A good number of people in this thread are taking what is, to me, a bizarre approach to this question. The real question we should be asking here is "If not this, what should the Israeli government be doing?" They've tried just about everything. They've negotiated, they've blockaded, they've occupied, they've put troops in, they've taken troops out and the bombings and rocket attacks continue, unabated. What would you do in their position.
As an American, I feel particularly ill-suited to the role of criticizing Israel, since my government is doing a lot of the same things in response to our own little bout with terrorism. I don't support it, but I understand the fear that causes it.
I'd try to negotiate a permanent peace deal that wasn't a fucking joke done as photo OP or legacy saving for a failing presidency. I wouldn't trust either Israel or the Palestinians to do what they need to do without serious pushing.
They've tried, on numerous occasions. Most notably, the 2000 Camp David Summit which arguably cost Ehud Barak his ministry. At that summit, the Israelis offered 91% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority as a separate, sovereign state. In exchange, the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to first crack down on their terrorists. That was all they asked.
A good number of people in this thread are taking what is, to me, a bizarre approach to this question. The real question we should be asking here is "If not this, what should the Israeli government be doing?" They've tried just about everything. They've negotiated, they've blockaded, they've occupied, they've put troops in, they've taken troops out and the bombings and rocket attacks continue, unabated. What would you do in their position.
As an American, I feel particularly ill-suited to the role of criticizing Israel, since my government is doing a lot of the same things in response to our own little bout with terrorism. I don't support it, but I understand the fear that causes it.
I'd try to negotiate a permanent peace deal that wasn't a fucking joke done as photo OP or legacy saving for a failing presidency. I wouldn't trust either Israel or the Palestinians to do what they need to do without serious pushing.
They've tried, on numerous occasions. Most notably, the 2000 Camp David Summit which arguably cost Ehud Barak his ministry. At that summit, the Israelis offered 91% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority as a separate, sovereign state. In exchange, the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to first crack down on their terrorists. That was all they asked.
Arafat turned them down flat.
It was a lot more complicated than that, but if that's really true then starvation then seems like a good option.
That's crap. You could say the same thing of the Palestinians, with more justification, seeing as they've suffered worse losses.
Not really; unlike most of the Israelies, the Palestinians cannot afford to uproot themselves and move somewhere else. Those that tried live in refugee camps in neighboring Arab states ... not very pleasant.
But fine. I'll rephrase the question. If you're the Israeli government (so that precludes such nonsense as picking up stakes and leaving the Middle East entirely, doing nothing to try and stop attacks against your citizens, etc.) what would you do to fix this?
I have no idea.
I might just do NOTHING.
Neutral jin. Nonviolent resistance on a national scale. Keep the military around in case anyone actually tries to invade with an army. But treat rocket and terrorist attacks like unfortunate weather events that come with the territory of living in a state surrounded by crazy religious fanatics.
At the same time, grant Palestinians citizenship rights and allow them to travel freely in Israel, so the people launching rockets and suicide bombs will have to deal with the possibility of killing their own.
This would probably vastly decrease the property values in Israel and make a shit-ton of Jews leave. Oh well. They should ask themselves what the hell they are doing there in the first place, and if their answer involves an ages-old agreement with an imaginary Mesopotamian deity, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for them.
I can and do criticize my own government for anti-terrorist policies that are ineffective and make the problem worse. But I would kind of feel like an idiot condemning Israel for doing stuff my own country does. I ought to first at least fix the problem in my own backyard, shouldn't I?
Eh. I don't think there's any preconditions for criticizing anyone, just as long as you're not being a hypocrite about it.
A good number of people in this thread are taking what is, to me, a bizarre approach to this question. The real question we should be asking here is "If not this, what should the Israeli government be doing?" They've tried just about everything. They've negotiated, they've blockaded, they've occupied, they've put troops in, they've taken troops out and the bombings and rocket attacks continue, unabated. What would you do in their position.
As an American, I feel particularly ill-suited to the role of criticizing Israel, since my government is doing a lot of the same things in response to our own little bout with terrorism. I don't support it, but I understand the fear that causes it.
