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New MMO's with REAL PvP?

WraithXt1WraithXt1 Registered User regular
edited November 2007 in MMO Extravaganza
I lust for an MMO with real PvP to come out. I'm talking REAL PvP here. Yes yes, I know Eve has a great PvP system, but Eve just isnt my cup of tea.

When I say real PvP, I mean Ultima online, before the PvP nerfs (Hell, even after). I want to die, and wonder who killed me, why, and where they are going with all of my items. I want to get a few friends and ruin someones day. I want to FEAR players that are known PKs. I want a REASON to kill another player!

Also, a player run economy. Wow, that would be something else.

Please, please, please PA Forum Goers, tell me there is a game like this being released.

WraithXt1 on
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Posts

  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    For one thing, I don't think there's another major MMO at all coming out til Warhammer, which is still a ways out.


    For another, I think most MMOers have decided they hate the kind of thing you're talking about, and MMO devs have followed.

  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'd look into Warhammer and Age of Conan, but while both focus pretty heavily on the PVP mechanics and gameplay, I don't believe either of them have anything resembling what you desire.

    If anything, perhaps Conan might be closer, as there are player/guild built cities, and I believe they have to repel both NPC and Player invasions (though I'm unsure of the latter).

    PS: play however you like, but players like you are why I don't play on PVP servers in WoW. Nothing judgemental, just thought I'd share.

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  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Some PvP servers on EQ1 were like that.
    I heard they added PvP servers to EQ2, might want to ask around in that thread.

  • drhazarddrhazard Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    What's with this Fury game that came out recently? Everything I could find about it says it's all-instanced arena combat, based solely on PVP, but I can't find any critical reviews or anything. I was kind of interested, but I don't want to plunk down money on a chance.

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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Heh, that's a nice definition for specific type of pvp that is not the definition of "Real" pvp.

    I think you're going to have to go with old games for this. Asheron's Call has a pretty much player created economy and a pretty hardcore pvp server.

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  • Asamof the HorribleAsamof the Horrible Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I never played fury myself, but I heard a bunch of people saying it was horrible, so I dunno.

    and the closest thing to that sounds like EVE, but since it aint your thing you're out of luck

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Runescape has a pretty severe death penalty...if you die you lose all but your three most valuable items, and if you've attacked another player recently, you lose all your items.

    Although, the only place you can attack other players is in specific areas, and the Wilderness, which is a big area.

    When I last played about eight months ago, there really wasn't "much" reason to go into the wilderness, if you didn't want to die, so PvP was mainly between player killers, and not player killers vs non player killers.

    But it still works well.

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  • HarshLanguageHarshLanguage Registered User
    edited November 2007
    It's always amusing how the folks who want griefing-style PVP consider all other forms of PVP to be inferior.

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It's always amusing how the folks who want griefing-style PVP consider all other forms of PVP to be inferior.
    It's more "there should be no reason that if get 20 angry barbarians that we can't come and rape your ill-defended town with a single guard"

  • WraithXt1WraithXt1 Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It's always amusing how the folks who want griefing-style PVP consider all other forms of PVP to be inferior.

    Griefing style PvP?

    Have ANY of you played Ultima online? It is quite amazing how the state of MMO gaming has gone backwards two steps since then! A player run economy, free pvp with REASONS to pvp.

    I just want a game that give you a reason to pvp other than, Oh hey look, an Orc! I'll kill him so he runs back to his corpse, yay I feel special!

    Come on Devs, look at how Ultima did the pvp system, look at how eve does it. It adds another entire level of interaction to the game!

    WraithXt1.png
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It's always amusing how the folks who want griefing-style PVP consider all other forms of PVP to be inferior.
    It's more "there should be no reason that if get 20 angry barbarians that we can't come and rape your ill-defended town with a single guard"

    More accurately "I want to be able to get 20 angry barbarians to come and rape your ill-defended town and make the game horrendously user unfriendly."

