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Really difficult work situation - am I doing the right thing?
SatanIsMyMotor
Fuck Warren EllisRegistered User regular
Fuck Warren EllisRegistered User regular
I'm having a stressful week due to some personal/work issues (it's never good when these clash). First off let me say that I've been extremely lucky and have managed to have a very successful working career at a young age. My boss has taken me under his wing as his protege and, so far, it's been a great experience for the most part. Our organization has three separate offices. When I started here I was at the bottom of the ladder. Flash forward 3 years and I am now the head of our Canadian arm. Despite having three offices we're a relatively small organization in terms of people. Personally I manage a staff of 6 but all in all there is around 15 of us in the company. This has resulted in a very close-knit group of people with a fairly loose corporate identity (ie: it's not a big deal here to tell the CEO to fuck off, etc.)
Earlier this week my grandmother had a stroke. She's very old and the doctors are telling us she could go at any time. Now, I'm supposed to be going to a trade show along with four of my colleagues so I made it a point to let my boss know that I may have to leave the show early in the event my grandmother passes (or perhaps show up late if it happens beforehand). In a very unexpected turn of events my boss has informed me that he expects me to be at the show regardless. When I told him that I would be attending the funeral despite his decision he told me I would be out of a job. I quickly explained to him that would be against labor law. He's a smart man and said that he is bound by the law so he won't fire me but it certainly "affects our business relationship".
I like my job a lot. I'll admit that travelling gets to me (I'm mildly agoraphobic) but I assure you I am not trying to manipulate the situation so I do not have to go - I plan on showing up regardless (hell, my grandmother may even hang on making this whole issue completely academic). However this whole situation (compounded by a few other things) has gotten to me and I'm now considering looking for a different job. The fact that my boss will "lose respect" for me if I attend my grans funeral really makes me lose all respect I have for him. Plus he said some things about my family that I found hurtful (ie: saying that this situation was their fault when really it is him that is being difficult).
Now, if I leave my position I strongly suspect that the whole Canadian operation will crumble and the CEO will liquidate this arm of the corporation leaving my employees with no jobs. Furthermore, I'm not 100% convinced that I will be able to find as nice a job as I have now, though it's certainly possible.
So what do I do here? Do I carry on as if nothing happened and hope my grandmother holds on until I'm back or do I follow my heart and do what I know is morally right? If I follow that path however I'll end up hurting these people here who I care for as well.
Am I crazy for throwing away a good job just for the peace of mind of knowing I paid my respects to my grandmother? Am I taking this too personally?
Earlier this week my grandmother had a stroke. She's very old and the doctors are telling us she could go at any time. Now, I'm supposed to be going to a trade show along with four of my colleagues so I made it a point to let my boss know that I may have to leave the show early in the event my grandmother passes (or perhaps show up late if it happens beforehand). In a very unexpected turn of events my boss has informed me that he expects me to be at the show regardless. When I told him that I would be attending the funeral despite his decision he told me I would be out of a job. I quickly explained to him that would be against labor law. He's a smart man and said that he is bound by the law so he won't fire me but it certainly "affects our business relationship".
I like my job a lot. I'll admit that travelling gets to me (I'm mildly agoraphobic) but I assure you I am not trying to manipulate the situation so I do not have to go - I plan on showing up regardless (hell, my grandmother may even hang on making this whole issue completely academic). However this whole situation (compounded by a few other things) has gotten to me and I'm now considering looking for a different job. The fact that my boss will "lose respect" for me if I attend my grans funeral really makes me lose all respect I have for him. Plus he said some things about my family that I found hurtful (ie: saying that this situation was their fault when really it is him that is being difficult).
Now, if I leave my position I strongly suspect that the whole Canadian operation will crumble and the CEO will liquidate this arm of the corporation leaving my employees with no jobs. Furthermore, I'm not 100% convinced that I will be able to find as nice a job as I have now, though it's certainly possible.
So what do I do here? Do I carry on as if nothing happened and hope my grandmother holds on until I'm back or do I follow my heart and do what I know is morally right? If I follow that path however I'll end up hurting these people here who I care for as well.
Am I crazy for throwing away a good job just for the peace of mind of knowing I paid my respects to my grandmother? Am I taking this too personally?
SatanIsMyMotor on
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I don't recommend outright quitting, as I assume you have bills to pay and whatnot, but I'd get clear of that company as soon as you can. Regarding their Canadian operations collapsing without you, well, that's tough shit for them. If your company can't treat you with the bare minimum of human respect, then any problems they encounter when you leave can be placed purely on their shoulders and not yours.
