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Why are graphing calculators still expensive?
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Again, some of these things can be simulated by the more powerful devices...but how well? Sure, you could probably emulate an entire TI-83 or TI-89 on a Palm or similar...but without the 50 buttons that go with it, will it be as easy (or as fast) to use?
I own a Leatherman. It's a great tool. But I didn't look at the thing and go, "hey, why the fuck do people even buy screwdrivers or can openers anymore?" A TI-89 is more functional and easy to use that any "emulated" solution on a cellphone, DS, or even Palm is likely to be..."underpowered" processor and all. Carrying around ten devices is not a bad idea when you have ten things that you need to be done well. I've found more often than not when things try to squeeze in other functionality they end up doing it poorly...many cellphone MP3 players I've seen aren't nearly as good as an iPod (or other dedicated player). I'm not a fan of the PDA's that double as cellphones. My cellphone makes a pretty crappy calculator. N-Gage...just N-Gage. And so on.
Higher contrast screens would be nice though.
Not always. It's entirely possible that the form function of, say, a cellphone is more or less incompatible with the optimal user interface of a portable computer algebra system. Different primary functions can lead to different optimal design decisions that are mutually exclusive.
Hell, even the TI-89 is suboptimal compared to a PC-based CAS, due to lack of a full-sized keyboard (yet even the mini-keyboard on the TI-92 series leads to a somewhat larger form factor than I like in something I take with me on the go). So the idea of boiling down the interface into something that would fit onto a DS or a cellphone seems a bit far-fetched, when even in its current form it can be a bit of a pain in the ass to use when compared to a PC.
Really, unless human hands and fingers suddenly undergo drastic changes, I don't think these are the kinds of issues that "time" will overcome.
Now, processing power and screen quality, maybe.
@jackal: Really, the contrast isn't too horrible to me...I could really go for a higher resolution, though.
Shit, the touch screen would make this better, because then the buttons could actually change labels and such instead of needing three different colored words on each to differentiate between various shift keys.
The top screen would show the current expression, as well as the last few previous expressions and answers, like the TI's screen, and pressing a button, say, L/R, or maybe Select so it's not pressed accidentally, would switch it to graph mode.
Hey, this is sounding better and better. Too bad I probably won't get a chance to start it until Thanksgiving break.
http://www.r-project.org/
If you own an HP hold down the ON button and the + key and you will increase the contrast.
Really the Tool vs Toy is the best reason. I've had a 38G since 1999 (got it replaced in 2000) And I use it dozens of times a day. The abillity to recall previous functions that are store in my history is brilliant.
The solve function is handy as well when I'm too lazy to reverse engineer forumlas from the code.
Though I haven't used it in yonks the statistics solver is also a masive time save back when I did it (though now days I use excel).
Really as an engineer I don't know where I'd be without my HP.
Satans..... hints..... I'm a mo bro!
I'm curious how your going to implement equation solving among other things.
Equation solving (including multiple equations), differentiation and integration (including indefinite), simplification of expressions as well as expansion of expressions...yes, I'd say it will be interesting to see.
A z-score and a random number are just two examples of statistics and probability related things the TI-83 can do. I don't have my calculator handy at the moment, but I'd guess there are about 50 more statistics and probability features.
Most of which I imagine he could program...and most of which he's probably not going to. That's the point; sure, he could probably crank out a program for the DS that will do everything he wants it to do...but people are willing to shell out $100 (or $150, for a TI-89) for one that can do just about anything that anybody would want it to do. Because whatever calculator he's likely to create would probably be next to useless for me...hell, that's why I had to trade up to an 89.
Sure, probably, but I'd release the source code if you wanted to give it a shot.
Also, making this thing will help me learn more about the various functions that I'm programming into it. I think I'll start this weekend, although the first alpha will probably be little more than a UI proof-of-concept.
See, and not to pick on you but this goes back to the original question: why are people willing to pay $100-$150 for these things? Because my time has value. Honestly, programming a computer algebra system for my DS (or even my PC) is not something I really feel like doing with my leisure time...I'd rather go hiking, read a book, or shoot some people in the face in TF2.
