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Aqua Dots: the Date Rape Drug

2

Posts

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I like how people are pointing out that any outrage directed at the chinese manufactures of this crap is just hatemongering. Just do me a favor and ask yourself something, if a factory in your nation of origin were to manufacture easily swallowed children's toys with GHB in them, what would happen? In the US that factory get's shut down, end of story, the owners would be facing criminal charges, the reason people don't like china is because they pull this kind of shit, not because we're racists or nationalists or whatever, it's because they don't put nearly the emphasis on safty that we do, while taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy. I don't completely take the blame off of the company that commisioned the toys, the deserve some harsh penalties for not running their own safety tests before putting this stuff on the market, but I also demand that the manufacturers be held to the same standards that they would be here, otherwise we shouldn't be willing to trade with china.
    And how much of the shit they produce do you think is actually made by a Chinese company, bound for Chinese markets, or in any way involves China besides the fact it's made there?

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Don't, just don't do that.(sucking on your toys part)
    People with lead poisoning are not funny.
    Even less so than people with a wicked GHB rush.

    Tell that to the small children who are prone to sucking on their toys, fingers, fists (that one is always funny), bottle... you get the idea.

    I don't think infants are the target-market for anime-figurines, if there are there are a lot of more prominent safety-concerns to consider. Move up to G.I. Joe age-ranges and there are funness-of-design issues with them. They're basically only being bought or even possessed by people who are old enough to know better. They still shouldn't use lead paint, but it's not as big a concern in this product as in one that's handled by children. Pewter miniatures for example can be up to 15% lead because it is very unlikely that a toddler is going to purchase and then eat a Warhammer army, and because buyers are presumably going to paint them anyway.

    This is starting to stray from the topic but this paranoia over lead that people have is largely unfounded. Yes, lead paint in children's toys is a major health-concern, yes using lead in manufacturing processes poses significant health and environmental risks, no you're not going to get cancer because you were in a room with something that has lead in it. Just wash your hands between soldering shit and eating and you should be fine unless you have a bunch of other shit wrong with you in the first place. It gets bad for you as it accumulates in your system, it's not like "zomg I smelled lead I need a new liver!". I don't give a shit if there's lead in a lot of my stuff, including my giant-robots, as I'm not going to eat my giant robots nor use them as plumbing or smear them all over all the surfaces in my apartment. The parts are all injection-molded in the desired colour anyway though so there's probably not any lead in them. They also still make bullets out of lead but lead doesn't seem to be the main health-concern related to bullets.

    Now, these toys that have a part that when ingested functions similarly to GHB are a seperate problem, because people go ahead and knowingly eat the shit or get other people to eat it because of the side-effects. There shouldn't be an easily accessible device to use for that purpose. I don't really seem to have figured out what this toy even is, but if little kids are messing with it it shouldn't have swallowable parts in the first place. But at this point we're leaning toward "those filthy whipped cream manufacturers are deliberately selling drugs!".

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User
    edited November 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    China doesn't just make cheap junk.

    They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.

    Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.

    The point Loren was making is that its not China's fault that the Canadian company who commissioned the toy's production were too fucking cheap to fund half-decent safety standards. They got what they paid for.

    I totally agree with this. The amount of BS that piled upon China when its the NA companies not paying anything good is really at fault here. My Japanese Anime Figures are produced in China. Guess what? None of them are poisoness because the Japanese companies take precaution, at least in the figures I have.

    Frankly this mostly sounds like scare mongering and anti-China retoric.

    That sounded like a japanophile love fest.

    This is a global problem. The Chinese have been selling faulty products to nations left and right, not just America.

    Japanese products are just as prone to failure as any other nations. I've had plenty of them fail due to shoddy manufacture.

    The issue is that Chinese companies cut corners to keep prices down, and this is something that all nations turn a blind eye to because we really can't control it, and we need the labor.

    Case in point was the capacitor fiasco a while ago. Even top flight electronic brands using top end none chinese manufacturing got burned because some plant decided to cut corners on electrolyte capacitors and sent them all over the place. Nobody realized it until they started blowing left and right down the road.

    The problem is capitalism run rampant. Even when they have the funds to use proper components you've got individual plant managers that choose to cut corners and keep the cash, even when they are legally bound not to.

    What's needed is more transparancy into their business practices and government involvement.

    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    China doesn't just make cheap junk.

