My time is to valuable too spend it doing something I don't want. If I can't do the farming I want, I do something else.
When I have only one goal, I go do something else entirely.
The ganking people tried to pull on me while I was waiting for Broken Tooth for my hunter helped me finished a novel.
I quit right after getting him because the proccess killed my desire to play.
I'm going to go ahead and ask what exactly the point of this game is? Farming stuff is the worst part of playing EVE for me. The best, the reason I do it, is the PvP and it serves an important economic purpose within the game.
What you describe...sounds like a single player game.
The argument being made for lossy PvP here is based on the idea that unless you actually have PvP mechanics with some type of meaningful loss (i.e. reason to fight hard, or resources to compete over) then the only type of PvP possible is grief-play. The only benefit is making someone's day bad since ganking them and camping their corpse is about the only interesting thing to do.
I mean, the reason people are dicks in Second Life is because that's all there is to do in Second Life. You build your e-Village, and then go wreck someone else's I guess. These are all artificial environments competing for my Real-Life. You don't go escaping to them to be the person you normally are, and for most of us that means waging ceaseless campaigns of destruction when it's not porn.
Exactly. Those people clearly didn't care for the risk aspect of the game.
Most people don't want to play on Insane mode or do speed runs, they just want to see the content they paid for in money and time.
It seems you completely skipped over the part about double reward with no risk. The equivalent of what I'm saying is if in WoW you could farm primal fire or something with no penalty (I'm talking PvP server here.) Or this! If you are playing WoW on a PvE server, where horde and alliance cannot freely attack each other, and you are trying to farm essence of fire. The person who tags the fire elemental first gets the loot right? I'm sure you've run into the dicks that would run around tagging everything in sight so you can't tag anything... Isn't that infuriating? Don't you wish there was a way you could keep them from doing that? I believe there is going to be griefing whether you can attack someone or not, that's why I prefer PvP, because if they are griefing, at least I can do something about it.
That's the whole argument for PvP. The elemental plateau is a wealthy spawn. Whoever controls it is going to be making a crazy amount of money. Don't you want to be able to fight for the plateau? For your right to make money?
So keeping with this analogy, introducing trammel would be the equivalent of making an unlimited number of fire elemental spawns all over the place with no ability for PvP. You could farm all day in your own private spawn with no interference. But you know what that does? It increases everyones wealth and inflates the economy. Again, this is where we say that PvP strengthens, not harms, the economy of an MMO.
Gold selling was never a problem in UO, you know why? Because there wasn't that much of it before Trammel. The checks and balances were the players themselves. WoW is plagued with it because the opposite is true.
PKers presumably have more practice in digital ass-kicking, and more friends interested in kicking digital ass.
The more casual the player, the less likely they have awesome button-mashing skills.
And, of course, there's issues of connections, not wanting to get harassed or griefed forever after, etc.
In early UO you had two classes of people, the PKs and the ANTIs, also called Notos' (As in, say "noto" PKing). The Antis and Notos were the crafters that rose up and adapted to fight the PKs. In any society where there are murderers and chaos, a police force or militia will arise. You see it throughout history. The Anti/Noto group was the answer to the PK problem. If you can't beat someone superior at digital-asskicking, you and your three pissed friends can. Keep in mind that you only have to kill a PK ONCE to have them out of your hair for weeks (statloss). So this negates the harrassed or griefed forever after argument. After statloss it would be effectively like facing a level 40 as a 70 in WoW. I don't care how much you lack "digital-asskicking" skills, if you are a 70 and they are a 40, you are going to win, every time.
Here's the big trick. MMORPGs have multiple aspects of play. Some of these can detriment others.
PKing makes it more difficult to craft, gather, RP, or otherwise use non-PVP content.
Imagine if opening up a trade, craft, or gathering window shut down your ability to PVP in the area?
Would that be fun for you?
Would PVEers having a "No PK Zone" around them at a significant radius at will make you a happy PVPer?
You are having this awesome battle with Dark Lord Muffincake, and suddenly this guy just starts Mining for Fish and oh crap you can't do any damage until he gets bored with Fish-Mining. Oh well let's fight somewhere else you say? Oh but no, the Fish-Miner follows you around, snickering as he baits his hook every time you draw your sword.
Again, the whole point of my story was that I was a crafter to begin with, and I remained one, but I took on the skills necessary and adapted to be able to defend myself. PKing, RPing, crafting, etc can all be fit in the same game, it really, truly can. I am an RPer. Seriously. You may not believe me, but I am. I've RPed murderers and I've RPed crafters and everything in between. Our community on Great Lakes thrived on this game's mechanics. Go look at the archives of this site sometime when you are bored. We waged battles for land as farmers, we worshiped a black dragon (played by game staff). UO encouraged RP in a way no other game ever has. They had a position in their staff called "Seers" these were people that could create buildings, characters, story-lines etc. And you know what? They encouraged PvP. I honestly believe that our server coined the term RPvP for all future games. We gained so much popularity that we made the official uo.com website as people exemplary to the community. Our GL RP community was built on the idea and PvP and RP can coincide and it goes on to this day.
Two seers played two dragons, a gold, good dragon, and a black, evil one. They RPed that their fight would be Armageddon. They had a tournament to decide what ten people would fight as their highest knights on both the good and evil side and the players participated in it. It's still legendary to this day. I love being an RPer. You know what makes it that much sweeter? I'm good at PvP. Really good. And the "griefers" you refer to hate it. They make fun of my playstyle, they attack me, and then shortly thereafter I'm standing over their corpse, looting their body, and spamming "Thou hast been bested!" to rub salt in the wound.
