.. Shakespeare has to be one of the greatest influences on English speaking authors and playwrites of all time.. not only that, but his works themselves are fantastic, varied and deal with some of the most important themes of all... themes we keep coming back to in our own movies, books and even video games. Romance, comedy, tragedy, forbidden love, death, war, betrayal, deceit, heroism... thats just a few things you see in action while studying his works. He is also referenced, constantly, in modern society in some really unexpected places. If you bother studying him, I think you start to realise how many much influence he has had in our culture.
As for learning similar things from other cultures.. I'd be up for it.. but I believe you need to know your own culture before you can properly appreciate other people's.. besides, ours is just as valid as theirs.