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New MMO's with REAL PvP?

17891012

Posts

  • falsedeffalsedef Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Little Jim wrote: »
    certainly dudes that are really good will beat other dudes with better gear, but it is a huge factor in the game

    I'm not sure how much gear is a factor in Burning Crusade, but I played level 1-60 naked and PVPed naked just fine (blue/green weapon and non visibles, of course). WoW isn't competitive due to many more factors than just gear, namely trees/class and environment. One of the largest factors in the game will always be luck.

  • Grandaddy DeliciousGrandaddy Delicious Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Oboro wrote: »
    Hokay.

    Find me someone who's willing to go from level 70 to 40 and not eBay the account, using the World of Warcraft analogy you've made.

    Stat loss in Ultima Online meant waiting for your powerhour and grinding out that powerhour, which was aptly-named, and took about an hour. After that was removed, it meant AFKing and macroing your skills up while on a boat; nothing even close to 100 hours to get back to your previous level.

    lulz

    Hokay, the time we are talking about was before power-hour when skill gains were hella slow, hell, leveling slow. Unattended macroing got you banned, and this wasn't anywhere near the period post-powerhour where skill gain was drastically increased.

    Did you even play during the dreadlord days? I'm starting to question your knowledge in-game, and that isn't a dig at your personally, it's a dig at you ability to criticize what you are not educated about.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Grandaddy DeliciousGrandaddy Delicious Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    So you want:

    Characters are unimportant / disposable, lest we have gear escalation or something similar
    Open-ended PvP where you can do whatever you want, including randomly ganking people...
    Except wait, no, I don't want random ganking. Punish characters who do that.
    Oh wait, we can't do that, because they can just create a new character and bypass the penalty.
    Uh...

    Seriously, what the hell, yes, other characters can go to town if your character is red, but if you kill the muderer they drop from level seventy to level forty. How can they bypass that with another character? Every time I bring this up you ignore it and then a page later ask "But there aren't any penalties!" Yes there are, it is right here, they drop from level 70 to 40, I'll bold it so you don't forget next page.

    You keep on fucking saying that but it's not true. I haven't played UO in forever, but I'm fairly sure the difference is infinitely closer to 70-69. If even that.

    Besides, all character advancement was just macroing anyway. Loss of stats and skills was literally nothing more than a loss of time you wouldn't be spending playing the game anyway. UO may have gotten some things right, but other things were oh so very wrong.

    And my point wasn't a jab at UO. It was a jab at your inherently contradictory concept of a "real" MMO.

    The hell you say? I can't even argue with you anymore, you are just trolling trying to make me mad. Saying that statloss was like dropping from level 70 to level 69 is the most ludicrous freaking example I've ever heard. And as for macroing, just read the last post I made. I swear to God, I can't even read your posts anymore they are so full of veiled trolling.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    falsedef wrote: »
    Little Jim wrote: »
    certainly dudes that are really good will beat other dudes with better gear, but it is a huge factor in the game

    I'm not sure how much gear is a factor in Burning Crusade, but I played level 1-60 naked and PVPed naked just fine (blue/green weapon and non visibles, of course). WoW isn't competitive due to many more factors than just gear, namely trees/class and environment. One of the largest factors in the game will always be luck.

    the arena has "redefined" WoW pvp, which used to be a nice, fun, group environment kind of thing, to a boring as hell 2v2/3v3/5v5 deathmatch

    pvp epics are more or less a requirement to get an arena rating over 1800 (which, I'd say, is a pretty hefty gear grind)

    th_crabz.png
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    So you want:

    Characters are unimportant / disposable, lest we have gear escalation or something similar
    Open-ended PvP where you can do whatever you want, including randomly ganking people...
    Except wait, no, I don't want random ganking. Punish characters who do that.
    Oh wait, we can't do that, because they can just create a new character and bypass the penalty.
    Uh...

    Seriously, what the hell, yes, other characters can go to town if your character is red, but if you kill the muderer they drop from level seventy to level forty. How can they bypass that with another character? Every time I bring this up you ignore it and then a page later ask "But there aren't any penalties!" Yes there are, it is right here, they drop from level 70 to 40, I'll bold it so you don't forget next page.

    You keep on fucking saying that but it's not true. I haven't played UO in forever, but I'm fairly sure the difference is infinitely closer to 70-69. If even that.

    Besides, all character advancement was just macroing anyway. Loss of stats and skills was literally nothing more than a loss of time you wouldn't be spending playing the game anyway. UO may have gotten some things right, but other things were oh so very wrong.