What needs to happen is Israel needs to work with the international community on policing this. Because the Palestinian government isn't going to stop this and at the very least Syria wants this to continue. If the US responded to a terrorist attack in the US with troops IN the US, it probably wouldn't go over well, so there needs to be a non-military group policing Palestine that is international.
For any solution ever, though, Israel needs allies in the general populace of Palestine. So they need to make overt and clear moves towards helping the people form a stable nation where the basics are covered. If people don't feel desperate they are much less likely to do desperate things. Like I said, the militants wouldn't last long if the civilian population wouldn't support them.
This is a real answer. Although I'm not entirely convinced it would succeed, it's at least a plan to solve the problem, unlike, say "Obey the Geneva Convention" or "Get out of Israel".
The problem as I see it is that most of the other states in the region, notably Syria, Jordan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, all have a vested interest in keeping this conflict going. As long as the Israelis have this Palestinian problem, they can use it to divert attention from their own human rights abuses, which suits them quite nicely.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
The "problem" with the Palestinians is that the Israelis are occupying their fucking land! Why won't those inconsiderate bastards just roll over and let Israel oppress their people?
This would probably vastly decrease the property values in Israel and make a shit-ton of Jews leave. Oh well. They should ask themselves what the hell they are doing there in the first place, and if their answer involves an ages-old agreement with an imaginary Mesopotamian deity, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for them.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
Perhaps it's time for Jews to realize that "the Holocaust" is just as stupid of a reason to form a country in the middle of Muslim-occupied land as "property deal with ancient Mesopotamian deity."
The "problem" with the Palestinians is that the Israelis are occupying their fucking land! Why won't those inconsiderate bastards just roll over and let Israel oppress their people?
How does your claim to ownership work? Is it originalism? The Israelis might have a claim in that case - they lived in that region thousands of years ago. Is it possession? The Israelis have the land now, and have had it for the past sixty years. Only the oldest generation of surviving Palestinians actually lived on the land their children and grandchildren are laying claim to. Wouldn't kicking out Israelis who have lived in Israel for sixty years (or longer!) be just as much of an injustice as kicking out the Palestinians who were there before?
In any case, Israel is a reality and it is here to stay. Solutions which call for Israel and its citizens to magically disappear are just as unrealistic as those which call for Palestinian refugees to magically disappear.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
Perhaps it's time for Jews to realize that "the Holocaust" is just as stupid of a reason to form a country in the middle of Muslim-occupied land as "property deal with ancient Mesopotamian deity."
How's about 'this is where I was born. It is my homeland. I'm not letting some terrorists force me out.'?
A good number of people in this thread are taking what is, to me, a bizarre approach to this question. The real question we should be asking here is "If not this, what should the Israeli government be doing?" They've tried just about everything. They've negotiated, they've blockaded, they've occupied, they've put troops in, they've taken troops out and the bombings and rocket attacks continue, unabated. What would you do in their position.
As an American, I feel particularly ill-suited to the role of criticizing Israel, since my government is doing a lot of the same things in response to our own little bout with terrorism. I don't support it, but I understand the fear that causes it.
I'd try to negotiate a permanent peace deal that wasn't a fucking joke done as photo OP or legacy saving for a failing presidency. I wouldn't trust either Israel or the Palestinians to do what they need to do without serious pushing.
They've tried, on numerous occasions. Most notably, the 2000 Camp David Summit which arguably cost Ehud Barak his ministry. At that summit, the Israelis offered 91% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority as a separate, sovereign state. In exchange, the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to first crack down on their terrorists. That was all they asked.
Arafat turned them down flat.
I'll make a wild guess and say those 91% didn't include Jerusalem.
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
nosnibor on
When you're a spy, it's a good idea to give away your trade secrets in a voiceover on a TV show.
A good number of people in this thread are taking what is, to me, a bizarre approach to this question. The real question we should be asking here is "If not this, what should the Israeli government be doing?" They've tried just about everything. They've negotiated, they've blockaded, they've occupied, they've put troops in, they've taken troops out and the bombings and rocket attacks continue, unabated. What would you do in their position.
As an American, I feel particularly ill-suited to the role of criticizing Israel, since my government is doing a lot of the same things in response to our own little bout with terrorism. I don't support it, but I understand the fear that causes it.