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  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Wraith, have you looked into the Conan MMO yet?

  • SabanSaban Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Fury
    Spoiler:

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  • padrescoutpadrescout Registered User
    edited November 2007
    I played UO from day one for about 2 years. I recall its " reason" to PvP mostly involved " hey, I don't like you and I want to ruin your day" This was a very give and take thing, but I never picked nor ever received a fight for any greater reason than one of us was trying to give the other a hard time. So yeah, griefing PvP is pretty accurate.

  • Xenocide GeekXenocide Geek Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    i believe right now a debate is going on with how the PvP in Age of Conan is gonna be.

    it looks like it could be servers with full loot pvp, servers with partial loot, you can only take their inventory, they take damage to items, whatever.

    it's still really up in the air. i think the dev's have said they want to include a fairly hefty penalty towards dieing in PvP, ala losing all your shit.

    it's the only MMO i'm excited for.

    edit: also, realistic pvp IS the only pvp system worth anything at all. fucking carebears!

    i wanted love, i needed love
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It's always amusing how the folks who want griefing-style PVP consider all other forms of PVP to be inferior.
    It's more "there should be no reason that if get 20 angry barbarians that we can't come and rape your ill-defended town with a single guard"

    More accurately "I want to be able to get 20 angry barbarians to come and rape your ill-defended town and make the game horrendously user unfriendly."
    Which is why you design safe areas and unsafe areas. The point is carefully balanced PvP in an MMO is kind of retarded because you start taking all the things out of war which MMOs should be able to allow and leave only the things they tend to do not so well - 1v1's in an MMO are and remain the stupidest things people do because oh look spreadsheets online!

    Whereas, when you don't try and carefully balance the conditions PvP happens under, then strategy, controlling the tactical situation, setting up traps, intelligence and of course the charisma and people-skills of actually being a good leader all come into it.

    The propaganda wars, spying and counter-spying and metagame of EVE are as much a part of it as the actual internet spaceships and they're what makes it interesting, because they bring all the uncontrolled parts of war to an MMO - which is what you want. Carefully balanced PvP is done better by TF2/deathmatch servers.

  • KimFidlerKimFidler Registered User
    edited November 2007
    What about WoW??

    Running around in a battleground with no death penalty, and a 30 second rez timer is pvp isn't it?

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Apparently no, it's not.

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  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    "Real" PvP, from what I can gather, is PvP where there is a significant and permanent penalty to losing. In most cases this is some combination of gear, money, and time. The majority of people who play MMOs don't want the danger of "real" PvP and thus it's been bred out of MMOs for the most part, EvE being an exception.

  • SatorigreenSatorigreen Registered User
    edited November 2007
    For starters, you whining carebears, you make me sick, you really do.

    Seriously go back to Tic, Tac, Toe or go play hangman with your mommy, if you can't handle real PVP.

    I agree with the main poster. The market is desperately in need of real PVP like Pre Trammel Ultima Online, 10six and Eve Online.

    There are many different types of PVP.

    But there are basically two types of PVP out there. Lossless PVP/PVE and Asset Loss/Gain PVP, for the simpletons out there who need everything spelled out to them in baby speak and can't work out that each individual game is it's own permutation of dimensions, drawn from an essentially infinite number of factors. Ie - each game is different and can be designed in an infinite number of ways based upon the person or group of people, who are designing the games, wishes.

    There is definitely room for lossless PVP and Asset Loss/Gain PVP type game designs in the marketplace.

    Lossless PVP - One fights against players but nothing is really gained or lost of any real significance. Ie WOW.

    Asset Loss/Gain PVP - There are real assets in the game that can be won and lost by killing your opponent.


    The latter is the only PVP that really matters to me. I like to feel the gain and loss of my personal assets. I like the rush of fear when I am under attack or defending. I want to feel genuine fear when I am wardecced by a superior force. I want to feel something when I play a game.

