I don't buy into this "white" thing much. I mean sure, I may look similar to someone from Poland, Germany, Italy or wherever, but its culture and language that generate affinity for me. If you speak English as your first language (or something close) and have read the same set of books/watched the same set of tv shows/movies, got the same cultural references I've got then I'll feel some sort of connection, maybe.
Besides, just because you may be white and live in a settler country (in other words the US, Canada, Australia) it doesn't mean to say you are cultureless. It may seem bland and boring but it is still different - if you don't believe me try living outside of your native country in another English speaking country for a bit and you will soon realise that your own culture is quite unique.
I don't buy into this "white" thing much. I mean sure, I may look similar to someone from Poland, Germany, Italy or wherever, but its culture and language that generate affinity for me. If you speak English as your first language (or something close) and have read the same set of books/watched the same set of tv shows/movies, got the same cultural references I've got then I'll feel some sort of connection, maybe.
Besides, just because you may be white and live in a settler country (in other words the US, Canada, Australia) it doesn't mean to say you are cultureless. It may seem bland and boring but it is still different - if you don't believe me try living outside of your native country in another English speaking country for a bit and you will soon realise that your own culture is quite unique.
To repeat. THE US HAS NO ONE WHITE CULTURE.
Should we make up a white culture? Like, now?
We could start by figuring out in what ways certain clearly defined cultural groups act differently than us, and then do those things differently than them.
To answer your point - how exactly is culture defined? Is it stand alone or is it in reference to other cultures? Like, can one claim a separate culture if one has many neighbouring regions with similar but slightly different practices/beliefs? So does the US have a bunch of related but slightly different "white" cultures?
I don't buy into this "white" thing much. I mean sure, I may look similar to someone from Poland, Germany, Italy or wherever, but its culture and language that generate affinity for me. If you speak English as your first language (or something close) and have read the same set of books/watched the same set of tv shows/movies, got the same cultural references I've got then I'll feel some sort of connection, maybe.
Besides, just because you may be white and live in a settler country (in other words the US, Canada, Australia) it doesn't mean to say you are cultureless. It may seem bland and boring but it is still different - if you don't believe me try living outside of your native country in another English speaking country for a bit and you will soon realise that your own culture is quite unique.
To repeat. THE US HAS NO ONE WHITE CULTURE.
Should we make up a white culture? Like, now?
White culture consists of an affinity for burgers, football, and overbites while dancing.
Done and done.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I think it's important to note the differences between the definitions of Race, Ethnicity, and Nationality. Here are the definitions according to dictionary.com:
Race (in regards to Anthropology)-
a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
Ethnicity (according to the American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy)-
ethnicity [(eth-nis-uh-tee)]
Identity with or membership in a particular racial, national, or cultural group and observance of that group's customs, beliefs, and language.
Nationality-
1. the status of belonging to a particular nation, whether by birth or naturalization: the nationality of an immigrant.
Now, I believe that it is important to recognize that there are countless cultures in our world. It is possible to make a culture out of anything, and there are several levels of culture. There most certainly is a white culture in the United States, as there are other white cultures in other parts of the world. While "White culture" maybe be a very general or broad culture, it does exist.
I believe that the type of culture this thread is about, is more of a culture based on socioeconomic status and geographical locations. In our society, socioeconomic status plays a large role in how we act, live, and associate with others. Additionally, unfortunately in our society Race is often involved in socioeconomic status. Because socioeconomic status plays such a large role in our society, the larger and more general cultures are based on this status.
I come from a small rural town. The majority of the people living in my hometown live slightly above the poverty level. This has a large effect in how everyone interacts and lives their lives- in turn creating a culture for our town. The culture of our town is very similar to the culture of other small towns across Rural Illinois, or even much of the United States. My town was around 98% white. My high school had only one black student and a handful of hispanic students. Despite these peoples race, they still shared a culture with people of the same socioeconomic status... the majority of the people they shared it with were white. Whether or not you can call this a white culture, I don't know... but in this case the majority of the culture is white, with a few minorities fitting in with the culture perfectly.
Currently I live in a rich Chicago suburb. The culture of this rich suburb is very different from my hometown. The reason for this is because the much higher socioeconomic status of the suburb, and I believe it's geographic distance from Chicago. According to wikipedia Naperville (where I'm at) has a racial make up of: "The racial makeup of the city was 82.00% White, 2.54% African American, 0.07% Native American, 12.65% Asian, 0.00% Pacific Islander, 1.26% from other races, and 1.48% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 4.23% of the population." The racial diversity of the people living here is a little greater than my hometown, but I am still able to be in the same culture as minorities as well as the white population. There are some cultural differences between some of the races here, but on a whole I can relate and be unrelated culturally with everyone on the same level, despite their race.
Now i'm sure if you took a look at a city in the United states that has a different racial make up (where whites are the minority, or perhaps it is a very very wealthy community or an incredibly poor community) You will find the culture will probably be different from each other, from what I believe is based on socioeconomic status. A specific race may outnumber other races in that community, which will help shape and define that communities culture.
Going back to the OP's statements, I guess I'll add in my personal views on my own culture. I am white, and I often find myself in a culture or lifestyle that may be different from other races. I believe that the way I live differently from other cultures has helped me create an interest in other cultures. I am finishing up my degree in Psychology, and hope to one day do something with cultural Psychology.
