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Black focused schools - A huge step ahead.

124

Posts

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Pffft aren't you politically correct Jin? White people are one big homogeneous mass with no heritage. All white Americans descend directly from rich snobby plantation owners.

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    And all white Canadians descend from smelly French voyageurs carrying beaver pelts in canoo's. Or at least I did :P

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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I don't see why it's pertinent but I'm Canadian and white. My mom's parents are English or something and they came here during WWII.

  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Pffft aren't you politically correct Jin? White people are one big homogeneous mass with no heritage. All white Americans descend directly from rich snobby plantation owners.

    There's a difference between being the son of a first generation Cambodian immigrant and being some guy who drinks green beer on St. Patties'. To pretend otherwise is pretty fucktarded.

  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Azio wrote: »
    And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    Also, holy shit. Am I the only one who read that?

  • AegisAegis Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    White and Canadian. My grandparents on my father's side immigrated from Italy sometime in the 40s or something, can't recall. Also with Azio on why exactly this is pertinent?

  • AegisAegis Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    Also, holy shit. Am I the only one who read that?

    Yea, I missed that being at the end of a long quoted chain. That's some rather fucked up thinking there.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    Also, holy shit. Am I the only one who read that?

    It's true no?

    Like it or not if you talk ghetto in a business environment people are going to assume you're not smart. Fair maybe not but that the facts of life.

  • AegisAegis Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    Also, holy shit. Am I the only one who read that?

    It's true no?

    Like it or not if you talk ghetto in a business environment people are going to assume you're not smart. Fair maybe not but that the facts of life.

    I believe the point is that, the way the statement is framed it is inferring that there's something intrinsic about white people that make them more 'proper' than those 'other' folks. Last time I checked, economic and social disadvantages also impact white people.

  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I'm the son of Indian immigrants

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  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited February 2008
    It's blaming the victim at its worst. The implication is both that if only black people acted white they'd be treated fairly (which is pretty full of shit), and also that because they choose not to do so it's their fault when they're mistreated (also full of shit).

  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    Also, holy shit. Am I the only one who read that?

    It's true no?

    Like it or not if you talk ghetto in a business environment people are going to assume you're not smart. Fair maybe not but that the facts of life.
    I don't think it's racist or unfair to say someone is unqualified for a job because they don't know how to speak English properly. Especially at the entry level where most jobs involve dealing with customers who need to be able to understand the words that are coming out of your mouth. Talking like 50 Cent gets you nowhere, unless you're 50 Cent.

    If you're going to equate proper, coherent speech (which should be pretty easy for someone growing up in Toronto to learn, regardless of who their parents are) and displaying a high level of general intelligence with "acting white", well, maybe black people need to "act white" some more. I disagree that black people in Toronto are at a disadvantage based solely on the colour of their skin. I know lots of successful black people and the one thing they all have in common is they don't act like they haven't seen a book in their lives. Maybe if black kids in Toronto didn't exclude and ridicule intellectuals and accuse them of "acting white" then there wouldn't be such a dearth of opportunities for them.

    edit: I don't think black people should pretend that they're white. I'm trying to ridicule the phrase "acting white" because it's fucking stupid.
    edit2: I admit I'm unfamilliar with this issue, and I grew up in a more or less racially harmonious place where blacks are a very small minority. I'm mostly pulling stuff out of my ass.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    One wonders if this will be just an 'Afrocentric' school or if it will be a school that is better equipped to deal with the problems plaguing inner-city black youth
    I was pretty much coming in here just to say this.

    There's a problem with the schools in this area. This is a proposed solution, so they're going to try it. It's voluntary, it's experimental, and if it doesn't do well, they can always shitcan it, and try something else.

  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Yet human rights activist Vicky McPhee said an Africentric school "is a right," and the only type of school to which she wants to send her 6-year-old child. She called for these schools in each of the city's 22 wards.

    There. There is your answer.

    Some people don't want integration. They want to separate themselves from others that they have deemed inferior or hostile to them. People only tend to think of Racism in terms of "White Guy being a cock to a Non-White Guy", but this? This right here? Racism at it's finest.

    The only thing that's going to solve this problem, regardless of the country attempting to solve it, is to keep education well funded, the curriculum as free of bias as possible, and to encourage kids to interact and learn together. The fact that an "afri-centric" school is even being considered shows just how little people understand the problem.

    It was never about skin color, so stop taking statistics based on skin color. :P



    (sorry for the mini-rant, that quote got under my skin.)

