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D&D 4th Edition: 1 day until multiclassing Preview. (38)

DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic I've Done WorseRegistered User regular
edited April 2008 in Critical Failures
Current news implies that the GSL (that lets people publish stuff for 4th D&D) includes language that makes it mutually exclusive with the OGL (the thing that let people publish stuff for 3.x D&D). Possibly over the entire depth of a company. [Insert Nerd Rage]

Lastest bit: Mini-PHB PDF. Collected info from various leaks in one handy place!

A new, now less ugly book edition is nigh!

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Previous cover:
Spoiler:

This will be updated soon with more details (suggestions welcome) but for now:

Enworld, really the best place to find 4th edition information.

Wizards main site. A close 2nd.

Hell, otherwise known as the Wizards 4th edition board.

Latest news: OGL and SRD access will be restricted for the first 4 months to those willing to pony up 5 grand and sign some NDA's. Perhaps this will stem the tide of absolute crap in the opening months of 4th lifespan.

What's Changed?

A large amount. For a quick idea go buy Star Wars Saga edition.

Races:
Spoiler:

DevoutlyApathetic on
Trogg wrote: »
Not as positive as AIDS and cancer, but positive nonetheless.
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Posts

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Apparently, the DMG comes with a sample town, adventure hooks, and a starter dungeon.

    I intend to run that when the game first comes out to get the hang of running it.

    Later, I might whip up some kind of homebrew setting or races or whatever.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Yeah. I figure Core 3+ DMG adventure + first WotC adventure is the best way to learn the game while I start applying rules to my homebrew.

    Starting off with homebrew just begs for a migraine.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Nice, I just found a short but sweet distilled version of key chivalric code points, that will make a great reference point if I decide to make a truly knightly character. And with Cavalier as a prestige class (or whatever they are actually called in 4th edition) it's sounds like a good idea.

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  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Yeah. I figure Core 3+ DMG adventure + first WotC adventure is the best way to learn the game while I start applying rules to my homebrew.

    Starting off with homebrew just begs for a migraine.

    yeah

    how are you going to expect to balance a new race or class you create if you don't even know how the existing things gel with the rules

    also, apparently a starting adventure will be coming out for 4e before the core books come out, with pre-gen'd characters, so i might be interested in buying and running that to see how it works out.

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Nice, I just found a short but sweet distilled version of key chivalric code points, that will make a great reference point if I decide to make a truly knightly character. And with Cavalier as a prestige class (or whatever they are actually called in 4th edition) it's sounds like a good idea.

    Paragon Paths.

    They are different from Prestige Classes in one very significant aspect: You don't leave your class to enter them.

    You just tack them right onto your class, giving you more powers and customization options.

    same with epic destinies

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Yeppers. I'm grabbing as much as I can as soon as I can.

    I just wish Amazon shipped faster so I wouldn't be debating between paying full price and getting them later. :P

    But I've got some Borders cards to burn anyways, and a decent discount once a week there, so whatever.

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  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Kits and class varients have sort of backdoor snuck into 4e.

    By adding new powers in supplement books, they essentially change what a class can do

    by adding Class Training feats, you can make varient class concepts with very little changes.

  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Pony, that makes so much more sense that it's not even funny. Prestige classes really only made a lot of sense for things like Assassins, where you had to join a specific guild for specific training. Now it's much more of a "I'm a warrior with some extra focus towards mounted combat". It sounds like a much more natural evolution for a character.

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  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    basically it's like this

    Heroic Tier: I'm a fighter, a soldier in the armies of Furyondy
    Paragon Tier: I am a cavalier, an experienced veteran of the battlefield. My loyal mount and I have crossed the plains of the Shield Lands against the evil Empire of Iuz.
    Epic Tier: I am the Knight Commander of the Crown, royal champion of the King of Furyondy, in battle I am his honorable right hand, and my foes will tremble when they hear the hoofbeats of my mighty stead.

    basically a design principle of 4e is not only should your power level go up as you level up, so should your prestige and general bad-assedness

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Really what it does is eliminate the class default so you're only comparing PrCs to PrCs and not core classes. :P

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  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    This is something that some people will not like, others will, but might as well get it out of the way:

    Because the game goes up to 30th level now and epic-play is built in, the Gods are, by default, more approachable and even defeatable.

    When you are a 27th level epic shitkicker, it is possible for you and your party to take down gods. Even become gods, possibly.

    Obviously, this isn't appropriate for all settings. The gods of Eberron are distant, unapproachable, even possibly non-existant. The gods of Faerun, however, are often ascended mortals who got that way by killing the god who used to hold that position, so it definitely fits there.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Elminster will of course be level 42

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic I've Done Worse Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I can't remember if he survives or not. The 4e shift is killing a shit load of the powerful NPC's from the Realms.