I believe there are several reasons why I am interested in other cultures, but none of those reasons have to do with me being white. For a large part of my life, my parents have tried to expose me to other cultures and help me be understanding of the way that other people live. I have had several foreign exchange students live with my family, and I consider them family now. My close relations with them have made me curious and want to experience the cultures they are from, since they were willing to leave their culture and experience mine.
Another reason is because I often find myself disgusted with the way some of my culture (in this case a general American culture) acts or is even portrayed. Now I realize that not every American is the same, and not every member of a culture is the same. However because of my involvement in American culture I have found myself falling into habits that I think are unhealthy for me. Specifically I have found myself become more and more complacent as I've gotten older. I am often self satisified living a comfortable and predictable life where I have enough health and wealth so that I experience very little discomfort. And it bothers me that if I continue with my life style that I might one day show little regard or care for people of other cultures that don't have the means to live a comfortable and easy life, and that I might become more and more ethnocentric. I often look around at the other people in the same cultures as myself and I realize that I don't want to be like them (which is an entirely personal decision. They are not bad people, I just want to live differently). Because of this I want to gain experiences that open up my understanding to other cultures.
I do not believe I am like this because I am white, or because of white culture. I believe I am like this because of my personality and the other cultures I am a part of.
To answer your point - how exactly is culture defined? Is it stand alone or is it in reference to other cultures? Like, can one claim a separate culture if one has many neighbouring regions with similar but slightly different practices/beliefs? So does the US have a bunch of related but slightly different "white" cultures?
I think there's plenty of shared aspects of american culture. I also thinking crosses racial lines more often than people tend to think. As a country we're very good at absorbing things from all the immigrant populations over the years. It seems to me like when they don't know which culture to associate things with anymore it gets filed under "generic white american" culture.
If I said all black guys are in gangs I'd be shot down as a racist pretty damn fast. However if someone looks at me and sees a white face it seems perfectly acceptable for them to make all types of assumptions about my background. And as I said before most of those assumptions are wrong.
While the OP has plenty wrong with it, I think the underlying idea has nothing to do with 'lol white people', and much more to do with Americans.
People in the US grab onto parts of their heritage and hold on. It's pretty odd for me, being an Irish/British dual citizen (got passports and stuff) to see Americans saying 'I'm Irish' when they sometimes don't know anything more about Ireland than some kind of reflexive 'Fuck the English' and 'lol green beer'.
It's quite common for people of all skin colour in the US to grab onto other cultures, either one from their own history (Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Korean-Americans) or one that has nothing to do with it (oooh weaboo).
It's a good solution to one of the terrible dilemmas posed by US culture - you have to belong and you have to be an individual. Satisfying these opposing drives is tricky, and this is one of the attempted solutions.
This may seem unrelated but it seems to me that a large amount of white Americans are completely clueless when it comes to dealing with or knowing anything about the other ethnic cultures or even just physical traits. This is all anecdotal, so keep that mind, it shouldn't be taken as me thinking that most or even all whites are like this.
-A nurse who works with my sister in an office told her that she should get her gums "looked at" because she thought the natural deposits of pigment were some kind of disease.
-I made a serious comment about how blacks have much dryer hair than others and usually put in oil-based hair gel in order to retain moisture. The girls reaction that I was talking to
Her: "Oh, Gigaton, you're so funny" *chuckles*
Me: "That wasn't a joke you stupid bitch."
-Incalculable amount of times I was asked if I could "get sunburnt".
-A coworker that thought Ramadan was a Jewish holiday.
-People refering to black hair of any kind as "weave".
-A guy who asked a coworker of mine if since he was Indian, did his parents use the Kama Sutra. (seriously)
-A customer at the store I work calling a hacky-sack with green and black stripes as "Rastifarian" despite having absolutely no idea what that term even means.
-Coworker of my mom saying she was worried about how dark her grandchildren will be since thier daughter dated a black man, adding the comment "we didn't raise her like that" and having no clue as to why my mom would be offended.
Like I said the examples were simply anecdotal and shouldn't be taken that seriously, but the point I'm trying to make with them is how it seems like a higher proportion of american whites (relative to people of other demographics in the country) make absolutely no effort to understand other cultures and even seem to outright avoid learning anything to do with other ethnicities and cultures.
Those people with red hair so they immediately think they're allowed to continuously drink to excess because their 1/100 Irish and its in their blood.
I have red hair.
I don't preach Irish pride but sometimes I feel more connected to other red-heads.
We are a white minority in a way.
Those people with red hair so they immediately think they're allowed to continuously drink to excess because their 1/100 Irish and its in their blood.
I have red hair.
I don't preach Irish pride but sometimes I feel more connected to other red-heads.
We are a white minority in a way.
I don't think redheads are minority based on the fact that a vast majority of them are extremely hot. But, the genetic trait for red hair is technically very recessive compared to other colors. You guys are a rare breed.
Aside from the co-worker one (very offensive, I agree) and maybe the nurse one, I don't see how the questions are particularly bad. Ignorant, yes, and I'm sure it must get annoying, but, well, for example, the sunburn one - when is anyone ever told who can get sunburned and who can't? It's not a topic covered in biology, and if you've grown up in an all-white or mostly white area, is it really such a bad question? At least people are asking rather than making assumptions.
The fact they're actually asking says to me that they are trying to learn.
Also, people in general are ignorant of other cultures, regardless of skin colour. The thing is that the majority are always going to appear more ignorant than the minority because, well, they've simply not had as much exposure to the minority. Can they really be blamed for such?
Anyway, to address a few points in general: The US has a lot of unique culture. Try to see it from an outsider's perspective. So many things are completely alien to, say, someone in Europe (although like I said before, a lot has been exported).
