They seem to bypass the shielded section to hit modules / weapons on unshielded sections behind it.
It seems shields work because they protect the section they are active on, and negate damage. The AI seems to target shielded sections first. TH15 says he fixed the 'target closest section' issue, but i have run up against a number of times that I was 90 degrees to the enemy ship, and I *still* shot at the shielded part, rather then the unshielded length.
maybe narrowing the range of motion from 180 degrees max like i keep it at would help this.. but its damn annoying and frustrating!
I'm not entirely sure what it is, but either the point beams or particle gun is causing massive damage and going right through shields. Roundboy, can you explain exactly how it works? I did some tests earlier but could only get it to reproduce the effects when both were on the same ship. O_o
My theory right now is that when one of those PD guns is intercepting fire, it can deal damage to whatever is underneath the intercepted shot. Massive amounts of damage.
Demeter Pod launchers are insane in groups of 4 or more.
insane.
That aside, there needs to be more flexible limits so that the typical 100-point tournament isn't what the point values are based off.
So here's how I'd do it- add specific requirements for the "pariah" modules and weapons.
Demeter Pod launcher- only available to ships with 100 points or more, and they can fit 2- for every additional 50 points, you can add another Pod launcher. They're just too damn bulky to fit on small ships.
Gravbeam- requires 6 sections per, otherwise structural integrity is compromised by the gravitic distortions. You may only fit one of these per 50 points on a ship.
Point beam- must not be mounted on a ship with AI range 400 or less, or the sensors go wild and they don't function.
Platform Fabricator- such a large construction module must be fitted as a hangar within the ship. It must only touch the section it is attached to, and no section/module/weapon can overlap it.
Frosch Gun- charged by electrostatic energy, it is useless on any ship with less than base 1 speed. You may fit extras at 3, 6, and 10 speed.
Nanomatrix- Don't cross the streams. No nanomatrix can be in range of another nanomatrix during construction, and every nanomatrix needs at least 100pts of ship to work on as a cautionary measure.
Dieterling device- stores momentum and converts it to spacial distortions. For a ship costing 100pts or less, you may fit 1 per 2 speed. 200pts, 1 per 1 speed. 400pts, 1 per 0.5 speed.
Aegis deflectors- highly unstable alien technology- must be mounted on the outer edge of the ship to avoid the instability becoming a liability.
On my ship I posted way back when, I had 3 point beams... I *think* that they are the only (or maybe particle beams) that the AI will automatically use for offense as well as defense.
Flak will work too, but it must be manually targeted, or i was never in THAT close to a ship.. Either way, what I saw was that when I closed to point beam range, the 3 would fire and immediately blow off a section - even ageis protected ones.
maybe it was because i was up against a ship with railguns, but the PB were not tied up with other projectiles. The other drawback was that even though my front was shielded.. the railguns would shoot around it, and target the beams directly. Usually they were gone by the time i closed.
Let me see if I can run a quick video to show it.. I might not be able to get it to work here, but I can tonight.
I couldnt replicate your results with your point defense ship (my entry for the last tournament actually beat it) But i have seen ships not use modules or weapons before, so it might have just been a weird bug on my side. Defintly take a video of it, i would love to see somthing own an ageis shielded section.
I went up against the winner of the last tourney... And when the point defense is still surviving, i win hands down.
I can see why i would lose, if the PB are taken out... but its disturbing that some people's versions are not using modules, etc.
i can't get everything running here.. I'll take video tonight.
I had a ship for the fleet tournament that was 25 points. Basically floating mines that had a shield, grav beam, and 4 Point beams. 200 points (8 ships) would really destroy many, many ships that came close. My worlds were to be defended by them. Oh, the plans I had...
Here is a test... create a ship protected by ageis shields and no weapons, and put it up against my red lectoid. You can see sections getting blown off when i get close- even the shielded ones. Unless i enabled some setting which allows defense to be used offensively... i can't see why it wouldn't work.