Your playstyle just happens to have the ability to STOP their playstyle.
Again, I don't understand how. I can't stop your playstyle unless you give up and refuse to fight back and/or adapt. Not to mention that there are safe zones, around ten towns with guards that instakill should someone decide to attack an innocent. Trade and resource gathering can be done in these confines. Minoc was a town with a mine inside the town guards. Likewise Yew had the most lumber available anywhere in the game world--inside the town guards.
I like this guy.
I played UO for a month and I only penetrated the tip of the RPing iceberg but good god, was it good. I loved the daily newspaper delivered to my front door. I tried to pick it up a few months ago but the guild I was kind of in is all but dead.
Full-loot PvP is not a gold sink. For something to be an X sink, then X needs to disappear. Guess what? When some random PKer picks up your shit, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT DISAPPEARED. It's still in the economy and, therefore, not a sink.
Actually it is a sink, the person who does the looting doesnt need 20 GM swords, they turn them into ingots (netting a loss) and sell the raw materials to crafters (another slight sink).
I'm going to go ahead and ask what exactly the point of this game is? Farming stuff is the worst part of playing EVE for me. The best, the reason I do it, is the PvP and it serves an important economic purpose within the game.
PVE content, socializing, and some people really honestly just like to do nothing but sit there and do relatively mundane tasks over and over again.
I PVP, and I'm totally into the occasional town aggression thing (<3 Hillsbrad), but when I'm doing something other than PVP, and PVP suddenly pops up, it's annoying. Especially when you're questing in dangerous territory with lots of fast-spawning mobs in the way.
What you describe...sounds like a single player game.
There are plenty of solo players in MMOs to various degrees.
The argument being made for lossy PvP here is based on the idea that unless you actually have PvP mechanics with some type of meaningful loss (i.e. reason to fight hard, or resources to compete over) then the only type of PvP possible is grief-play. The only benefit is making someone's day bad since ganking them and camping their corpse is about the only interesting thing to do.
The problem is that PVP can put an absolute halt on someone else's non-PVP play.
People play PVE servers so the only possible interruption is resource competitors, UNTIL they actually FEEL like playing the PVP game.
I mean, the reason people are dicks in Second Life is because that's all there is to do in Second Life. You build your e-Village, and then go wreck someone else's I guess. These are all artificial environments competing for my Real-Life. You don't go escaping to them to be the person you normally are, and for most of us that means waging ceaseless campaigns of destruction when it's not porn.
I don't know second life, but I've played a variety of games, including one which was basically just a chat room, but with RPers without any rules to dictate events. You would fairly often have some people exploding the room in gouts of hellfire while someone else in the room was having a tea party and some other people were whispering sex scenes to each other.
A lot of people just like being -around- events without participating in them, or while doing their own completely unrelated thing.
My time is to valuable too spend it doing something I don't want. If I can't do the farming I want, I do something else.
When I have only one goal, I go do something else entirely.
The ganking people tried to pull on me while I was waiting for Broken Tooth for my hunter helped me finished a novel.
I quit right after getting him because the proccess killed my desire to play.
Earlier you used the fact that Trammel was more populated than Fel that that meant people dont want pvp. It was no risk, with reward to go to Trammel. Of course people are going to use it instead. That doent make it superior. If WoW had a big "kill the boss" button that would slay whatever raid boss you were fighting with no risk, guess what? People would use it...does that mean they should add an "i win" button for raid bosses?
It sounds like the game you want is a glorified single player game with chat features and theme parks for you and a couple of buddies to run though. Thats fine, but there is another option out there, one that is really a MMORPG. I left wow because there was nothing that made me feel like I had a stake in the world, just throwaway quake deathmatches (BG's), and theme parks to visit (instanced dungeons). I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
So how come every single HARDKORE PEE VEE PEEEEEEEEEEEE advocate refers to their idea of a game as the only real possible game? Every time. All of them.
I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
Sorry, but so do the other four million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred and ninety-nine other players. Guess what? Your part in changing the world will be so damn insignificant that it may as well not exist. If you want to change the world, play a single-player game.
So how come every single HARDKORE PEE VEE PEEEEEEEEEEEE advocate refers to their idea of a game as the only real possible game? Every time. All of them.
I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
Sorry, but so do the other four million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred and ninety-nine other players. Guess what? Your part in changing the world will be so damn insignificant that it may as well not exist. If you want to change the world, play a single-player game.
Meh, theres a few big name players in EVE that have done some fairly important things.
Eve is more niche though, and its all on one server.
So how come every single HARDKORE PEE VEE PEEEEEEEEEEEE advocate refers to their idea of a game as the only real possible game? Every time. All of them.
I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
Sorry, but so do the other four million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred and ninety-nine other players. Guess what? Your part in changing the world will be so damn insignificant that it may as well not exist. If you want to change the world, play a single-player game.
Am I the only one that sees the irony that two people fighting against open-ended PvP have differing opinions about the role of people who enjoy single player games in MMOs? Just checking. I.E:
What you describe...sounds like a single player game.
There are plenty of solo players in MMOs to various degrees.
vs
Sorry, but so do the other four million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred and ninety-nine other players. Guess what? Your part in changing the world will be so damn insignificant that it may as well not exist. If you want to change the world, play a single-player game.
The point of being in a world is that you can build large organizations and accomplish things as a group. Whereas playing totally solo renders that into insignificance - doubly so because the provided gameplay just doesn't require a persistent world for many players.