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  • VodkaVodka Registered User
    edited February 2008
    I think that the problem, as many people have already stated above, is not skin color as much as economic position. Despite what the speakers that come into public schools tell you, the poor in the US (I admit I know next to nothing about the situation in Canada, but I doubt it is too far removed) are pretty much fucked.

    In lower-class neighborhoods the schools are underfunded, ( less tax dollars from the poor kids parents = less taxes for school = less funding = poor education = stupid kids grew up to be parents who can't make more money to fund their children's schools) and the fact that blacks make up a larger portion of poor people is why whenever dropout rates are discussed everyone throws down the race card.

    Let me address what I meant by saying that poor people are fucked. Firstly, today it is pretty hard to find a job that will support you and a family without a college degree or some trade such as carpentry. Decent jobs that should not require a degree are a thing of the past. The cost of tuition is astronomical (If you want to disagree with this observation, it serves my argument that the middle and upper class have unrealistic views as to how little capital poor people have to work with.) and is barring more poor kids from getting a degree. But that's cool, I'll take my High School Diploma and go to the local steel mill or car production plant and perform back breaking physical labor for the rest of my life to squeeze out a meager existence for me and my family. Oh wait, jobs for people without a degree are gone. Guess I'm living this life in poverty, but my kids will have a shoot at college right? Nope, and the same situation I was stuck in returns to damn them. This cycle is why I believe the rich are getting richer and the poor are dropping further off the charts. In today's world you need money to make money.

    I know the counter point already, "OMG U poor kids need to work harder and save money for college LOL U CAN GET scholarships if you work hard so if you dont go to college its your fault cause your two STOOPID" and I admit the finical aid systems in place now are a help to get every kid an opportunity to go to college.
    But when I get a job at 16 and start saving for college, then have to go to college in my hometown and maintain a full time job to support myself and pay tuition, and because I'm going to graduate with close to $50,000 in student loan debt, but other kids go to big out of state schools thanks to mommy and daddy's wallet and don't have to work at all during their 4 years. If you don't think poor kids don't take flak for their inability to follow their high school friends to Big Party A & M then let me tell you, they do. When I have to scrape the bottom of the collegiate barrel and work myself to death to afford it, and other people are making fun of me because I can't go to a big school and party then I tend to feel shitty about my own attempt to make it in life. Many poor people will say "Fuck this, why should I work so hard for so little and still not be able to achieve what everyone has handed to them, and these rich people still look down on me." I don't blame people that abuse the welfare system, I hate the welfare system but not the people abusing it.

    How can you hate these people who give up on education and live the only way they can when the only reason they have to live on welfare is because of the barriers that we set up for them?


    In closing, black school is a terrible idea, the underlaying issue is without a doubt economic status and to a greater degree, economic mobility.

    The black school is like changing your oil when you get a flat tire, it's not gonna solve anything.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Houn wrote: »
    Some people don't want integration. They want to separate themselves from others that they have deemed inferior or hostile to them. People only tend to think of Racism in terms of "White Guy being a cock to a Non-White Guy", but this? This right here? Racism at it's finest.

    The only thing that's going to solve this problem, regardless of the country attempting to solve it, is to keep education well funded, the curriculum as free of bias as possible, and to encourage kids to interact and learn together. The fact that an "afri-centric" school is even being considered shows just how little people understand the problem.

    No, the problem is that Blacks get February and are told to fuck off for the rest of the year. How much of your curriculum, especially the soft stuff, discusses anything but the mainstream culture in anything other than a token manner? That's the problem - many minority groups feel like outsiders because in the eyes of our popular culture they ARE outsiders. Telling them to "get over it" does jack shit.

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  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Houn wrote: »
    Some people don't want integration. They want to separate themselves from others that they have deemed inferior or hostile to them. People only tend to think of Racism in terms of "White Guy being a cock to a Non-White Guy", but this? This right here? Racism at it's finest.

    The only thing that's going to solve this problem, regardless of the country attempting to solve it, is to keep education well funded, the curriculum as free of bias as possible, and to encourage kids to interact and learn together. The fact that an "afri-centric" school is even being considered shows just how little people understand the problem.

    No, the problem is that Blacks get February and are told to fuck off for the rest of the year. How much of your curriculum, especially the soft stuff, discusses anything but the mainstream culture in anything other than a token manner? That's the problem - many minority groups feel like outsiders because in the eyes of our popular culture they ARE outsiders. Telling them to "get over it" does jack shit.

    How does that even come close to relating to my post?

    Did you miss the part where I said "the curriculum as free of bias as possible"? Are you going to stand there and tell me that insulating ourselves into little like-colored groups is going to do ANYTHING to help with either racism or educational problems?