    They also make things like, say, iPods and digital cameras. They make a ton of shit, and they're perfectly capable of controlling quality to an exceptional degree if the company placing the orders is willing to pay for it.

    Er, the point is, they make even the expensive stuff more cheaply than it would be if it were made in a country with, you know, labor laws and reasonable minimum wages and such. "Cheap" here is relative.

    The point Loren was making is that its not China's fault that the Canadian company who commissioned the toy's production were too fucking cheap to fund half-decent safety standards. They got what they paid for.

    I totally agree with this. The amount of BS that piled upon China when its the NA companies not paying anything good is really at fault here. My Japanese Anime Figures are produced in China. Guess what? None of them are poisoness because the Japanese companies take precaution, at least in the figures I have.

    Frankly this mostly sounds like scare mongering and anti-China retoric.

    That sounded like a japanophile love fest.
    Don't be redundant, that's Katchem_ash

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I like how people are pointing out that any outrage directed at the chinese manufactures of this crap is just hatemongering. Just do me a favor and ask yourself something, if a factory in your nation of origin were to manufacture easily swallowed children's toys with GHB in them, what would happen? In the US that factory get's shut down, end of story, the owners would be facing criminal charges, the reason people don't like china is because they pull this kind of shit, not because we're racists or nationalists or whatever, it's because they don't put nearly the emphasis on safty that we do, while taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy. I don't completely take the blame off of the company that commisioned the toys, the deserve some harsh penalties for not running their own safety tests before putting this stuff on the market, but I also demand that the manufacturers be held to the same standards that they would be here, otherwise we shouldn't be willing to trade with china.

    It couldn't possibly be the looser labor/safety laws that inspires some companies to ship manufacturing off to China in the first place of course. There's absolutely no reason why companies can't impose safety standards upon their factories in China, as many companies have done exactly that. If they don't it seems to me it makes more sense to boycott those specific companies rather than the whole of China. Particularly given that most products manufactured in China don't cause liver-disease or schizophrenia. You're running a line here that goes "some stuff designed here and manufactured in China in plants run by the companies here are unsafe, let's boycott China!", a line which makes no sense. Even if you completely ignore the numerous and severe ramifications of halting all trade with China.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Dark MoonDark Moon Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I like how people are pointing out that any outrage directed at the chinese manufactures of this crap is just hatemongering. Just do me a favor and ask yourself something, if a factory in your nation of origin were to manufacture easily swallowed children's toys with GHB in them, what would happen? In the US that factory get's shut down, end of story, the owners would be facing criminal charges, the reason people don't like china is because they pull this kind of shit, not because we're racists or nationalists or whatever, it's because they don't put nearly the emphasis on safty that we do, while taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy. I don't completely take the blame off of the company that commisioned the toys, the deserve some harsh penalties for not running their own safety tests before putting this stuff on the market, but I also demand that the manufacturers be held to the same standards that they would be here, otherwise we shouldn't be willing to trade with china.

    Did you even bother to glance over the thread before firing off this reply? People are not calling any outrage directed at the manufacturers hatemongering, but rather they are saying it is equal part the fault of the Chinese manufacturers and the North American company who commissioned the product. And yes, if a factory here were to produce such a product there would be severe consequences. However, suggesting that there are no repercussions for this in China is lunacy - the head of their FDA was recently executed in relation to these scandals.

    The reason why China, "pull this kind of shit," is because they are commissioned to produce products at a price which isn't in line with high quality products. They are also lacking in either regulations or the enforcement of regulations regarding worker and product safety. It's at this point that the blame can be shifted from China to the NA commissioners. If they are not offering a price that allows for proper wages to be paid to the staff making their products or for proper safety testing to be done, then the workers will probably not be paid proper wages and safety testing will probably not be done if the contract is accepted.

    In regards to, "...taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy," I'll just mention that it was NA companies who chose to do business with China. If those companies were willing to pay competitive wages in the NA marketplace for labor, then I'm quite sure there would be manufacturers willing to build their proucts. That Chinese companies pay far less for labor and that NA companies are willing to exploit this does not make the Chinese the wrongdoers - the fact that NA companies choose to exploit this difference to their advantage makes them, if anyone, the ones who are funneling cash out of their own economy.

    As many other people here have mentioned as well, China does not just make cheap toys laden with lead and drugs. They also produce a large volume of high quality goods which simply don't get as much time in the press as it's not very fitting with the China-Poison-Train theme they're so fond of these days.