So how come every single HARDKORE PEE VEE PEEEEEEEEEEEE advocate refers to their idea of a game as the only real possible game? Every time. All of them.
I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
Sorry, but so do the other four million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred and ninety-nine other players. Guess what? Your part in changing the world will be so damn insignificant that it may as well not exist. If you want to change the world, play a single-player game.
Meh, theres a few big name players in EVE that have done some fairly important things.
Eve is more niche though, and its all on one server.
And I'd put good money on these players playing the game like it's their fucking job.
Am I the only one that sees the irony that two people fighting against open-ended PvP have differing opinions about the role of people who enjoy single player games in MMOs? Just checking. I.E:
No, I don't think anybody else would ever see the irony in two people who share the same opinion on one topic to have differing opinions on the other.
Earlier you used the fact that Trammel was more populated than Fel that that meant people dont want pvp. It was no risk, with reward to go to Trammel.
Yes. Since PVP was not rewarding for non-PKers.
Of course people are going to use it instead. That doent make it superior.
It does if you're trying to make money off the game.
If WoW had a big "kill the boss" button that would slay whatever raid boss you were fighting with no risk, guess what? People would use it...does that mean they should add an "i win" button for raid bosses?
PVE risks tend to get reduced when new content is released, at least with WoW.
Guess which game is making the most money.
It sounds like the game you want is a glorified single player game with chat features and theme parks for you and a couple of buddies to run though.
I play PVP servers, thank you. I'm just not blinding myself to business realities.
Thats fine, but there is another option out there, one that is really a MMORPG.
Here we go again.
No. "MMORPG" is not defined by PVP. PVP is one of several possible gaming options available to MMOs.
RPG, in game terms, really just means some form of extended character building is available, whether through levels or skills.
That's it.
Stop it with the No True Scottsman garbage.
I left wow because there was nothing that made me feel like I had a stake in the world, just throwaway quake deathmatches (BG's), and theme parks to visit (instanced dungeons). I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
That would be Second Life you're wanting then, or similar, you know, if you're hard core.
So how come every single HARDKORE PEE VEE PEEEEEEEEEEEE advocate refers to their idea of a game as the only real possible game? Every time. All of them.
I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
Sorry, but so do the other four million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred and ninety-nine other players. Guess what? Your part in changing the world will be so damn insignificant that it may as well not exist. If you want to change the world, play a single-player game.
Meh, theres a few big name players in EVE that have done some fairly important things.
Eve is more niche though, and its all on one server.
And I'd put good money on these players playing the game like it's their fucking job.
Am I the only one that sees the irony that two people fighting against open-ended PvP have differing opinions about the role of people who enjoy single player games in MMOs? Just checking. I.E:
No, I don't think anybody else would ever see the irony in two people who share the same opinion on one topic to have differing opinions on the other.
Also: what the fuck are you talking about?
No, see, we have hit the prime point here. I don't think you believe there is room for compromise. You believe that our playstyle infringes on yours (nonPvP). What we are saying, is that in an MMO there has to be compromise or else you are isolating yourself and you might as well be playing a single player game. THe fact that I'm pointing out the inconsistency in the same argument ("You might as well be playing a single player game!") is just to show that one of you realizes thats the case, and the other is denying it.
Edit: To further hash out this idea, the reason so many of us are bitter, and tend to lash out, is because this argument tends to remind us of the kid that threw a hissyfit when he was losing. "I don't want to play that way!" "But Timmy, those are the rules!" "Well then I'm not playing! *flips monopoly board and goes to count his play-money in the corner*". That's why the PvPcrowd tends to call name etc, they treat you like babies. They treat you like the socially awkward who are incapable of interacting with others inside a game where it is within the rule set to play that way.
I'm not saying that's what I see, I'm trying to bridge the gap to help you understand where this perceived hostility comes from the other PvPosters.
The point of being in a world is that you can build large organizations and accomplish things as a group. Whereas playing totally solo renders that into insignificance - doubly so because the provided gameplay just doesn't require a persistent world for many players.
Many people would be pretty happy if various MMOs weren't MMOs.
I'm sure you've heard about those illegal private servers.
--
PVP also gets in the way of grouping. It's not like there's only two people max on the screen at any one time.
It's not even a point for debate, you can go to MMOs and listen to the Chat channels and listen to people gripe about being ganked all day long.
The point of being in a world is that you can build large organizations and accomplish things as a group. Whereas playing totally solo renders that into insignificance - doubly so because the provided gameplay just doesn't require a persistent world for many players.
Many people would be pretty happy if various MMOs weren't MMOs.
I'm sure you've heard about those illegal private servers.
--
PVP also gets in the way of grouping. It's not like there's only two people max on the screen at any one time.
It's not even a point for debate, you can go to MMOs and listen to the Chat channels and listen to people gripe about being ganked all day long.
Freelancer did the idea best - multiplayer just simulated a gameworld for you. There were some fun persistent servers around.
Freelancer did the idea best - multiplayer just simulated a gameworld for you. There were some fun persistent servers around.
It's like I said before, the issue with MMORPGs is that they're several games in one. Some people only want some parts of the game, and not others.
Some people hate the gear issue.
Some people hate crafting.
Some people hate material gathering.
Some people hate dungeons.
Some people hate soloing.
Some people hate groups.
Some people hate terrain issues.
Some people hate PVP.
Some people hate RP.
Some people hate the lack of any of the above.