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  • saggiosaggio Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Houn wrote: »
    Some people don't want integration. They want to separate themselves from others that they have deemed inferior or hostile to them. People only tend to think of Racism in terms of "White Guy being a cock to a Non-White Guy", but this? This right here? Racism at it's finest.

    The only thing that's going to solve this problem, regardless of the country attempting to solve it, is to keep education well funded, the curriculum as free of bias as possible, and to encourage kids to interact and learn together. The fact that an "afri-centric" school is even being considered shows just how little people understand the problem.

    No, the problem is that Blacks get February and are told to fuck off for the rest of the year. How much of your curriculum, especially the soft stuff, discusses anything but the mainstream culture in anything other than a token manner? That's the problem - many minority groups feel like outsiders because in the eyes of our popular culture they ARE outsiders. Telling them to "get over it" does jack shit.

    Maybe it's an Ontario thing, but in BC, significant portions of history/cultural studies stuff is dedicated to the non-white, non-european Canadian experience. More over, there is a shit tonne of schools in the Lower Mainland/Fraser Valley where the white kids are in the minority. It wasn't like that way at my school, but that's only because I live in the middle of Canada's Bible Belt. Everywhere else around Vancouver and Victoria have lots and lots of non-white Canadians. All of which is reflected fairly well in the provincial curriculum and wider cultural events in the community.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Houn wrote: »
    Houn wrote: »
    Some people don't want integration. They want to separate themselves from others that they have deemed inferior or hostile to them. People only tend to think of Racism in terms of "White Guy being a cock to a Non-White Guy", but this? This right here? Racism at it's finest.

    The only thing that's going to solve this problem, regardless of the country attempting to solve it, is to keep education well funded, the curriculum as free of bias as possible, and to encourage kids to interact and learn together. The fact that an "afri-centric" school is even being considered shows just how little people understand the problem.

    No, the problem is that Blacks get February and are told to fuck off for the rest of the year. How much of your curriculum, especially the soft stuff, discusses anything but the mainstream culture in anything other than a token manner? That's the problem - many minority groups feel like outsiders because in the eyes of our popular culture they ARE outsiders. Telling them to "get over it" does jack shit.

    How does that even come close to relating to my post?

    Did you miss the part where I said "the curriculum as free of bias as possible"? Are you going to stand there and tell me that insulating ourselves into little like-colored groups is going to do ANYTHING to help with either racism or educational problems?

    Here's a hint - the College Board continues to struggle with this very issue over the SATs, and has done so for years. What makes you think you'll do better?

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  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Houn wrote: »
    Houn wrote: »
    Some people don't want integration. They want to separate themselves from others that they have deemed inferior or hostile to them. People only tend to think of Racism in terms of "White Guy being a cock to a Non-White Guy", but this? This right here? Racism at it's finest.

    The only thing that's going to solve this problem, regardless of the country attempting to solve it, is to keep education well funded, the curriculum as free of bias as possible, and to encourage kids to interact and learn together. The fact that an "afri-centric" school is even being considered shows just how little people understand the problem.

    No, the problem is that Blacks get February and are told to fuck off for the rest of the year. How much of your curriculum, especially the soft stuff, discusses anything but the mainstream culture in anything other than a token manner? That's the problem - many minority groups feel like outsiders because in the eyes of our popular culture they ARE outsiders. Telling them to "get over it" does jack shit.

    How does that even come close to relating to my post?

    Did you miss the part where I said "the curriculum as free of bias as possible"? Are you going to stand there and tell me that insulating ourselves into little like-colored groups is going to do ANYTHING to help with either racism or educational problems?

    Here's a hint - the College Board continues to struggle with this very issue over the SATs, and has done so for years. What makes you think you'll do better?

    I didn't say it was easy. I even admitted "as possible", because it'll never be completely free of Bias. We're biased creatures, deal with it. That said, it's not unreasonable to believe that if some group is underrepresented in historical and cultural studies that the curriculum might be improved to a decent point.

    You didn't answer my question. Are you going to stand there and tell me that insulating ourselves into little like-colored groups is going to do ANYTHING to help with either racism or educational problems?

    Don't bother responding with these poorly thought out non-responses until you're ready to state your position. :P

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2008
    No, the problem is that Blacks get February and are told to fuck off for the rest of the year. How much of your curriculum, especially the soft stuff, discusses anything but the mainstream culture in anything other than a token manner? That's the problem - many minority groups feel like outsiders because in the eyes of our popular culture they ARE outsiders. Telling them to "get over it" does jack shit.