    And my point wasn't a jab at UO. It was a jab at your inherently contradictory concept of a "real" MMO.

    The hell you say? I can't even argue with you anymore, you are just trolling trying to make me mad. Saying that statloss was like dropping from level 70 to level 69 is the most ludicrous freaking example I've ever heard. And as for macroing, just read the last post I made. I swear to God, I can't even read your posts anymore they are so full of veiled trolling.

    I think you haven't played World of Warcraft enough to make the value judgement that statloss in whatever-the-fuck-frame-of-reference-you've-never-specified UO is equal to going from level 70 to level 40.

    Man, the position I'm in is like somebody with a PhD in forum trolling trying to argue with somebody who only knows of it through Wikipedia. The idiot "knows" that they're right, but really, they're just fucking wrong and apparently will never realize it.

    Pony_Sig.png
  • Grandaddy DeliciousGrandaddy Delicious Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    So you want:

    Characters are unimportant / disposable, lest we have gear escalation or something similar
    Open-ended PvP where you can do whatever you want, including randomly ganking people...
    Except wait, no, I don't want random ganking. Punish characters who do that.
    Oh wait, we can't do that, because they can just create a new character and bypass the penalty.
    Uh...

    Seriously, what the hell, yes, other characters can go to town if your character is red, but if you kill the muderer they drop from level seventy to level forty. How can they bypass that with another character? Every time I bring this up you ignore it and then a page later ask "But there aren't any penalties!" Yes there are, it is right here, they drop from level 70 to 40, I'll bold it so you don't forget next page.

    You keep on fucking saying that but it's not true. I haven't played UO in forever, but I'm fairly sure the difference is infinitely closer to 70-69. If even that.

    Besides, all character advancement was just macroing anyway. Loss of stats and skills was literally nothing more than a loss of time you wouldn't be spending playing the game anyway. UO may have gotten some things right, but other things were oh so very wrong.

    And my point wasn't a jab at UO. It was a jab at your inherently contradictory concept of a "real" MMO.

    The hell you say? I can't even argue with you anymore, you are just trolling trying to make me mad. Saying that statloss was like dropping from level 70 to level 69 is the most ludicrous freaking example I've ever heard. And as for macroing, just read the last post I made. I swear to God, I can't even read your posts anymore they are so full of veiled trolling.

    I think you haven't played World of Warcraft enough to make the value judgement that statloss in whatever-the-fuck-frame-of-reference-you've-never-specified UO is equal to going from level 70 to level 40.

    Man, the position I'm in is like somebody with a PhD in forum trolling trying to argue with somebody who only knows of it through Wikipedia. The idiot "knows" that they're right, but really, they're just fucking wrong and apparently will never realize it.

    Josheb 70 Shadow Priest
    Benaiah 70 Resto shaman
    Ehud 62 Rogue
    Zaccheus 58 Rogue
    Malachi 70 Warrior
    A plethora of mid 30s alts

    Yeah, probably haven't played enough. I'm sorry, did you care to compare /played as well?

    P.S. This is me showing that I can make a good argument because I have experience on both sides, so I'm not blindly pulling for one side or the other. I never quit something that I don't like right off the bat. *smiles*

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Little Jim wrote: »
    falsedef wrote: »
    Little Jim wrote: »
    certainly dudes that are really good will beat other dudes with better gear, but it is a huge factor in the game

    I'm not sure how much gear is a factor in Burning Crusade, but I played level 1-60 naked and PVPed naked just fine (blue/green weapon and non visibles, of course). WoW isn't competitive due to many more factors than just gear, namely trees/class and environment. One of the largest factors in the game will always be luck.

    the arena has "redefined" WoW pvp, which used to be a nice, fun, group environment kind of thing, to a boring as hell 2v2/3v3/5v5 deathmatch

    pvp epics are more or less a requirement to get an arena rating over 1800 (which, I'd say, is a pretty hefty gear grind)

    The arena didn't remove one iota of PvP that used to be in World of Warcraft. It was an addition, not a replacement. And I find it fucking hilarious that you complain about not being able to achieve a higher rating without getting gear. Why? Because achieving a higher rating only serves to net you more gear. It's like complaining you can't kill Illidan wearing nothing but a fucking Ripped Ogre Loincloth. No shit!

    So guys, what's with PvE these days requiring you to complete prerequisite content? What is up with that?