    3072973561_de17a80845_o.jpg
  • waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User
    edited November 2007
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I like how people are pointing out that any outrage directed at the chinese manufactures of this crap is just hatemongering. Just do me a favor and ask yourself something, if a factory in your nation of origin were to manufacture easily swallowed children's toys with GHB in them, what would happen? In the US that factory get's shut down, end of story, the owners would be facing criminal charges, the reason people don't like china is because they pull this kind of shit, not because we're racists or nationalists or whatever, it's because they don't put nearly the emphasis on safty that we do, while taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy. I don't completely take the blame off of the company that commisioned the toys, the deserve some harsh penalties for not running their own safety tests before putting this stuff on the market, but I also demand that the manufacturers be held to the same standards that they would be here, otherwise we shouldn't be willing to trade with china.

    It couldn't possibly be the looser labor/safety laws that inspires some companies to ship manufacturing off to China in the first place of course. There's absolutely no reason why companies can't impose safety standards upon their factories in China, as many companies have done exactly that. If they don't it seems to me it makes more sense to boycott those specific companies rather than the whole of China. Particularly given that most products manufactured in China don't cause liver-disease or schizophrenia. You're running a line here that goes "some stuff designed here and manufactured in China in plants run by the companies here are unsafe, let's boycott China!", a line which makes no sense. Even if you completely ignore the numerous and severe ramifications of halting all trade with China.

    Imposing safety regulations is really hard in that environment. You can send an order to a company with quality labor, demand quality parts, pay top dollar, and nothing prevents one plant from cutting corners on one chemical/component and hosing a part of your order.

    We only really hear about it when the devices poses a health risk or fails catastrophically on a large scale, because until that happens nobody notices and often time it's just a small batch/shipment that has a flaw.

    The Chinese government needs to step in and enforce the laws they have on their books and provide some sort of transparency into just what is going on there.

    The reason for all the bruhaha is that it's impossible to be sure a product there is safe.
    The reason why China, "pull this kind of shit," is because they are commissioned to produce products at a price which isn't in line with high quality products.

    Read the above, even then we can't prevent it which is what's scary.
    They also produce a large volume of high quality goods which simply don't get as much time in the press as it's not very fitting with the China-Poison-Train theme they're so fond of these days.

    Not that simple.

    As soon as you pose a public health risk people have the right to be alarmed, and it's not just the Chinese that get flak for this. Exploding batteries, SUV's that roll over, when you put the public at risk people get mad.

    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DevilGuyDevilGuy Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    actually I'm saying that the PRC doesn't enforce any kind of safety regulation on it's manufacturers, with the result of not being able to trust their products, even if you try to enforce saftey through your contracts you really can't count on it without the teeth to back it up.

    What I'm saying is that both the company who commisioned the product, AND the manufacturer that produced it need to be held fully responsible for any unethical practices, and if a nation, be it the PRC, or any western nation, refuses to enforce safty and ethical practices from their end, then trade shouldn't be an option.

    It's not that I dislike the PRC for taking advantage of the situation (I dislike the PRC for alot of reasons, but disliking opportunism would be hypocritical on my part) it's that they don't insure quality and don't enforce any kind of safety that isn't specifically contracted for, and thats just not kosher.

    To be blunt I don't support trade with any nation that doesn't enforce ethical safety laws, regardless of wheather or not its asked for, and I don't really support the amount of manufactured goods the US imports on a daily basis anyway.

  • DevilGuyDevilGuy Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Dark Moon wrote: »
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I like how people are pointing out that any outrage directed at the chinese manufactures of this crap is just hatemongering. Just do me a favor and ask yourself something, if a factory in your nation of origin were to manufacture easily swallowed children's toys with GHB in them, what would happen? In the US that factory get's shut down, end of story, the owners would be facing criminal charges, the reason people don't like china is because they pull this kind of shit, not because we're racists or nationalists or whatever, it's because they don't put nearly the emphasis on safty that we do, while taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy. I don't completely take the blame off of the company that commisioned the toys, the deserve some harsh penalties for not running their own safety tests before putting this stuff on the market, but I also demand that the manufacturers be held to the same standards that they would be here, otherwise we shouldn't be willing to trade with china.