I'd try to negotiate a permanent peace deal that wasn't a fucking joke done as photo OP or legacy saving for a failing presidency. I wouldn't trust either Israel or the Palestinians to do what they need to do without serious pushing.
They've tried, on numerous occasions. Most notably, the 2000 Camp David Summit which arguably cost Ehud Barak his ministry. At that summit, the Israelis offered 91% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority as a separate, sovereign state. In exchange, the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to first crack down on their terrorists. That was all they asked.
Arafat turned them down flat.
I'll make a wild guess and say those 91% didn't include Jerusalem.
What I can find about the deal online isn't clear, although it appears that Palestinians would have, at the least, had some control over Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem. The Palestinian offer on Jerusalem involved a split city - half under Palestinian sovereignty, half under "Israeli authority but not sovereignty".
How's about 'this is where I was born. It is my homeland. I'm not letting some terrorists force me out.'?
That's starting to get pretty common, I think.
That is a much better reason than the two I brought up. I wouldn't criticize someone for staying in Israel for that reason. On the other hand, I sure wouldn't stay in Israel for that reason.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
Perhaps it's time for Jews to realize that "the Holocaust" is just as stupid of a reason to form a country in the middle of Muslim-occupied land as "property deal with ancient Mesopotamian deity."
How's about 'this is where I was born. It is my homeland. I'm not letting some terrorists force me out.'?
That's starting to get pretty common, I think.
That line of logic could be used by Palestinian civilians displaced in 1948 and 1967 as well as Israelis.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
Perhaps it's time for Jews to realize that "the Holocaust" is just as stupid of a reason to form a country in the middle of Muslim-occupied land as "property deal with ancient Mesopotamian deity."
How's about 'this is where I was born. It is my homeland. I'm not letting some terrorists force me out.'?
That's starting to get pretty common, I think.
That line of logic is used by Palestinian civilians displaced in 1948 and 1967 as well as Israelis.
fixed that for you. (edit: Technically they tend to just say jew, because culturally it carries a lot of the same weight as terrorist. The ones from 1948 would have a pretty valid point about terrorism though).
Do you have a point?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
I could while away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head, I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain.
I assume that there are a bunch of very good reasons why completely annexing all of the occupied territory and giving full Israeli citizenship to everyone wouldn't work, right?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I assume that there are a bunch of very good reasons why completely annexing all of the occupied territory and giving full Israeli citizenship to everyone wouldn't work, right?
I assume that there are a bunch of very good reasons why completely annexing all of the occupied territory and giving full Israeli citizenship to everyone wouldn't work, right?
That would give non-Jews substantial political power which is antithetical to the point of Israel.
It would allow Jewish people to stay in power, and the Arabs do not want to be under Jewish rule.
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
A good reason to form a government ... in the middle of a desert currently occupied by hostile cultists who believe the land is magic?
The Jews who moved to America and integrated with American society seem to be doing much better than the Jews who moved to Israel.
Frankly, I think the rational Jewish response to the Holocaust is "maybe I should stop believing in my stupid religion." It's really a shame that so many Jews have taken the opposite approach and clung even more stubbornly to their irrelevant faith, just to spite Hitler posthumously or something.
(I have a feeling this post is going to make this thread take a turn for the worse.)
I assume that there are a bunch of very good reasons why completely annexing all of the occupied territory and giving full Israeli citizenship to everyone wouldn't work, right?
Yes. The first being that neither the Israelis (who are concerned with maintaining a majority-Jewish state) nor the Palestinians (who abhor the idea of becoming part of the Zionist oppressor nation) want that.
Yeah, I'm sure Israel was just waiting to start another blockade.
Y'know, maybe if the militants would- I dunno, shot in the dark here- STOP FIRING ROCKETS AT ISRAEL, then there'd probably be no reason for them to retaliate. I mean, come on. Things were looking up, weren't they? Sure, Israel's tactics here are hamfisted, but it wouldn't be happening if someone weren't pissing in their Cheerios and ruining it for the whole fucking log.
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
I could while away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head, I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain.
Are you saying I'm stupid? Because there's nothing in what I said that would suggest that, and I don't appreciate being personally attacked just because we may not agree on the issue.