    But seriously folks... what would you rather happen? Everybody entering the PvP arenas gets kitted out with standard-issue gear? Hey, let's also remove all talents. And classes. And give them Gravity Guns and a pistol, scattering more powerful weapons around the area at random, such as grenades and shotguns and rocket launchers. Yeah. That'd be cool.

    Pony_Sig.png
  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    OH NO I OBVIOUSLY AM NOT EDUCATED MY WORDS NO LONGER MEAN THINGS GRANDDADDY BEAT ME

    No one ever got banned for unattended macroing because you sat at your PC while you did it; it's the same way it happens today. There wasn't even much reason, anyway, because in the Dread Lord days all you needed to do was grind Magery to 75 and spam Energy Bolt with your friends at the hapless loser who wandered over to the Lich/Daemon spawn hoping to gain enough fame to be a Dread Lord just like you.

    It was a retarded era in a retarded game, and I'm not sad to see it gone. The people who whined most about stat loss were the people who over-invested-- unless your target had macroed to GM Resist Spells by having one of his friends summon a Daemon off of a scroll and then sat there while healing through its casts, there was no need to have Magery/Evaluating Int above 75 besides for show/something you grinded up in downtime.

    The dexxer didn't become a viable template until the advent of trapped pouches as para-breakers and player housing giving a way to break line of sight-- I mean, 90% of the ganking outside of Britain happened where people would hide in their house, run out to nuke you, and run back in before they could be killed themselves. Was that honorable? Fun?

    It was retarded.

    words
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    So you want:

    Characters are unimportant / disposable, lest we have gear escalation or something similar
    Open-ended PvP where you can do whatever you want, including randomly ganking people...
    Except wait, no, I don't want random ganking. Punish characters who do that.
    Oh wait, we can't do that, because they can just create a new character and bypass the penalty.
    Uh...

    Seriously, what the hell, yes, other characters can go to town if your character is red, but if you kill the muderer they drop from level seventy to level forty. How can they bypass that with another character? Every time I bring this up you ignore it and then a page later ask "But there aren't any penalties!" Yes there are, it is right here, they drop from level 70 to 40, I'll bold it so you don't forget next page.

    You keep on fucking saying that but it's not true. I haven't played UO in forever, but I'm fairly sure the difference is infinitely closer to 70-69. If even that.

    Besides, all character advancement was just macroing anyway. Loss of stats and skills was literally nothing more than a loss of time you wouldn't be spending playing the game anyway. UO may have gotten some things right, but other things were oh so very wrong.

    And my point wasn't a jab at UO. It was a jab at your inherently contradictory concept of a "real" MMO.

    The hell you say? I can't even argue with you anymore, you are just trolling trying to make me mad. Saying that statloss was like dropping from level 70 to level 69 is the most ludicrous freaking example I've ever heard. And as for macroing, just read the last post I made. I swear to God, I can't even read your posts anymore they are so full of veiled trolling.

    I think you haven't played World of Warcraft enough to make the value judgement that statloss in whatever-the-fuck-frame-of-reference-you've-never-specified UO is equal to going from level 70 to level 40.

    Man, the position I'm in is like somebody with a PhD in forum trolling trying to argue with somebody who only knows of it through Wikipedia. The idiot "knows" that they're right, but really, they're just fucking wrong and apparently will never realize it.

    Josheb 70 Shadow Priest
    Benaiah 70 Resto shaman
    Ehud 62 Rogue
    Zaccheus 58 Rogue
    Malachi 70 Warrior
    A plethora of mid 30s alts

    Yeah, probably haven't played enough. I'm sorry, did you care to compare /played as well?

    How do you not get that I'm just mocking you? If you've actually played World of Warcraft, and still think that statloss in UO was in any way comparable to 70-40, then you're just fucking stupid. There's nothing to be said for it. We're talking about a 99% reduction in effectiveness, here.

    Pony_Sig.png
  • Grandaddy DeliciousGrandaddy Delicious Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Oboro wrote: »
    OH NO I OBVIOUSLY AM NOT EDUCATED MY WORDS NO LONGER MEAN THINGS GRANDDADDY BEAT ME

    No one ever got banned for unattended macroing because you sat at your PC while you did it; it's the same way it happens today. There wasn't even much reason, anyway, because in the Dread Lord days all you needed to do was grind Magery to 75 and spam Energy Bolt with your friends at the hapless loser who wandered over to the Lich/Daemon spawn hoping to gain enough fame to be a Dread Lord just like you.