    Did you even bother to glance over the thread before firing off this reply? People are not calling any outrage directed at the manufacturers hatemongering, but rather they are saying it is equal part the fault of the Chinese manufacturers and the North American company who commissioned the product. And yes, if a factory here were to produce such a product there would be severe consequences. However, suggesting that there are no repercussions for this in China is lunacy - the head of their FDA was recently executed in relation to these scandals.

    The reason why China, "pull this kind of shit," is because they are commissioned to produce products at a price which isn't in line with high quality products. They are also lacking in either regulations or the enforcement of regulations regarding worker and product safety. It's at this point that the blame can be shifted from China to the NA commissioners. If they are not offering a price that allows for proper wages to be paid to the staff making their products or for proper safety testing to be done, then the workers will probably not be paid proper wages and safety testing will probably not be done if the contract is accepted.

    In regards to, "...taking advantage of our free market system to drain cash out of our economy," I'll just mention that it was NA companies who chose to do business with China. If those companies were willing to pay competitive wages in the NA marketplace for labor, then I'm quite sure there would be manufacturers willing to build their proucts. That Chinese companies pay far less for labor and that NA companies are willing to exploit this does not make the Chinese the wrongdoers - the fact that NA companies choose to exploit this difference to their advantage makes them, if anyone, the ones who are funneling cash out of their own economy.

    As many other people here have mentioned as well, China does not just make cheap toys laden with lead and drugs. They also produce a large volume of high quality goods which simply don't get as much time in the press as it's not very fitting with the China-Poison-Train theme they're so fond of these days.

    yes I did read the thread, I saw a bunch of knee jerk replies about how saying all that stuff about china was hatemongering, and that's why I said what I said, I didn't see alot of people saying that the PRC should do anything to the manufacturers or enforce blanket safety laws in those same posts though.

    What I said was that BOTH the manufactures and the toy companies should be held responsible, unfortunately we're dealing with china here so there's nothing we can really do about the manufacturers, we don't even know which chinese firm did it.

    As for why they pull this kind of shit, it's not JUST because the companies are paying low prices, its BECAUSE china doesn't enforce safety regs that these companies are able to offer these prices, they constantly compete to get contracts and resort to ever more questionable practices to do it. I don't fault them for doing it, it's just opportunistic, and I don't fault companies for taking advantage, because thats the same kind of opportunism. However if the PRC had safety and consumer protection laws, the chinese firms would have had to stay within safe limits, and we may have had to pay a little more, but we'd never have gotten to this point.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    actually I'm saying that the PRC doesn't enforce any kind of safety regulation on it's manufacturers, with the result of not being able to trust their products, even if you try to enforce saftey through your contracts you really can't count on it without the teeth to back it up.

    And that it is your feeling that all possible avenues for change are exhausted and the only option is an embargo on all trade with China. Any time you're paying someone for a service, you have teeth. If the service is not provided to your satisfaction, you stop paying for it, and don't pay for it again unless you're given good reason to believe that the previous problems have been addressed. Firms put their manufacturing in China because since the PRC doesn't enforce any regulations it's a lot cheaper to manufacture shit in China than in the U.S. for example. Start enforcing the same standards in China as in the U.S., and China is no longer a cheaper place to manufacture because enforcement costs a great deal of money. At that point there's no incentive to ship shit halfway across the world.

    You also seem to be conflating quality-standards with health/safety-standards. Stricter safety enforcement in Chinese factories would not increase the amount of trust I can place in my MacBook, as any trust-concerns related to it aren't going to be centered around getting cancer from chewing on my computer too much, nor from my cats dying from eating my computer because it has rat-poison in it. This could be argued to be a minor point except that you're trying to defend yourself against accusations of nationalism/racism by making overly broad generalizations about Chinese workmanship. When you talk about problems with Chinese manufacturing, you need to take into account that there is more than one factory in China, and more than one product produced in Chinese factories, for more than one firm. There are many dangerous and/or unreliable products manufactured in China, but there are many safe and reliable products manufactured there too. It seems to be less a matter of China as a singular entity being a problem than a matter of specific facilities in China being pretty shitty.

    It seems I'm supposed to assume that the majority of products produced in Chinese factories are shitty. And also that materials specifications are not actually a part of product-design. There's no reason why a company can't say in their contract "you are going to make this part out of this material, because that's the product we're paying you for" and then ditch a particular manufacturing firm if they violate your contract. It seems to me that this approach would have less radical consequences than banning all trade with China across the board, because suddenly products that weren't problematic before suddenly three or four times as much as they did last year.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think we can all agree that a solution to the problems we've been having of this nature would be to make sure that China (and other states that manufacture multiple products for the world) implements and enforces quality and safety standards.