    I also think that many attempts at extolling "black history" are pretty retarded. You get lists of black people who did shit like inventing the electric toothpick, and this is supposed to be indicative of black contributions to modern society in the same way as did George Washington leading an army against the British.

    I think a lot of the doings of black people in contexts other than the Civil War and the 60s civil rights movement are probably pretty much ignored. I also, however, think that any objective account of American history is going to be looking principally at white males doing things, partly because white guys are a numerical majority, and partly because white guys were more in a position to do important things for much of our nation's history.

    A large part of the problem is that our manner of teaching history is very fact-based. It's largely a big clot of dates and names and specific events, and rich white men are the ones who dominated much of this realm. The problem with a lot of approaches to expanding the coverage of minorities is that they try to squeeze them into this same system. Woodrow Wilson did X in December of Y. Did a black guy do anything that month? Oh, hey, this guy over here wrote a book that nobody's ever heard of, let's just mention that. It makes Black History look pretty lame.

    What needs to be done is a more holistic focus on the evolution of black culture, alongside the same in white culture, Hispanic culture, mixed culture, and so on. But this would require a radical departure from the way history is taught, and so instead we get mired down in the data point game, which makes black contributions to history look pretty weak, which results in shit like Afrocentric Schools.

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  • ElkiElki hegemon globalSuper Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2008
    Azio wrote: »
    And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    Yeah, I'll get right on that. I'll brush my teeth and wear pants like a good little waspy and see how that works out.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Elki wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    Yeah, I'll get right on that. I'll brush my teeth and wear pants like a good little waspy and see how that works out.

    Sell out.

  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Azio wrote: »
    If you're a black student and you fail, it's because you're being screwed over by white people and their overly Euro-centric curricula. If only the government had taken all that money they spent buying new books for your school library, and instead pumped it into special schools designed for people with dark skin, you might have had a chance.

    If you're a black student and you succeed, or read, or use proper fucking English instead of pretending you just escaped from an 18th-century Alabama plantation, you're ostracized by your peers for "acting white", whatever the fuck that means.

    I don't think the schools are the problem here. I think the people are the problem. I think a lot of black kids in racially integrated communities are being taught by their parents and role models to fear and exclude intellectuals and to associate intellectualism with white people. And God forbid you act like a white person, someone might forget what colour your skin is and actually give you a fair shake.

    You're all pulling it out of context. It's clearly meant to be using the term "act like a white person" as a reference to the aforementioned "acting white". He probably should of put quotes around it again to avoid confusion, though.

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  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's blaming the victim at its worst. The implication is both that if only black people acted white they'd be treated fairly (which is pretty full of shit), and also that because they choose not to do so it's their fault when they're mistreated (also full of shit).

    First of all, you gotta realize that even in this statement you're assigning stereotypes to ethnic behavior. What is "acting white?" Well, judging from many terrible and lazy black comedians, it means you wear a tie, horn-rim glasses, eat mayonnaise sandwiches, and talk like Ward Cleaver with voice immodulation.

    The way it appears to mean within black culture, however, is being adverse to improper speaking patterns, wearing traditionally-cut clothing in a traditional manner, attempting to attain success in school or work, and keeping a steady job.

    If that's what black culture calls "acting white," then those who would espouse acting against it need to look around and look at what successful, professional people look like. There's no great professional stigma against "acting white," it's against acting uncouth and ignorant. And if you roll into a job interview with untied shoes, your pants hanging off your ass, an untucked shirt bearing the image of Scarface, and you can't go one sentence without dutifully proving your illiteracy and lack of erudition, uncouth and ignorant is exactly what you are. I don't care how real you're keeping it.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's blaming the victim at its worst. The implication is both that if only black people acted white they'd be treated fairly (which is pretty full of shit), and also that because they choose not to do so it's their fault when they're mistreated (also full of shit).

    First of all, you gotta realize that even in this statement you're assigning stereotypes to ethnic behavior. What is "acting white?" Well, judging from many terrible and lazy black comedians, it means you wear a tie, horn-rim glasses, eat mayonnaise sandwiches, and talk like Ward Cleaver with voice immodulation.

    The way it appears to mean within black culture, however, is being adverse to improper speaking patterns, wearing traditionally-cut clothing in a traditional manner, attempting to attain success in school or work, and keeping a steady job.

    If that's what black culture calls "acting white," then those who would espouse acting against it need to look around and look at what successful, professional people look like. There's no great professional stigma against "acting white," it's against acting uncouth and ignorant. And if you roll into a job interview with untied shoes, your pants hanging off your ass, an untucked shirt bearing the image of Scarface, and you can't go one sentence without dutifully proving your illiteracy and lack of erudition, uncouth and ignorant is exactly what you are. I don't care how real you're keeping it.
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.