But unless they kick out a version for every single specific play style... they have to compromise. And the compromise will always be aimed at the money.
You believe that our playstyle infringes on yours (nonPvP). What we are saying, is that in an MMO there has to be compromise or else you are isolating yourself and you might as well be playing a single player game.
I find it rather sad that the only way you can imagine interacting with other people is to attempt to kill them.
[edit]Oh right, I forgot to say what I meant to say: your playstyle is based on infringing on that of other players. You're absolutely fucking out of your MIND if you think otherwise. Fighting players who don't want to fight you is the definition of infringing on their playstyle. And you want that ability to ruin somebody else's day, or you wouldn't complain about the totally consensual PvP system in World of Warcraft.
You believe that our playstyle infringes on yours (nonPvP). What we are saying, is that in an MMO there has to be compromise or else you are isolating yourself and you might as well be playing a single player game.
I find it rather sad that the only way you can imagine interacting with other people is to attempt to kill them.
I can see how you could jump to that conclusion if that was the only one of my posts that you read. However, since you have been debating for quite some time, probably long enough to see my lengthy post about my extended RP career, I can only assume you have some sort of short-term memory deprivation.
What I'm saying is, we don't care if you craft, and gather, and fish, and RP, and you are content to do that, but as soon as we add PvP to the end of that list, you are going to want to pack up and go play by yourself.
You believe that our playstyle infringes on yours (nonPvP). What we are saying, is that in an MMO there has to be compromise or else you are isolating yourself and you might as well be playing a single player game.
I find it rather sad that the only way you can imagine interacting with other people is to attempt to kill them.
[edit]Oh right, I forgot to say what I meant to say: your playstyle is based on infringing on that of other players. You're absolutely fucking out of your MIND if you think otherwise. Fighting players who don't want to fight you is the definition of infringing on their playstyle. And you want that ability to ruin somebody else's day, or you wouldn't complain about the totally consensual PvP system in World of Warcraft.
It's a virtual fucking world. There are no grand works to be accomplished here.
You believe that our playstyle infringes on yours (nonPvP). What we are saying, is that in an MMO there has to be compromise or else you are isolating yourself and you might as well be playing a single player game.
I find it rather sad that the only way you can imagine interacting with other people isto attempt to kill them.
I can see how you could jump to that conclusion if that was the only one of my posts that you read. However, since you have been debating for quite some time, probably long enough to see my lengthy post about my extended RP career, I can only assume you have some sort of short-term memory deprivation.
What I'm saying is, we don't care if you craft, and gather, and fish, and RP, and you are content to do that, but as soon as we add PvP to the end of that list, you are going to want to pack up and go play by yourself.
No, you do care, because what you want is a game that has all these non-combat characters so you can PWNZ0R N3WBZZZZZZZZZ. You don't give a rat's ass about anybody else's play experience, all you care about is finding the next person to kill. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo. Hey, so long as we're using metaphors, you remind me of the Calvin and Hobbes where they're playing tag and Calvin throws a hissy-fit about not being able to punch people after tagging them.
This thread is utterly retarded and frustrating. Someone respond to one of my posts someday, instead of picking out stupid sound bytes from other people's and hammering them into the ground with your rehashed hateful bullshit.
Some people enjoy different things than you. Get. The fuck. Over it. You are not better than them because of it, and when what gives you kicks infringes on their ability to play, and they are an overwhelming,
What I'm saying is, we don't care if you craft, and gather, and fish, and RP, and you are content to do that, but as soon as we add PvP to the end of that list, you are going to want to pack up and go play by yourself.
PVP doesn't allow someone to continue to craft, gather, fish, or RP, until the PVP is included.
It's like having a baby or something.
You're having a nice chat with friends, or sexing up your SO, or watching the news, then WHAAAAAAAA! you have to drop everything to go and clean up a dirty diaper, whether you like it or not.
Also, I'm not sure how I got lumped in the group with the griefers. Is it because we're fighting for the same thing? I'm an RPer, I fight for PvP because not having PvP limits my playstyle as an RPer. Let me repeat that last phrase bolded and italicized for emphasis: I'm an RPer, I fight for PvP because not having PvP limits my playstyle as an RPer. I want PvP to be viable because without it, RP is boring as hell for me. I have to have RP wars.
In UO, everyone talks the same language. Everyone can attack everyone else. If someone disrespects your character, your character can do something about it. Eli Drachen was an assassin for hire. You can guarantee that if someone insulted his honor, they were probably gonna get stabbed in the back later. I wouldn't even loot them. It's not a matter of griefing, it's a matter of being able to do what my character would do. You know why all movies contain conflict? Because the absence of conflict isn't fun for any-fucking-one. That's what I can't understand. Do you go to the movies to watch two people sit on screen and drink coffee? No, you go to watch conflict, drama, hell even chick flicks have a part where they disagree and fight.
I'm not a mindless PKer, I PK with purpose. I usually didn't even loot my victims, if we're going to be damn honest. You don't think it's possible to RP a PK? Check out Adam Ant's adventures. He roleplayed the protectors of the Liches. Liches were like ancient uberintelligent wizards that embraced the darkside. He protected them because he thought they were holy, and when he killed people, he would resurrect them, tell them not to come back, and give them a means to get back to town.
We aren't all crazy rabid PKers fighting for our rights to ruin your gameplay, we are fighting for the right to keep ours in future games.
The issue is that, as a roleplayer, there does not need to be anything that the people pushing for non-consensual risk-based PvP are asking for. World of Warcraft could implement guild alliances and guild wars, with definable looting privileges, and everything a roleplayer could need would be there.