    It was a retarded era in a retarded game, and I'm not sad to see it gone. The people who whined most about stat loss were the people who over-invested-- unless your target had macroed to GM Resist Spells by having one of his friends summon a Daemon off of a scroll and then sat there while healing through its casts, there was no need to have Magery/Evaluating Int above 75 besides for show/something you grinded up in downtime.

    The dexxer didn't become a viable template until the advent of trapped pouches as para-breakers and player housing giving a way to break line of sight-- I mean, 90% of the ganking outside of Britain happened where people would hide in their house, run out to nuke you, and run back in before they could be killed themselves. Was that honorable? Fun?

    It was retarded.

    I'm sorry, I could have sworn unattended meant not at your computer. Apparently in addition to admitting defeat you also have a poor grasp of what certain words actually mean. Saying things in sarcasm doesn't make them any less true. :) Further, if you had to sit at your computer for hours and hours to get back up to a competitive level, I think that's an adequate punishment.

    And no, the dexer didn't become a viable template until they added insta-hitting at 80 dex. Parapouches were an afterthought once insta-hitting was in. But this is all semantics. Further I think your putting magery/eval at 75 in those days is ridiculous. Yeah you had 75 magery and eval, if you wanted to die all the time. At 75 magery you STILL fizzle ebolt.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    Little Jim wrote: »
    falsedef wrote: »
    Little Jim wrote: »
    certainly dudes that are really good will beat other dudes with better gear, but it is a huge factor in the game

    I'm not sure how much gear is a factor in Burning Crusade, but I played level 1-60 naked and PVPed naked just fine (blue/green weapon and non visibles, of course). WoW isn't competitive due to many more factors than just gear, namely trees/class and environment. One of the largest factors in the game will always be luck.

    the arena has "redefined" WoW pvp, which used to be a nice, fun, group environment kind of thing, to a boring as hell 2v2/3v3/5v5 deathmatch

    pvp epics are more or less a requirement to get an arena rating over 1800 (which, I'd say, is a pretty hefty gear grind)

    The arena didn't remove one iota of PvP that used to be in World of Warcraft. It was an addition, not a replacement. And I find it fucking hilarious that you complain about not being able to achieve a higher rating without getting gear. Why? Because achieving a higher rating only serves to net you more gear. It's like complaining you can't kill Illidan wearing nothing but a fucking Ripped Ogre Loincloth. No shit!

    So guys, what's with PvE these days requiring you to complete prerequisite content? What is up with that?

    But seriously folks... what would you rather happen? Everybody entering the PvP arenas gets kitted out with standard-issue gear? Hey, let's also remove all talents. And classes. And give them Gravity Guns and a pistol, scattering more powerful weapons around the area at random, such as grenades and shotguns and rocket launchers. Yeah. That'd be cool.

    I'm not complaining, nor saying that I like it

    I hate the arena, because I think it's stupid and boring, which is what I think about all objective-less games (ie deathmatches in shooters)

    I'm saying that PvP in WoW is designed to be a huge fucking time sink, and requires a massive pre-grind before you start your real grind, just like everything else in WoW, just like pretty much every other MMO

    What people are trying to get at, is that they want to have an MMO that emphasizes the fun pvp encounters, not the various hoops you have to jump through before you can actually start enjoying yourselves

    th_crabz.png
  • Grandaddy DeliciousGrandaddy Delicious Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    So you want:

    Characters are unimportant / disposable, lest we have gear escalation or something similar
    Open-ended PvP where you can do whatever you want, including randomly ganking people...
    Except wait, no, I don't want random ganking. Punish characters who do that.
    Oh wait, we can't do that, because they can just create a new character and bypass the penalty.
    Uh...

    Seriously, what the hell, yes, other characters can go to town if your character is red, but if you kill the muderer they drop from level seventy to level forty. How can they bypass that with another character? Every time I bring this up you ignore it and then a page later ask "But there aren't any penalties!" Yes there are, it is right here, they drop from level 70 to 40, I'll bold it so you don't forget next page.

    You keep on fucking saying that but it's not true. I haven't played UO in forever, but I'm fairly sure the difference is infinitely closer to 70-69. If even that.

    Besides, all character advancement was just macroing anyway. Loss of stats and skills was literally nothing more than a loss of time you wouldn't be spending playing the game anyway. UO may have gotten some things right, but other things were oh so very wrong.