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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's blaming the victim at its worst. The implication is both that if only black people acted white they'd be treated fairly (which is pretty full of shit), and also that because they choose not to do so it's their fault when they're mistreated (also full of shit).

    First of all, you gotta realize that even in this statement you're assigning stereotypes to ethnic behavior. What is "acting white?" Well, judging from many terrible and lazy black comedians, it means you wear a tie, horn-rim glasses, eat mayonnaise sandwiches, and talk like Ward Cleaver with voice immodulation.

    The way it appears to mean within black culture, however, is being adverse to improper speaking patterns, wearing traditionally-cut clothing in a traditional manner, attempting to attain success in school or work, and keeping a steady job.

    If that's what black culture calls "acting white," then those who would espouse acting against it need to look around and look at what successful, professional people look like. There's no great professional stigma against "acting white," it's against acting uncouth and ignorant. And if you roll into a job interview with untied shoes, your pants hanging off your ass, an untucked shirt bearing the image of Scarface, and you can't go one sentence without dutifully proving your illiteracy and lack of erudition, uncouth and ignorant is exactly what you are. I don't care how real you're keeping it.
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.
    Canada has no history of oppression or official racism against blacks, mainly just natives and Chinese railway workers. And Chinese people don't go around wearing stupidly baggy pants, speaking in godawful dialects and basically making doubly sure everyone knows they're Chinese to remind us that people who kind of look like them had to pay head taxes 150 years ago.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's blaming the victim at its worst. The implication is both that if only black people acted white they'd be treated fairly (which is pretty full of shit), and also that because they choose not to do so it's their fault when they're mistreated (also full of shit).

    First of all, you gotta realize that even in this statement you're assigning stereotypes to ethnic behavior. What is "acting white?" Well, judging from many terrible and lazy black comedians, it means you wear a tie, horn-rim glasses, eat mayonnaise sandwiches, and talk like Ward Cleaver with voice immodulation.

    The way it appears to mean within black culture, however, is being adverse to improper speaking patterns, wearing traditionally-cut clothing in a traditional manner, attempting to attain success in school or work, and keeping a steady job.

    If that's what black culture calls "acting white," then those who would espouse acting against it need to look around and look at what successful, professional people look like. There's no great professional stigma against "acting white," it's against acting uncouth and ignorant. And if you roll into a job interview with untied shoes, your pants hanging off your ass, an untucked shirt bearing the image of Scarface, and you can't go one sentence without dutifully proving your illiteracy and lack of erudition, uncouth and ignorant is exactly what you are. I don't care how real you're keeping it.
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.

    Yes, there's a reason for it.

    It doesn't make it any less stupid or self-defeating.

  • wawkinwawkin Registered User
    edited February 2008
    These issues always get complicated. The blame cast in all directions. Before mentioning the Black focused schools, I just want to make one point. The remnants of racism, prejudice, and sterotypes all stem from one thing: hate. Those other words are just a mask for the truth. If you have hate in your heart, it will manifest itself in some form. The most usual form is the condemnation of anything that is not similar to oneself.

    Short people get edgy around tall people. Black people get edgy around white people. The rich get edgy around the poor. The skinny and the fat. I am not stating absolutes, because there rarely are any, but these are common relationships of angst. The main idea behind them being : "If you are not like me, then something is wrong with you."

    Keep that in mind.


    As to the article and the main topic of discussion in this thread, I have to agree with the majority opinion. Segregation, especially willful segregation, will come across as being elitest. The few students that benefit from the arrangement will be the same students that would benefit from the current arrangement. The only people, who are and can be, considered succesful are those that put forth the effort to make something of themselves in this life. I believe we all can agree the opportunites are available, even in the worst schools, residing in the worst neighborhoods. People have made it out of those environments to become productive members of society. So it is not impossible. What prevents this scenario from occuring more often?

    People get comfortable with 'the way things are'. By that, I mean a person can easily become set in, complacent to their environment, given enough time to adjust. The poor are so used to being poor. They complain, as anyone does that is lacking something that is wanted, but what do they do about it? The truth is, there are very few that dare to be different. That dare to think they deserve more and actively seek it.