RoundBoy on
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited November 2007
I've been meaning to dive into this since it was a wee baby thread. Now you are talking about tournaments. How far back in the thread do I have to go to find out about these tournaments.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited November 2007
Thanks.
Interesting. Will this thread get archived eventually? There's a lot of quality deep information on this game in here that would be handy to reference. I can't remember all that.
Is campaign mode best for learning how the ships work or should I tool around in sandbox?
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Goumindong, what? More damaging weapons? The scatter beam is one of the most powerful at short range. It easily defeated every ship of the time except for the Narcissus Base which was also quite a contender.
Just try playing around in one of the tournaments and get some first hand experience for this stuff. ;-)
Actually, it was exactly the effect I wanted. Which was to deal damage from every direction and every exposed section so that deflector shields (which were incredibly cheap point wise) would be unable to keep up.
EDITED- I would say we need much cheaper maneuverability. As it is, most of the battles will be slug fests. I'm trying to decide myself for the fleet tourney if I'm going all frigates to try and flank everyone, or just a single giant space station =\. The latter is much less appealing, but it seems that it has a greater chance of success.
Himura.Kenshin on
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici -- By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe. ~ V
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
I'm not sure I'll be able to get a ship ready for this tournament. I've been busy with Mario Galaxy and other things. I might be able to pull something together, or maybe just use some designs from the Fleet battle I made.
My fleet is ready now, I've just been too lazy to upload it and send a PM.
Since theres extra time, I guess I should reveal something that I was planning to make use of:
Demeter Launcher Pods are insane in large groups, and should have their points adjusted.
Gravity Beams, along with the flak guns, should counter them well. Also In some cases, I've seen a point beam take out every demeter that popped out of the pod at once.
Spoilered in case the points don't change and I use the same fleet for the tournament:
I'm using 10 20-pt battleships with 4 demeter pod launchers apiece. You're right in that lancet beams, grav beams, and flak are all a good counter, but when theres 40 launchers, its not really possible to stop it. In all of my tests, they've only been beaten when using 300 point fleets, but have decimated all equivalent 200 point fleets.
All other massed weapons can be countered using forward facing aegis shields, fast ships, and good point defense, but not really launchers.
I still need to post a video, but my thanksgiving was hectic. Even when it was canceled
We have to look at point costs again to be sure, but always raising the cost is not the answer. You made highly specialized ships, that other highly specialized ships can counter. In the single ship tournament, people crammed as much as they can on.. At least the tournament saw some mixed specialization.
A delay would be good, i wasnt sure i could get a fleet done by tonight (seeing as i havnt started it yet). By the real time with comments, do you mean we would be able to watch the tournament matches as they occur?
Seems that way. Apparently you can record video with Ventrilo. Who knew?
Over at the X-Com Let's Play we were doing this:
Ventrilo + Team Viewer.
Basically you could have lots of people watching and talking about it as the video was recording. A true step forward in Let's Playing. So what I'll probably do is record all the battles at once with people watching/commentating. Then slice and upload them to YouTube afterwards.
Another one of thost "I meant to get it in today" people.
It's now 1:00, and I have to leave the house at 6:30. Some time in between there I would like to sleep and still have time to get up and get ready in the morning.
If I pushed it, I could get my design done in the next five minutes... but it would be horribly put together, (probably) not rule compliant (2 per section rule), and would be completely untested.
I have noticed other people were having little spare time over Thanksgiving either. Deadline --> Saturday/Sunday night?
Himura.Kenshin on
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici -- By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe. ~ V
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
For this tourney, Valkun is giving us 300 points to make our fleet which can have as many ships as we can afford. All ships must range from 20 to 100 points, so I take it you can't build a 300 point Battleship.
Thanks. Also, what were the values for the last one? I was going to find some of the more balanced ships and see how my own handled against them, since I haven't done this before to know what works and what doesn't.