    All you whining carebear babies who can't handle Asset Loss PVP always act superior, like somehow being a total happy happy, joy joy carebear is the be all and end all of gaming. There is more than enough room in the market right now for well designed Asset Loss/Gain PVP.

    The thing with Asset Loss/Gain PVP is the game has to be completely designed around the concept. You can't have items so hard to get that losing it is to high of a risk to fight with it. Then again you have to be able to design the game with items that actually have enough value that losing it will hurt. Asset Loss/Gain pvp is a whole game design ethos in itself. The game has to be designed around the concept. You can't have the nigh on impossible to get legendary gear from WOW being able to be looted of your corpse the second you step out of Org. Asset Loss/Gain PVP doesn't work in games like WOW or Everquest, but Ultima Online pulled it off wonderfully. You could go out in top end gear if you were prepared to lose it and it would give you an edge and if you lost a fight and lost the gear you felt it. Same deal with the Titans and Capital Ships in Eve you would feel it if you lost one but they can be rebuilt with time and effort.

    Suck my testicles Carebears and stick to the cuddly fluffy bunny games you like but don't for a second think your little fairy floss and candyed grass Carebear huggy worlds are for everyone.

    I'm sick to death of all the dull as shit game design around for the last few years.

    LONG LIVE GAMES LIKE ULTIMA ONLINE, EVE ONLINE AND 10SIX/PROJECT VISITOR.

    Nothing judgemental, just thought I would share.

  • HarshLanguageHarshLanguage Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Opty wrote: »
    "Real" PvP, from what I can gather, is PvP where there is a significant and permanent penalty to losing. In most cases this is some combination of gear, money, and time. The majority of people who play MMOs don't want the danger of "real" PvP and thus it's been bred out of MMOs for the most part, EvE being an exception.

    It's not the "danger" that's the problem. It's the annoyance, inconvenience, cost (time and money), and most importantly, lack of fun for the loser. We are talking about old-school gank-style PKing where the ganker is incredibly strong compared to the victim and also picks the time/location of the fight, yes? That's what takes it beyond just "danger." And that's what most folks don't want. They want to have fun, not feel constantly threatened.

    And how in the heck does a player-run economy go hand-in-hand with that sort of PVP, anyway? They're not connected. (Even if you consider players manipulating the market to be PVP.)

    Edit: And I submit the post above mine as an example of the sort of attitude that makes hardcore-PVP-MMOs distinctly unfun for most people.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It's a GAME.

    All you can ever lose ever is time/money (pay to play) you invest in it.

    Old School gankfests just have larger stakes of time. Gee. You lose a month and $15 dollars instead of an hour and .50 cents. HARDCORE, possibly due entirely to LAG. :P

    May as well play bingo, at least you can WIN as well. :lol:

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  • SatorigreenSatorigreen Registered User
    edited November 2007
    I'm just pointing out there is room for -

    -Lossless PVP/PVE heavy worlds

    -And brutal as hell, heart thumping, blood pumping, adrenalin rushing Asset Loss/Gain PVP.

    There arn't many examples of true Asset Loss/Gain PVP yet in the history of gaming that are decent examples of the genre.

    Computers havn't been around that long and decent computers with high end graphics have been around for even less time. Some day a design team will create really amazing Asset Loss/Gain PVP with amazing gameplay that really blows the mind. But right now people who want that style of gaming don't have many choices.

    While PVE/Lossless PVP games are in abundence. However just because something is mainstream and the majority of people like it doesn't mean it's a good thing. Being in the majority doesn't make something great it just means you your part of the main flock of sheep out there who like life dull and boring.

    Well there are people out there who prefer the rush. Don't get me wrong I love games like WOW, I think WOW is probably one of the best games ever designed, if not the number 1 best game of all time so far. But I wish someone with the brilliance of the Blizzard design team would bring us hardcore PVPers, some Asset Loss/Gain PVP that's of the same level of excellence in game design as World of Warcraft.