American football. Baseball. A lot of music genres were started in/are much bigger in the US. The majority of Hollywood films have a very distinctive feel. Schools seem utterly bizarre, what with the cliques and the huge emphasis placed on band and sports. The long-hours, lack-of-holidays working frame of mind. The way everyone learns to drive a car so early and how nearly everyone owns one. Buildings and the way cities are laid out are completely different. The fast food culture (okay, that one's spread pretty successfully). Etc. etc.
The words I used were "large amount" "relative" and "higher proportion" if that is synonymous with "all" and "only" I must be behind on all of that fancy lingo the kids are using these days. Or you just need a thesaurus.
the subject of your first sentence was "a large amount of white americans". That implies your post, since it doesn't specify anywhere else is about white people.
I really don't want ot get into a semantical debate.
Aside from the co-worker one (very offensive, I agree) and maybe the nurse one, I don't see how the questions are particularly bad. Ignorant, yes, and I'm sure it must get annoying, but, well, for example, the sunburn one - when is anyone ever told who can get sunburned and who can't? It's not a topic covered in biology, and if you've grown up in an all-white or mostly white area, is it really such a bad question? At least people are asking rather than making assumptions.
The fact they're actually asking says to me that they are trying to learn.
Also, people in general are ignorant of other cultures, regardless of skin colour. The thing is that the majority are always going to appear more ignorant than the minority because, well, they've simply not had as much exposure to the minority. Can they really be blamed for such?
I strongly disagree. But I seriously don't feel like explaining too much of it.
[QUOTE=Gigaton;3762916This is all anecdotal, so keep that mind, it shouldn't be taken as me thinking that most or even all whites are like this.[/QUOTE]
I can't comment so well on the racial part, since I've never been asked probing questions by a non-white person nor have I asked a non-white person probing questions (but heck, there were a tonne of things I didn't know that only the internet has taught me, and what if I didn't have the internet? How was I supposed to find out?)
But I've been in the US, and had questions asked of me about the UK that would seem pretty ridiculous if I didn't accept the fact they've never visited the UK and couldn't be expected to know certain things.
EDIT: It's a bit mean to say 'I strongly disagree' but then say you're not going to go into it. This is what debate and discourse is for after all.
It's a bit mean to say 'I strongly disagree' but then say you're not going to go into it. This is what debate and discourse is for after all.
Nothing against you, but I have a certain "condition" and constantly have to feign empathy and interest for others. This is very draining and the internet is my haven from pretending to care.
To elaborate, my little sister is a red-head, and even her own brothers tease her. She really hates it.
It's a gorgeous colour though and she often gets stopped in the street and asked 'is it natural?' 'what do you do to keep it so shiny?' 'I wish I had hair like that!'
The physical assault is rare, but I have to admit the slurs are pretty darn common.
It's weird. There's like this list of groups that are "safe" to rip on endlessly. The French are another, though usually to their backs. Red heads just get it full on in the face though. It's nuts.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited December 2007
But really Gigaton, I agree that white people can be pretty ignorant of black people - mostly because their central exposure is generally what they see on TV or hear on the radio rather than, you know, actually knowing black people.
I'm sure it's a pain in the ass, and it's not really your responsibility to educate other people, but I think it's worth remembering that people who ask these asinine and borderline-offensive questions out of ignorance aren't generally being intentionally offensive so much as they're trying to square the ignorance and misinformation that's been fed to them with the actual world.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
To elaborate, my little sister is a red-head, and even her own brothers tease her. She really hates it.
It's a gorgeous colour though and she often gets stopped in the street and asked 'is it natural?' 'what do you do to keep it so shiny?' 'I wish I had hair like that!'
Of course, they're saying this as they're running her out of town.
But really Gigaton, I agree that white people can be pretty ignorant of black people - mostly because their central exposure is generally what they see on TV or hear on the radio rather than, you know, actually knowing black people.
I'm sure it's a pain in the ass, and it's not really your responsibility to educate other people, but I think it's worth remembering that people who ask these asinine and borderline-offensive questions out of ignorance aren't generally being intentionally offensive so much as they're trying to square the ignorance and misinformation that's been fed to them with the actual world.
Very well said. However, what I disagreed with wasn't the intention of the person per se; It was just the border-line offensive things being said regardless of intent as being "innocent" or "benign". It's difficult for me to explain other than to compare it with how an explanation of why isn't the same thing as a justification for it. If someone is from a culture where stealing is expected they can't be excused from stealing in another culture simply because of their ignorance of the law. Or how Tube will ban someone for saying the "n" word regardless of their knowledge of forums rules. It's rather cold, but people have to realize they're not in Kansas anymore and ignorance doesn't put a protective bubble around people to protect them from backlash of others that are offended.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited December 2007
In fairness when I was the only white kid living in the DC hood I got some odd questions. They weren't generally offensive so much as kind of incredulous.
I don't hold much truck with white racists; a lot of my extended family are Florida rednecks who have passed down some pretty shitty attitudes to their kids. I totally approve of these people being called out when they say shit, and do it myself when I have the opportunity.
I am prone to cut people some slack when they're just plain naive and ignorant, though. It just seems like a better situation all around when people aren't afraid to clarify their misinformation and educate their ignorance.
A red-haired family claims to have been driven from their Newcastle home because of abuse. Why is the harassment of redheads dismissed as just harmless fun?
Here's a joke. "What's the difference between a terrorist and a redhead?"
Here's the punchline. "You can negotiate with a terrorist."