Honestly, if I had to put a dollar value on my leisure time, it'd probably be upwards of like $20 per hour. So unless I can crank out code that will perform these functions as well as if not better than my calculator in less than 5-7 hours (unlikely, considering my coding experience) then there's no reason for me not to drop a bill or two on one of these items.
And yeah, there are other options (supposedly there are a couple decent freeware apps for Palm, for instance, and I happen to have an old Palm). But again, even assuming they have the same featureset as my TI-89 (which I doubt) they probably won't be as fast to use (given the form factor/user interface of my calculator) so over time again we're talking about time lost...time that has value.
So again we're talking about a very specific tool for a very specific job...the same way that my Gerber hasn't replaced my screwdriver (nor has my butterknife replaced my flat-head screwdriver, although it often can perform the same function).
Same way I'm more than willing to drop $100 on a student edition of MATLAB...because although there may be free options, this is what I'm expected to know for classes, and in fact what I'm expected use for some projects. And some of those free options likely lack at least some of the functionality I need from MATLAB. So by dropping $100 on it so I can install it at home, I can same myself hours upon hours either in the computer lab or going back and forth.
Well worth the money.
And again, about the last thing I think about in regards to my calculator is how fast the processor is (I honestly couldn't have told you until this thread, though I knew it was pretty slow)...I only care what it can do.
So, why are graphing calculators still expensive? Because they can be. Because to anybody that actually needs one, they're well worth it. EDIT: Also, for broken record effect, software.
Because for some applications li-ion batteries (or other "fixed" rechargeables) suck? Plus they add to price (keeping in mind that now you have to include not only Li-ion batteries but also a charger)?
Four AAA's last for at least a semester, if not an entire school year, in my TI-89...and cost a dollar or two. Battery life simply isn't much of an issue in these things. You go lithium-ion, and now you've got a battery pack that will cost at least $10-$20 (if not more), and will still need to be replaced every couple years (because they degrade with time, regardless of use). Plus now I have to own two (at $10+ a pop), a backup charged in case I forget to charge my calculator before a big exam. Whereas with AAA's I drop $1 on a set of cheap AAA's to keep in my backpack that can be swapped in anytime if my batteries die during an exam, and forget about it.
Plus again li-ion's degrade over time. The odds that I'll still own the same iPod six or ten years from now are slim...the odds that I'll still own my TI-89 in a decade? Not as much. So the question is will TI still be making my model in 2017 (remembering that even "form-factor" revisions might break battery-pack compatibility)? If not, will they still make the li-ion battery pack for it in 2017? How much will it cost, now that it's a low-volume item? Will I have to get it from a third-party, at $50 a pop?
Or, alternately, will I be able to drive down to Wal-Mart and pay $1 on a set of AAA's twice or at most thrice a year? Because I'll bet money that they'll still be making AAA's in 2017.
The appendix includes a syntax list for (I think) every function. Perhaps not as useful as a detailed explanation of all the programming features, but I taught myself to program with it so it can't be that bad.
With my HP which uses 3 AAA (go figure.....) I'll go through about three sets a year with heavy use.
It's really such a small amount compared to the amount of work it does for me it isn't a worry.
Satans..... hints..... I'm a mo bro!
Hey TI, how about charging us what your calculators should really cost (low profit margin my ass) and then maybe tack on a few extra dollars to have essentially unlimited space for programs and whatnot? Assholes.
Processing "power" can be improved without using more electrical power people; these things didn't start out at 100% efficiency nor are they now.
There are obviously 2 reasons (or more) why these calculators are still as much as they are--and with decade-old features mind you:
1. Most schools (every school I've been to) require TI-83+'s or better; try bringing a Casio or HP to most junior high classes in the U.S--you will get laughed at and the teacher won't be able to help you. Basically, if you are a math student you almost don't have a choice. TI cornered this market early on. Smart move...
2. Related to above; TI has a virtual monopoly and can charge whatever they wish. There is absolutely no reason for them to improve their products in any way except for in a superficial manner, in order to make it at least seem like they are doing something.
This is why monopolies are supposed to be illegal (remember, I said this was a virtual monopoly). They cause slowed progress and stagnation of innovation.