Roleplayers can create their own structure on top of what the game requires, and the onus falls on the roleplayers to then respect those who do not want to roleplay with them. I would still say Adam Ant was a griefer a large amount of the time because, having played UO at the time and been witness to the stories, he would often kill people first and explain himself later.
That's still griefing, because that's forcing your playstyle on someone else without them having any recourse, in my opinion. It's forcing roleplay player-killing on them, and the ideal MMO that I envision-- and a fiscally-successful one-- would not allow that just the same as it wouldn't allow non-roleplayer player-killers to run rampant in PvE content.
Also, the whole "My motive is I like to kill people!" is how you get kicked out of most pure-RP communities.
Without a doubt, unarguably, the single most successful RP community in UO was on the Great Lakes shard, with Atlanta and Lake Superior a close second. You know what all three had in common? They were built around the idea of factions. Some people RPed undead, some people RPed Orcs, some people RPed humans. Can you guess what happened when any of these three groups met the other?
Hint:
They didn't sit and nibble on bagels.
The RP community in WoW on the official RPvP server (maelstrom) is dwindling. People are realizing that since WoW denies the ability to let factions communicate with each other, a purposeful RP war is impossible. My RP guild has been together and moved from game to game for almost a decade, and we are moving from WoW because it doesn't offer us the ability to harbor conflict with another willing RP guild of the opposite faction.
Also, I'm not sure how I got lumped in the group with the griefers. Is it because we're fighting for the same thing? I'm an RPer, I fight for PvP because not having PvP limits my playstyle as an RPer. Let me repeat that last phrase bolded and italicized for emphasis: I'm an RPer, I fight for PvP because not having PvP limits my playstyle as an RPer. I want PvP to be viable because without it, RP is boring as hell for me. I have to have RP wars.
In UO, everyone talks the same language. Everyone can attack everyone else. If someone disrespects your character, your character can do something about it. Eli Drachen was an assassin for hire. You can guarantee that if someone insulted his honor, they were probably gonna get stabbed in the back later. I wouldn't even loot them. It's not a matter of griefing, it's a matter of being able to do what my character would do. You know why all movies contain conflict? Because the absence of conflict isn't fun for any-fucking-one. That's what I can't understand. Do you go to the movies to watch two people sit on screen and drink coffee? No, you go to watch conflict, drama, hell even chick flicks have a part where they disagree and fight.
I'm not a mindless PKer, I PK with purpose. I usually didn't even loot my victims, if we're going to be damn honest. You don't think it's possible to RP a PK? Check out Adam Ant's adventures. He roleplayed the protectors of the Liches. Liches were like ancient uberintelligent wizards that embraced the darkside. He protected them because he thought they were holy, and when he killed people, he would resurrect them, tell them not to come back, and give them a means to get back to town.
We aren't all crazy rabid PKers fighting for our rights to ruin your gameplay, we are fighting for the right to keep ours in future games.
That's all fine and dandy but why should the person you kill due to RP purposes loose gear, xp or whatever other things that took time to get? Shouldn't the RP purpose be enough?
Oh, don't fucking say some Ultima Online roleplaying communities were "more successful" than others and then say that they were so because they had constant conflict. We had six player towns going at one point on Chesapeake, with multiple conflicts between all of them, but we still didn't allow players to just go around ganking one another unless the other party was aware of it or if the gankee was informed by a higher-up that there were "rumors of assassins" or whatever. Anyway, it's a fucking retarded stance that non-consensual race-motivated player-versus-player combat is the best kind of roleplaying.
Your response is just very retarded, until you get to the part about World of Warcraft. That part is true, and is why World of Warcraft has less of a roleplaying following than Ultima Online.
Just the same, you're conflating causalities and you need to stop because you're wrong.
Oh, don't fucking say some Ultima Online roleplaying communities were "more successful" than others and then say that they were so because they had constant conflict. We had six player towns going at one point on Chesapeake, with multiple conflicts between all of them, but we still didn't allow players to just go around ganking one another unless the other party was aware of it or if the gankee was informed by a higher-up that there were "rumors of assassins" or whatever. Anyway, it's a fucking retarded stance that non-consensual race-motivated player-versus-player combat is the best kind of roleplaying.
Your response is just very retarded, until you get to the part about World of Warcraft. That part is true, and is why World of Warcraft has less of a roleplaying following than Ultima Online.
Just the same, you're conflating causalities and you need to stop because you're wrong.
The hell are you talking about? I played on Chessy in that RP community and they had PvP just like on GL. Why are you omitting that? Were you banking on the fact I hadn't RPed with that server?
We had PvP, but we weren't fucking gutting each other daily. In my four years playing there, I got into maybe a half-dozen all-out brawls and several smaller skirmishes, and only while on the town guard with the invading Wraiths. Shard-wide roleplaying rules dictated the townspeople guilds, the crafter guilds, the nobles' guilds, the gypsy guild, etc., were forbidden targets unless specifically mentioned because of an ongoing scenario (a victorious raid, or whatever)-- in those four years, those rules were never waived.
However, all of these battles were organized ahead of time. The actual PvP was unscripted, but the encounters were, even if the script was only handed out to the most high-up officers so that they could roleplay the trickle-down realistically.
And, like I said, this is all possible in a codified system, not a non-consensual one. Try again.
I know of an online community where there is zero coded combat, which has been going on for well over a decade, and keeps growing (it's a creepy community, but hey).