Is this offensive? If it was made in your workplace, within hearing of a redheaded colleague, would you make a fuss? Probably not.
But mock someone's ethnicity, religion or sexuality and you will attract the beady eye of management. Make a sexist joke and prepare to be dismissed as an antediluvian relic.
Carrot-top, copper-top, ginger-nut, ginger minger, bluey (among Australians), Duracell, Ronald McDonald, Simply Red, Queen Elizabeth. And so on for hours and hours of the typical redhead's life. No wonder some gloss over their hair colour as "auburn" and "strawberry blonde" and even "titian".
Photographer Charlotte Rushton has been chronicling the UK's redheads for a book, Ginger Snaps. Of the 300 she snapped, only two have been spared bullying because of their hair. She herself has suffered verbal abuse from complete strangers.
"I was on the Tube, pregnant, and I was really humiliated by this drunk yob. He was shouting 'do the cuffs and the collars match?' He got right up into my face. You don't do that to other people."
She believes the phenomenon is long-standing and uniquely British in its most virulent form.
"In other countries redheads will get teased at school but it stops when they become adults. If you are a woman you are fiery and alluring, beautiful."
In adult life, women get stereotyped and red-haired men take much of the worst abuse. Treatment of red-haired children in school ranges from mild taunts to grim persecution.
Michele Eliot, the American director of British children's charity Kidscape, regularly has significant numbers of red-haired children in courses on coping with bullying.
"There is nothing like this in the US where having red hair is not a precursor to having someone abuse you. Red hair is considered glamorous."
Bullies at school and in later life may sense that ill-treatment of the red-haired will not be treated as seriously by the authorities as persecution of other groups.
"Bullies think that person is outside the norm, they will be able to attack them. The bullies find something to pick on. The bully has a problem and needs a victim," Ms Eliot says.
While there has been at least one report of a serious anti-red hair hate crime in the UK - a 20-year-old stabbed in the back in 2003 - it's unclear whose responsibility it is to monitor discrimination.
Conservative backbencher Patrick Mercer, when recently sacked for alleged racism, sought to get himself out of a hole by comparing treatment of black soldiers to those with red hair.
"That's the way it is in the Army. If someone is slow on the assault course, you'd get people shouting: 'Come on you fat bastard, come on you ginger bastard, come on you black bastard.'"
One of these three epithets would now be regarded as totally unacceptable, and possibly against the law. Even the first, mocking someone's weight, is under a sustained assault from feminists and those concerned about what society's treatment of weight issues does to vulnerable teenagers.
But the abuse can be far from innocuous.
"We talk about kicking racism out of sport but this is just as bad in its way," said Reading striker Dave Kitson in 2005. He can't have been delighted when the Daily Star reported his remarks under the headline "Kitson's a right ginger whinger". Or when players' association chief Gordon Taylor said: "It belittles racism to compare the two issues."
RED HAIR MYTHOLOGY
Redheads sacrificed in ancient Egypt
Associated with witches and vampires in Europe
Reputed to bleed more
Mary Magdalene, Adam, Judas and even Jesus depicted as redheads
Journalist Sharon Jaffa - also a red-head - says society must stop its ginger-baiting.
"Growing up as a redhead I was lucky enough to escape with just the occasional name-calling - having the surname Jaffa was no doubt a double-whammy. But attacking someone on the basis of their hair colour can be every bit as damaging as persecuting someone for their race or religion, and therefore, in some cases, needs to be taken just as seriously."
Red hair has great cultural resonance. Red is the colour of heat, danger and warnings. When applied to women, it is the colour of sensuousness, fiery temperament and emotional instability.
"Lilith [Adam's lover] was a redhead. It indicates red hair was bad. Shakespeare made all his most menacing characters wear red wigs. That seeps into culture," Ms Rushton says.
So when does this date from? Some claim it could be a throwback to anti-Irish sentiment from the 19th Century and before when the Irish, with a greater prevalence of red hair, were regarded as ethnically inferior.
Anecdotally at least, males get more abuse than females.
Patrick O'Sullivan, head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit, says he has never come across a link. "People could feel forbidden to attack their usual victims and are searching around for ones that have not yet achieved the protection of the law."
Professor Larry Ray, a sociologist at the University of Kent and an expert on racial discrimination, says the perpetrators could be habitual bullies. "If they are engaging in one kind of harassment they are engaging in others. They are looking for targets."
For those who claim their workplace taunts are just harmless banter, it could be stress rather than an anthropological aversion to red hair.
Workplace psychologist Professor Cary Cooper, of Lancaster University, says abuse can be "an unhealthy release valve for stress" and redheads, as a visible minority not protected by law, have become a target.
While other forms of the discrimination are the subject of marches, lobbying and education campaigns, redheads cannot expect the arrival of the politically correct cavalry anytime soon.
A red-haired family claims to have been driven from their Newcastle home because of abuse. Why is the harassment of redheads dismissed as just harmless fun?
Here's a joke. "What's the difference between a terrorist and a redhead?"
Here's the punchline. "You can negotiate with a terrorist."
Is this offensive? If it was made in your workplace, within hearing of a redheaded colleague, would you make a fuss? Probably not.
But mock someone's ethnicity, religion or sexuality and you will attract the beady eye of management. Make a sexist joke and prepare to be dismissed as an antediluvian relic.
Carrot-top, copper-top, ginger-nut, ginger minger, bluey (among Australians), Duracell, Ronald McDonald, Simply Red, Queen Elizabeth. And so on for hours and hours of the typical redhead's life. No wonder some gloss over their hair colour as "auburn" and "strawberry blonde" and even "titian".