Seriously, I appreciate the response.
water spirals the wrong way out the sink
I think you were being totally reasonable and accomodating. In fact, it would have been reasonable for you to say "My grandmother had a stroke. I need to go be with her because she could go at any time. I'm not sure when I'll be back." Your boss should be grateful that you didn't go that route. The fact that he was upset when you are still going to attend this tradeshow and only leave if your grandmother passes boggles the mind.
It doesn't sound to me like a standard business situation. The fact that you were recruited young, that you've done so well (no offense), and this reaction to something in your personal life sounds more like a family business thing. Does you boss know your family? Did you have a non-professional relationship before you got this job (is he a friend of the family or a relative or something)? I've seen families behave this way, but not businesses. I could have been lucky though. When my grandfather, who I hadn't been close to for some years, was dying of lung cancer the company I worked for let me go no questions asked. I was gone for weeks, doing the hospice thing and then the funeral and whatnot. They even sent flowers.
I echo the idea that it might be time to look for other employment, but I understand that is easier said than done. I've got a great job now, and if they put me in a similar situation I don't know if I'd quit. I'd be very, very angry and disappointed, but this is a good job. However, part of why this job is good is that I don't think they would do something like that to me.
Good luck.
The base salary is modest at 40k but my commissions boost my salary by almost double. I'm 25, an arts major, and yet somehow ended up with a game industry career on the business side of things.
My boss doesn't know my family from a hole in the wall but you are 100% right that this is like a family business.
I have also seen my company cancel a salesman's family vacation with less than a weeks notice due to a trade show, so they are important to some companies.
Personally, I don't think you were out of line, assuming there are other people from the company that will be at the trade show, which I think you mentioned. I could understand your boss' point of view more if you were the only one that was going to be there, since then you'd be leaving the trade show unstaffed.
As to advice, you really have to judge how this changes your work environment. Your boss could be under stress and this could be a one time thing that passes. But, it could signal a change in the work environment. If you're the head of a branch of the company he could be expecting you to treat the company as your primary concern. Many executives are expected to put the company before their own private lives. If that's the case, it's possible that's not what you're interested in at this point in your career. And in that case you should probably look for a different position.
It's really up to you, but I wouldn't let one isolated incident sour you on an otherwise good position. But, if it turns into a trend and you don't like it, then I say get out. No amount of money is worth your happiness, and you're young enough to start over with very little downside.
Your boss is being a little brash about it, but if he's expecting you to be there, in a lot of ways it's no different than, say, having a big project due on Friday and working overtime to get it done and perfect, even if your kid's having a dance recital on Thursday.
Since neither of you are wrong, it also means that you can do with the situation what you will. You can bring it up with your boss again, stating that you will be at the trade show but you may miss part of it IF she passes, because your grandmother is very important to you and you would hate yourself if you missed it. Or you can just stick with what you said and see what happens. Or you can work it and remind him next time something important comes up that you worked the trade show even when your grandma died.
Taking a stand and quitting in defiance is probably not the smartest move, simply because it's probably overreacting. I'd suggest talking to him again, and say that the possibility is slim but that it's extremely important to you.
Um, I'm not sure how it is in Canada, but I'm pretty certain in the UK an employer can't deny a employee compassionate leave. Even if they can, fuck any boss that would. Seriously.
I'd disagree completely, but then I expect a certain degree of respect from my employer. Like, respect for the fact that I may need time to grieve if a family member passed away. I wouldn't necessarily say that SatanIsMyMotor should hand his notice in tomorrow, but I'd certainly strongly advise him to start looking for a new job now if he doesn't like the way his boss has handled this situation.
If you two had a close relationship, I think you should explain to your boss, again, that this is very important to you and your family and you need to take care of this and will be at the trade show as much as possible.
If you and your grandmother we're not very close, it may be best to keep going to the tradeshow and keep your relationship with this guy very positive. You make a -lot- of money, a good deal more than you would make anywhere else.
This is a really tough choice that is going to depend on you and your family and your own values. I personally don't think funerals are very important, and will most likely not have one for myself and would not attend someone's funeral if I had something business important related to do.
Depends on the leave options available. Many places in the US offer vacation only, so if you get sick you use your vacation days. They're all just "personal time off." Same goes for something like a funeral or similar, it gets lumped in.
Canada is more like the US in vacation practices than Europe, but it's still job specific. I have tons of sick days and quite a few vacation days at my job, despite being in the US.