    Trogg wrote: »
    Not as positive as AIDS and cancer, but positive nonetheless.
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    elminster might not even be alive in 4e

    FR's getting all reamed out to adjust it for 4e

    Eberron, ever the better setting, is just like "meh, we'll just make 4e fit Eberron"

    which means, at the very least, gnomes will see a 2009 comeback as a proper player race.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    FR's been funny over the years.

    Mystras have like no goddamn survival skill whatsoever.

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  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    some clarification about Points of Light:

    Points of Light exists essentially as a series of proper nouns and racial histories. It's deity names and place names, for the most part. For example, the ancient empire that fell due to infernal pacts was named Bael Turath. They were at war with the Dragonborn empire of Arkhosia. Eventually, both empires fell from their war, and now both races are scattered into smaller settlements.

    Stuff like that.

    There's no "world map" for the Points of Light setting, or even a name for the world. Only certain cities, nations, dungeons have names, and their geographic locations are left intentionally vague.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    PoL is basically the floating commonalities that kind of float between D&D settings. It's basically shorthand for modular setting pieces.

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  • CantideCantide Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    If my schedule allows, and it probably won't, I'd love to take part in the 4E test run. I'll try out the cleric, and see if it really has moved away from "heal-bot".

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  • VathrisVathris Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Hello, I too would like to toss my hat in for a character slot, I am new to D&D but I would be willing to play any unfilled role.

  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Cantide wrote: »
    If my schedule allows, and it probably won't, I'd love to take part in the 4E test run. I'll try out the cleric, and see if it really has moved away from "heal-bot".

    It has.

    Every class can now self-heal, so they aren't reliant on the cleric for healing

    What the cleric is is a "buff machine". They're a Leader class, so they've got buffs, and they can do stuff like enable their partymembers to have extra attacks and stuff.

  • ArdentArdent Pipe down Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Litejedi:

    I play with a group of players that, no matter what the intended objective of a campaign is, turns to evil and begins randomly slaughtering people that "get in their way."

    I blame this partly on the fact that they're military and partly on the TV programming they were brought up on. Obviously, bad parenting fits in somewhere. Because there's always room for fuck-up parents.

    4e isn't "edgier," it's simply removing complicating factors. Law vs Chaos? Outside of a demi-plane or home plane aligned with one of those two ideals, it never came up in normal gameplay. So why not remove it? It's not going to change how a character is role-played. My Cleric of Hoar isn't suddenly going to go "Hm, I think I'll randomly slaughter people because I have no obligation to lawfulness any more." He'll continue to slaughter people in the name of vengeance and inflict a poetic justice on those who have wronged someone in some way. Of course, he probably won't be the engine of destruction he was under 3e rules, but I can deal.

    Most of the people who dislike 4e are acting under some really, really stupid assumptions.

    Assumption #1: Wizards of the Coast isn't a business, it's a benevolent caretaker to my favorite hobby.
    Are you fucking retarded? Do you realize I own stock in Hasbro? If WotC isn't a business, they owe me some damn money.

    Assumption #2: Change doesn't happen (to me).
    Wake up, assmaster! Change happens all the time. Every time you find a really great exploit in a game, someone's going to let someone else know, and sooner or later that exploit will get closed down.

    Assumption #3: New clearly means worse.
    Okay, you know, I can't immediately berate you for thinking this. With WotC this was true for a long time, but it appears they're trying to make up for a series of monstrous mistakes by producing quality work that isn't immediately twistable into a munchkin's wet dream.

    Assumption #4: 3e is better.
    3e was a steaming pile of turd shat out by a circle-jerk full of retards who like to bury their heads up their asses. It was, quite possibly, the most successful triangle scheme (read: pyramid scheme for the depth perception-impaired) ever, but was by no means 'better' than anything else on the market. Except FATAL. Nobody can apologize enough for or explain FATAL. Stop poking that dead horse.

    I'm sure there are more assumptions, but these are the ones I see most often. Many hardcore 3e players are rocking themselves back and forth, knees clutched to chest bawling for the loss of their munchkin's paradise, but they had to realize that the gravy train was coming to an end. Mostly, they're in denial. Everyone else is inexplicably mentally handicapped.

    Steam ID: only1ardent / Origin ID: ArdentX
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    ardent you got some downright disagreeable opinions mister.

  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Can I likewise put down my name as being interested in your game Incen? I haven't played D&D much, mostly due to lack of anyone willing to play it with me, but I have nonetheless been getting some decent roleplaying experience over the years. I'll look over Races and Classes next time I'm at work and see what I'd be interested in playing, though my gut suggests a wizard.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Death Groupie Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Pony wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Pony: Races and Classes said slender tail and hidable demonic features, not tails bigger than your legs and horns bigger than your torso.

    Page 46, "Their small horns, their thin tails..."

    meh

    i prefer the art to the single line of text anyway

    Their tails are way to big for their body size.. Also they extend from the body at a really weird angle... How the hell do they lay down?

