Microscopes

Davoid

So I'm picking up a microscope, and I'm wondering what I should be looking for.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/konus-microscopes-biorex-2-trinocular-head-5604.html I've been considering this one

Any suggestions you guys have?

Rook

What do you want to do with it would be the big question.

Davoid

Science hobbyist.

Rook

So, you probably want to make small things look bigger then?



I kinda mean, is there anything specific you'll want to be looking at it? Do you mean I want to dig things out of my garden and have a look at them, or I have my own lab and am growning anthrax.

Are you going to be looking at solid objects (rocks/crystal/animals etc) where light transmission isn't possible etc. Will you be wanting an oil emmersion lens for really high powered magnification, do you need binoc eyepieces. Are you interested in phase contrast or darkfield microscopy etc?

Davoid

Mostly studying bacterial culture growth, no bacillus anthracis involved. Not intending to look at anything where light transmission is impossible, unless I feel like looking at backlit shadows. Nothing too high powered, 1000X should be sufficient. Phase contrast would be nice, as I do like looking at cellular biology, but I don't mind staining slides. Dark Field would also be nice, but is also not a necessity for me.

Protozoa hunts would also be alot of fun. Wondering if that sucker would be capable of most basic observatory stuff.

BRAINS!

Rook has a good point,

There are many different types of microscopes for different purposes. I'm guessing since you are a hobbyist you aren't going to be doing tissue culture and H/E staining.

But, since you will probably want to be able to see basic bacteria you are going to at least want phase contrast. Also, to better see bacteria under the microscope go and order a Gram Stain kit - cheap from Fisher Scientific, Difco, Remel or VWR.

I know microscopes can be very expensive, but if you spring a bit more, you should look for one you can attach your digital camera to. the microscope will have a third optic right above the stage for this. Sometimes you can buy an additional optic that you can replace and put your camera on after you have acquired the image.

Here is an example of an example from the website you provided, but with their camera option...

http://www.opticsplanet.net/lomp1modbrig.html

Davoid

http://www.opticsplanet.net/konus-microscope-accessories.html

It looks like they have various adaptors for the one I'm looking at, would those suffice?

I'll look into the stain kit, thanks.

Naw, the only reason I just said "Science Hobbyist" was because last time I asked about bacterial cultures, I was jumped on and accused of making anthrax and other agents, although I appreciate the help. Sorry for misinterpreting his initial post.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/konus-digital-microscopes-camera-5829.html

BRAINS!

[QUOTE=Davoid;3776725It looks like they have various adaptors for the one I'm looking at, would those suffice?[/QUOTE]

It'd be nice if they actually had a pic of the accessory...

Your two options for the 5604 model are the Photo Adapter 5123 or the adapter with the photo eyepiece 5637.

BUT, we don't know if this for a SLR camera or a digital....

The 5829 looks good too... sorry, just saw the link. I guess it is your preference on cost?

NateVader

I bet you could get some nice bargains by emailing nearby high school/college bio departments or whatever and asking if they have any older microscopes they're looking to get rid of for cheap. You'd probably be able to get something that's a better quality for significantly cheaper than normal.

corcorigan

If I can ask... What sort of stuff do you want to culture? Seems like a fun and expensive way of managing to infect yourself with something that's really dangerous.

I'll concede it's rather interesting though. Fun times in labs.

Davoid

NateVader wrote: »

I bet you could get some nice bargains by emailing nearby high school/college bio departments or whatever and asking if they have any older microscopes they're looking to get rid of for cheap. You'd probably be able to get something that's a better quality for significantly cheaper than normal.

Unfortunatly, all we have up here is the high school, and they don't let anything like that occur. Taxpayer money and all.

If I can ask... What sort of stuff do you want to culture? Seems like a fun and expensive way of managing to infect yourself with something that's really dangerous.

The last topic I put up in here was how to go about proper bacterial culture maintanence and safety. Every dish is completely sealed, and it's common sense to wash thoroughly after handling them, so I think I'll be ok. Mostly it's just testing for bacterial presence on various objects.

What about this, guys? What sort of digital camera would you have to look for in this?

http://www.fyeo.com/contents/products/multrh4pol.html

Rook

I'd go for something with a stage that you could move with XY fine control adjustment rather than rotational, especially if you're looking at the 1000x end of magnification the last thing you want to be doing is trying to move a slide around by hand.

Davoid

That is a very good point. I have heard many great things about the Lomos, but a lack of XY fine control is a big problem for sure. I'm supposing it's only rotatable because it's a polarized display. That's really their only trinocular display for under a grand though. They had another one for around 700 bucks, but they discontinued it, and I can't find anyone who has any in stock.

http://www.fyeo.com/contents/products/multm.html this one. It would have been perfect.

I was also recommended to look into Nikon, Zeiss or Olympus. (and upon researching their stuff, way out of my range. Jesus.)

Just looking for a quality compound, really. Brightfield, trinocular.

Rotting Meat

The last topic I put up in here was how to go about proper bacterial culture maintanence and safety. Every dish is completely sealed, and it's common sense to wash thoroughly after handling them, so I think I'll be ok. Mostly it's just testing for bacterial presence on various objects.

You never provided a link to the other post, so I'll assume you received any information you needed, but just remember that safety IS a big concern. It's not like you're just playing with dirty soil once you start culturing... you're dealing with an extremely concentrated 'dirty' sample. If you're playing with fecal matter AT ALL, be very careful (and not limited to just fecal). Research what's likely to be in your samples ahead of time and know what to be prepared for. Yes, it is possible to culture anthrax from soil samples accidently.