    The question is, how would that happen? The PLC seems to have little interest in implementing something like that themselves... it's probably cheaper and easier just to punish those who get caught embarassing them. I would mention the western states and companies refusing to do business with the Chinese companies until the government has comprehensive safety and quality inspections, but free market capitalism strikes again... anyone who takes the moral road and does not use this exploitable resource will have an economic disadvantage with rivals who will. It only works if everyone works together in sanctions.

    That seems unlikely. Some sort of leverage is needed... perhaps the US or United Nations use the threat of (toothy) sanctions to get results. They could even word it using modern key paradigms... call the perpetrators of this sort of thing "Capitalism Terrorists," or perhaps the phoenominon as the "Terrorism of Neglect."

    I dunno. Bad ideas, but it's all I have at the moment.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • DevilGuyDevilGuy Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    OK lets be clear, I care primarily about safety, buyer beware on any quality regs, and worker safety/pay is a concern but I care far less about it if it's over in china as I consider their people their responsibility.

    I also didn't say or intend to imply that the chinese are incapable of producing good products, what I did say was that the lack of safety regulations puts a large amount of doubt on ANY chinese product I encounter, the fact is that I don't have the research in hand to say wheather or not any particular chinese product is safe or not, but I do know for a fact that they don't have the same level of safety regulation as western manufacturers, and therefore I err on the side of caution and treat all chinese products as suspect untill proven safe, I don't have anything against the chinese, I just don't want to take risks where the health and safety of my friends and family are concerned.

    as for not buying their products as a form of regulation, thats all well and good but both the chinese manufacturers and the toy companies will do their best to hide the origins from you if it's in thier interest, which it currently is, and combined with the market saturation of chinese products, this kills the viability of that strategy. So yes I do believe embargo is in order, if only to enforce the safety of our own people, as well as the stability of our economy.

  • waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User
    edited November 2007
    There's no reason why a company can't say in their contract "you are going to make this part out of this material, because that's the product we're paying you for" and then ditch a particular manufacturing firm if they violate your contract.

    Except this has been tried and it doesn't work.

    Because while an entire firm might be trustworthy that doesn't mean specific managers at specific plants are. Often cost cutting is done at this level despite contractual agreements and adequate funding.

    We only hear about it when it's a danger or leads to mass product recalls. Often it goes on with no ill effects, or they only become evident long after the sale, and at times it can be a pain in the ass to track down just where things went wrong.

    Even the most trusted brands have problems because a certain batch of x component they used/purchased was below spec at one plant and nobody knows.

    This won't be solved unless China actually steps up and starts enforcing things, or they have a business culture revolution to where this becomes unacceptable.

    If you were to simply ditch every Chinese firm with a stain on it's record you might as well boycott China because the end result is going to be the same.

    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Yeah, I remember that. Chinese do not fuck around when it comes to a high-level official fucking up.

  • GorakGorak Registered User
    edited November 2007
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

  • waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

    It takes a fair amount of alcohol to knock yourself out to the point where you black out the entire night and turn into a vegetable.

    It takes a small amount of GHB to turn you into a horny animal and then black out for the rest of the night. You can also get dosed on it really easily. I drank a drink spiked with GHB accidentally and I ended up a complete mess.

    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

    I know this is probably a bad thing to say here, but you're a fucking moron. I'm sure there are people who have gotten too drunk and just said GHB. If someone has one drink and blacks out, don't you see something fishy with that? GHB is the date rape drug. You can't change that. Alcohol is usually involved and in some cases the only substance used but it sure has hell isn't the date rape drug.

    You want to make the claim that alcohol-only date rape is more prevalent, by all means go for it. Alcohol is not the date rape drug. GHB is.

  • GorakGorak Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

    It takes a fair amount of alcohol to knock yourself out to the point where you black out the entire night and turn into a vegetable.

    Come to a council estate in England on a friday night. It's not uncommon.

    It takes a small amount of GHB to turn you into a horny animal and then black out for the rest of the night. You can also get dosed on it really easily. I drank a drink spiked with GHB accidentally and I ended up a complete mess.

