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D&D 4th Edition: 1 day until multiclassing Preview. (38)

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Posts

  • ravensmuseravensmuse Registered User
    edited January 2008
    Yeah, I'd love to see kobolds as a playable race in core. Won't happen, but hey. Supposedly Warforged will be in the MM1 along with gnomes, half-orcs, and drow, so from the outset we'll be able to play them at the beginning of 4th.

    Nice to be able to talk about 4th Edition without the monkey screeching you see on ENworld or RPG.net.

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  • PusciferPuscifer Registered User
    edited January 2008
    The fuck are they doing with the pantheon? On that WOTC forum, I'm seeing shit about several Gods being wiped out and Corellon will take over the magic portofolio? Also, they're pushing towards a pantheon of no race specific deities. I read the Grand History of the Realms when it came out so I know what happens to Helm and Mystra, but some of this stuff going on now seems like a push to really simplify the pantheon overall.

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  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Most of the people who dislike 4e are acting under some really, really stupid assumptions.
    I'm in the Assumption #5 camp - the design of 4e is creatively bankrupt.

    So far I haven't seen one genuniely new idea, lots of stuff is being changed just for change's sake, and their rationale (you can read it for just $20) for dropping gnomes looks precisely like the sort of half-arsed excuse you'd hear in a presidential press conference.

    None of the new races or race revisions scream out at me that there is anything to be excited about there.

    The classes we know less about, so I'll be interested to see how they are applied.

    Man fuck gnomes, the reasons given in races and classes for their removal from the phb are absolutely spot on. They aren't, and with the exception of dragonlance never have been, unique or necessary. Keeping them around just because they've been there since 1st or what the fuck ever is stupid.

    As for lot's of stuff being changed for change's sake, I disagree. From a purely rules perspective, they have yet to unveil a change that I thought wasn't better. Races being significantly more important? Check. All classes being given the tools to function in their "role," without diminishing the capacity of said classes to branch out into other areas? Check. Getting new things at every level? Check. Combat and skill systems all streamlined to make play faster? Check.

    I mean really, everyone has different opinions (I for one found the dragonborn fluff interesting and will now probably play a dragonborn paladin as my first character). But saying things are being changed just for the sake of change is just silly.
    Puscifer wrote: »
    The fuck are they doing with the pantheon? On that WOTC forum, I'm seeing shit about several Gods being wiped out and Corellon will take over the magic portofolio? Also, they're pushing towards a pantheon of no race specific deities. I read the Grand History of the Realms when it came out so I know what happens to Helm and Mystra, but some of this stuff going on now seems like a push to really simplify the pantheon overall.

    Yes, no race specific pantheons in the core setting. Corellon is now the god of magic instead of just being the Elf god (though he still made Elves). Same deal for Moradin who has become the god of industry. Other changes include Bahamut and Tiamat being the 2 halves of Io who was split by a primordial in the war between primordials and the Gods.

    As an aside, as much as I like the new Tiefling fluff, I am still generally bothered by them being a direct marketing ploy to appeal to middle class 13 year olds with abandonment issues and a hot topic gift card. They basically come out and say it straight out in races and classes. On the other hand, they are already about 3 times cooler than Drow ever were, so if the option to stop the silly pandering to those people was going to be ignored, at least the new guys are moderately better.

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  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    They should have dropped halflings instead of gnomes. I mean, I never use either, but I simply do not trust anyone who would play as a halfling. Plus, at least gnomes have a folklore basis, halflings are straight out of tolkien.

    Also, Ardent needs to chill. You play too much WoW, methinks.

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  • ravensmuseravensmuse Registered User
    edited January 2008
    I kind of wish they were Planescape tieflings, with matching DiTerlizzi art. But this new stuff is neat.

    Has anyone else watched the Tiefling and gnome video from the Wizards site? The new gnomes look kind of like Stitch from Lilo & Stitch and that's kind of neat. It's a funny video too.

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  • Paranoia833Paranoia833 Registered User
    edited January 2008
    I'm not going to put myself forward yet, I don't really frequent these forums regularly enough to be able to promise I'll be around when this game gets going, but I must admit the stuff they've released on the new class builds intrigues me. I'm still undecided on the trimming down of the wizard, but I can see the point that in 3.5 lategame they could do just about anything better than any other class if they had enough preperation. The warlock on the other hand seems really good. Like they've taken the best bits of the Binder the 3.5 sorcerer and the 3.5 warlock and crammed them into one kickass package. Plus who wouldn't want to make a pact with Cthulhu? (If that's what the 'star' pacts are.)

