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USAF planes to be built by the FRENCH???

2

Posts

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    We'll start using our own engineers just as soon as our public schools stop sucking.

    We could make them better, but then God would be angry. Good schools teach evolution.
    [/irrelevant but still pisses me off]

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  • powersurgepowersurge Registered User
    edited March 2008
    I don't have much to add to this other than yay for Mobile, AL :P

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Fully agree with Shinto on this one - for a thread made on a mainly American board it doesn't really seem anti French at all (or German/Spanish) - in fact I'm starting to think you guys have all gone soft!

    So far as Airbus goes - if they can sort their management worries out, ride out the issues with the US dollar and rationalise their manufacturing without pissing off unions/owner countries too much then they will be in a good place. Sure the A380 hasn't been quite the instant success they had hoped for but end of the day, they will have a large airframe under their control in a world where there are many large airport hubs that subsist on very large airplane traffic.

    Think of it from a passenger pov as well - if you are doing the Europe - East Asia trip are you going to prefer an airline using the A380 where you have a much greater chance of roomy seats (at least for a few years till they all get cheap again) or the 747 where most airlines have long since squeezed all the potential seats out of it?

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The thing is tho, if the US actually bows to pressure it almost means that Boeing has a lock on any large plane manufacture for the US military, right? Which could have negative effects in future procurement.
    You're forgetting Lockheed Martin and other US aerospace companies. If Boeing does bring the politicians around, it won't give them a meaningful lock on future contracts--it'll just provide a precedent for awarding them preferentially to an American company, not necessarily Boeing.

    According to my limited understanding of the industry, that would still be a mistake.

    There really aren't any big-name players in aerospace outside of the US. Airbus is about it, and it's getting its ass kicked over the A300 trainwreck.

    Not true.
    BAE, EADS (of which, admittedly, Airbus is a division), and Mikoyan are all major players.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    and of course there is China - they have an oft expressed desire to build a national competitor to Airbus or Boeing - and they have the financial/industrial potential plus bloody minded nationalism to do so.

    Russia has also recently reorganised it's aeropsace industry in order to make it more competitive to Western companies, but then I think they probably are more strong in small/medium sized planes rather than 747 wannabes.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • CycloneRangerCycloneRanger Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Derrick wrote: »
    I think this is unfortunate but not in the way people are casing the issue. The real sadness is that the American airplane industry is subpar in comparison. If they want the contracts, they're just going to have to be the best. Long term I see this as a good thing for our boys in uniform.
    You're jumping to conclusions a bit much here. The American aerospace industry is probably the finest in the world. Airplanes are one of the few things we still manufacture and sell to other nations; as I recall the aerospace sector constitutes our largest positive trade balance. In the vast majority of cases, we're selling airplanes to the rest of the world, and only occasionally buying them. That Boeing happened not to create the best design (actually, happened not to create the design that the higher-ups preferred) isn't new, and nor is it indicative of any general "subpar" status in Boeing or the industry.

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  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The only legitimate reason to want military hardware built by the country using it would be Supply issues (namely the supplying country going hostile, Ref Iran's US made aircraft). However, France isn't really known for it's "let's attack america!" bent.

    Beyond that, complaining about this casts politicians in a funny light when you look at it.

    Protect our jorbs! = You want US troops to use sub par equipment.

    Protect our troops! = You want US workers to lose jobs overseas.

    I can't see making a stink out of this publicly, either way you go on it you stand to lose out Big in the stupid rhetoric department.

  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    12gauge wrote: »
    Kalkino wrote: »
    The thing is tho, if the US actually bows to pressure it almost means that Boeing has a lock on any large plane manufacture for the US military, right? Which could have negative effects in future procurement.
    You're forgetting Lockheed Martin and other US aerospace companies. If Boeing does bring the politicians around, it won't give them a meaningful lock on future contracts--it'll just provide a precedent for awarding them preferentially to an American company, not necessarily Boeing.

    According to my limited understanding of the industry, that would still be a mistake.