    It's far, far easier though to spike a drink with vodka because it's widely available. In the vast majority of sexual assaults where a drug is involved, that drug is alcohol. If I was going to spike someone, I wouldn't use GHB - the unconscious chick you started fucking may well be dead by the time you've finished. Eww!

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Maybe there's more than one daterape drug you stupid fucks.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • waterloggedwaterlogged Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    Gorak wrote: »
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

    It takes a fair amount of alcohol to knock yourself out to the point where you black out the entire night and turn into a vegetable.

    Come to a council estate in England on a friday night. It's not uncommon.

    It takes a small amount of GHB to turn you into a horny animal and then black out for the rest of the night. You can also get dosed on it really easily. I drank a drink spiked with GHB accidentally and I ended up a complete mess.

    It's far, far easier though to spike a drink with vodka because it's widely available. In the vast majority of sexual assaults where a drug is involved, that drug is alcohol. If I was going to spike someone, I wouldn't use GHB - the unconscious chick you started fucking may well be dead by the time you've finished. Eww!

    That's because alcohol is legal, GHB is not.

    GHB is far more effective if you want to knock someone out, or have them black out. It's faster, takes less to ingest, and is far more potent.

    Democrat that will switch parties and turn red if Clinton is nominated.:P[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • GorakGorak Registered User
    edited November 2007
    It's far, far easier though to spike a drink with vodka because it's widely available. In the vast majority of sexual assaults where a drug is involved, that drug is alcohol. If I was going to spike someone, I wouldn't use GHB - the unconscious chick you started fucking may well be dead by the time you've finished. Eww!

    That's because alcohol is legal, GHB is not.

    GHB is far more effective if you want to knock someone out, or have them black out. It's faster, takes less to ingest, and is far more potent.[/QUOTE]

    I know, but it's also harder to get hold of, easier to overdose and also runs the risk of the girl whose drink you've just spiked collapsing in the middle of the bar and making a scene. Alcohol also has the benefit of deniability - how can you prove the alcohol in her system wasn't deliberately ingested?

    There's more to it than just going for the most potent substance.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

    You clearly have a foggy understanding of how easy or difficult it is to "sneak" an illegal drug into a nightclub. Also about the potency of one shot of vodka.

    To address your point, you don't seem to have one. Do people get drunk and have sometimes ill-advised sex? Yes. Do some people use alcohol to make someone more willing to their sexual advances? Yes. Is GHB used in this manner as well, only faster and more dangerous? Also yes.

    Fine, I'll concede your point. Alcohol is "a" date rape drug. GHB, on the other hand, when used as a drug (instead of, you know, glue), is typically only used for date raping. So we can go around calling GHB or ruffies "a harder date rape drug" or we can, you know, stop arguing semantics and agree that using anything to poison an unwilling person for sexual purposes is a bad thing, and go from there.

    Certainly we shouldn't be putting it on children's toys.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • NibbleNibble FormosaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Why can't NA companies that produce things in China do QC on each shipment as it arrives? It seems irresponsible to simply not bother until a problem comes up and then blame China instead of your own bad business practices. Yes, there are some bad factories in China; but companies here know this, and there's nothing stopping them from spending a little more to ensure quality and safety.

    As a consumer, I'd much rather boycott Spin Master Toys, the company that makes Aqua Dots, than everything ever produced in China.

    sig.php?id=178
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Nibble wrote: »
    Why can't NA companies that produce things in China do QC on each shipment as it arrives? It seems irresponsible to simply not bother until a problem comes up and then blame China instead of your own bad business practices. Yes, there are some bad factories in China; but companies here know this, and there's nothing stopping them from spending a little more to ensure quality and safety.

    As a consumer, I'd much rather boycott Spin Master Toys, the company that makes Aqua Dots, than everything ever produced in China.

    In a perfect world, companies would do their own QC inspections on every component of every product they make, but that is an extremely expensive practice, and the reason that companies outsource to China is to save money in the first place... it kinda defeats the purpose to implement an expensive inspection procedure... I'd be willing to bet that the statistics tell them that angry lawsuits cost less money overall than the kind of careful business practices you're suggesting.

    The upshot is, yes, the company is to blame, but Chinese companies enable them and pressure them via market forces.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

    You clearly have a foggy understanding of how easy or difficult it is to "sneak" an illegal drug into a nightclub. Also about the potency of one shot of vodka.