    Sure, 4e seems less Lord of the Rings and more pulpy. But really, who played D&D for the deep and compelling story/roleplay? (I mean sure it was possible, but there were many batter systems for that sort of thing out there)

  • PusciferPuscifer Registered User
    edited January 2008
    I'm not going to put myself forward yet, I don't really frequent these forums regularly enough to be able to promise I'll be around when this game gets going, but I must admit the stuff they've released on the new class builds intrigues me. I'm still undecided on the trimming down of the wizard, but I can see the point that in 3.5 lategame they could do just about anything better than any other class if they had enough preperation. The warlock on the other hand seems really good. Like they've taken the best bits of the Binder the 3.5 sorcerer and the 3.5 warlock and crammed them into one kickass package. Plus who wouldn't want to make a pact with Cthulhu? (If that's what the 'star' pacts are.)

    Sure, 4e seems less Lord of the Rings and more pulpy. But really, who played D&D for the deep and compelling story/roleplay? (I mean sure it was possible, but there were many batter systems for that sort of thing out there)

    A lot of people?

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  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Warforged, Shifters, Half-Orcs and Gnomes will probably appear in PHB2.

  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Warforged, Shifters, Half-Orcs and Gnomes will probably appear in PHB2.

    Gnomes might not be, they are showing up in the MM. Still, they might get a better fleshing out in phb2.

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  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Arkady wrote: »
    Warforged, Shifters, Half-Orcs and Gnomes will probably appear in PHB2.

    Gnomes might not be, they are showing up in the MM. Still, they might get a better fleshing out in phb2.

    They're getting quick "adapt for players" rules in the MM like a bunch of beasties, but a full-fledge, genericized fluffy article is destined for the PHB2.

    Which now that I think about it is exactly what you said...

    Anyway, D&D 3.5th didn't get my dollar and 4th probably won't unless I'm convinced they've really streamlined the system.

  • PeewiPeewi Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I haven't bought any DnD books in a really long time and I haven't really read into what 4E is going to be like, but I'm considering buying the new PHB when it comes out.

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  • piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    So much gnome hate, so much halfling hate. I was pretty meh on halflings, and then somewhere they changed, and I think it was an issue of Dragon magazine that made me fall in love with them. And gnomes? I liked playing gnomes too. I'm not really sure why.

  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I'm excited about the game too... but man, that cover sucks. My first thought was:

    When I was a kid in the 80's, there was all this bad press with D&D... there were some christian groups who were concerned with occult content being in the game, and they managed to scare the shit out of a lot of parents that it was going to make their kids lose their sense of reality.

    And twenty years later for 4th edition they go and put a dude who looks like the devil throwing lightning bolts out of his hands on the cover. Nice. Glad I'm not a lil dude asking my parents to buy it for me.

    Oh fuck me that means I've been playing DnD for almost 20 years. I hate myself a little bit now.

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  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Horseshoe wrote: »
    I'm excited about the game too... but man, that cover sucks.

    Thats because the artist is a hack.
    ravensmuse wrote: »
    I kind of wish they were Planescape tieflings, with matching DiTerlizzi art. But this new stuff is neat.

    What this guy said, except they should have gotten him to do the whole thing. Maybe Brom, too. I know as a fact both of them still do Magic illustrations.

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  • PusciferPuscifer Registered User
    edited January 2008
    I really like this from Rich Baker:
    This week I’m starting on the next 4th Edition adventure. This one is a paragon-level adventure featuring trolls and a whole assortment of allied monsters. When we say paragon-level, we’re referring to the paragon tier of character advancement—that is, 11th to 20th level. I’m on the first of those, so you’re right at 10th or 11th to start. We have an idea that each tier of the game should feel a little different. When you’re in the heroic tier you might have NPCs asking you to prove yourself, and you’re likely dealing with “small” stories—save a village, rescue someone, and so on. When you get to paragon level, you’re becoming important. You might even be a little famous; people have heard of you, and you’re dealing with bigger stories like saving big cities or small kingdoms, jaunting briefly into other planes, dealing with evil relics, and so on. What all this means is that I looked at the adventure start scenario for my new adventure, and realized that I wasn’t entirely happy with an adventure you just happened across. I wanted to make it something that felt just a little more like you’re the pros who have been called in to help, because you’ve got the reputation. We’ll see how it goes.