    I doubt we'll see such a game any time soon. Blizzard as a design team have pretty much blown every other game design company out of the water in relation to excellence in game design and raised the bar so high that I can't see many companies or any that I know of reaching their level.

    But after over three years of WOW and after being a guild leader of three guilds and playing it to death. I am totally bored of that type of game model.

    10six which is now called Project Visitor is one of the VERY best and one of the most little known examples in gaming history of Asset Loss/Gain PVP. Due pretty much completely to absolute mismanagement, this was a tragedy in the history of gaming. I mention the game whenever I can in the vain hope some game developer or designer will copy the design so I can play a game as incredable as this again one day. When you got wardecced in that game you felt FEAR. Your heart would skip a beat. You could feel war simmering around you. Every time an alarm went off, you'd jump out of your seat in fear. Multiple incursions into your bases, would start to set off multiple alarms, each and every alarm would freak you out. Complete and utter mayhem and hell would break loose while you fought HARD to protect your bases. The enemies numbers entering your bases and your freinds bases would multiply. Seriously, the pressure would be ON and the sweat would be on your brow. You rallyed to the side of your comrades or died and payed a heavy price. It was fun.

    Tell me that people who lose 150 billion iskies worth of TITAN CAPITAL SPACESHIP don't have their minds really blown by the experience. I mean it's the same feeling as taking down a hardcore raid boss in WOW you get a rush, you feel something. It's just a different kind of experience. But Both Lossless PVP/PVE and Asset Loss/Gain PVP are both as valid gaming experiences as each other.

    I just get so sick of hearing carebears act like Lossless PVP/PVE is the be and end all of gaming. It's not hey. I'v been playing computer games since the Spectrum ZX48k man and trust me I'm bored of games where there is no risk. I'm just over it. I'v played it all and I'v seen it all. And I'm fucking bored. What I do know is that I like my games to feel like I'm losing and gaining stuff depending on how much risk I want to take.

    And I submit that the post two above mine is exactly the same type of braindead, mainstream, carebear, sheep mentality, mediocrity that's pretty much killing gaming as a genre for anyone who has an actually refined taste in relation to gaming. Nothing judgemental, just thought I'd share.

  • Shazbot!Shazbot! __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    10six which is now called Project Visitor is one of the VERY best examples in gaming history of Asset Loss/Gain PVP. When you got wardecced in that game you felt FEAR. Your heart would skip a beat. You could feel war simmering around you. Every time an alarm went off, you'd jump out of your seat in fear. And you rallyed to the side of your comrades or died and payed a heavy price. It was fun.

    You're a very scary man. Runs and hides.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The vast majority of people don't find high-stakes PVP entertaining, so they're a foolish market for huge productions. Especially since many people are still plagued with horrible lag.

    Lag really really makes high stakes games suck ass.

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  • SabanSaban Registered User
    edited November 2007
    WoW PVP is remarkably repetitive for no real long term gain of any sort.

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  • Xenocide GeekXenocide Geek Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    man, go back 9-10 years and look at all the comments, stories, web comics, whatever, in regards to UO.

    lag happened. you lost all your shit.

    sorry. i guess it's time to get some stuff back.

    man i wish another game like UO/Shadowbane would come out. here's to hoping for AoC!

    i wanted love, i needed love
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    someone said true love was dead
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    bound to fall for you
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  • SabanSaban Registered User
    edited November 2007
    The world cannot survive another Shadowbane.

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  • Asamof the HorribleAsamof the Horrible Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    the whole real risk real danger PvP always makes me think of playing a 10,000 hour long singleplayer game where there's a 1 in 3 chance that I'll get a random game over every 5 minutes

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Gods.

    It would be like rep-grinding in WoW with the occasional random reset to neutral. D:

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  • MonoxideMonoxide Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    I think the problem with how some of you are looking at 'griefing-style' pvp is that you haven't experienced it first hand, or didn't stick with a game that featured it due to a bad experience. The game has to be designed around it from the bottom up. In a game like WoW, losing things in PvP would suck because of the time investment required to achieve them.