I'm not sure how much knowledge you have in the field, so I appologize if I dumb things down or assume too much.

There are many ways to take bacterial samples and look for presence/absence and diversity. If you're just looking for qualatative analyses, a microscope can provide the basics. The big advantage of using a microscope is you can avoid culturing somewhat. If you're looking at aquatic samples you can toss water on a slide, throw it on the stage, and start finding things to look at. Soil you will have to culture from, and is additional time and money. The big problem with a microscope? Everything looks the same basically. Yes, it's a rod. Yes it's a cocci. But what they are is a mystery. Microscopes are no longer used for identification, and if that's your aim you will be dissapointed. But if you just like looking at tiny things and being in awe, microscopes are awesome.

Take a look at everything you will need to do culturing, the prices can add up quickly. You'll need media to grow things on (TSA, tryptic soy agar, is usually the way to go for general samples). If you want to do staining (recommended for visualizing most things) you'll probably need an oil burner for aseptic technique and the staining itself (in the case of gram staining among others). Microscope slides will obviously be required, and coverslips. Syringes for water samples, Protoslo (or gelatin) if you're looking at protozoa, etc. It all adds up a lot for someone starting out.

Identification can also be made at the plate level based on colony morphology, so find some books on that as well. Depending on how much you like reading and how much you want to spend, Bergey's Field Manual is the de facto guide for most things. Different media can also help in identification either as selective (only certain things will grow) or differential (different things will be different colors for example). This all adds up to a pretty big shopping list.

Someone mentioned a few supply sites previously (but for microscopes), so I'll reiterate them for media. Fisher Sigma VWR are the ones I have experience with. Fisher usually has the best prices, Sigma being the worst but with fast shipping. Media will be very expensive pre-plated, but ifyou don't need too much it will be the best way to go. If you plan on bulk culturing (which doesn't take very long to get to), you can consider making your own media. Not hard, but it requires an autoclave. You said you don't have a university nearby, but do you have any doctor friends or tattoo artist friends? Both those places would have autoclaves, and a cycle just takes 30 minutes. Just make sure you know what program to use, and make sure *you leave the lid off the bottle*.

I think in your most recent post you have it narrowed down properly to a brightfield microscope. Darkfield is extremely cool, but doesn't really help that much. And 1000x oil immersion I think will be adequate for you rather then going to phase (which is finicky, and easily broken by the students in my undergraduate classes). And if you are going 1000x power, you definitely need fine scale XY movement.

As for microscopes themselves, I don't really have any specific ones to recommend. I've heard talk of adapters for binocs that you can hook a camera into. It'll be a little more awkward, but might save you a
bit of money that way.

I really hope that none of this discourages you. I absolutely love microscopes and looking at samples and just watching the little guys scoot around. Start out basic, see where you want to go and get what you need when you need it. Just have fun with it!

Hope something in there helps.

*Edit:
I assume the other thread you were asking about culturing was the one you started. There was some great advice in there, make sure you listen to it, especially the proper disposal of plates. And if you do plan on any antibiotic use, be careful. If you add it, something will grow; it's very very easy to make antibiotic resistant strains. One final note: read up on everything you're looking at doing before you do it. You don't have the infrastructure to be careless (fumehoods, proper incubators, seperate fridges), so try and know what you're getting into. And to seal the plates, we use Parafilm, but cellophane would likely work fairly well short term.

Davoid

Thank you very much. Yes, I use primarily agar, I have slides, coverslips, syringes, plates, pretty much everything sans scope. I do have a copy of Bergey's manual and read through it every now and again (mostly for kicks). It is my primary concern to handle and dispose of these cultures safely, so I do follow the advice I was given in the last thread. I do need to learn how to use the oil immersion technique, and procure the proper stains, but I will be researching those things when it comes time to it.

As for scopes, I'm looking at this one: http://www.microscopestore.com/Model_S1100P_with_all_Plan_4x_10x_40x_and_100x_objectives_100059.html

Rotting Meat

That model has just about everything I would look for. Do you have an overly large or overly small distance between your eyes? The ocular lenses on that model do not pivet, they only slide apart. For most people this should be fine. The model looks to be a good price compared to others.

I'm hesistant to tell you what scope to purchase, as a lot of it depends on the quality of optics (basically just the quality of the specific brand and specific scope) and I have little experience in any of that. That scope might be awesome, but I don't want to be responsible telling you to buy it and you being dissapointed. I also don't know of any microscope review sites around (although there likely are some).

Perhaps you could try phoning a university in which you know they have a strong microbiology department, and asking to talk to the senior laboratory coordinator. They likely have purchasing power for the teaching labs (or would be able to direct you to who does) and would have a lot of experience with different brands and models and likely has one they commonly recommend.

Sorry I couldn't be more help directly.

Davoid

Yea, that's what I'm most worried about. It's why people were telling me to check out Zeiss and Nikon and that, because of guaranteed quality optics, yet they're way out of my price range. I've been talking to alot of my med and bio student friends, but no concrete ideas from them.

MegaMan001

If it's of any consequence, that exact scope you linked is the one we used in my Microbiology Lab at NIU.

EDIT: Though, if I knew those things were close to 1,000 dollars I would have treated mine a little better.

Davoid

Yea, that's one thing a prof I contacted told me, that buying from universities was risky because students tend to beat them up. How were they when you used them?

I do have a question regarding trinocular heads; Do any of the optics suffer for it? Will it have any detrimental effects on the binocular portion?

Davoid

So I'm looking at a Steindorff S1100 with Trinocular head, and I have one last question; Does a trinocular head have any different performance than a binocular? Like, are the binocular outputs just as good on both?