You guys know that some company could, right now, develop a calculator that has a much higher resolution screen (possibly color), is about three times "faster", has plenty of RAM and EEPROM (flash), and draws the same current/voltage as a TI-89 and place it on the market at the same price, if not cheaper, as a TI-89 and still be able to make money off of it. But why can't they? Because TI has the market dominated and everyone knows it. Why risk innovation (yes, it is risky) when you don't have to? Why try to make better and cheaper stuff when there's no motivation and good financial reasons to do the opposite?
There you go. It's not often that a company finds a niche like this and dominates the market for such an amount of time, but it happens, it has happened before, and it will continue to happen. However, like someone said above, something has to give. Something will give; it's just a question of when.
a) We don't care if you say bad words. We will not ask you to clean your mouth out with soap.
b) This thread is a year and a half old.
Yet still relevant.
True.
I'm with you right up until the voltage/current, which I think may still be a challenge. But yeah, aside from that you're basically describing my Palm, which cost me $50 more (and that was a couple years ago) and is better than my TI-89 in every way except battery life (and obviously lacks the software).
I can even understand keeping the screen low-res, non-backlit*, and non-color for battery life purposes, but at this point there's really no reason it shouldn't have megabytes upon megabytes of storage space. Shit's dirt cheap. They don't do it because, as you said, they don't have to. Yes, there are many professional engineers I know (and a few students) who swear by their HP's, but overall it's a TI world out there.
* - Actually, there's no reason you couldn't have a backlight that can be turned off. But it's kind of a non-issue, because really how often are you doing calculations in the damned dark?
EDIT: You can stretch the "you're paying for the software, not the hardware" excuse pretty far...I'm pretty sure I dropped it earlier in this thread, though that was like three years ago so I don't remember...but there comes a point where a significant hardware redesign (or price drop) is warranted. The TI-89 Titanium has passed that point.
In 2005.
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Not really, though. I mean yeah, if you're comparing it to other TI calculators (or graphing calculators). But hardware-wise? My Palm m125 kicked its ass, and that was released back in like 2000. Again, the only thing special about graphing calculators is the software; hardware-wise, they are and have long been absolute shit.
Yeah, that particular Palm may have run more like $200-$250. In 2001. And it had about the same resolution (160x160) greyscale), backlighting, a faster processor, more RAM/ROM, an SD card port, and a fucking touch screen.
Again, I'm sure TI's software makes up a significant portion of the cost. But that doesn't change the fact that it's running on like $12 worth of hardware. For the most part I can chalk it up to supply and demand, and the fact that it matters more what people will pay and utility and blah blah blah. But on the storage/memory front, you're talking about something that is actually quite limiting to the user, and people routinely complain about.
The only reason I can come up with why this hasn't been fixed by now is lack of real competition.
No, it grows in a jar of tapwater.
I brought a laptop in and... "did the math" on it once I showed my teacher it was the same thing and he okayed it. There was no wireless and he walked around every so often to see that I wasnt cheating. 150$ requirement within the last 3 days of a class with no warning is fucktarded. People worked out a scam from a couple places to buy and return theirs
Tall-Paul MIPsDroid
Then I go check on newegg and they are still $100. Same exact model with what is probably the same specs. How does a tech company get away with this?
Of course, the flipside to that is that they hold value; when I had to upgrade to a TI-89, I managed to resell my TI-83 Silver for...I think $80? Might have been more.
But yeah, it's pretty absurd. And they get away with it through lack of competition...most high-school (and below) classes straight up require a specific TI model, and by the time you get to college you stick with TI because that's what everybody else is using so you know that's the model people will be able to help you out on.
This really only applies to the screen, and even then you could probably figure out a way to make it backwards compatible (double the resolution, then simply upscale for "legacy" programs). But there's no reason you couldn't put a faster processor in, and there's certainly no reason you couldn't up the storage space. That's not going to break compatibility.
I remember though having so much fun with it though programming text adventures and downloading games onto it.
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But really, has the software really evolved any in the past 5-10 years? I remember having one of the big brick calculators for an advanced math course, and that a smaller version (TI 89?) came out. I can imagine that programming a symbolic equation solver on those tiny chips must be hard, but software development costs would surely be small over the lifetime of those things.