The employer also probably expects some respect from their employees. Which is why my recommendation is to talk to the boss again and try to clear up the problem, before it happens. We don't know the details of what's happening at this trade show, but look at it from the boss's POV -- he trains this guy, takes him under his wing, and expects him to work this trade show and do whatever it is he's supposed to do there well. He may have a lot riding on it, or is using this as a test to see if he's made the right decision for taking this guy under his wing. And now that guy wants to not go.
Now if the trade show is just for the OP to go, talk to some guys, see some exhibits, then yeah it's an overreaction. If he's manning a booth, that's bigger, and if he's planning on talking to clients/competitors it's an even bigger deal.
One of the deals that goes along with more corporate responsibility is, well, more responsibility to that corporation. And sometimes the boss will expect you to put the job above your family. It's not "right or wrong," it's a personal decision. The OP makes the point that this is rather out of the ordinary, which makes it sound like the boss is not generally a hardass.
I'm not arguing for the OP to abandon his family and devote his entire life to his job, but it's not a clearcut decision. It's hardly "Boss is an asshole and always makes unrealistic demands." The OP has a legitimate excuse, and losing a family member always sucks, but death is rarely timely and sometimes you can't let it interrupt your life. It'd be nice if everyone could always grieve and take the appropriate time off, but not all jobs or positions allow for that. Heck, I live far enough from my family that seeing a relative's funeral would be quite a financial burden, so even if I *wanted* to go I may not be able to.
Perhaps even just showing to your grandmother in state before the service would be enough for your familial obligations, and still allow you to perform the duties of your work.
Raven said, "Good start".
There are probably a lot of details that we do not know about going on to influence his decision about saying what he did to you, but as far as I know, most companies will say they care about your family, but what they really mean is they care about your family as long as you get the job done and help the company. Meaning as long as family doesn't get in the way.
Whether they say it or not, most to all companies, when you have a level of responsibility you are stating you have, will react with the same intention, not necessarily as blunt. When you signed on for the position to lead a group for a country, you have a certain level of responsibility that others expect of you, right or wrong. Part of it is to make sure you do what the company needs you to do whether that be move to a different location, state or country on a moment's notice or say your respects to a loved one a day later.
I'm not saying this is right, but this is what I've seen that others come to expect someone in your level of responsibility.
If you plan on finding a job with similar responsibilities, do not expect them to treat you much differently under the same circumstances. I would assume most companies would treat you as this guy has, the difference is, they'd respect you less and potentially try to get you fired without telling you as this guy has done.
That's a pretty dismal outlook at potential employment. I have yet to have an employer threaten me with firing for leaving for a familial matter and the one relative of mine that I was close to that has died passed away while I was at school. So the notion that most if not all companies want to basically own your soul is out and out false.
In fact, your the first person I've ever heard say that. I don't know anyone that was ever denied leave to attend a funeral.
OP, take into account the fact that your relationship with your boss has already changed now, regardless of what you do. You now know that he expects you to put him before your family and he knows that you're probably not going to, even if you do attend this trade show. Also, making lots of money is great, but now that this attitude of his has been established, how much of your personal life are you going to sacrifice to keep making that money?
Decide what you want more, I guess, but there's lots of jobs out there, lots of good ones, so don't be afraid to get out. Especially with the experience you have now.
The key here is that he has a lot of responsibility according to his first post. Nobody can or will deny you leave unless they enjoy facing a lawsuit. However, that doesn't change the fact that leading a department or some such in a potentially high risk deal at a trade show or something the company absolutely needs is something you shouldn't consider skipping unless a reason actually had occured to make you do so. That kind of stress and importance comes with the responsibility you signed on for.
I wouldn't suggest saying anything more to this person unless you actually lose a family member and the plans occur over the weekend you are at this trade show or whatever the timing happens to be. A possibility is that he overreacted because you told him you might not be going up front, rather than just waiting to see if this is even an issue and then telling him you cannot attend or have to leave early because of something that actually happened.
The harsh comment would be: You brought unnecessary 'drama' per se into the conversation. Warning your employer about the circumstances that your grandmother is very ill and unsure how much longer she will last is enough to let him know things in the immediate or near future may have to change on short notice.
The nicer comment would be: I'd suggest not doing anything further at this point unless your grandmother passes away. Make the arrangements and don't think about work. When everything is said and done, your obligation is where you want it to be, which is your family. Then you find out whether or not you can make all or even some of this trade show.