    In UO, you didn't spend months in a raid trying to get some epic or whatever, which made losing things more acceptable. In EVE you simply fly what you can afford to lose, as every ship has a role. Even the 750k frigate that you can buy 20 of after a day's worth of moneymaking is worthwhile in a group.

    Risk/reward in pvp usually makes the game a hell of a lot more interesting, so long as it's made for it. Current popular MMOs are not.

    e: also, pointless risk sucks. there has to be a positive aspect to it. FFXI's deleveling if you died fucking blew

  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    man, go back 9-10 years and look at all the comments, stories, web comics, whatever, in regards to UO.

    lag happened. you lost all your shit.

    sorry. i guess it's time to get some stuff back.

    man i wish another game like UO/Shadowbane would come out. here's to hoping for AoC!

    On what fucked up planet would that be fun?

    Shit, you don't even need a new game. Just contact Blizzard and ask them to have a GM come in and randomly delete your equipment and gold with no notice, whenever and however often they want.

    Maybe have them randomly kill your character in the middle of a boss fight, whatever.

    Because yeah, that would be awesome.

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  • CrashmoCrashmo Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    WoW pvp is more like a standard multiplayer FPS than anything, like fantasy Day of Defeat. Run in, kill some stuff, die, spawn, run in, lag, die, spawn, lather, rinse, and repeat.

    I love Day of Defeat, and WoW PvP can be fun...but it really feels inconsequential when you kill someone or die. I'd be happy with just being able to get like 5% of THEIR cash.

    But then again, I'd rather they just revamped world PvP somehow, instead of nerfing it every other patch.

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  • padrescoutpadrescout Registered User
    edited November 2007
    For starters, you whining carebears, you make me sick, you really do.

    Seriously go back to Tic, Tac, Toe or go play hangman with your mommy, if you can't handle real PVP.


    ...

    Suck my testicles Carebears and stick to the cuddly fluffy bunny games you like but don't for a second think your little fairy floss and candyed grass Carebear huggy worlds are for everyone.

    ...

    Nothing judgemental, just thought I would share.

    no man, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

  • Xenocide GeekXenocide Geek Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    man, go back 9-10 years and look at all the comments, stories, web comics, whatever, in regards to UO.

    lag happened. you lost all your shit.

    sorry. i guess it's time to get some stuff back.

    man i wish another game like UO/Shadowbane would come out. here's to hoping for AoC!

    On what fucked up planet would that be fun?

    Shit, you don't even need a new game. Just contact Blizzard and ask them to have a GM come in and randomly delete your equipment and gold with no notice, whenever and however often they want.

    Maybe have them randomly kill your character in the middle of a boss fight, whatever.

    Because yeah, that would be awesome.

    it's 100% up to you.

    yeah, okay, a power outage occurs during a storm in your area. you best not be in a fucking area where you can get ganked, considering you know there's a chance your power will go out. this is common sense. anybody who has played a game where you can lose your shit understands that.

    but in every other scenario, it's all up to you. it's up to you to either get away, kill the person, or not be in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

    pvp without consequences is so fucking boring. you might as well go play a single player game with no consequences/saves.

    i wanted love, i needed love
    most of all, most of all
    someone said true love was dead
    but i'm bound to fall
    bound to fall for you
    oh what can i do
  • SatorigreenSatorigreen Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Lossless PVP/PVE - All good and fine np, Everquest, WOW, DAOC. The game has to be designed around that kind of game philosophy and currently Blizzard has set the bar so high I can't see anyone catching up to them for years. Although I hold out hope that some game designer will surprise me.

    http://www.blackprophecy.com/.

    I'm betting Age of Conan is playable but I don't know hey, I'm pretty burnt out on lossless PVP/PVE game designs they just all seem the same these days. It's not currently clear how looting and assets will be handled in Age of Conan, it might be nothing more than a souped up WOW battleground with bells on.