    And my point wasn't a jab at UO. It was a jab at your inherently contradictory concept of a "real" MMO.

    The hell you say? I can't even argue with you anymore, you are just trolling trying to make me mad. Saying that statloss was like dropping from level 70 to level 69 is the most ludicrous freaking example I've ever heard. And as for macroing, just read the last post I made. I swear to God, I can't even read your posts anymore they are so full of veiled trolling.

    I think you haven't played World of Warcraft enough to make the value judgement that statloss in whatever-the-fuck-frame-of-reference-you've-never-specified UO is equal to going from level 70 to level 40.

    Man, the position I'm in is like somebody with a PhD in forum trolling trying to argue with somebody who only knows of it through Wikipedia. The idiot "knows" that they're right, but really, they're just fucking wrong and apparently will never realize it.

    Josheb 70 Shadow Priest
    Benaiah 70 Resto shaman
    Ehud 62 Rogue
    Zaccheus 58 Rogue
    Malachi 70 Warrior
    A plethora of mid 30s alts

    Yeah, probably haven't played enough. I'm sorry, did you care to compare /played as well?

    How do you not get that I'm just mocking you? If you've actually played World of Warcraft, and still think that statloss in UO was in any way comparable to 70-40, then you're just fucking stupid. There's nothing to be said for it. We're talking about a 99% reduction in effectiveness, here.

    *rubs temples* Ok, i'm officially done with you. If you are just going to play it off like you are being sarcastic whenever I go out of my way to meet your needs in an argument, then it's not worth pursuing. I'm glad to have this thread though, it perfectly illustrates the need to break the stereotypes of idiot PvPers and well-spoken, calm, collected PvE players. You have done a great service for us all.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    75 Magery, you cast EBolt and Para 80% of the time. We're talking about viability for ganks, not fucking ubertemplates. Instahitting dexers still weren't viable because they were "kited" indefinitely by para coupled with explosion/energy bolt mana-dumps.

    Oh, and you're just being pedantic to say that it's not "unattended macroing" if you're sitting within sight of your PC and can respond to a GM when he shows up. Oh, yeah, usually they were masquerading as regular players, but big fucking whoop-- I can't think of anyone from that era and onward, for the next six years, who didn't macro something up while reading, watching television, or anything else.

    To compare it, again, to level 40-70 in World of Warcraft-- where literally hundreds of hours--

    HUNDREDS OF HOURS--

    are spent sitting at one's PC, attentively progressing, and only at the very last moment achieving world PvP viability, for all intents and purposes...

    I just. Don't get you, or this thread.

    words
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Little Jim wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    Little Jim wrote: »
    falsedef wrote: »
    Little Jim wrote: »
    certainly dudes that are really good will beat other dudes with better gear, but it is a huge factor in the game

    I'm not sure how much gear is a factor in Burning Crusade, but I played level 1-60 naked and PVPed naked just fine (blue/green weapon and non visibles, of course). WoW isn't competitive due to many more factors than just gear, namely trees/class and environment. One of the largest factors in the game will always be luck.

    the arena has "redefined" WoW pvp, which used to be a nice, fun, group environment kind of thing, to a boring as hell 2v2/3v3/5v5 deathmatch

    pvp epics are more or less a requirement to get an arena rating over 1800 (which, I'd say, is a pretty hefty gear grind)

    The arena didn't remove one iota of PvP that used to be in World of Warcraft. It was an addition, not a replacement. And I find it fucking hilarious that you complain about not being able to achieve a higher rating without getting gear. Why? Because achieving a higher rating only serves to net you more gear. It's like complaining you can't kill Illidan wearing nothing but a fucking Ripped Ogre Loincloth. No shit!

    So guys, what's with PvE these days requiring you to complete prerequisite content? What is up with that?

    But seriously folks... what would you rather happen? Everybody entering the PvP arenas gets kitted out with standard-issue gear? Hey, let's also remove all talents. And classes. And give them Gravity Guns and a pistol, scattering more powerful weapons around the area at random, such as grenades and shotguns and rocket launchers. Yeah. That'd be cool.

    I'm not complaining, nor that I like it

    I hate the arena, because I think it's stupid and boring, which is what I think about all objective-less games (ie deathmatches in shooters)

    I'm saying that PvP in WoW is designed to be a huge fucking time sink, and requires a massive pre-grind before you start your real grind, just like everything else in WoW, just like pretty much every other MMO

    What people are trying to get at, is that they want to have an MMO that emphasizes the fun pvp encounters, not the various hoops you have to jump through before you can actually start enjoying yourselves

    So what they want is a first-person shooter. Because "grind" is 90% of the time just a synonym for "advancement when I want my candy now."