    There really aren't any big-name players in aerospace outside of the US. Airbus is about it, and it's getting its ass kicked over the A300 trainwreck.

    I think all of you are talking about the A380, not the A300 which was the first design by Airbus. Second, the company is not getting its ass kicked over it, actually the books are filled with contracts, but because of the current bickering between Germany and France on who gets to produce which part of the plane the costs of making the plane do not leave a large enough margin - thus the whole company is needs to lay off jobs to get more efficient which is in turn hindered by politicians on both sides of the Rhine to avoid losing jobs in their country.
    Yeah, the 380, my mistake. Either way, they've already lost the single largest airline in the world to Boeing (FedEx), and to add insult to injury Fred Smith then public chewed Airbus's ass. The plane was supposed to be in production something like two years ago and they couldn't even provide the technical documentation necessary to set up simulation for training purposes then. The wide-body market will be almost solely Boeing's pretty soon, because there is no competition besides Airbus, and Airbus is mired in bureaucratic bullshit that neither side seems to care about actually resolving.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2008
    All things equal, I'd generally prefer government-funded contracts be given to domestic companies. But that's if all things are actually equal. Here, it sounds like Airbus is the better contractor, and so they should get the contract. The only problem I'd have is if we were outsourcing this stuff to, like, North Korea.

    Also, if it's true that the whole contract was just a pork-gift to Washington to begin with, then them losing the contract to France is pretty delicious.

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  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Well Boeing is a huge company with the ears of many people in Congress. They're going to do whatever it takes to protect their interests, and starting a flag-waving campaign is the easiest and most effective. I know Northrop is going to build parts of it, but I have yet to see a real breakdown of how and where the planes will be built and assembled. To be honest I'd bet this wouldn't even be a thing if it weren't the French. :|

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.

  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.

    I don't dislike them at all. There wouldn't be a United States of America without them.

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  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.
    It's really mostly a joke at this point, at least in my part of the country.

    Though my Canadian roommate does honestly hate them, so I dunno.

  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9800E7D71239F933A25755C0A9659C8B63

    That's what I can find on the initial deal that was such a stink ages ago. Basically it was a bullshit deal for the USAF by any accounting standards, and some people tried to call them on it.

  • SavantSavant Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    kildy wrote: »
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9800E7D71239F933A25755C0A9659C8B63

    That's what I can find on the initial deal that was such a stink ages ago. Basically it was a bullshit deal for the USAF by any accounting standards, and some people tried to call them on it.

    I think it turned out that someone near the CEO of Boeing was in bed with a higher up in the military (I think literally...), and it was corrupt as all get out. I believe the people responsible have since been canned.

    As for hating on the French, that's all in good fun. I mean, with both Boeing and Airbus plane parts are made from all sorts of different places in the world. The WA powers at be are just pissed because Boeing is in our backyard.

  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.

    Parisians are pretty big assholes in my experience (well back in 2004 at least), aside from that there isn't anything wrong with the country.

  • AdrienAdrien Registered User
    edited March 2008
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.

    Parisians are pretty big assholes in my experience (well back in 2004 at least), aside from that there isn't anything wrong with the country.

    But in fairness, it's not like New Yorkers are an international symbol of friendliness.

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  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Malkor wrote: »
    To be honest I'd bet this wouldn't even be a thing if it weren't the French. :|

    Or, at least, Boeing wouldn't have as easy a time with the ad copy. Nobody complains that the gun barrels for our tanks are made by a German company.

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  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I found Paris quite friendly. I don't speak a bean of French, well, aside from "parle vous Anglais?" and aside from feeling like a mild jerk (like I do in any country I can't speak the language - which is everything outside the 'sphere) I didn't have a bad time. All the French people I spoke to were friendly enough and tried to help me, so far as their abilities allowed.

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • CycophantCycophant Registered User
    edited March 2008
    It's strange that this is really only occurring for this contract. I work in the helicopter industry and Eurocopter has been steadily edging out every American helicopter company (Bell, MD, etc.) pretty much across the board for years now. This includes governmental stuff like mil contracts (like the UH-72), air ambulance, law enforcement...pretty much everywhere. And yet I've never heard a pip from the public about it. I guess maybe because it happened more gradually, perhaps.