    That's really cool. I love the concept of paragon levels where you really get to define your character. I hope they incorporate alot of this stuff into any related computer games.

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Like I said before, I've never seen anyone use a gnome as anything other than an excuse to act like a fucknut and still be "in character".

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Like I said before, I've never seen anyone use a gnome as anything other than an excuse to act like a fucknut and still be "in character".

    Eh? Well, then again, the only times we had people playing gnomes in my party was in an Eberron campaign, where gnomes are awesome as hell, so we saw so fucknut behavior.

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  • TrenogTrenog Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    For me I've played a Gnome monk that had lived with elves for many years and joined a party of adventurers that were protecting a woman of importance. He was a very serious character.

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  • DortmunderDortmunder Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I've been reading through these 4th ed threads and finally decided to chime in just because I've got D&D on the brain. Let me throw my hat into the "shill" corner with pony. I am fucking excited about the changes to races and classes.

    I think my first character will be a Human Fighter, just to see how it's changed.

    Gnomes: Meh. I never played em, and only knew one guy who tried them once. I'm not going to miss them enough that I can't wait for PHB2.

    Tieflings & Dragonborn: Tieflings I'm not too crazy about - though I too miss the old Planescape theme & art. I hate the cover of the new PHB. Dragonborn might be interesting. I'll have to read up on their fluff in May.

    Half-Orcs: Kinda like gnomes, but less apathy. Only because of Dranko Blackhope in Ken Levine's Story Hour.

    Bards: One of my favorite classes to play. Hopefully they'll be back and distinct from Warlords.

    Level Tiers, Racial advancements: Fuck yes.

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  • Cilla BlackCilla Black Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I like the new cover. It is fuckloads better than the 3rd edition cover, which was a big bundle of boring. It also reminds me a bit of the old AD&D covers.

  • TrenogTrenog Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    And another thing, if Gnomes can look this good (fan made version but still) I think they can be serious characters.
    http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/imagehosting/449476b0c35f26e1.jpg

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Is...

    Is that fanart of the gnome in the flash cartoon?

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  • TrenogTrenog Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Is...

    Is that fanart of the gnome in the flash cartoon?

    Yes, yes it is. Original source:

    http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968158&page=2&highlight=gnome+tiefling

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I think gnomes sucked in 3.5 because they had anything cool pretty much designed out of them. The only thing they were even mildly good at was being an illusionist or bard, which pretty much automatically relegated them to a support role. I think they could be made cool, but I'm not sure whether or not they will be.

    Also, how do the people at ENworld or RPG.net talk about 4th Edition?

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    So far, from what I've read on ENWorld they're just reporting the facts, ma'am.

    I guess it's just as well that bards are gone, because everyone made fun of me for playing one. Even though I usually killed more monsters than anyone else except the fighter. Pfft.

    “Hic non defectus est, sed cattus minxit desuper nocte quadam. Confundatur pessimus cattus qui minxit super librum istum in nocte Daventrie, et consimiliter omnes alii propter illum. Et cavendum valde ne permittantur libri aperti per noctem ubi cattie venire possunt.”
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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    @Incenjucar: If you're still letting people sign up for your 4e Core only game then consider me signed up, but I might have missed a few semesters of DnD 101, so I have no idea what class I want to be.

    @everyone else: Can we please please separate out our opinions on the mechanics of the game from our opinions of the new core setting? Just because you think one sucks doesn't mean the other one has to, or even that you have to think it does in order to be "cool."

    ...because dragons are AWESOME! That's why.
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  • MarshmallowMarshmallow Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Hey Incenj, I too would be up for an online game come 4th, I'd like to see how their online features will come together and if Pony's right about humans having race specific warlock goodies I would love to try that out.

    I'd probably go warlock regardless of race, I wanna see how strikers will work and this is as good a chance as any.

  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Can I say that having read a bit more, I appreciate that they are assuming constant passive Search instead of making the player/DM sit there and roll Search checks over and over and over...

    Because that always drove me up the goddamn wall. Of course we're searching, we're in a dungeon!