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When you're a spy, it's a good idea to give away your trade secrets in a voiceover on a TV show.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
I could while away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head, I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain.
Are you saying I'm stupid? Because there's nothing in what I said that would suggest that, and I don't appreciate being personally attacked just because we may not agree on the issue.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
Perhaps it's time for Jews to realize that "the Holocaust" is just as stupid of a reason to form a country in the middle of Muslim-occupied land as "property deal with ancient Mesopotamian deity."
How's about 'this is where I was born. It is my homeland. I'm not letting some terrorists force me out.'?
That's starting to get pretty common, I think.
That line of logic is used by Palestinian civilians displaced in 1948 and 1967 as well as Israelis.
fixed that for you.
Do you have a point?
That Palestine doesn't have a monopoly on terrorism.
So justifying Israel's current actions and boundaries by saying something as facile and ahistorical as "I'm not letting some terrorists force me out" is a big fucking neon sign that the person making that statement has abandoned all pretense of logic and is building a settlement in boilerplate propaganda land.
There are plenty of reasons to defend Israel's right to exist. Trotting out the "terrorism" boogeyman isn't one of them.
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
A good reason to form a government ... in the middle of a desert currently occupied by hostile cultists who believe the land is magic?
The Jews who moved to America and integrated with American society seem to be doing much better than the Jews who moved to Israel.
Frankly, I think the rational Jewish response to the Holocaust is "maybe I should stop believing in my stupid religion." It's really a shame that so many Jews have taken the opposite approach and clung even more stubbornly to their irrelevant faith, just to spite Hitler posthumously or something.
(I have a feeling this post is going to make this thread take a turn for the worse.)
That's what I take away from the Holocaust, too - people should stop being Jews.
Wait, what?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The "problem" with the Palestinians is that the Israelis are occupying their fucking land! Why won't those inconsiderate bastards just roll over and let Israel oppress their people?
How does your claim to ownership work? Is it originalism? The Israelis might have a claim in that case - they lived in that region thousands of years ago. Is it possession? The Israelis have the land now, and have had it for the past sixty years. Only the oldest generation of surviving Palestinians actually lived on the land their children and grandchildren are laying claim to. Wouldn't kicking out Israelis who have lived in Israel for sixty years (or longer!) be just as much of an injustice as kicking out the Palestinians who were there before?
In any case, Israel is a reality and it is here to stay. Solutions which call for Israel and its citizens to magically disappear are just as unrealistic as those which call for Palestinian refugees to magically disappear.
Okay, you have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't we start with the fact that the Palestinian state was supposed to be established at the same time as the Israeli one, and move on from there? By the way, I meant that in the literal sense of Israelis forcibly evict Palestinian villages, not some ridiculous originalism claim that isn't really all that relevant.
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
A good reason to form a government ... in the middle of a desert currently occupied by hostile cultists who believe the land is magic?
The Jews who moved to America and integrated with American society seem to be doing much better than the Jews who moved to Israel.
Frankly, I think the rational Jewish response to the Holocaust is "maybe I should stop believing in my stupid religion." It's really a shame that so many Jews have taken the opposite approach and clung even more stubbornly to their irrelevant faith, just to spite Hitler posthumously or something.
(I have a feeling this post is going to make this thread take a turn for the worse.)
That's what I take away from the Holocaust, too - people should stop being Jews.
Wait, what?
Cause, you know, you can easily change your genetic makeup, which is what the Nazis were mostly concerned about anyway.
nosnibor on
When you're a spy, it's a good idea to give away your trade secrets in a voiceover on a TV show.
I notice this thread has moved pretty quickly from "Israel is being a dick" to "Israel has no right to exist." I would argue that seeing 6 million of your people slaughtered is a pretty good reason to form a government in which you are the majority, and to take steps to ensure that majority continues.
A good reason to form a government ... in the middle of a desert currently occupied by hostile cultists who believe the land is magic?
The Jews who moved to America and integrated with American society seem to be doing much better than the Jews who moved to Israel.
Frankly, I think the rational Jewish response to the Holocaust is "maybe I should stop believing in my stupid religion." It's really a shame that so many Jews have taken the opposite approach and clung even more stubbornly to their irrelevant faith, just to spite Hitler posthumously or something.