Photographer Charlotte Rushton has been chronicling the UK's redheads for a book, Ginger Snaps. Of the 300 she snapped, only two have been spared bullying because of their hair. She herself has suffered verbal abuse from complete strangers.
"I was on the Tube, pregnant, and I was really humiliated by this drunk yob. He was shouting 'do the cuffs and the collars match?' He got right up into my face. You don't do that to other people."
She believes the phenomenon is long-standing and uniquely British in its most virulent form.
"In other countries redheads will get teased at school but it stops when they become adults. If you are a woman you are fiery and alluring, beautiful."
In adult life, women get stereotyped and red-haired men take much of the worst abuse. Treatment of red-haired children in school ranges from mild taunts to grim persecution.
Michele Eliot, the American director of British children's charity Kidscape, regularly has significant numbers of red-haired children in courses on coping with bullying.
"There is nothing like this in the US where having red hair is not a precursor to having someone abuse you. Red hair is considered glamorous."
Bullies at school and in later life may sense that ill-treatment of the red-haired will not be treated as seriously by the authorities as persecution of other groups.
"Bullies think that person is outside the norm, they will be able to attack them. The bullies find something to pick on. The bully has a problem and needs a victim," Ms Eliot says.
While there has been at least one report of a serious anti-red hair hate crime in the UK - a 20-year-old stabbed in the back in 2003 - it's unclear whose responsibility it is to monitor discrimination.
Conservative backbencher Patrick Mercer, when recently sacked for alleged racism, sought to get himself out of a hole by comparing treatment of black soldiers to those with red hair.
"That's the way it is in the Army. If someone is slow on the assault course, you'd get people shouting: 'Come on you fat bastard, come on you ginger bastard, come on you black bastard.'"
One of these three epithets would now be regarded as totally unacceptable, and possibly against the law. Even the first, mocking someone's weight, is under a sustained assault from feminists and those concerned about what society's treatment of weight issues does to vulnerable teenagers.
But the abuse can be far from innocuous.
"We talk about kicking racism out of sport but this is just as bad in its way," said Reading striker Dave Kitson in 2005. He can't have been delighted when the Daily Star reported his remarks under the headline "Kitson's a right ginger whinger". Or when players' association chief Gordon Taylor said: "It belittles racism to compare the two issues."
RED HAIR MYTHOLOGY
Redheads sacrificed in ancient Egypt
Associated with witches and vampires in Europe
Reputed to bleed more
Mary Magdalene, Adam, Judas and even Jesus depicted as redheads
Journalist Sharon Jaffa - also a red-head - says society must stop its ginger-baiting.
"Growing up as a redhead I was lucky enough to escape with just the occasional name-calling - having the surname Jaffa was no doubt a double-whammy. But attacking someone on the basis of their hair colour can be every bit as damaging as persecuting someone for their race or religion, and therefore, in some cases, needs to be taken just as seriously."
Red hair has great cultural resonance. Red is the colour of heat, danger and warnings. When applied to women, it is the colour of sensuousness, fiery temperament and emotional instability.
"Lilith [Adam's lover] was a redhead. It indicates red hair was bad. Shakespeare made all his most menacing characters wear red wigs. That seeps into culture," Ms Rushton says.
So when does this date from? Some claim it could be a throwback to anti-Irish sentiment from the 19th Century and before when the Irish, with a greater prevalence of red hair, were regarded as ethnically inferior.
Anecdotally at least, males get more abuse than females.
Patrick O'Sullivan, head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit, says he has never come across a link. "People could feel forbidden to attack their usual victims and are searching around for ones that have not yet achieved the protection of the law."
Professor Larry Ray, a sociologist at the University of Kent and an expert on racial discrimination, says the perpetrators could be habitual bullies. "If they are engaging in one kind of harassment they are engaging in others. They are looking for targets."
For those who claim their workplace taunts are just harmless banter, it could be stress rather than an anthropological aversion to red hair.
Workplace psychologist Professor Cary Cooper, of Lancaster University, says abuse can be "an unhealthy release valve for stress" and redheads, as a visible minority not protected by law, have become a target.
While other forms of the discrimination are the subject of marches, lobbying and education campaigns, redheads cannot expect the arrival of the politically correct cavalry anytime soon.
That's seriously overstated. Sure kids at school get picked on for being ginger, much like kids get picked on for pretty much whatever marks them out as difference. It really doesn't occur all that much in adults though.
The "ginger" thing makes more sense after reading the article. In my city (in the U.S.) redheads are probably 1% or less of the population, but I and most people I know find them attractive.
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
since it's recessive redheads should disappear entirely eventually.
Recessive genes are equally as likely as dominant genes to get passed on, so assuming one doesn't confer an advantage over the other there's no reason for them to disappear.
Wow I've never heard of this anti-ginger business... that's pretty hilarious / scary / wtf?
I don't have red hair but I've always admired it -- it's not always synonymous with attractiveness, but the most attractive girls I've ever seen were red heads.
I don't have red hair but I've always admired it -- it's not always synonymous with attractiveness, but the most attractive girls I've ever seen were red heads.
it frequently does not look good on male teenagers, or young adults. or the middle aged.
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Should we make up a white culture? Like, now?
We could start by figuring out in what ways certain clearly defined cultural groups act differently than us, and then do those things differently than them.
White culture consists of an affinity for burgers, football, and overbites while dancing.