    There's nothing stopping you from just having fun with the PvP system. Go grab a half-dozen people and occupy Southshore, or Tarren Mill. There's nothing stopping you from doing that except that you don't actually get anything from that, and your fucking solution is to throw up your hands and exclaim, "If I don't get a reward from doing whatever random ass-fucking thing I want to do, then nobody should get a reward for anything!"

    Why do you give half a shit about being "competitive" in the fucking arena? You can go in there with all greens and do just fine, after an initial bout of losing until your rating drops to the level where other people going in there with all greens land. It's just a number. It doesn't matter, except in the context where you wished it didn't matter. You're pissed off at something that shouldn't affect you if you really care about what you're pissed off about.

    Pony_Sig.png
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    So what they want is a first-person shooter. Because "grind" is 90% of the time just a synonym for "advancement when I want my candy now."

    There's nothing stopping you from just having fun with the PvP system. Go grab a half-dozen people and occupy Southshore, or Tarren Mill. There's nothing stopping you from doing that except that you don't actually get anything from that, and your fucking solution is to throw up your hands and exclaim, "If I don't get a reward from doing whatever random ass-fucking thing I want to do, then nobody should get a reward for anything!"

    Why do you give half a shit about being "competitive" in the fucking arena? You can go in there with all greens and do just fine, after an initial bout of losing until your rating drops to the level where other people going in there with all greens land. It's just a number. It doesn't matter, except in the context where you wished it didn't matter. You're pissed off at something that shouldn't affect you if you really care about what you're pissed off about.

    I do plenty of pvping; whenever I feel like it, though, I go to a battleground rather than the arena, because it so happens that there's an actual point to those rather than "fite pplz lole"

    and occupying southshore/TM fucking sucks when you are on the lowbie end of that deal, it really fucking does

    I just don't find the arena fun, at all

    maybe it's just me?

    who knows

    th_crabz.png
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    You know the better answer then "you suck" is why do people want a game where they can expect to make assumptions in PvP zones that people will not attack, external to anything else? I mean, EVE 0.0 rule 1: neutrals are Kill-On-Sight.

    A couple days late, but wasn't the saying "Not Blue, Shoot It"?

  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    So what are you complaining about? World of Warcraft has something you enjoy, so you do that. It has something you don't enjoy, so you don't do that. Where's the problem? Where's the flaw in the game?

    Pony_Sig.png
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    So what are you complaining about? World of Warcraft has something you enjoy, so you do that. It has something you don't enjoy, so you don't do that. Where's the problem? Where's the flaw in the game?

    I am not the one complaining

    I enjoy some of the pvp in WoW, but people that want a game designed for pvp do not look to WoW for an example

    a good example is guild wars, which as it turns out is getting shut down for a more "grind friendly" environment, which is kind of funny in my mind

    but my point is this: WoW is not a pvp MMO, it is an MMO in which you can PvP

    th_crabz.png
  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    I've brought up the Guild Wars analogy like twenty times, no one ever addresses why it's not what they want. They just ignore those two words.

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  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    I think it's due to the lack of polish, and to a certain extent (at least when I last played it) balance

    mesmers are a codeword for winning

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  • falsedeffalsedef Registered User
    edited November 2007
    I think grinds are stupid, being a raid robot is stupid, and being a greedy whore just for some pants is also stupid. I also don't want anyone to steal my pants.

    The most fun I have with RPGs is character customization and character strategy. That's where I want to spend the time. I could spend hours weighing the merits of skills and talents. I want to be able to have a multitude of choices for each situation, and have a multitude of choices during combat (this is where Guildwars FAILS).

    I like personalizing a character, personalizing the combat, then going out and whooping ass. I don't want to wait arbitrary time just to do that, nor do I want to be a walking target in the mean time. It's just too bad no one has been able to do all of that perfectly.

    To Oboro: Guildwars has more flaws than just that. It's not persistent. The character customization is pretty weak. Everyone in the same class looks pretty much the same. The most unique I've seen a GW char is some girl wearing sun glasses. That's it. Everyone has armor of badassery or skimpy skirt of no modesty. There's also way too many skills but not enough skill slots, which makes it pretty piss poor unless you can arrange everyone to have cohesive skill templates. But then you're just forcing everyone into some stupid role instead of playing what they think is fun.