(I have a feeling this post is going to make this thread take a turn for the worse.)
1. It's also pretty much a race. That is harder to change than religion, typically. They would be/were/are still persecuted if they are christian or atheist jews. Your premise is inaccurate even if you could really expect people to change their religion for such reasons.
2. They are a minority, and though they are accepted as members of society(as german jews were), laws and culture could change. Isreal will always be a safe-haven for jew from all over the world. Ones in europe and america, can live secure in the knowledge that it is there if they need it. By staying there they are fighting for the security of their people.
The "problem" with the Palestinians is that the Israelis are occupying their fucking land! Why won't those inconsiderate bastards just roll over and let Israel oppress their people?
How does your claim to ownership work? Is it originalism? The Israelis might have a claim in that case - they lived in that region thousands of years ago. Is it possession? The Israelis have the land now, and have had it for the past sixty years. Only the oldest generation of surviving Palestinians actually lived on the land their children and grandchildren are laying claim to. Wouldn't kicking out Israelis who have lived in Israel for sixty years (or longer!) be just as much of an injustice as kicking out the Palestinians who were there before?
In any case, Israel is a reality and it is here to stay. Solutions which call for Israel and its citizens to magically disappear are just as unrealistic as those which call for Palestinian refugees to magically disappear.
Okay, you have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't we start with the fact that the Palestinian state was supposed to be established at the same time as the Israeli one, and move on from there? By the way, I meant that in the literal sense of Israelis forcibly evict Palestinian villages, not some ridiculous originalism claim that isn't really all that relevant.
And you don't think the reason for the continuing occupation of Palestine has maybe just a little bit to do with terrorism? Just a smidge? I don't think anyone would argue that the Palestinian people haven't been mistreated, but the intransigence of their leadership is as much to blame for that as the Israel "oppressors".
I assume that there are a bunch of very good reasons why completely annexing all of the occupied territory and giving full Israeli citizenship to everyone wouldn't work, right?
This would make Jews a minority, which defeats the purpose of Israel.
Israel is supposed to be an ethnically homogeneous state controlled by jews. And they'll do anything to keep it that way.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
Perhaps it's time for Jews to realize that "the Holocaust" is just as stupid of a reason to form a country in the middle of Muslim-occupied land as "property deal with ancient Mesopotamian deity."
How's about 'this is where I was born. It is my homeland. I'm not letting some terrorists force me out.'?
That's starting to get pretty common, I think.
That line of logic is used by Palestinian civilians displaced in 1948 and 1967 as well as Israelis.
fixed that for you.
Do you have a point?
That Palestine doesn't have a monopoly on terrorism.
So justifying Israel's current actions and boundaries by saying something as facile and ahistorical as "I'm not letting some terrorists force me out" is a big fucking neon sign that the person making that statement has abandoned all pretense of logic and is building a settlement in boilerplate propaganda land.
There are plenty of reasons to defend Israel's right to exist. Trotting out the "terrorism" boogeyman isn't one of them.
nice bit of rhetoric there, "Trotting out the "terrorism" boogeyman" nice.
The fact of the matter is most humans recognize that forcing someone to leave there home is wrong. Most humans in first world nations recognize that two wrongs don't make a right. Some humans recognize that considering the argument is the same for both sides, it doesn't hold much weight, and therefore any decision based on it(forcing either party to leave) is pretty much evil and will be ineffective because the individuals that make up each side will not accept it.
Israel isn't going anywhere. Nor are the Palestinians. Either they will learn to live together, or they will keep killing each other.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The "problem" with the Palestinians is that the Israelis are occupying their fucking land! Why won't those inconsiderate bastards just roll over and let Israel oppress their people?
How does your claim to ownership work? Is it originalism? The Israelis might have a claim in that case - they lived in that region thousands of years ago. Is it possession? The Israelis have the land now, and have had it for the past sixty years. Only the oldest generation of surviving Palestinians actually lived on the land their children and grandchildren are laying claim to. Wouldn't kicking out Israelis who have lived in Israel for sixty years (or longer!) be just as much of an injustice as kicking out the Palestinians who were there before?
In any case, Israel is a reality and it is here to stay. Solutions which call for Israel and its citizens to magically disappear are just as unrealistic as those which call for Palestinian refugees to magically disappear.