    Whether you decide to follow a path that coincides with law and order, or if you should choose a different route, the result among your peers is the same. If you dare to be something more some will look up to you, some will ignore you, some will show open disdain towards you. They see you leaving them in one form or another and they notice that you are different from them. Why aren't I like that? That's the question they should ask. Instead, because homosapiens are mostly selfish creatures (my opinion anyway), they ask instead: Why isn't (s)he like me? They see the one getting something that many of them want and instead of following the example (though some do), most of them try to pull you back down. Because if everyone stays equal, then no one is strong and so it's no one persons fault that their lives aren't what they want them or wish them to be. Hey, that's just the way it is, right?

    It only takes one person to shatter that image of the world. And when you shatter someones illusions, most often, they do not respond positively. So the hate comes into the picture. Then it becomes a situation where you are forced to choose sides. Be like everyone else or be alone (or be the minority in the group, referring to simple numbers here; i.e- 2 out of 32). Those who have the strength to do what's neccessary without help only thrive even more when they actually receive help. Those who wouldn't have broken free of their own will, rarely will with help.

    So will afrocentric schools help decrease the dropout rate? Barely. They will only help the few that are teetering on the edge. Not nearly enough to justify the expense and effort.

    And just as food for thought: This shattering of illusions is universal.
    -Everyone in the class get a 'D' on that last test except for that one kid who got an 'A'? Damn him for ruining the curve, right?
    -Workmate get promoted over the rest of you? What a brown nosing son of a bitch, you should have gotten that position, right?
    -Neighbor got that new car? What a prick, always showing off his success, right?

    Matter of fact, the only time human beings consistently give their praise, rather than their derision, to someone who displays abilities above and beyond the majority, is if those abilities manifest themselves in a physical form. Think about that and whether or not you find it to be consistent with the world around you.

    Talkin to the robbery expert.

    "This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Azio wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's blaming the victim at its worst. The implication is both that if only black people acted white they'd be treated fairly (which is pretty full of shit), and also that because they choose not to do so it's their fault when they're mistreated (also full of shit).

    First of all, you gotta realize that even in this statement you're assigning stereotypes to ethnic behavior. What is "acting white?" Well, judging from many terrible and lazy black comedians, it means you wear a tie, horn-rim glasses, eat mayonnaise sandwiches, and talk like Ward Cleaver with voice immodulation.

    The way it appears to mean within black culture, however, is being adverse to improper speaking patterns, wearing traditionally-cut clothing in a traditional manner, attempting to attain success in school or work, and keeping a steady job.

    If that's what black culture calls "acting white," then those who would espouse acting against it need to look around and look at what successful, professional people look like. There's no great professional stigma against "acting white," it's against acting uncouth and ignorant. And if you roll into a job interview with untied shoes, your pants hanging off your ass, an untucked shirt bearing the image of Scarface, and you can't go one sentence without dutifully proving your illiteracy and lack of erudition, uncouth and ignorant is exactly what you are. I don't care how real you're keeping it.
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.
    Canada has no history of oppression or official racism against blacks, mainly just natives and Chinese railway workers. And Chinese people don't go around wearing stupidly baggy pants, speaking in godawful dialects and basically making doubly sure everyone knows they're Chinese to remind us that people who kind of look like them had to pay head taxes 150 years ago.

    Yes, clearly the Chinese-American community is not suffering in any way at all. Thank goodness for these well-behaved minorities! Without them, I'd lose trust in non-white people forever.

    whatifihadnofriendsshortenedsiggy2.jpg
  • Eric_the_Amazing_RedEric_the_Amazing_Red Registered User
    edited February 2008
    I live near Toronto so I have to put up with this kind of stuff every day. I'm not here to argue whether black-focused schools are good or not. What I am are to say is that this program won't go through because the Ontario Liberal government said they won't fund it and for damn sure the City of Toronto won't pay for it (if you read the upcoming budget proposal, you'll know why).

    Toronto politicians are fucked up. You have an idiot socialist mayor in David Miller who doesn't have a fucking clue how to run a city, childish council members who scrap with one another over who will sit in the front row in a Christmas photo (I kid you not, look it up) and crooked trustees who work for the same school board who voted in the focus-school proposals (hello Nunziata).

    Bottom line, Toronto is a shit hole and the people who run it don't know what the left hand is doing from the right (or however that expression goes).

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I live near Toronto so I have to put up with this kind of stuff every day. I'm not here to argue whether black-focused schools are good or not. What I am are to say is that this program won't go through because the Ontario Liberal government said they won't fund it and for damn sure the City of Toronto won't pay for it (if you read the upcoming budget proposal, you'll know why).