    It's interesting too - up here in Canada we've had similar issues like this (at least, we used to - I don't know if it's as bad any longer). Except it was usually based around language, rather than nationality. Rumors abounded over military contracts always going to Quebec-based companies purely to "appease the French", and stuff like that. I imagine it had more to do with the stereotypical French vs English sentiment we have up here, similar to this Airbus/Boeing having more to do with unreasonable nationalism.

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  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2008
    Boeing screwed the pooch. Between that and the Lockheed-Martin spying thing, Boeing's paid through the nose for it, too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing#Unethical_conduct

  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited March 2008
    You've got it all wrong guys, apparently this a big coup for the British! Apparently.
    Thousands of British aviation jobs are to be safeguarded over the next 15 years by a £20bn contract from the US Air Force, Airbus owner EADS has said. European group EADS and the US's Northrop Grumman are to build a fleet of 179 in-flight refuelling aircraft.

    Business Secretary John Hutton said: "This is a welcome vote of confidence in Britain's highly competitive aerospace industry and is recognition of the world-class skills and commitment shown by our aerospace workers." Howard Wheeldon, a defence industry analyst with BGC Partners, said the contract was the largest single order ever placed by a US buyer for a European product.

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  • L|amaL|ama Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.

    This is a pretty good reason for all of New Zealand. I also picked up a lot from my Canadian grandfather missing out on graduating high school because he failed French.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I'm hoping Boeing wins, if only because I'd rather see those jobs coming to Washington than fucking Alabama.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    L|ama wrote: »
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.

    This is a pretty good reason for all of New Zealand. I also picked up a lot from my Canadian grandfather missing out on graduating high school because he failed French.


    Yeah we hate the French for that. That and the nuclear testing that was sort of near us. By sort of I mean several thousand kilometres away - but fuck that is closer than most other things so there

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • MaverikkMaverikk Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Coming from the flightline side of the USAF, and working on these planes, I can tell you one thing: I don't pride myself on where these planes come from. In fact, a lot of the planes I operate fail, miserably, constantly, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of them literally go to the bone yard (it's a mile away from our squadron). The sad thing is that some of the planes I work on might, at some point, have been used in Vietnam, so these things are very, very enriched with American history.

    However, they do not suite our current mission, and up until recently, have hindered our ability to perform. Nothing, and I mean nothing pisses me off more about the AF than throwing needless pride into the mix when you can get a job done efficient and quick, because that one second you procrastinate maybe that one second you fail to save a life.

    To that, I'm a little offset that the French will be building for us. I can tell you right now, I have no love for them, at all, but if they make a good product, and one that serves us well for years, I have no problem with that.

    Unfortunately, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen half-assed ideas like this go astray in the AF.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I can't help but think though that if you're working on the planes to fix them, you're only ever going to see them when they're broken.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • DadouwDadouw Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I feel concerned about this thread

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited March 2008
    L|ama wrote: »
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.
    This is a pretty good reason for all of New Zealand. I also picked up a lot from my Canadian grandfather missing out on graduating high school because he failed French.
    Heh, the Americans (to be fair, only a certain "special" kind) hate the French because they're not aggressive enough.

    New Zealand hates the French because they're too aggressive.

    Poor guys can't win either way.

    Anyway, to be on topic - the only question should be the best product for the money. Defence contracts necessitate throwing in the extra clause that the supplier be politically reliable/secure/etc. I think France easily meets both . . . I think.

  • redxredx East Bumblefuck, PARegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I can't help but think though that if you're working on the planes to fix them, you're only ever going to see them when they're broken.
    they tend to get regular service so people don't die when they break.

    He probably sees more stuff in the process of breaking than actually broken, and sees plenty of not broken stuff as well. I assume it is more issues of parts needing to be replaced very frequently.

    or my understanding of how airplanes are operated is totally off.