And as impressed as I am with fantasy racist wars, you'll find a lot of people have no interest in them whatsoever.
Yes, it's silly that the WoW community can't communicate and team up together.
I used to be a member of various groups like the ones you describe, as well, Incenj, and it's why I feel that the roleplaying tangent is just a tangent to this discussion. Roleplayers are completely capable of inventing their own structure, and by nature of what they enjoy, holding true to it.
BUMMER! I thought this thread was gonna be about an MMO coming out that had real PVP . I was thinking "OH YEAH!" Like some game had your real name and location and you can go , ya know...kick their ass in real life.
I used to be a member of various groups like the ones you describe, as well, Incenj, and it's why I feel that the roleplaying tangent is just a tangent to this discussion. Roleplayers are completely capable of inventing their own structure, and by nature of what they enjoy, holding true to it.
RPing often gets used as an excuse for PKing. "My character is a mass murderer, don't tread on my RP!"
--
Anyways, the main issue with a "Real PVP" game is finding enough people who actually give a rat's patut about random PVP to attract money.
You're pretty much forever stuck with indie games, as such, unless there's a shift in the demographic itself, which is unlikely.
EDIT: I actually had the privilege of roleplaying a mass-murderer as part of a three year long ongoing storyline, and the only actual murdering I did was the initial murdering, where it became apparent that blah blah plotline stuff. The issue that arose, and the beauty of not having the actual combat scripted, was that I actually deposed of the leader of the guard who we expected to kill me and so the storyline evolved around that.
Just the same, despite being an unchecked mass-murderer and public enemy at large, I didn't kill anyone outside of NPCs or other characters that were technically under my control (alts), and even then largely in prose. The storyline came to focus on my redemption, and we utilized in-game elements like monster spawns/drops to bring the event to the community at large. My being the quintessential kill-happy villain did not mean people died for no good reason, it meant that NPCs died in prose and the other PCs got to partake in various quests rich in plot, dialogue, and inter-community strife.
Fuck, people killed one another because of me, but I didn't do the killing. The storylines evolved on their own, and each fight had a purpose.
BUMMER! I thought this thread was gonna be about an MMO coming out that had real PVP . I was thinking "OH YEAH!" Like some game had your real name and location and you can go , ya know...kick their ass in real life.
I used to be a member of various groups like the ones you describe, as well, Incenj, and it's why I feel that the roleplaying tangent is just a tangent to this discussion. Roleplayers are completely capable of inventing their own structure, and by nature of what they enjoy, holding true to it.
RPing often gets used as an excuse for PKing. "My character is a mass murderer, don't tread on my RP!"
--
Anyways, the main issue with a "Real PVP" game is finding enough people who actually give a rat's patut about random PVP to attract money.
You're pretty much forever stuck with indie games, as such, unless there's a shift in the demographic itself, which is unlikely.
Yup, when they had a monopoly and anytime you said "MMORPG" people would ask if it was a government agency. "What, like the CIA?" UO was groundbreaking. You couldn't explain the game without first explaining that you were playing with thousands of other people at once. 500,000 should be adjusted for inflation, no one knew it existed and no video game magazines new how to review/cover it.
Not the women, though. Ultima Online remained for a long time, and may actually still remain, one of the most female-biased MMOs as far as ostensible data goes.
Not the women, though. Ultima Online remained for a long time, and may actually still remain, one of the most female-biased MMOs as far as ostensible data goes.
I know one of said.
I get the impression that the modern UO is AO. :oops:
I imagine it has to do with being best-known to the Gen X crowd, while the kiddies go for newer things, and being text-heavy and editable, allowing for easier RP.
Posts
What you describe...sounds like a single player game.
The argument being made for lossy PvP here is based on the idea that unless you actually have PvP mechanics with some type of meaningful loss (i.e. reason to fight hard, or resources to compete over) then the only type of PvP possible is grief-play. The only benefit is making someone's day bad since ganking them and camping their corpse is about the only interesting thing to do.
I mean, the reason people are dicks in Second Life is because that's all there is to do in Second Life. You build your e-Village, and then go wreck someone else's I guess. These are all artificial environments competing for my Real-Life. You don't go escaping to them to be the person you normally are, and for most of us that means waging ceaseless campaigns of destruction when it's not porn.
I like this guy.
I played UO for a month and I only penetrated the tip of the RPing iceberg but good god, was it good. I loved the daily newspaper delivered to my front door. I tried to pick it up a few months ago but the guild I was kind of in is all but dead.
PVE content, socializing, and some people really honestly just like to do nothing but sit there and do relatively mundane tasks over and over again.
I PVP, and I'm totally into the occasional town aggression thing (<3 Hillsbrad), but when I'm doing something other than PVP, and PVP suddenly pops up, it's annoying. Especially when you're questing in dangerous territory with lots of fast-spawning mobs in the way.
There are plenty of solo players in MMOs to various degrees.
The problem is that PVP can put an absolute halt on someone else's non-PVP play.
People play PVE servers so the only possible interruption is resource competitors, UNTIL they actually FEEL like playing the PVP game.
I don't know second life, but I've played a variety of games, including one which was basically just a chat room, but with RPers without any rules to dictate events. You would fairly often have some people exploding the room in gouts of hellfire while someone else in the room was having a tea party and some other people were whispering sex scenes to each other.
A lot of people just like being -around- events without participating in them, or while doing their own completely unrelated thing.