    Exactly. One shot of vodka won't going to turn anybody* into a staggering drunk, lubricate a girl's panties so much that they'll come off with the slightest provocation, or knock anybody out.

    * - People with alcohol dehydrogenase deficiencies notwithstanding.

    A very small amount of liquid GHB could do any of those things, and is for all intents and purposes odorless, tasteless, and disperses rapidly in a beverage. (Most modern benzos, like rohypnol, are typically produced in a slow-dissolving formulation with a bitter-tasting filling to prevent this use.)

    It is not a stretch at all to call it a date rape drug. It's not the only date rape drug, but I'd venture a guess that it's one of the most common.

    That said, I do want to point out one thing...
    GHB, on the other hand, when used as a drug (instead of, you know, glue), is typically only used for date raping.

    There are people who use it recreationally. I don't think it's as common now as it was in the late 90s, but GHB overdosing (from intentional if irresponsible use) used to be an occasional problem in the rave scene back then.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    That said, I do want to point out one thing...
    GHB, on the other hand, when used as a drug (instead of, you know, glue), is typically only used for date raping.

    There are people who use it recreationally. I don't think it's as common now as it was in the late 90s, but GHB overdosing (from intentional if irresponsible use) used to be an occasional problem in the rave scene back then.

    Ah, once again ravers prove me wrong with their predeliction for ill-advised substance use.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    That said, I do want to point out one thing...
    GHB, on the other hand, when used as a drug (instead of, you know, glue), is typically only used for date raping.

    There are people who use it recreationally. I don't think it's as common now as it was in the late 90s, but GHB overdosing (from intentional if irresponsible use) used to be an occasional problem in the rave scene back then.

    Ah, once again ravers prove me wrong with their predeliction for ill-advised substance use.

    I was at a party once and two girls walk into the kitchen and ask this dude with a popped-collar for some roofies. They put it in orange juice. It was wierd.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was at a party once and two girls walk into the kitchen and ask this dude with a popped-collar for some roofies. They put it in orange juice. It was wierd.

    What did they do afterwards?

    I mean, two girls, a party, orange juice, and voluntary dosing of selves with rohypnol?

    It would be kinda hot if I weren't concerned for their health.

    Damn kids these days.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • DevilGuyDevilGuy Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I was at a party once and two girls walk into the kitchen and ask this dude with a popped-collar for some roofies. They put it in orange juice. It was wierd.

    What did they do afterwards?

    I mean, two girls, a party, orange juice, and voluntary dosing of selves with rohypnol?

    It would be kinda hot if I weren't concerned for their health.

    Damn kids these days.

    I'm guessing they passed out while some frat boys violated them... I'm going to hell for that aren't I?

  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I was at a party once and two girls walk into the kitchen and ask this dude with a popped-collar for some roofies. They put it in orange juice. It was wierd.

    What did they do afterwards?

    I mean, two girls, a party, orange juice, and voluntary dosing of selves with rohypnol?

    It would be kinda hot if I weren't concerned for their health.

    Damn kids these days.

    I'm guessing they passed out while some frat boys violated them... I'm going to hell for that aren't I?

    Hey, at least you'll be right though.

  • redxredx East Bumblefuck, PARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    rohypnol is not that bad, as long as you don't drink with it. If you don't drink, it is just like getting really drunk without the whole puking thing. It's only if you drink with it, that you do the whole blacking-out thing, for most folks at least.

    GHB, that's some fucking retarded shit, particularly around here, where the mindset is that the more caps you drop the harder you are. It's not horibly unpopular with the musclebound steroid pumping crowd.

    The best-laid keikaku o' mice an' men gang aft agley
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    To get back to the whole "Manufacturing in China" thing:

    Saying it's the company's fault for getting their product manufactured in China is ove simplifying the issue. Alot of times, there's not much choice on the company's part.

    As an example off the top of my head, with regards to the boardgame industry. One of the major companies just switched over in recent years to getting their products manufactured in China. People complained about it (lower quality, supporting the Chinese regime, etc.). The company president's response? "No choice. Our company can't compete with the competition who are using Chinese manufacturing to cut costs, unless we do the same.".

    Not all industries work the same. Sometimes, once someones made the plunge, you've got to follow or your company suffers badly because now you've got the more expensive good that doesn't have many advantages over the less expensive one. Not really much of a choice there.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2007
    shryke wrote: »
    DevilGuy wrote: »
    I was at a party once and two girls walk into the kitchen and ask this dude with a popped-collar for some roofies. They put it in orange juice. It was wierd.