    Toronto politicians are fucked up. You have an idiot socialist mayor in David Miller who doesn't have a fucking clue how to run a city, childish council members who scrap with one another over who will sit in the front row in a Christmas photo (I kid you not, look it up) and crooked trustees who work for the same school board who voted in the focus-school proposals (hello Nunziata).

    Bottom line, Toronto is a shit hole and the people who run it don't know what the left hand is doing from the right (or however that expression goes).

    Your so unbiased it's beautiful.

  • Eric_the_Amazing_RedEric_the_Amazing_Red Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Can you tell I hate Toronto? Maybe I wasn't subtle enough :p

  • wawkinwawkin Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's blaming the victim at its worst. The implication is both that if only black people acted white they'd be treated fairly (which is pretty full of shit), and also that because they choose not to do so it's their fault when they're mistreated (also full of shit).

    First of all, you gotta realize that even in this statement you're assigning stereotypes to ethnic behavior. What is "acting white?" Well, judging from many terrible and lazy black comedians, it means you wear a tie, horn-rim glasses, eat mayonnaise sandwiches, and talk like Ward Cleaver with voice immodulation.

    The way it appears to mean within black culture, however, is being adverse to improper speaking patterns, wearing traditionally-cut clothing in a traditional manner, attempting to attain success in school or work, and keeping a steady job.

    If that's what black culture calls "acting white," then those who would espouse acting against it need to look around and look at what successful, professional people look like. There's no great professional stigma against "acting white," it's against acting uncouth and ignorant. And if you roll into a job interview with untied shoes, your pants hanging off your ass, an untucked shirt bearing the image of Scarface, and you can't go one sentence without dutifully proving your illiteracy and lack of erudition, uncouth and ignorant is exactly what you are. I don't care how real you're keeping it.
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.
    Canada has no history of oppression or official racism against blacks, mainly just natives and Chinese railway workers. And Chinese people don't go around wearing stupidly baggy pants, speaking in godawful dialects and basically making doubly sure everyone knows they're Chinese to remind us that people who kind of look like them had to pay head taxes 150 years ago.

    Yes, clearly the Chinese-American community is not suffering in any way at all. Thank goodness for these well-behaved minorities! Without them, I'd lose trust in non-white people forever.

    I chuckled.

    Talkin to the robbery expert.

    "This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.

    Blacks don't have the monopoly on a history of intolerance in America. Just ask the members of any of the native Indian tribes we decimated, the Irish, the Chinese, the Italians, the Jews, or the Polish.

    Yet everyone else realized long ago that tucking your shirt in and making good grades wasn't so much the road to ethnic cultural destruction as it was the best way to make it on your own.

    Yes, America did bad things to black people. How that justifies the condoning of a culture of victimhood and failure is beyond my logic.

  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    MrMister wrote: »
    So, I'm not sure that this particular school is making with the best ideas. However, I do think it's generally a good idea to consult with the scientists who study race and racism when determining curricula and school practices. For instance, I have one at my school, Claude Steele, who was responsible for getting the race question removed from the SAT, because he demonstrated that the act of asking about their race caused minority students to do worse on the subsequent test.

    He studies the phenomenon of stereotype threat, where calling attention to someone's race in and of itself can affect that person's performance. The same thing happens to white students, actually, if you mention before a test that Asian students happen to perform better on that particular assessment. I'm not up to recalling too many of the details, since I mostly heard about it second hand from someone who actually took the class, but in general that's the sort of valuable empirical research which has clear and important applications and which we should most definitely understand and make use of.

    The Pygmalion Effect isn't exactly what you're talking about, but it's very similar and extremely applicable to the situation.
    The Pygmalion effect, Rosenthal effect, or more commonly known as the "teacher-expectancy effect" refers to situations in which students perform better than other students simply because they are expected to do so. The Pygmalion effect requires a student to internalise the expectations of their superiors. It is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, and in this respect, students with poor expectations internalise their negative label, and those with positive labels succeed accordingly. Within sociology, the effect often cited with regards to education and social class.

    whatifihadnofriendsshortenedsiggy2.jpg
  • wawkinwawkin Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.

    Blacks don't have the monopoly on a history of intolerance in America. Just ask the members of any of the native Indian tribes we decimated, the Irish, the Chinese, the Italians, the Jews, or the Polish.

    Yet everyone else realized long ago that tucking your shirt in and making good grades wasn't so much the road to ethnic cultural destruction as it was the best way to make it on your own.

    Yes, America did bad things to black people. How that justifies the condoning of a culture of victimhood and failure is beyond my logic.

    No. Native indian tribes? Get the fuck out. You did not say that.

    Native Americans and Blacks are the only 2 groups you mentioned that didn't have a choice. The rest came of thir own volition. Thats all I wanted to say concerning your post.