For this tourney, Valkun is giving us 300 points to make our fleet which can have as many ships as we can afford. All ships must range from 20 to 100 points, so I take it you can't build a 300 point Battleship.
I would have blatently overlooked that rule... most of the pre-lim designs I had rolling around included various forms of 300 point Battleships
Himura.Kenshin on
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici -- By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe. ~ V
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
Thanks. Also, what were the values for the last one? I was going to find some of the more balanced ships and see how my own handled against them, since I haven't done this before to know what works and what doesn't.
This is our first Fleet Battle, all the other tourneys we had were a single ship versus another, and all entries had to follow a 100 point limit. You can test your designs on the ships from the second tourney listed here. Keep in mind that these ships used the old rules, so they will generally have more firepower, be slower, and will abuse the low cost of modules.
Finally, with the extra points added I can achieve the speeds I want and actualy stay in positive points with the budget I want! Also, I was planning to make huge usage of the incredibly low priced Impeder Fabricators... oh well ^.^.
What are the rules for section parenting, floating sections, and resizing sections?
And last but not least... Welcome to the New Millenium!!!
Thanks. Also, what were the values for the last one? I was going to find some of the more balanced ships and see how my own handled against them, since I haven't done this before to know what works and what doesn't.
This is our first Fleet Battle, all the other tourneys we had were a single ship versus another, and all entries had to follow a 100 point limit. You can test your designs on the ships from the second tourney listed here. Keep in mind that these ships used the old rules, so they will generally have more firepower, be slower, and will abuse the low cost of modules.
Any chance the blueprints for the third tournament will be released? Through ingenious tracking I have acquired somewhere around half of them, but I was looking forwards to seeing the rest.
Ok, ok, maybe not ingenious tracking. Ctrl-F in the ship database works too.
Himura.Kenshin on
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici -- By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe. ~ V
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
Posts
It seems shields work because they protect the section they are active on, and negate damage. The AI seems to target shielded sections first. TH15 says he fixed the 'target closest section' issue, but i have run up against a number of times that I was 90 degrees to the enemy ship, and I *still* shot at the shielded part, rather then the unshielded length.
maybe narrowing the range of motion from 180 degrees max like i keep it at would help this.. but its damn annoying and frustrating!
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
My theory right now is that when one of those PD guns is intercepting fire, it can deal damage to whatever is underneath the intercepted shot. Massive amounts of damage.
insane.
That aside, there needs to be more flexible limits so that the typical 100-point tournament isn't what the point values are based off.
So here's how I'd do it- add specific requirements for the "pariah" modules and weapons.
Demeter Pod launcher- only available to ships with 100 points or more, and they can fit 2- for every additional 50 points, you can add another Pod launcher. They're just too damn bulky to fit on small ships.
Gravbeam- requires 6 sections per, otherwise structural integrity is compromised by the gravitic distortions. You may only fit one of these per 50 points on a ship.
Point beam- must not be mounted on a ship with AI range 400 or less, or the sensors go wild and they don't function.
Platform Fabricator- such a large construction module must be fitted as a hangar within the ship. It must only touch the section it is attached to, and no section/module/weapon can overlap it.
Frosch Gun- charged by electrostatic energy, it is useless on any ship with less than base 1 speed. You may fit extras at 3, 6, and 10 speed.
Nanomatrix- Don't cross the streams. No nanomatrix can be in range of another nanomatrix during construction, and every nanomatrix needs at least 100pts of ship to work on as a cautionary measure.
Dieterling device- stores momentum and converts it to spacial distortions. For a ship costing 100pts or less, you may fit 1 per 2 speed. 200pts, 1 per 1 speed. 400pts, 1 per 0.5 speed.
Aegis deflectors- highly unstable alien technology- must be mounted on the outer edge of the ship to avoid the instability becoming a liability.
That kind of stuff fly with you guys?