    What did they do afterwards?

    I mean, two girls, a party, orange juice, and voluntary dosing of selves with rohypnol?

    It would be kinda hot if I weren't concerned for their health.

    Damn kids these days.

    I'm guessing they passed out while some frat boys violated them... I'm going to hell for that aren't I?

    Hey, at least you'll be right though.

    No, nothing like that, they just ended up really drunk really fast, essentially. Still wierd. The point is that recreational use of date-rape drugs is popular, and if you read the original article it's how officials found out about the inappropriate toy-part in this case.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    Maybe there's more than one daterape drug you stupid fucks.

    Can't let that get in the way of slagging off women who dare to drink in public, the whores. But yes, lets get back to the original topic, hmmm?

    tmsig.jpg
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited November 2007
    I'm worried that I'm really not freaked out enough by this.
    I mean, yes, the products that we get from China occasionally are faulty, sometimes dramatically so, but I would think that this is balanced and outweighed by all of the crap we get that isn't faulty. As a percentage the odds of this happening to anyone is extremely low, its just getting inflated by the media because scandal+corruption+a hint of xenophobia=good "infotainment"
    Also, I was under the impression that the reason China can undercut American manufacturers is because they have a massive and destitute population (though of course the natural solution to that would be to send money into the country by buying China's shit, but I guess that might make too much sense.)

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    Not so much destitute, but there's a lot of young folks desperate to avoid spending their lives in the sticks, and the culture doesn't support sticking up for worker's rights even in the professional classes, let alone unskilled work. My flatmate is an accountant from Hangzhou, and she told me she likes that she doesn't have to suck up to her boss here to avoid being fired (and by suck up, I mean basically 'act as a personal maid and buy them shit on a regular basis, while putting up with however they decide to treat you'). Those factors interact to produce a fairly easy to control workforce.

    tmsig.jpg
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited November 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Not so much destitute, but there's a lot of young folks desperate to avoid spending their lives in the sticks, and the culture doesn't support sticking up for worker's rights even in the professional classes, let alone unskilled work. My flatmate is an accountant from Hangzhou, and she told me she likes that she doesn't have to suck up to her boss here to avoid being fired (and by suck up, I mean basically 'act as a personal maid and buy them shit on a regular basis, while putting up with however they decide to treat you'). Those factors interact to produce a fairly easy to control workforce.

    Sounds like autocracy fits China like a glove, at least for the next century or so until this fixes itself, if it ever does at all.

  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Not so much destitute, but there's a lot of young folks desperate to avoid spending their lives in the sticks, and the culture doesn't support sticking up for worker's rights even in the professional classes, let alone unskilled work. My flatmate is an accountant from Hangzhou, and she told me she likes that she doesn't have to suck up to her boss here to avoid being fired (and by suck up, I mean basically 'act as a personal maid and buy them shit on a regular basis, while putting up with however they decide to treat you'). Those factors interact to produce a fairly easy to control workforce.

    This just makes it more obvious that I need to hire Chinese people to work for me.

  • GorakGorak Registered User
    edited November 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I'd just like to say that GHB is not the "date rape drug" - alcohol is. I know this isn't reallly the point of the thread, but it just annoys me because of the number of young girls who've claimed their drink was spiked with GHB or rohypnol when in reality they just got far to pissed.

    Why would anyone try and sneak an illegal drug into a club to spike a drink when the can just buy vodka right fucking there in the bar?

    You clearly have a foggy understanding of how easy or difficult it is to "sneak" an illegal drug into a nightclub. Also about the potency of one shot of vodka.

    Or I'm used to going to clubs where the security staff search you before letting you in.
    To address your point, you don't seem to have one.

    Point: there is much overhyped bollocks surrounding "date-rape drugs" and so the dangers of alcohol itself are generally overlooked.
    Fine, I'll concede your point. Alcohol is "a" date rape drug. GHB, on the other hand, when used as a drug (instead of, you know, glue), is typically only used for date raping.

    I think we're hitting the cultural barrier. I know of GHB almost exclusively as a recreational drug - not a good drug mind you, I know clubs where GHB is the only drug you'll get kicked out for.

    Also, I'm not saying one shot of vodka is ging to put someone out. A date lasts longer than one drink - hopefully.

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