It sounds like the game you want is a glorified single player game with chat features and theme parks for you and a couple of buddies to run though. Thats fine, but there is another option out there, one that is really a MMORPG. I left wow because there was nothing that made me feel like I had a stake in the world, just throwaway quake deathmatches (BG's), and theme parks to visit (instanced dungeons). I like MMORPG's where I feel like I am in a living world where I can make a difference and have a stake in it.
It's utterly and completely baffling.
Oh, and:
Sorry, but so do the other four million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred and ninety-nine other players. Guess what? Your part in changing the world will be so damn insignificant that it may as well not exist. If you want to change the world, play a single-player game.
Meh, theres a few big name players in EVE that have done some fairly important things.
Eve is more niche though, and its all on one server.
Am I the only one that sees the irony that two people fighting against open-ended PvP have differing opinions about the role of people who enjoy single player games in MMOs? Just checking. I.E:
vs
And I'd put good money on these players playing the game like it's their fucking job.
No, I don't think anybody else would ever see the irony in two people who share the same opinion on one topic to have differing opinions on the other.
Also: what the fuck are you talking about?
Yes. Since PVP was not rewarding for non-PKers.
It does if you're trying to make money off the game.
PVE risks tend to get reduced when new content is released, at least with WoW.
Guess which game is making the most money.
I play PVP servers, thank you. I'm just not blinding myself to business realities.
Here we go again.
No. "MMORPG" is not defined by PVP. PVP is one of several possible gaming options available to MMOs.
RPG, in game terms, really just means some form of extended character building is available, whether through levels or skills.
That's it.
Stop it with the No True Scottsman garbage.
That would be Second Life you're wanting then, or similar, you know, if you're hard core.
No, see, we have hit the prime point here. I don't think you believe there is room for compromise. You believe that our playstyle infringes on yours (nonPvP). What we are saying, is that in an MMO there has to be compromise or else you are isolating yourself and you might as well be playing a single player game. THe fact that I'm pointing out the inconsistency in the same argument ("You might as well be playing a single player game!") is just to show that one of you realizes thats the case, and the other is denying it.
Edit: To further hash out this idea, the reason so many of us are bitter, and tend to lash out, is because this argument tends to remind us of the kid that threw a hissyfit when he was losing. "I don't want to play that way!" "But Timmy, those are the rules!" "Well then I'm not playing! *flips monopoly board and goes to count his play-money in the corner*". That's why the PvPcrowd tends to call name etc, they treat you like babies. They treat you like the socially awkward who are incapable of interacting with others inside a game where it is within the rule set to play that way.
I'm not saying that's what I see, I'm trying to bridge the gap to help you understand where this perceived hostility comes from the other PvPosters.
Many people would be pretty happy if various MMOs weren't MMOs.
I'm sure you've heard about those illegal private servers.
--
PVP also gets in the way of grouping. It's not like there's only two people max on the screen at any one time.
It's not even a point for debate, you can go to MMOs and listen to the Chat channels and listen to people gripe about being ganked all day long.
Freelancer did the idea best - multiplayer just simulated a gameworld for you. There were some fun persistent servers around.
It's like I said before, the issue with MMORPGs is that they're several games in one. Some people only want some parts of the game, and not others.
Some people hate the gear issue.
Some people hate crafting.
Some people hate material gathering.
Some people hate dungeons.
Some people hate soloing.
Some people hate groups.
Some people hate terrain issues.
Some people hate PVP.
Some people hate RP.
Some people hate the lack of any of the above.
But unless they kick out a version for every single specific play style... they have to compromise. And the compromise will always be aimed at the money.
I find it rather sad that the only way you can imagine interacting with other people is to attempt to kill them.
[edit]Oh right, I forgot to say what I meant to say: your playstyle is based on infringing on that of other players. You're absolutely fucking out of your MIND if you think otherwise. Fighting players who don't want to fight you is the definition of infringing on their playstyle. And you want that ability to ruin somebody else's day, or you wouldn't complain about the totally consensual PvP system in World of Warcraft.
I can see how you could jump to that conclusion if that was the only one of my posts that you read. However, since you have been debating for quite some time, probably long enough to see my lengthy post about my extended RP career, I can only assume you have some sort of short-term memory deprivation.
What I'm saying is, we don't care if you craft, and gather, and fish, and RP, and you are content to do that, but as soon as we add PvP to the end of that list, you are going to want to pack up and go play by yourself.
No, you do care, because what you want is a game that has all these non-combat characters so you can PWNZ0R N3WBZZZZZZZZZ. You don't give a rat's ass about anybody else's play experience, all you care about is finding the next person to kill. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo. Hey, so long as we're using metaphors, you remind me of the Calvin and Hobbes where they're playing tag and Calvin throws a hissy-fit about not being able to punch people after tagging them.
Some people enjoy different things than you. Get. The fuck. Over it. You are not better than them because of it, and when what gives you kicks infringes on their ability to play, and they are an overwhelming,
millions, overwhelming, majority,
you. Lose.
PVP doesn't allow someone to continue to craft, gather, fish, or RP, until the PVP is included.
It's like having a baby or something.
You're having a nice chat with friends, or sexing up your SO, or watching the news, then WHAAAAAAAA! you have to drop everything to go and clean up a dirty diaper, whether you like it or not.
One of these analogies has to sink in eventually.