Okay, you have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't we start with the fact that the Palestinian state was supposed to be established at the same time as the Israeli one, and move on from there? By the way, I meant that in the literal sense of Israelis forcibly evict Palestinian villages, not some ridiculous originalism claim that isn't really all that relevant.
And you don't think the reason for the continuing occupation of Palestine has maybe just a little bit to do with terrorism? Just a smidge? I don't think anyone would argue that the Palestinian people haven't been mistreated, but the intransigence of their leadership is as much to blame for that as the Israel "oppressors".
Not really. Considering the occupation has been found to be illegal by just about everyone except the U.S. and Israel, combined with the fact that if Israelis left we'd be one huge godsdamn step closer to a cease in hostilities, combined with the fact that resistance against oppressive and illegal occupiers is a somewhat valid and defensible strategy (minus the reprehensible targeting of civilians committed by both sides), I'd say Israel really should go back to what the borders were originally supposed to be. The Palestinians deserve their own state, and what the Israelis have been doing to prevent that is horrible.
Is it OK to call those seeing some divine right to a completely jewish Israel Zionists? Cause I do think using the term jew all over the place is kind of reaching. There are tons of jews (practicing and non-practicing) that are not Zionists in that sense, and calling out jews in general for that is just as racist as calling out all palestinians for bombing israel.
It seems to fit the definition, except the part of the divine right, which is problematic. Extremist Zionists maybe?
That's what I take away from the Holocaust, too - people should stop being Jews.
Wait, what?
I suppose I should have been more clear: if Jews were so devastated by genocide, then perhaps they should stop identifying themselves with a religion that is based on the only religious text to command genocide.
Cause, you know, you can easily change your genetic makeup, which is what the Nazis were mostly concerned about anyway.
Yes, the Nazis and many Jews thought/think that Judaism is in your genetic makeup.
I've always been curious as to how the belief in a Mesopotamian deity named Yahweh was passed down genetically, on your mother's side no less. The only convincing explanation I have heard is "Jewish magic."
Judaism is not a fucking race. The fact that some dumbasses believe it is a race does not make it so.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
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They've tried, on numerous occasions. Most notably, the 2000 Camp David Summit which arguably cost Ehud Barak his ministry. At that summit, the Israelis offered 91% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority as a separate, sovereign state. In exchange, the Israelis wanted the Palestinians to first crack down on their terrorists. That was all they asked.
Arafat turned them down flat.
It was a lot more complicated than that, but if that's really true then starvation then seems like a good option.
I have no idea.
I might just do NOTHING.
Neutral jin. Nonviolent resistance on a national scale. Keep the military around in case anyone actually tries to invade with an army. But treat rocket and terrorist attacks like unfortunate weather events that come with the territory of living in a state surrounded by crazy religious fanatics.
At the same time, grant Palestinians citizenship rights and allow them to travel freely in Israel, so the people launching rockets and suicide bombs will have to deal with the possibility of killing their own.
This would probably vastly decrease the property values in Israel and make a shit-ton of Jews leave. Oh well. They should ask themselves what the hell they are doing there in the first place, and if their answer involves an ages-old agreement with an imaginary Mesopotamian deity, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for them.
Eh. I don't think there's any preconditions for criticizing anyone, just as long as you're not being a hypocrite about it.
This is a real answer. Although I'm not entirely convinced it would succeed, it's at least a plan to solve the problem, unlike, say "Obey the Geneva Convention" or "Get out of Israel".
The problem as I see it is that most of the other states in the region, notably Syria, Jordan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, all have a vested interest in keeping this conflict going. As long as the Israelis have this Palestinian problem, they can use it to divert attention from their own human rights abuses, which suits them quite nicely.
ehh... they'd probably cite something more recent and more likely evoke sympathy. Online debate etiquette prevents me from going into further detail.
How does your claim to ownership work? Is it originalism? The Israelis might have a claim in that case - they lived in that region thousands of years ago. Is it possession? The Israelis have the land now, and have had it for the past sixty years. Only the oldest generation of surviving Palestinians actually lived on the land their children and grandchildren are laying claim to. Wouldn't kicking out Israelis who have lived in Israel for sixty years (or longer!) be just as much of an injustice as kicking out the Palestinians who were there before?