    “Hic non defectus est, sed cattus minxit desuper nocte quadam. Confundatur pessimus cattus qui minxit super librum istum in nocte Daventrie, et consimiliter omnes alii propter illum. Et cavendum valde ne permittantur libri aperti per noctem ubi cattie venire possunt.”
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Okay, I've updated my roster list with those I've seen raise hands... looks like two absolutely full campaigns provided every single person's schedule works out, and I know there's a few other people on the boards interested who I've missed.

    Hopefully this will encourage some other dDMs (that's right, I'm coining an acronymed form of digital Dungeon Masters, just you try and stop me) to pop up. Gotta spread the love a bit.

    If anyone else wants to get thrown up on the front page as a DM, shoot me a PM or somesuch and I'll slide your data into my post; I don't mind helping to organize things a bit.

    If enough PAers fall head over heels for 4E (oh please 4E prove worthy of our love), it would be interesting having a combined site or something for it beyond the smattering of threads.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    When I think about it, changing the high elf name to Eldarin makes a lot of sense. I mean, a race named High Elves doesn't really make a lot of sense. It feels more like a word humans would have come up with when first meeting elves and finding the need to differentiate between them.

    "Who were we going to negotiate with again? The elves from the woods or the elves who think they are above everyone else?"
    "The latter, the elves that think they are so high and mighty."
    "Stupid high elves"

    I just can't see the more noble human bloodlines or something going around calling themselves High Humans.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    From now on, a high elf will just be an excuse for their laziness. And the munchies.

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  • INeedNoSaltINeedNoSalt Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    I'd probably run a 4e game or play in one.

    But I'm not crazy enough to say so months in advance.

    sometimes you just gotta do a thing
  • DortmunderDortmunder Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Some stuff from the Enworld thread on Worlds & Monsters
    Some more details:

    The Temple of Elemental Evil is mentioned as a Location of Note. This section is said to contain 'future adventuring locales'...

    Dragons:

    Bunches of stuff here, the highlights include:

    The different colors of Dragon have different monster roles - in other words, some are artillery (blue), some are brutes (white), some are soldiers (red) and so on

    Dragons are solo monsters who 'get to do more on their turn than most monsters do' and also 'get to do a lot when it's not their turn' (like the tail slap we already knew about, but also mentioned is the green dragon's ability to poison you if you get too close)

    Dragons have fewer abilities, focused on the most iconic ones (continuing the theme). For example, the oldest black dragon is said to have only five possible standard actions, with unique magical abilities taking the place of spells simply taken from the wizard's lists.

    Dragons aren't forced into specific 'alignments'. Their motives can vary from a baseline - chromatic are wild, metallic like to be in control but good and evil manifests in each.

    There are two new flavours of metallic dragon which displace bronze and brass from the core group. The new metallics are Iron and Adamantine.

    Chromatic dragons grow in raw elemental power as they age which manifests as unique new powers related to the appropriate element. An ancient red's breath weapon, for example, can 'scour the fire resistance right off you'

    An all new look and set of powers for the green dragon; they are back to breathing poison!

    Giants:

    There are Huge versions of the standard giants called Titans - these are more closely tied to the elements and have greater power

    Giants in general are more elemental in nature, and there is greater variety between the standard types

    The Giant type is specifically for Giants. Trolls, ogres, ettins don't 'necessarily' have the Giant 'type'


    Underdark:

    Now considered easier to get to

    Mentioned are Drow, Troglodytes, Mind Flayers, Kuo-Toas (aboleth servant/worshippers), aboleths, myconids

    Vault of the Drow is mentioned as an Underdark Location of Note


    Feywild:

    Mentioned inhabitants include hags, yeth hounds, centaurs, eladrins, treants, fomorians, unicorns, elves, firbolgs, the Wild Hunt, red caps, quicklings, will-o'wisps, dark ones, pixies

    There is a fey reflection of the underdark, ruled over by fomorians

    The Isle of Dread is mentioned as a Location of Note

    Gnomes are a possible fey-dwelling race

    Pixies, well, don't want to ruin the surprise


    Shadowfell:

    Merges Negative Energy Plane and Plane of Shadow, removing the irritating bits that make these places a pain to visit

    Shadow is a power source. Involved with stealth, illusion, dread, 'devastating enemies' and 'necrotic energy'

    They've re-concepted the undead, adding the animus, providing 'vitality and mobility', as a companion to the soul and the body.

    Very interesting descriptions of how different varieties of undead are now explained. Shadow are the animus freed of body and soul, for example.