Done and done.
Race (in regards to Anthropology)-
a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
Ethnicity (according to the American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy)-
ethnicity [(eth-nis-uh-tee)]
Identity with or membership in a particular racial, national, or cultural group and observance of that group's customs, beliefs, and language.
Nationality-
1. the status of belonging to a particular nation, whether by birth or naturalization: the nationality of an immigrant.
Now, I believe that it is important to recognize that there are countless cultures in our world. It is possible to make a culture out of anything, and there are several levels of culture. There most certainly is a white culture in the United States, as there are other white cultures in other parts of the world. While "White culture" maybe be a very general or broad culture, it does exist.
I believe that the type of culture this thread is about, is more of a culture based on socioeconomic status and geographical locations. In our society, socioeconomic status plays a large role in how we act, live, and associate with others. Additionally, unfortunately in our society Race is often involved in socioeconomic status. Because socioeconomic status plays such a large role in our society, the larger and more general cultures are based on this status.
I come from a small rural town. The majority of the people living in my hometown live slightly above the poverty level. This has a large effect in how everyone interacts and lives their lives- in turn creating a culture for our town. The culture of our town is very similar to the culture of other small towns across Rural Illinois, or even much of the United States. My town was around 98% white. My high school had only one black student and a handful of hispanic students. Despite these peoples race, they still shared a culture with people of the same socioeconomic status... the majority of the people they shared it with were white. Whether or not you can call this a white culture, I don't know... but in this case the majority of the culture is white, with a few minorities fitting in with the culture perfectly.
Currently I live in a rich Chicago suburb. The culture of this rich suburb is very different from my hometown. The reason for this is because the much higher socioeconomic status of the suburb, and I believe it's geographic distance from Chicago. According to wikipedia Naperville (where I'm at) has a racial make up of: "The racial makeup of the city was 82.00% White, 2.54% African American, 0.07% Native American, 12.65% Asian, 0.00% Pacific Islander, 1.26% from other races, and 1.48% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 4.23% of the population." The racial diversity of the people living here is a little greater than my hometown, but I am still able to be in the same culture as minorities as well as the white population. There are some cultural differences between some of the races here, but on a whole I can relate and be unrelated culturally with everyone on the same level, despite their race.
Now i'm sure if you took a look at a city in the United states that has a different racial make up (where whites are the minority, or perhaps it is a very very wealthy community or an incredibly poor community) You will find the culture will probably be different from each other, from what I believe is based on socioeconomic status. A specific race may outnumber other races in that community, which will help shape and define that communities culture.
Going back to the OP's statements, I guess I'll add in my personal views on my own culture. I am white, and I often find myself in a culture or lifestyle that may be different from other races. I believe that the way I live differently from other cultures has helped me create an interest in other cultures. I am finishing up my degree in Psychology, and hope to one day do something with cultural Psychology.
I believe there are several reasons why I am interested in other cultures, but none of those reasons have to do with me being white. For a large part of my life, my parents have tried to expose me to other cultures and help me be understanding of the way that other people live. I have had several foreign exchange students live with my family, and I consider them family now. My close relations with them have made me curious and want to experience the cultures they are from, since they were willing to leave their culture and experience mine.
Another reason is because I often find myself disgusted with the way some of my culture (in this case a general American culture) acts or is even portrayed. Now I realize that not every American is the same, and not every member of a culture is the same. However because of my involvement in American culture I have found myself falling into habits that I think are unhealthy for me. Specifically I have found myself become more and more complacent as I've gotten older. I am often self satisified living a comfortable and predictable life where I have enough health and wealth so that I experience very little discomfort. And it bothers me that if I continue with my life style that I might one day show little regard or care for people of other cultures that don't have the means to live a comfortable and easy life, and that I might become more and more ethnocentric. I often look around at the other people in the same cultures as myself and I realize that I don't want to be like them (which is an entirely personal decision. They are not bad people, I just want to live differently). Because of this I want to gain experiences that open up my understanding to other cultures.
I do not believe I am like this because I am white, or because of white culture. I believe I am like this because of my personality and the other cultures I am a part of.
I think there's plenty of shared aspects of american culture. I also thinking crosses racial lines more often than people tend to think. As a country we're very good at absorbing things from all the immigrant populations over the years. It seems to me like when they don't know which culture to associate things with anymore it gets filed under "generic white american" culture.
If I said all black guys are in gangs I'd be shot down as a racist pretty damn fast. However if someone looks at me and sees a white face it seems perfectly acceptable for them to make all types of assumptions about my background. And as I said before most of those assumptions are wrong.
People in the US grab onto parts of their heritage and hold on. It's pretty odd for me, being an Irish/British dual citizen (got passports and stuff) to see Americans saying 'I'm Irish' when they sometimes don't know anything more about Ireland than some kind of reflexive 'Fuck the English' and 'lol green beer'.
It's quite common for people of all skin colour in the US to grab onto other cultures, either one from their own history (Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Korean-Americans) or one that has nothing to do with it (oooh weaboo).
It's a good solution to one of the terrible dilemmas posed by US culture - you have to belong and you have to be an individual. Satisfying these opposing drives is tricky, and this is one of the attempted solutions.
It's got bugger-all to do with skin colour.
-A nurse who works with my sister in an office told her that she should get her gums "looked at" because she thought the natural deposits of pigment were some kind of disease.
-I made a serious comment about how blacks have much dryer hair than others and usually put in oil-based hair gel in order to retain moisture. The girls reaction that I was talking to
Her: "Oh, Gigaton, you're so funny" *chuckles*
Me: "That wasn't a joke you stupid bitch."