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  • HayasaHayasa Registered User
    edited January 2008
    Ardent wrote: »
    Most of the people who dislike 4e are acting under some really, really stupid assumptions.
    I'm in the Assumption #5 camp - the design of 4e is creatively bankrupt.

    So far I haven't seen one genuniely new idea, lots of stuff is being changed just for change's sake, and their rationale (you can read it for just $20) for dropping gnomes looks precisely like the sort of half-arsed excuse you'd hear in a presidential press conference.

    None of the new races or race revisions scream out at me that there is anything to be excited about there.

    The classes we know less about, so I'll be interested to see how they are applied.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    There is a lot to be said about taking other peoples new ideas and making it right. Not that Star Wars Saga Edition wasnt made by Wizards and nor was the Tome of Battle. Or DnD at all.

    Oh wait, these were their original ideas and being better than the current ideas, WOTC had the bright idea to combine them and make DnD better.

    Everything i have heard about 4e except dragonborn[and the online tools/program, but that is another issue] has made me happy as a roleplayer.

    Dropping Gnomes isnt a big deal. Im sure they will be harder to add than a race in 3.5, but still, its a single race that was likely dropped because no-one played them. At least, not often. More often you get stories of people playing things out of the MM than Gnomes. I never liked stuff out of the MM because it always seemed exotic for the sake of being exotic[I.E. people choosing it because it was exotic], but hey, i can just use a race from the PHB. And oh hey, now that its more easily cannonized its not really exotic for the sake of being exotic anymore!


    Hell, i bet we eventually get fleshed out info for Gnomes, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Gnolls, and Kolbolds. Ive grown to love these types of characters, but oh noes they arent in the PHB whatever will I do?!?!?!

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  • ravensmuseravensmuse Registered User
    edited January 2008
    Yeah, I'd love to see kobolds as a playable race in core. Won't happen, but hey. Supposedly Warforged will be in the MM1 along with gnomes, half-orcs, and drow, so from the outset we'll be able to play them at the beginning of 4th.

    Nice to be able to talk about 4th Edition without the monkey screeching you see on ENworld or RPG.net.

    READ MY BLOG - Web Serial Fantasy - Tabletop Gaming Snips & Reviews - Flea Market Hunting
  • PusciferPuscifer Registered User
    edited January 2008
    The fuck are they doing with the pantheon? On that WOTC forum, I'm seeing shit about several Gods being wiped out and Corellon will take over the magic portofolio? Also, they're pushing towards a pantheon of no race specific deities. I read the Grand History of the Realms when it came out so I know what happens to Helm and Mystra, but some of this stuff going on now seems like a push to really simplify the pantheon overall.

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  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Most of the people who dislike 4e are acting under some really, really stupid assumptions.
    I'm in the Assumption #5 camp - the design of 4e is creatively bankrupt.

    So far I haven't seen one genuniely new idea, lots of stuff is being changed just for change's sake, and their rationale (you can read it for just $20) for dropping gnomes looks precisely like the sort of half-arsed excuse you'd hear in a presidential press conference.

    None of the new races or race revisions scream out at me that there is anything to be excited about there.

    The classes we know less about, so I'll be interested to see how they are applied.

    Man fuck gnomes, the reasons given in races and classes for their removal from the phb are absolutely spot on. They aren't, and with the exception of dragonlance never have been, unique or necessary. Keeping them around just because they've been there since 1st or what the fuck ever is stupid.

    As for lot's of stuff being changed for change's sake, I disagree. From a purely rules perspective, they have yet to unveil a change that I thought wasn't better. Races being significantly more important? Check. All classes being given the tools to function in their "role," without diminishing the capacity of said classes to branch out into other areas? Check. Getting new things at every level? Check. Combat and skill systems all streamlined to make play faster? Check.

    I mean really, everyone has different opinions (I for one found the dragonborn fluff interesting and will now probably play a dragonborn paladin as my first character). But saying things are being changed just for the sake of change is just silly.
    Puscifer wrote: »
    The fuck are they doing with the pantheon? On that WOTC forum, I'm seeing shit about several Gods being wiped out and Corellon will take over the magic portofolio? Also, they're pushing towards a pantheon of no race specific deities. I read the Grand History of the Realms when it came out so I know what happens to Helm and Mystra, but some of this stuff going on now seems like a push to really simplify the pantheon overall.

    Yes, no race specific pantheons in the core setting. Corellon is now the god of magic instead of just being the Elf god (though he still made Elves). Same deal for Moradin who has become the god of industry. Other changes include Bahamut and Tiamat being the 2 halves of Io who was split by a primordial in the war between primordials and the Gods.