In any case, Israel is a reality and it is here to stay. Solutions which call for Israel and its citizens to magically disappear are just as unrealistic as those which call for Palestinian refugees to magically disappear.
That's starting to get pretty common, I think.
I'll make a wild guess and say those 91% didn't include Jerusalem.
What I can find about the deal online isn't clear, although it appears that Palestinians would have, at the least, had some control over Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem. The Palestinian offer on Jerusalem involved a split city - half under Palestinian sovereignty, half under "Israeli authority but not sovereignty".
Interpret that as you will.
That line of logic could be used by Palestinian civilians displaced in 1948 and 1967 as well as Israelis.
Do you have a point?
I could while away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head, I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain.
It would allow Jewish people to stay in power, and the Arabs do not want to be under Jewish rule.
The Jews who moved to America and integrated with American society seem to be doing much better than the Jews who moved to Israel.
Frankly, I think the rational Jewish response to the Holocaust is "maybe I should stop believing in my stupid religion." It's really a shame that so many Jews have taken the opposite approach and clung even more stubbornly to their irrelevant faith, just to spite Hitler posthumously or something.
(I have a feeling this post is going to make this thread take a turn for the worse.)
Yes. The first being that neither the Israelis (who are concerned with maintaining a majority-Jewish state) nor the Palestinians (who abhor the idea of becoming part of the Zionist oppressor nation) want that.
+1
Are you saying I'm stupid? Because there's nothing in what I said that would suggest that, and I don't appreciate being personally attacked just because we may not agree on the issue.
That Palestine doesn't have a monopoly on terrorism.
So justifying Israel's current actions and boundaries by saying something as facile and ahistorical as "I'm not letting some terrorists force me out" is a big fucking neon sign that the person making that statement has abandoned all pretense of logic and is building a settlement in boilerplate propaganda land.
There are plenty of reasons to defend Israel's right to exist. Trotting out the "terrorism" boogeyman isn't one of them.
That's what I take away from the Holocaust, too - people should stop being Jews.
Wait, what?
Cause, you know, you can easily change your genetic makeup, which is what the Nazis were mostly concerned about anyway.
1. It's also pretty much a race. That is harder to change than religion, typically. They would be/were/are still persecuted if they are christian or atheist jews. Your premise is inaccurate even if you could really expect people to change their religion for such reasons.
2. They are a minority, and though they are accepted as members of society(as german jews were), laws and culture could change. Isreal will always be a safe-haven for jew from all over the world. Ones in europe and america, can live secure in the knowledge that it is there if they need it. By staying there they are fighting for the security of their people.
And you don't think the reason for the continuing occupation of Palestine has maybe just a little bit to do with terrorism? Just a smidge? I don't think anyone would argue that the Palestinian people haven't been mistreated, but the intransigence of their leadership is as much to blame for that as the Israel "oppressors".
This would make Jews a minority, which defeats the purpose of Israel.
Israel is supposed to be an ethnically homogeneous state controlled by jews. And they'll do anything to keep it that way.
Sounds peachy doesn't it?
nice bit of rhetoric there, "Trotting out the "terrorism" boogeyman" nice.
The fact of the matter is most humans recognize that forcing someone to leave there home is wrong. Most humans in first world nations recognize that two wrongs don't make a right. Some humans recognize that considering the argument is the same for both sides, it doesn't hold much weight, and therefore any decision based on it(forcing either party to leave) is pretty much evil and will be ineffective because the individuals that make up each side will not accept it.
Israel isn't going anywhere. Nor are the Palestinians. Either they will learn to live together, or they will keep killing each other.
It seems to fit the definition, except the part of the divine right, which is problematic. Extremist Zionists maybe?
Yes, the Nazis and many Jews thought/think that Judaism is in your genetic makeup.
I've always been curious as to how the belief in a Mesopotamian deity named Yahweh was passed down genetically, on your mother's side no less. The only convincing explanation I have heard is "Jewish magic."
Judaism is not a fucking race. The fact that some dumbasses believe it is a race does not make it so.
Only in the respect that the "purpose" should turn your stomach.