    Talkin to the robbery expert.

    "This is where I say something profound and you bow, so lets just skip to your part."
  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Yeah...please read a history book sometime. There's a reason, especially in the US, why blacks have such an antipathy against "acting white" - because for a good portion of our history, a black person who "acted white" would wind up becoming "strange fruit".

    And if you don't understand what I just said, well...that's part of the problem.

    Blacks don't have the monopoly on a history of intolerance in America. Just ask the members of any of the native Indian tribes we decimated, the Irish, the Chinese, the Italians, the Jews, or the Polish.

    Yet everyone else realized long ago that tucking your shirt in and making good grades wasn't so much the road to ethnic cultural destruction as it was the best way to make it on your own.

    Yes, America did bad things to black people. How that justifies the condoning of a culture of victimhood and failure is beyond my logic.

    The italians, irish, and polish are invisible minorities, and within a few decades of their arriving in America they were welcomed into the arms of, well, "whiteness." Chinese immigrants not only come from a culture that values education (to an extreme), but represent only the hardest-working, most dedicated of those from China - after all, a ticket to the US is a costly, costly thing.

    Seriously. You're making some stupid assumptions.

    A) That all immigrant experiences are the same. Seriously, are you retarded? Comparing the experience of Chinese immigrants, which is an ongoing thing and has it's own unique history and travails, with the experience of Black immigrants, which has it's own unique but different history and travails, is like comparing apples and pomegranates. Sure, they're both fruits, with a few similarities, but there are also huge differences.

    B) Not all Black people behave in this way. Many Blacks are, as you say, tucking in their shirts and working hard, moving up the scale. The problem we're describing is a problem that is largely limited to inner-city, impoverished Blacks. The fact that you can't see this differentiation suggests to me that you haven't really spent enough time familiarizing yourself with the problem, or even the status of Black people in America.

    I mean, the fact that this problem exists is regrettable, but to say that Blacks are "condoning of a culture of victimhood and failure" is a disastrously uneducated view.

    Instead of simpling condemning the view, the question to ask is why does this exist - where does it come from? And from there, work towards solving the problem.

    whatifihadnofriendsshortenedsiggy2.jpg
  • AtomikaAtomika Hypercritical Queen Bitch of Cinema Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    The Pygmalion Effect isn't exactly what you're talking about, but it's very similar and extremely applicable to the situation.
    The Pygmalion effect, Rosenthal effect, or more commonly known as the "teacher-expectancy effect" refers to situations in which students perform better than other students simply because they are expected to do so. The Pygmalion effect requires a student to internalise the expectations of their superiors. It is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, and in this respect, students with poor expectations internalise their negative label, and those with positive labels succeed accordingly. Within sociology, the effect often cited with regards to education and social class.

    Not that I disagree with the theory, but how do you apply that pragmatically in an integrated school system without showing ethnic favoritism?

    Statistically, the students with the highest percentages of success are typically Asian or Middle Eastern. I wouldn't say that they aren't facing any ethnocentric hurdles that everyone else is. They gotta learn about lily-white Jules Verne and Beowulf just like everyone else, and those types of things certainly aren't in their greater cultural repertoire. At least with black kids, it's not like they're getting a different set of oral tradition due to their parents being 1st or 2nd generation Americans. They're born native speakers, into a collective national culture, and go to school right alongside all the white, hispanic, asian, and middle eastern kids. Ethnocentric bias, while it certainly and inarguably exists, isn't an excuse for failure on behalf of only one specific student group.

    Again, I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wondering aloud how any attempt at increasing the Pygmalion effect in a certain subgroup won't disenfranchise all the others. And in that, wouldn't any attempt at singling certain kids out for "increasing their internalized expectations" certainly devolve rather quickly in the body of peer opinion as "the class for retards?" That's the epitome of counter-productive.

  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited February 2008
    I have no idea on what the Afrocentric school will look like, but one easy way to apply the Pygmalion effect is that whereas teachers in majority white schools may be predisposed to expect their black students to be merely average, (and thus, according to the Pygmalion Theory, actually cause the black students to be average) this won't happen in a black-majority school.

    Another easy way is that while things like Jules Verne and Beowulf certainly don't harm white or black students, they don't - strictly speaking - help either. This is less important in well-off schools where students already have a stable family life and stable environment to grow up in. However, I can't say I blame these people for wanting to teach W.E.B. Dubois instead of Ethan Fucking Frome to impoverished black kids.

    whatifihadnofriendsshortenedsiggy2.jpg
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