  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Ultima Online imo

    :wink:

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Lol! wrote: »
    You know the better answer then "you suck" is why do people want a game where they can expect to make assumptions in PvP zones that people will not attack, external to anything else? I mean, EVE 0.0 rule 1: neutrals are Kill-On-Sight.

    A couple days late, but wasn't the saying "Not Blue, Shoot It"?
    Well yeah but not everyone in this thread will be familiar with EVE lingo.

    The point was that having unsecured zones where anyone can kill anyone is supposed to lead to people moving in gangs/groups etc. for safety and forming such alliances. Of course, this will fail if the game isn't managed properly to support it.

    How do you do it in a fantasy MMO? I haven't given it a huge amount of thought, but allowing people to have recall spells to group members, scaling the loot from mobs to the size of the gang attacking them (maybe also their difficulty) and adding a mob retreat mechanism so if someone does attack you're not bound up fighting surprisingly tough NPCs at the same time.

  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    When a monster is attacking you, half of the time it probably intends to eat you, or if it's intelligent, to loot you.

    So when someone else starts killing you, the monster should turn on them!

    (I wish. <.<)

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  • falsedeffalsedef Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Oboro wrote: »
    Ultima Online imo

    :wink:

    I assume you're talking about post-trammel, since I'm not a fan of penalized death. Isometric, outdated gameplay, and small communities don't do it for me. Going from FPS/3rd person influenced games to UO leaves the senses dull. I understand the community appeal, though.

    Sidenote: I like Planetside, as you start off with a specialization (but still have full combat effectiveness), then extend it to other specialties. It's too bad their interface and engine sucks. SOE refuses to fix gamplay, bugs, and bloat.

    Sidenote 2: Man, I wish Guildwars had a jump key and no invisible walls.

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Lol! wrote: »
    You know the better answer then "you suck" is why do people want a game where they can expect to make assumptions in PvP zones that people will not attack, external to anything else? I mean, EVE 0.0 rule 1: neutrals are Kill-On-Sight.

    A couple days late, but wasn't the saying "Not Blue, Shoot It"?
    Well yeah but not everyone in this thread will be familiar with EVE lingo.

    I was really only asking out of curiosity, I wasn't expecting everyone to know.

  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    falsedef wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    Ultima Online imo

    :wink:

    I assume you're talking about post-trammel, since I'm not a fan of penalized death. Isometric, outdated gameplay, and small communities don't do it for me. Going from FPS/3rd person influenced games to UO leaves the senses dull. I understand the community appeal, though.
    I just really, really, like the skills system. My latest two characters were a Warp Knight and a sort-of-atypical defender type-- the former is a Mage who I've gotten gear that lets her cast Teleport pretty much instantly and with minimal mana impact (vendor trash gear, more or less), and inbetween slamming things with her axe she calls down lightning on them. The latter's an absolute tank that has very little health and armor-- he has about four skills stacked, though, that let him parry enemy attacks (even magic spells), as well as disarm handily and repeatedly thanks to his deep mana pool. He also has some neat tricks of maneuverability, in that he can stealth and by dipping in Ninjitsu he gained the ability to teleport between shadows.

    Oh, and by dipping into a specific school of spellcasting, he also gained the power to stack heal-over-times on himself and cast a self-ressurect-on-death spell. So fun. :D

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    So basically we need a Guild Wars game that has a persistant world, no actual leveling (maybe you can grind for cooler-LOOKING stuff), fun non-PVP things to do which can also be done in PVP areas but without any penalty for deciding one over the other, and with Elder Scrolls-style customization, with a PVE world that coincides with it but is seperate for all intents and purposes?

    I'd try it out.

    Hell, in the mean time, just give someone the ability to switch effortlessly between PVP and PVE servers. :P

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  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So basically we need a Guild Wars game that has a persistant world, no actual leveling (maybe you can grind for cooler-LOOKING stuff), fun non-PVP things to do which can also be done in PVP areas but without any penalty for deciding one over the other, and with Elder Scrolls-style customization, with a PVE world that coincides with it but is seperate for all intents and purposes?

    and hookers

    and some blow, to snort off the hookers

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Little Jim wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So basically we need a Guild Wars game that has a persistant world, no actual leveling (maybe you can grind for cooler-LOOKING stuff), fun non-PVP things to do which can also be done in PVP areas but without any penalty for deciding one over the other, and with Elder Scrolls-style customization, with a PVE world that coincides with it but is seperate for all intents and purposes?

    and hookers

    and some blow, to snort off the hookers

    That's what the RPers are for.