    As an aside, as much as I like the new Tiefling fluff, I am still generally bothered by them being a direct marketing ploy to appeal to middle class 13 year olds with abandonment issues and a hot topic gift card. They basically come out and say it straight out in races and classes. On the other hand, they are already about 3 times cooler than Drow ever were, so if the option to stop the silly pandering to those people was going to be ignored, at least the new guys are moderately better.

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  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    They should have dropped halflings instead of gnomes. I mean, I never use either, but I simply do not trust anyone who would play as a halfling. Plus, at least gnomes have a folklore basis, halflings are straight out of tolkien.

    Also, Ardent needs to chill. You play too much WoW, methinks.

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  • ravensmuseravensmuse Registered User
    edited January 2008
    I kind of wish they were Planescape tieflings, with matching DiTerlizzi art. But this new stuff is neat.

    Has anyone else watched the Tiefling and gnome video from the Wizards site? The new gnomes look kind of like Stitch from Lilo & Stitch and that's kind of neat. It's a funny video too.

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  • Paranoia833Paranoia833 Registered User
    edited January 2008
    I'm not going to put myself forward yet, I don't really frequent these forums regularly enough to be able to promise I'll be around when this game gets going, but I must admit the stuff they've released on the new class builds intrigues me. I'm still undecided on the trimming down of the wizard, but I can see the point that in 3.5 lategame they could do just about anything better than any other class if they had enough preperation. The warlock on the other hand seems really good. Like they've taken the best bits of the Binder the 3.5 sorcerer and the 3.5 warlock and crammed them into one kickass package. Plus who wouldn't want to make a pact with Cthulhu? (If that's what the 'star' pacts are.)

    Sure, 4e seems less Lord of the Rings and more pulpy. But really, who played D&D for the deep and compelling story/roleplay? (I mean sure it was possible, but there were many batter systems for that sort of thing out there)

  • PusciferPuscifer Registered User
    edited January 2008
    I'm not going to put myself forward yet, I don't really frequent these forums regularly enough to be able to promise I'll be around when this game gets going, but I must admit the stuff they've released on the new class builds intrigues me. I'm still undecided on the trimming down of the wizard, but I can see the point that in 3.5 lategame they could do just about anything better than any other class if they had enough preperation. The warlock on the other hand seems really good. Like they've taken the best bits of the Binder the 3.5 sorcerer and the 3.5 warlock and crammed them into one kickass package. Plus who wouldn't want to make a pact with Cthulhu? (If that's what the 'star' pacts are.)

    Sure, 4e seems less Lord of the Rings and more pulpy. But really, who played D&D for the deep and compelling story/roleplay? (I mean sure it was possible, but there were many batter systems for that sort of thing out there)

    A lot of people?

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  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Warforged, Shifters, Half-Orcs and Gnomes will probably appear in PHB2.

  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Warforged, Shifters, Half-Orcs and Gnomes will probably appear in PHB2.

    Gnomes might not be, they are showing up in the MM. Still, they might get a better fleshing out in phb2.

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  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Arkady wrote: »
    Warforged, Shifters, Half-Orcs and Gnomes will probably appear in PHB2.

    Gnomes might not be, they are showing up in the MM. Still, they might get a better fleshing out in phb2.

    They're getting quick "adapt for players" rules in the MM like a bunch of beasties, but a full-fledge, genericized fluffy article is destined for the PHB2.

    Which now that I think about it is exactly what you said...

    Anyway, D&D 3.5th didn't get my dollar and 4th probably won't unless I'm convinced they've really streamlined the system.

  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I haven't bought any DnD books in a really long time and I haven't really read into what 4E is going to be like, but I'm considering buying the new PHB when it comes out.

    3DS code: 3480-2527-9521
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  • piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    So much gnome hate, so much halfling hate. I was pretty meh on halflings, and then somewhere they changed, and I think it was an issue of Dragon magazine that made me fall in love with them. And gnomes? I liked playing gnomes too. I'm not really sure why.

  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I'm excited about the game too... but man, that cover sucks. My first thought was:

    When I was a kid in the 80's, there was all this bad press with D&D... there were some christian groups who were concerned with occult content being in the game, and they managed to scare the shit out of a lot of parents that it was going to make their kids lose their sense of reality.

    And twenty years later for 4th edition they go and put a dude who looks like the devil throwing lightning bolts out of his hands on the cover. Nice. Glad I'm not a lil dude asking my parents to buy it for me.

    Oh fuck me that means I've been playing DnD for almost 20 years. I hate myself a little bit now.

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  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Horseshoe wrote: »
    I'm excited about the game too... but man, that cover sucks.

    Thats because the artist is a hack.
    ravensmuse wrote: »
    I kind of wish they were Planescape tieflings, with matching DiTerlizzi art. But this new stuff is neat.

    What this guy said, except they should have gotten him to do the whole thing. Maybe Brom, too. I know as a fact both of them still do Magic illustrations.

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