-Incalculable amount of times I was asked if I could "get sunburnt".
-A coworker that thought Ramadan was a Jewish holiday.
-People refering to black hair of any kind as "weave".
-A guy who asked a coworker of mine if since he was Indian, did his parents use the Kama Sutra. (seriously)
-A customer at the store I work calling a hacky-sack with green and black stripes as "Rastifarian" despite having absolutely no idea what that term even means.
-Coworker of my mom saying she was worried about how dark her grandchildren will be since thier daughter dated a black man, adding the comment "we didn't raise her like that" and having no clue as to why my mom would be offended.
Like I said the examples were simply anecdotal and shouldn't be taken that seriously, but the point I'm trying to make with them is how it seems like a higher proportion of american whites (relative to people of other demographics in the country) make absolutely no effort to understand other cultures and even seem to outright avoid learning anything to do with other ethnicities and cultures.
Thoughts?
I have red hair.
I don't preach Irish pride but sometimes I feel more connected to other red-heads.
We are a white minority in a way.
I don't think redheads are minority based on the fact that a vast majority of them are extremely hot. But, the genetic trait for red hair is technically very recessive compared to other colors. You guys are a rare breed.
And giga those quite sound like dumb people to me. I think i's silly to claim only white people are ignorant about other races.
Nexus 2: Show me where I said it was ONLY white people and I'll apologize. Otherwise, work on reading comprehension.
Aside from the co-worker one (very offensive, I agree) and maybe the nurse one, I don't see how the questions are particularly bad. Ignorant, yes, and I'm sure it must get annoying, but, well, for example, the sunburn one - when is anyone ever told who can get sunburned and who can't? It's not a topic covered in biology, and if you've grown up in an all-white or mostly white area, is it really such a bad question? At least people are asking rather than making assumptions.
The fact they're actually asking says to me that they are trying to learn.
Also, people in general are ignorant of other cultures, regardless of skin colour. The thing is that the majority are always going to appear more ignorant than the minority because, well, they've simply not had as much exposure to the minority. Can they really be blamed for such?
Anyway, to address a few points in general: The US has a lot of unique culture. Try to see it from an outsider's perspective. So many things are completely alien to, say, someone in Europe (although like I said before, a lot has been exported).
American football. Baseball. A lot of music genres were started in/are much bigger in the US. The majority of Hollywood films have a very distinctive feel. Schools seem utterly bizarre, what with the cliques and the huge emphasis placed on band and sports. The long-hours, lack-of-holidays working frame of mind. The way everyone learns to drive a car so early and how nearly everyone owns one. Buildings and the way cities are laid out are completely different. The fast food culture (okay, that one's spread pretty successfully). Etc. etc.
I really don't want ot get into a semantical debate.
I strongly disagree. But I seriously don't feel like explaining too much of it.
I can't comment so well on the racial part, since I've never been asked probing questions by a non-white person nor have I asked a non-white person probing questions (but heck, there were a tonne of things I didn't know that only the internet has taught me, and what if I didn't have the internet? How was I supposed to find out?)
But I've been in the US, and had questions asked of me about the UK that would seem pretty ridiculous if I didn't accept the fact they've never visited the UK and couldn't be expected to know certain things.
EDIT: It's a bit mean to say 'I strongly disagree' but then say you're not going to go into it. This is what debate and discourse is for after all.
Over in the UK there's apparently an epidemic of anti-ginger sentiment, where they get physically assaulted, slurred, etc. at random.
Nothing against you, but I have a certain "condition" and constantly have to feign empathy and interest for others. This is very draining and the internet is my haven from pretending to care.
Seriously.
I'm not trying to be an "anonymous jerk".
It's a gorgeous colour though and she often gets stopped in the street and asked 'is it natural?' 'what do you do to keep it so shiny?' 'I wish I had hair like that!'
It's weird. There's like this list of groups that are "safe" to rip on endlessly. The French are another, though usually to their backs. Red heads just get it full on in the face though. It's nuts.
I'm sure it's a pain in the ass, and it's not really your responsibility to educate other people, but I think it's worth remembering that people who ask these asinine and borderline-offensive questions out of ignorance aren't generally being intentionally offensive so much as they're trying to square the ignorance and misinformation that's been fed to them with the actual world.
Of course, they're saying this as they're running her out of town.
Very well said. However, what I disagreed with wasn't the intention of the person per se; It was just the border-line offensive things being said regardless of intent as being "innocent" or "benign". It's difficult for me to explain other than to compare it with how an explanation of why isn't the same thing as a justification for it. If someone is from a culture where stealing is expected they can't be excused from stealing in another culture simply because of their ignorance of the law. Or how Tube will ban someone for saying the "n" word regardless of their knowledge of forums rules. It's rather cold, but people have to realize they're not in Kansas anymore and ignorance doesn't put a protective bubble around people to protect them from backlash of others that are offended.
I don't hold much truck with white racists; a lot of my extended family are Florida rednecks who have passed down some pretty shitty attitudes to their kids. I totally approve of these people being called out when they say shit, and do it myself when I have the opportunity.
I am prone to cut people some slack when they're just plain naive and ignorant, though. It just seems like a better situation all around when people aren't afraid to clarify their misinformation and educate their ignorance.
I've never seen this in my life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6725653.stm
Here's a joke. "What's the difference between a terrorist and a redhead?"
Here's the punchline. "You can negotiate with a terrorist."