In UO, everyone talks the same language. Everyone can attack everyone else. If someone disrespects your character, your character can do something about it. Eli Drachen was an assassin for hire. You can guarantee that if someone insulted his honor, they were probably gonna get stabbed in the back later. I wouldn't even loot them. It's not a matter of griefing, it's a matter of being able to do what my character would do. You know why all movies contain conflict? Because the absence of conflict isn't fun for any-fucking-one. That's what I can't understand. Do you go to the movies to watch two people sit on screen and drink coffee? No, you go to watch conflict, drama, hell even chick flicks have a part where they disagree and fight.
I'm not a mindless PKer, I PK with purpose. I usually didn't even loot my victims, if we're going to be damn honest. You don't think it's possible to RP a PK? Check out Adam Ant's adventures. He roleplayed the protectors of the Liches. Liches were like ancient uberintelligent wizards that embraced the darkside. He protected them because he thought they were holy, and when he killed people, he would resurrect them, tell them not to come back, and give them a means to get back to town.
We aren't all crazy rabid PKers fighting for our rights to ruin your gameplay, we are fighting for the right to keep ours in future games.
Roleplayers can create their own structure on top of what the game requires, and the onus falls on the roleplayers to then respect those who do not want to roleplay with them. I would still say Adam Ant was a griefer a large amount of the time because, having played UO at the time and been witness to the stories, he would often kill people first and explain himself later.
That's still griefing, because that's forcing your playstyle on someone else without them having any recourse, in my opinion. It's forcing roleplay player-killing on them, and the ideal MMO that I envision-- and a fiscally-successful one-- would not allow that just the same as it wouldn't allow non-roleplayer player-killers to run rampant in PvE content.
Also, the whole "My motive is I like to kill people!" is how you get kicked out of most pure-RP communities.
Without a doubt, unarguably, the single most successful RP community in UO was on the Great Lakes shard, with Atlanta and Lake Superior a close second. You know what all three had in common? They were built around the idea of factions. Some people RPed undead, some people RPed Orcs, some people RPed humans. Can you guess what happened when any of these three groups met the other?
Hint:
The RP community in WoW on the official RPvP server (maelstrom) is dwindling. People are realizing that since WoW denies the ability to let factions communicate with each other, a purposeful RP war is impossible. My RP guild has been together and moved from game to game for almost a decade, and we are moving from WoW because it doesn't offer us the ability to harbor conflict with another willing RP guild of the opposite faction.
Your response is just very retarded, until you get to the part about World of Warcraft. That part is true, and is why World of Warcraft has less of a roleplaying following than Ultima Online.
Just the same, you're conflating causalities and you need to stop because you're wrong.
The hell are you talking about? I played on Chessy in that RP community and they had PvP just like on GL. Why are you omitting that? Were you banking on the fact I hadn't RPed with that server?
However, all of these battles were organized ahead of time. The actual PvP was unscripted, but the encounters were, even if the script was only handed out to the most high-up officers so that they could roleplay the trickle-down realistically.
And, like I said, this is all possible in a codified system, not a non-consensual one. Try again.
I know of an online community where there is zero coded combat, which has been going on for well over a decade, and keeps growing (it's a creepy community, but hey).
And as impressed as I am with fantasy racist wars, you'll find a lot of people have no interest in them whatsoever.
Yes, it's silly that the WoW community can't communicate and team up together.
But they put that in there for the PVPers.
I used to be a member of various groups like the ones you describe, as well, Incenj, and it's why I feel that the roleplaying tangent is just a tangent to this discussion. Roleplayers are completely capable of inventing their own structure, and by nature of what they enjoy, holding true to it.
That would be some real PVP.
And this back when they had a monopoly, eh? :P
RPing often gets used as an excuse for PKing. "My character is a mass murderer, don't tread on my RP!"
--
Anyways, the main issue with a "Real PVP" game is finding enough people who actually give a rat's patut about random PVP to attract money.
You're pretty much forever stuck with indie games, as such, unless there's a shift in the demographic itself, which is unlikely.
EDIT: I actually had the privilege of roleplaying a mass-murderer as part of a three year long ongoing storyline, and the only actual murdering I did was the initial murdering, where it became apparent that blah blah plotline stuff. The issue that arose, and the beauty of not having the actual combat scripted, was that I actually deposed of the leader of the guard who we expected to kill me and so the storyline evolved around that.
Just the same, despite being an unchecked mass-murderer and public enemy at large, I didn't kill anyone outside of NPCs or other characters that were technically under my control (alts), and even then largely in prose. The storyline came to focus on my redemption, and we utilized in-game elements like monster spawns/drops to bring the event to the community at large. My being the quintessential kill-happy villain did not mean people died for no good reason, it meant that NPCs died in prose and the other PCs got to partake in various quests rich in plot, dialogue, and inter-community strife.
Fuck, people killed one another because of me, but I didn't do the killing. The storylines evolved on their own, and each fight had a purpose.
But I managed to fulfil a claim I made of being killed by love after seven years of play, which was just awesome.
Pure-RP PVP is pretty great if you can weed out the horribly worthless people enough.
Real PvP is called murder.
Yup, when they had a monopoly and anytime you said "MMORPG" people would ask if it was a government agency. "What, like the CIA?" UO was groundbreaking. You couldn't explain the game without first explaining that you were playing with thousands of other people at once. 500,000 should be adjusted for inflation, no one knew it existed and no video game magazines new how to review/cover it.
And most everyone got the hell out as soon as other options showed up. :P
I know one of said.
I get the impression that the modern UO is AO. :oops:
I imagine it has to do with being best-known to the Gen X crowd, while the kiddies go for newer things, and being text-heavy and editable, allowing for easier RP.