Flak will work too, but it must be manually targeted, or i was never in THAT close to a ship.. Either way, what I saw was that when I closed to point beam range, the 3 would fire and immediately blow off a section - even ageis protected ones.
maybe it was because i was up against a ship with railguns, but the PB were not tied up with other projectiles. The other drawback was that even though my front was shielded.. the railguns would shoot around it, and target the beams directly. Usually they were gone by the time i closed.
Let me see if I can run a quick video to show it.. I might not be able to get it to work here, but I can tonight.
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
I can see why i would lose, if the PB are taken out... but its disturbing that some people's versions are not using modules, etc.
i can't get everything running here.. I'll take video tonight.
I had a ship for the fleet tournament that was 25 points. Basically floating mines that had a shield, grav beam, and 4 Point beams. 200 points (8 ships) would really destroy many, many ships that came close. My worlds were to be defended by them. Oh, the plans I had...
Here is a test... create a ship protected by ageis shields and no weapons, and put it up against my red lectoid. You can see sections getting blown off when i get close- even the shielded ones. Unless i enabled some setting which allows defense to be used offensively... i can't see why it wouldn't work.
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
First Tournament Results
Second Tournament Announced
Second Tournament Results
Third Tournament Announced
Third Tournament Results
Interesting. Will this thread get archived eventually? There's a lot of quality deep information on this game in here that would be handy to reference. I can't remember all that.
Is campaign mode best for learning how the ships work or should I tool around in sandbox?
ed: Also, after watching the video, the cephalopod should have used more damaging weapons or directed weapons with the disabler going.
Just try playing around in one of the tournaments and get some first hand experience for this stuff. ;-)
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
Note: We may be able to hold the tournament in real time with commentary.
Sounds like someone took inspiration from my X-Com LP.
Since theres extra time, I guess I should reveal something that I was planning to make use of:
Demeter Launcher Pods are insane in large groups, and should have their points adjusted.
Gravity Beams, along with the flak guns, should counter them well. Also In some cases, I've seen a point beam take out every demeter that popped out of the pod at once.
I have not tried point beams though.
Spoilered in case the points don't change and I use the same fleet for the tournament:
All other massed weapons can be countered using forward facing aegis shields, fast ships, and good point defense, but not really launchers.
We have to look at point costs again to be sure, but always raising the cost is not the answer. You made highly specialized ships, that other highly specialized ships can counter. In the single ship tournament, people crammed as much as they can on.. At least the tournament saw some mixed specialization.
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
Over at the X-Com Let's Play we were doing this:
Ventrilo + Team Viewer.
Basically you could have lots of people watching and talking about it as the video was recording. A true step forward in Let's Playing. So what I'll probably do is record all the battles at once with people watching/commentating. Then slice and upload them to YouTube afterwards.
It's now 1:00, and I have to leave the house at 6:30. Some time in between there I would like to sleep and still have time to get up and get ready in the morning.
If I pushed it, I could get my design done in the next five minutes... but it would be horribly put together, (probably) not rule compliant (2 per section rule), and would be completely untested.
I have noticed other people were having little spare time over Thanksgiving either. Deadline --> Saturday/Sunday night?
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
I just downloaded this and have been messing around and may be interested in trying out the next one.
I would have blatently overlooked that rule... most of the pre-lim designs I had rolling around included various forms of 300 point Battleships
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura
To balance large ships vs small ships, I'll probably be giving each ship 10-15 points of free movement.
Pod Launchers and both Fabricators will probably also see a small price jump.
This is our first Fleet Battle, all the other tourneys we had were a single ship versus another, and all entries had to follow a 100 point limit. You can test your designs on the ships from the second tourney listed here. Keep in mind that these ships used the old rules, so they will generally have more firepower, be slower, and will abuse the low cost of modules.
What are the rules for section parenting, floating sections, and resizing sections?
And last but not least... Welcome to the New Millenium!!!
EDIT:
Any chance the blueprints for the third tournament will be released? Through ingenious tracking I have acquired somewhere around half of them, but I was looking forwards to seeing the rest.
Nothing is stronger than the will to live. ~ Himura