    Lots of details about how the new cosmology explains resurrection and reincarnation

    Shadowfell is inhabited by ... the Shadar-kai.

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    When I think about it, changing the high elf name to Eldarin makes a lot of sense. I mean, a race named High Elves doesn't really make a lot of sense. It feels more like a word humans would have come up with when first meeting elves and finding the need to differentiate between them.

    "Who were we going to negotiate with again? The elves from the woods or the elves who think they are above everyone else?"
    "The latter, the elves that think they are so high and mighty."
    "Stupid high elves"

    I just can't see the more noble human bloodlines or something going around calling themselves High Humans.
    Actually, I believe one of the terms for the Numenor in LOTR was "High Men"

    And, I'm thinking they may need a more exotic name than "elves" if they're going to work like this.

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  • LitejediLitejedi New York CityRegistered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Ardent:

    If I am making assumptions about the new edition, then you are very clearly making a LOT of assumptions about me. Which is interesting since I have never spoken to you before, on the forums, or in real life and as a result of this you haven't the slightest idea where my motivations lie, or even what my opinions are. I have stated on a number of occasions that I think the mechanical changes seem quite good for RPGing in general.

    The problem is, I don't care for the core setting, I don't care for Living Forgotten Realms, and I don't care for the general feel of edgier, darker things that the new setting SEEMS to aspire to. I don't care for what I see as arbitrarily getting rid of or adding things, and it seems that while the people who are designing the new edition of the game are quite good at game mechanics, they are EXTRAORDINARILY uninspired at doing world design, and have little-to-no respect for things that exist in the game that people like. Just because something is a sacred cow, does not automatically mean it is bad. I don't care for the idea that they're pandering to a particular group of people, or even pandering to anyone, and that's all I see 4th edition as being, a way to pander to a) anime fans b) goths c) emo kids d) powergamers. At least, from a "fluff" perspective. Not that any of this crap will matter, because I will buy the book and play in a non-core setting, that being said, I DO NOT LIKE THE CORE SETTING. IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WILL SUCK BALLS.

    That's all I'm saying.

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  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
  • delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    ravensmuse wrote: »
    I kind of wish they were Planescape tieflings, with matching DiTerlizzi art.

    Man, that curvy tiefling with checkered pants in the Planescape Monster Compendium was HAWT.

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  • SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    So yeah... I think I'll buy the Player's Handbook when it arrives and give this a go. I was ready to mark myself down as being completely off D&D but enough of the stuff I've heard has drawn me back to warrant a purchase, I think.

    The strange thing is that the stuff I'm excited about is somewhat closely related to the stuff I didn't like in 3e. I've never been a huge fan of combat-heavy RPGs, always wanting to play very story-based games of D&D. Some of these new additions and refinements have me excited about creating characters that are fun to use in combat and fighting really interesting encouners using miniatures and everything. This feels strange but it's something I'm looking forward to trying out. Definitely feels like a game with a tighter focus and that's something I can get on board with.

    Oh, and setting.

    I don't expect much in the way of setting from a set of D&D Core books, so this "points of light" thing is actually kind of cool to me. I'd rather they willingly go ahead and stick in a few modular setting pieces that can be taken or left than try and pass off a collection of half-baked ideas as a full setting. The whole "monsters are everywhere" thing feels somewhat suitable for the tighter focus on combat too. Let the full settings have their own book. If I like the way 4e plays I may actually get around to playing in Eberron. Always liked the setting but not 3e.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    When I think about it, changing the high elf name to Eldarin makes a lot of sense. I mean, a race named High Elves doesn't really make a lot of sense. It feels more like a word humans would have come up with when first meeting elves and finding the need to differentiate between them.

    "Who were we going to negotiate with again? The elves from the woods or the elves who think they are above everyone else?"
    "The latter, the elves that think they are so high and mighty."
    "Stupid high elves"

    I just can't see the more noble human bloodlines or something going around calling themselves High Humans.
    I think the better question is "the stuck-up gay elves that live in towers, or the stuck-up gay elves that live in trees?"

  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited January 2008
    The only time I've ever been impressed with any sort of elf in fiction was Tolkien's Noldor. Superhuman warriors with superhuman pride that destroyed them. And I should add, I disliked his other elves, which are the ones D&D adapted for its settings.

    I really don't like elves. I'd actually rather a party of gnomes.

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This discussion has been closed.