EDIT: I'm not here to tell you that companies or corporations own you and expect you to be a corporate whore. I'm informing you on how many people higher up are regarded in situations like this. I've seen vice presidents and presidents in situations similar to this make calls both ways and the company does have the option to deem you unfit to do your job and send you to a different position or area if they feel you don't have what it takes to handle the high level of responsibilities given to you.
If I've not been clear, then I apologize. If things take a turn for the worst and dates get set during this trade show, you should do what you want to do. It's possible your company will re-consider whether or not you are able to handle the amount of responsibility under any number of reasons, like maybe this trade show is where you work with 50% of your customers or it is the biggest or only one you will attend each year. That would happen at any company, whether it is right or wrong.
You know, If my employer did that, I would probably quit immediately out of sheer fucking rage. Seems like you haven't done that. Kudos to you! It's probably a stupid thing to do.
Would having another attempt at the discussion help? You can lay out your position again and see if your manager budges. Perhaps be pro-active and see if anyone else in your branch/arm can cover you if you need to be away and present this as a stop-gap if you have to leave.
Even if nothing happens back home until after the show, it's pretty clear that your boss thinks of you as a dollar bills first, human being second, so I'd start job hunting. And when you get the first good offer I'd get the hell out of there, fast, and let your boss know exactly why you're not sticking around.
This is pretty clearly a case of 'jacked up boss' to me. This is one of the exact reasons we have the labor laws we do in the US. If your boss is able to threaten your job everytime you need to deal with a family issue, your essential a slave to him. And this isn't just a 'family issue' - this is (potentially) the death of a family member.
Completely wrong of him to do. Local Trade show or multi-billion dollar deal - he's wrong to do this.
XFIRE:redspo0n (Yep, Zero in there) XBL: Pinkspo0n
Starmanbrand, Jacob Marley would like a word with you.
OP, I can only echo what others have already said. This is how shit starts. Do you intend on having a family one day? Will you be able to work on personally important days? Because right now he expects you to miss your grandmothers birthday, next he will be telling you its the birth of your first born, or your job.
I tell every employer I interview with -during- the interview that I work to live and not live to work. I tell them that as long as I am treated well that I will bust my ass for them but if something comes up in my life that takes precedence that I -will- take time off. I have not been offered a lot of jobs as of late, but I would rather they know my expectations up front so we can save ourselves some headache in the future.
Wii 'friend' code 7830 7201 1535 9366
What kind of asshole boss expects you to put ANY work related shit above the death of a family member?
Damn, when my father died my old employer extracted me from a fucking warzone in the middle of an operation and replaced me, put me on the first plane home and pretty much said "Let us know when you are ready to come back". That was the treatment from a company that were considered mercenaries.
When they are more compassionate than your boss, you have to question maintaining any association with him or the company he represents. There are plenty of opportunities for other jobs, but your grandmothers funeral is something you don't get a second chance to attend.
This is why you really, really, should not take legal advice from strangers on forums. I can not stress enough just how wrong this statement of the law is. There isn't a single state in the US where this would be an accurate statement of the law. If you need to know what the law is in your area, hit a library or hire a lawyer.
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Oh, but the part about the boss being jacked up. That part is still right on.
That's actually what I was told by my lawyer in talks with him about my situation with Walmart. They can't legally threaten you with termination for requesting time off to see to a family death - and once threatened, even if it's retracted, the threat has been made. The protection of your rights to see to your family without repercussions by your employer also include that you aren't threatened with your continued employment to get their way in a potentially illegal act.
He could be wrong, but it seems unlikely. I dunno. Ulitmately I don't care because I decided it wasn't worth my effort (read: Money) to persue the situation anyway.
That said - I whole-heartedly support not following legal advice from the internet without propper consultation with a real professional :P
XFIRE:redspo0n (Yep, Zero in there) XBL: Pinkspo0n
This is true, but the OP isn't in the military. I imagine that when someone enlists, they know that is a distinct possibility, I don't know, I've never enlisted.
The truth of the matter is that all the OP did was let his boss know that he might have to miss some time, and as the OP put it, would not amount to much anyway.
Anywho, I stood my ground and in the end it worked, sort of. My boss called me back and told me he wouldn't hold any of this against me (granted this was after I had informed him that legally he can't release me over it - which is true in my province). The only catch is that if it happens while I'm down there I'll be flying back on my own dime.
All in all, I'm going to hang on to my job but, as other people have said, I now know my bosses true colors. I'm going to passively begin looking for other employment, but I'll likely only leave if the job is perfect.
Thanks a lot folks. Much appreciated.