Is this offensive? If it was made in your workplace, within hearing of a redheaded colleague, would you make a fuss? Probably not.
But mock someone's ethnicity, religion or sexuality and you will attract the beady eye of management. Make a sexist joke and prepare to be dismissed as an antediluvian relic.
Carrot-top, copper-top, ginger-nut, ginger minger, bluey (among Australians), Duracell, Ronald McDonald, Simply Red, Queen Elizabeth. And so on for hours and hours of the typical redhead's life. No wonder some gloss over their hair colour as "auburn" and "strawberry blonde" and even "titian".
Photographer Charlotte Rushton has been chronicling the UK's redheads for a book, Ginger Snaps. Of the 300 she snapped, only two have been spared bullying because of their hair. She herself has suffered verbal abuse from complete strangers.
"I was on the Tube, pregnant, and I was really humiliated by this drunk yob. He was shouting 'do the cuffs and the collars match?' He got right up into my face. You don't do that to other people."
She believes the phenomenon is long-standing and uniquely British in its most virulent form.
"In other countries redheads will get teased at school but it stops when they become adults. If you are a woman you are fiery and alluring, beautiful."
In adult life, women get stereotyped and red-haired men take much of the worst abuse. Treatment of red-haired children in school ranges from mild taunts to grim persecution.
Michele Eliot, the American director of British children's charity Kidscape, regularly has significant numbers of red-haired children in courses on coping with bullying.
"There is nothing like this in the US where having red hair is not a precursor to having someone abuse you. Red hair is considered glamorous."
Bullies at school and in later life may sense that ill-treatment of the red-haired will not be treated as seriously by the authorities as persecution of other groups.
"Bullies think that person is outside the norm, they will be able to attack them. The bullies find something to pick on. The bully has a problem and needs a victim," Ms Eliot says.
While there has been at least one report of a serious anti-red hair hate crime in the UK - a 20-year-old stabbed in the back in 2003 - it's unclear whose responsibility it is to monitor discrimination.
Conservative backbencher Patrick Mercer, when recently sacked for alleged racism, sought to get himself out of a hole by comparing treatment of black soldiers to those with red hair.
"That's the way it is in the Army. If someone is slow on the assault course, you'd get people shouting: 'Come on you fat bastard, come on you ginger bastard, come on you black bastard.'"
One of these three epithets would now be regarded as totally unacceptable, and possibly against the law. Even the first, mocking someone's weight, is under a sustained assault from feminists and those concerned about what society's treatment of weight issues does to vulnerable teenagers.
But the abuse can be far from innocuous.
"We talk about kicking racism out of sport but this is just as bad in its way," said Reading striker Dave Kitson in 2005. He can't have been delighted when the Daily Star reported his remarks under the headline "Kitson's a right ginger whinger". Or when players' association chief Gordon Taylor said: "It belittles racism to compare the two issues."
RED HAIR MYTHOLOGY
Redheads sacrificed in ancient Egypt
Associated with witches and vampires in Europe
Reputed to bleed more
Mary Magdalene, Adam, Judas and even Jesus depicted as redheads
Journalist Sharon Jaffa - also a red-head - says society must stop its ginger-baiting.
"Growing up as a redhead I was lucky enough to escape with just the occasional name-calling - having the surname Jaffa was no doubt a double-whammy. But attacking someone on the basis of their hair colour can be every bit as damaging as persecuting someone for their race or religion, and therefore, in some cases, needs to be taken just as seriously."
Red hair has great cultural resonance. Red is the colour of heat, danger and warnings. When applied to women, it is the colour of sensuousness, fiery temperament and emotional instability.
"Lilith [Adam's lover] was a redhead. It indicates red hair was bad. Shakespeare made all his most menacing characters wear red wigs. That seeps into culture," Ms Rushton says.
So when does this date from? Some claim it could be a throwback to anti-Irish sentiment from the 19th Century and before when the Irish, with a greater prevalence of red hair, were regarded as ethnically inferior.
Anecdotally at least, males get more abuse than females.
Patrick O'Sullivan, head of the Irish Diaspora Research Unit, says he has never come across a link. "People could feel forbidden to attack their usual victims and are searching around for ones that have not yet achieved the protection of the law."
Professor Larry Ray, a sociologist at the University of Kent and an expert on racial discrimination, says the perpetrators could be habitual bullies. "If they are engaging in one kind of harassment they are engaging in others. They are looking for targets."
For those who claim their workplace taunts are just harmless banter, it could be stress rather than an anthropological aversion to red hair.
Workplace psychologist Professor Cary Cooper, of Lancaster University, says abuse can be "an unhealthy release valve for stress" and redheads, as a visible minority not protected by law, have become a target.
While other forms of the discrimination are the subject of marches, lobbying and education campaigns, redheads cannot expect the arrival of the politically correct cavalry anytime soon.
Also: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6238332.stm
O_o
That's just fucked up.
lol
Recessive genes are equally as likely as dominant genes to get passed on, so assuming one doesn't confer an advantage over the other there's no reason for them to disappear.
damn gingers. Anyone see that South Park episode?
I don't have red hair but I've always admired it -- it's not always synonymous with attractiveness, but the most attractive girls I've ever seen were red heads.
And there is nothing wrong with pride in knowing your heritage. It's part of America. Eventually we'll all be mutts.
it frequently does not look good on male teenagers, or young adults. or the middle aged.
like painfully horribly bad, often.
and it kinda highlights any complexion issues.
I probably(very high) have a recessive red hair.