    Asset Loss/Gain PVP - Ultima Online, Project Visitor(One of the single best game designs in the history of gaming IMO and it's still around albeit in a watered down form), Eve Online.

    To have Asset Loss/Gain PVP the entire game has to be designed around it. But it can be done and the games that are created with this game design philosophy freaken pwn.

    Tell you how I feel?

    I feel like if I see one more Orc, Gnome, Dwarf, Elf or Barbarian, Wizard, or Shaman I am going to go fucking postal.

  • HarshLanguageHarshLanguage Registered User
    edited November 2007
    So. Much. Anger. O_o

    Really interesting to see such angry posts from people who desire high-risk/reward PvP in MMOs. But I'm glad some folks here can discuss it rationally. Because, you know, NEWS FLASH: People have fun in different ways!

    Edit: Also, yes, EVE does PvP well, and is designed around it. Which is why EVE attracts the folks it does, and survives in its (small) niche. But it has more than one type of PvP, and a lot of people would love the game and its 0.0 PvP if the low-sec/high-sec griefing/ganking were to go away. Of course, that wouldn't be EVE.

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    > turn on light

    Good start to the day. Pity it's going to be the worst one of your life. The light is now on.
  • MonoxideMonoxide Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    man, go back 9-10 years and look at all the comments, stories, web comics, whatever, in regards to UO.

    lag happened. you lost all your shit.

    sorry. i guess it's time to get some stuff back.

    man i wish another game like UO/Shadowbane would come out. here's to hoping for AoC!

    On what fucked up planet would that be fun?

    Shit, you don't even need a new game. Just contact Blizzard and ask them to have a GM come in and randomly delete your equipment and gold with no notice, whenever and however often they want.

    Maybe have them randomly kill your character in the middle of a boss fight, whatever.

    Because yeah, that would be awesome.

    Please point out to me any equipment you'd be wearing in UO that took months to achieve like raid loot does in WoW. Or anything you killed in UO that took 40 players (fine, 25 now) and 5 hours of clearing the dungeon leading up to it in order to all perform a perfectly executed kill where one key player dying can ruin it for everyone.

    It's not the same thing. At all. If WoW had fully open PvP or equipment loss, the game would suck. Period.

  • Soviet WaffleSoviet Waffle Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Quick question, don't most of the hardcore PvP Games involve less in terms of combat items? (I'm not sure). I mean the couple I remember had like 8 max, compared to WoW that has 16 slots (Maybe more) and different sets for different things?

    That would also make Hardcore PvP in WoW setting useless. Since gear sets have different stats, no matter how good you are that 5/5 Merc Glad is going to have a huge upper hand on you.

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  • SatorigreenSatorigreen Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Please point out to me any equipment you'd be wearing in UO that took months to achieve like raid loot does in WoW. Or anything you killed in UO that took 40 players (fine, 25 now) and 5 hours of clearing the dungeon leading up to it in order to all perform a perfectly executed kill where one key player dying can ruin it for everyone.

    It's not the same thing. At all. If WoW had fully open PvP or equipment loss, the game would suck. Period.

    Geez man how do you even work out how to bring the spoon to your mouth in the morning when you eat breakfast or dinner.

    Lossless PVP/PVE - All good and fine np, Everquest, WOW, DAOC. The game has to be designed around that kind of game philosophy and currently Blizzard has set the bar so high I can't see anyone catching up to them for years. Although I hold out hope that some game designer will surprise me.

    http://www.blackprophecy.com/.

    You can't have fully open PVP in a game like WOW it's not designed for it.

    Asset Loss/Gain PVP - Ultima Online, Project Visitor(One of the single best game designs in the history of gaming IMO and it's still around albeit in a watered down form), Eve Online.

    To have Asset Loss/Gain PVP the entire game has to be designed around it. But it can be done and the games that are created with this game design philosophy freaken pwn.

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