    Though hey in-game psychadellics would be awesome.

    PVP with a shrooms lense would be the best.

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  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So basically we need a Guild Wars game that has a persistant world, no actual leveling (maybe you can grind for cooler-LOOKING stuff), fun non-PVP things to do which can also be done in PVP areas but without any penalty for deciding one over the other, and with Elder Scrolls-style customization, with a PVE world that coincides with it but is seperate for all intents and purposes?

    I'd try it out.

    Hell, in the mean time, just give someone the ability to switch effortlessly between PVP and PVE servers. :P

    That wouldn't be a real MMO, though, because there's a way for people toe escape constant gankings and the harsh penalties associated with it. The only solution would be for the ganking-safe areas to have even harsher penalties. I'm thinking rape.

    See, they hire some ex-cons, right? Then, if you stay in safe areas, they go to your house and rape you.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    That wouldn't be a real MMO, though, because there's a way for people toe escape constant gankings and the harsh penalties associated with it. The only solution would be for the ganking-safe areas to have even harsher penalties. I'm thinking rape.

    See, they hire some ex-cons, right? Then, if you stay in safe areas, they go to your house and rape you.

    And anyone who complains about the lack of lube is a carebear

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  • xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Garthor wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So basically we need a Guild Wars game that has a persistant world, no actual leveling (maybe you can grind for cooler-LOOKING stuff), fun non-PVP things to do which can also be done in PVP areas but without any penalty for deciding one over the other, and with Elder Scrolls-style customization, with a PVE world that coincides with it but is seperate for all intents and purposes?

    I'd try it out.

    Hell, in the mean time, just give someone the ability to switch effortlessly between PVP and PVE servers. :P

    That wouldn't be a real MMO, though, because there's a way for people toe escape constant gankings and the harsh penalties associated with it. The only solution would be for the ganking-safe areas to have even harsher penalties. I'm thinking rape.

    See, they hire some ex-cons, right? Then, if you stay in safe areas, they go to your house and rape you.

    Shit man, I'd pay for that. I haven't had the pleasure of a surprise buttsecks in forever.

  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    That wouldn't be a real MMO, though, because there's a way for people toe escape constant gankings and the harsh penalties associated with it. The only solution would be for the ganking-safe areas to have even harsher penalties. I'm thinking rape.

    See, they hire some ex-cons, right? Then, if you stay in safe areas, they go to your house and rape you.

    And anyone who complains about the lack of lube is a carebear

    Well, it's the bears who wouldn't complain about this.

    See: xzzy

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think we have us a WoW-killer here, gentlemen.

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  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    to celebrate, I bought us some hookers

    and blow

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  • ThomamelasThomamelas Bro!Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Little Jim wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So basically we need a Guild Wars game that has a persistant world, no actual leveling (maybe you can grind for cooler-LOOKING stuff), fun non-PVP things to do which can also be done in PVP areas but without any penalty for deciding one over the other, and with Elder Scrolls-style customization, with a PVE world that coincides with it but is seperate for all intents and purposes?

    and hookers

    and some blow, to snort off the hookers

    Don't forget the pony.

  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Little Jim wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So basically we need a Guild Wars game that has a persistant world, no actual leveling (maybe you can grind for cooler-LOOKING stuff), fun non-PVP things to do which can also be done in PVP areas but without any penalty for deciding one over the other, and with Elder Scrolls-style customization, with a PVE world that coincides with it but is seperate for all intents and purposes?

    and hookers

    and some blow, to snort off the hookers

    Don't forget the pony.

    Now that's just fucked up.
    Spoiler:

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    So are you cumming onto a Sayo or is each man swallowing?

  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Cap's Kooky Quartet Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Seg wrote: »
    So who would make a great developer for this new MMO that some of the folks in this thread want?

    Would the group who designed DAoC be able to make this MMO? or maybe the people who designed the original version of UO.

    Find your designer guys and start sending them emails. Perhaps you can start a grassroots group and gather enough support that the company will be able to see they could make a profit by providing the hardcore pvpers with a hardcore pvp system.

    I think the folks from Mythic have a shot with Warhammer. I'm just hoping that Warhammer will have the same community feel that I got from DAoC (it's very possible that I'll never get that feeling from a MMORPG again, though).

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This discussion has been closed.