    I think there is something to the americans not liking the frence, because we can get away with it. Can't really make fun of minorities outloud anymore, so let's keep kicking the frence because sometimes they have a diffrent political opinion and that's a convenient excuse.

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  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Yeah, we should have like, a mixer or something.

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  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I'm hoping Boeing wins, if only because I'd rather see those jobs coming to Washington than fucking Alabama.

    :v:

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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    The American hatred of the French is an old thing, with Mark Twain, among other things, saying and writing:
    A French married lady cannot enter even a menagerie without bringing the purity of that menagerie under suspicion.
    The objects of which Paris folks are fond--literature, art, medicine and adultery.
    France has neither winter nor summer nor morals--apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country.
    France has usually been governed by prostitutes.
    A Frenchman's home is where another man's wife is.
    In Paris they just simply opened their eyes and stared when we spoke to them in French! We never did succeed in making those idiots understand their own language.
    There is nothing lower than the human race except the French.
    French are the connecting link between man & the monkey.
    Trivial Americans go to Paris when they die.
    Let us say all bad Americans go to Paris when they die. No, let us not say it for this adds a new horror to Immortality.
    An isolated & helpless young girl is perfectly safe from insult by a Frenchman, if he is dead.

    And, just for good measure
    A dead Frenchman has many good qualities, many things to recommend him; many attractions--even innocencies. Why cannot we have more of these?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • MaverikkMaverikk Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I can't help but think though that if you're working on the planes to fix them, you're only ever going to see them when they're broken.

    We're not like our civilian counter-parts, thank deity, where we only service and only know a fleet of aircrafts. I've seen those people work, and they're the most miserable lot I've ever seen.

    We only have seven aircrafts on the line, and we only do two sorties, or two flights per day, so there is a lot of downtime, and I know each aircraft thoroughly. They all look the same, they're all uniform, but they each have their own little quirks, and that's a given considering how much I time I spend around them.

    To that, we have a DCC, ADCC program, where we essentially get assigned to one plane (our names get put on the side, as well, and I'm a ADCC, personally). We do more than make sure it's operational; we customize it, and give it crew perks. We can put in new seats, as opposed to old ones that are falling part, or we can add a new plotter's table, because the old one is missing hardware. These are all things that don't "break" the aircraft on the line, or make it incapable of flying.

    The pride issues I referred to earlier was that some of our planes, or at least one, came down with a nasty fuel leak. No one had the knowledge to fix it, not even the fuel cell shop. 90% of the shop wanted the plane gone, and in the end, it hurt our man power and our very limited budget. That thing could have saved a thousand lives in it's day, but frankly, it's not my plane, and at the moment, it's a burden to the mission, and the squadron.
    they tend to get regular service so people don't die when they break.

    He probably sees more stuff in the process of breaking than actually broken, and sees plenty of not broken stuff as well. I assume it is more issues of parts needing to be replaced very frequently.

    or my understanding of how airplanes are operated is totally off.

    Most parts aren't required, like screws and bolts, and we have lots of those.

    However, yes, the first thing that happens when a plane comes down is that we chalk it, and then do inspections on it. I've never seen a plane just literally break apart, as many would imagine. We tend to fix problems before, they in fact, become problems.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Maverikk I'd just like to say your job sounds totally awesome.

    Dis' wrote: »
    Cancer is when cells stop letting the body mooch off their hard work - clearly a community of like-minded cells should isolate themselves and do the best job each can do, even if the rest of the body collapses!
  • L|amaL|ama Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    L|ama wrote: »
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.
    This is a pretty good reason for all of New Zealand. I also picked up a lot from my Canadian grandfather missing out on graduating high school because he failed French.
    Heh, the Americans (to be fair, only a certain "special" kind) hate the French because they're not aggressive enough.

    New Zealand hates the French because they're too aggressive.

    Poor guys can't win either way.

    Well I suppose everyone is more aggressive than New Zealand, and America is definitely up there on the aggression scale.

  • BobTrokeyBobTrokey Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    I don't post here often, but this thread got my attention and this morning I saw this:
    Spoiler:
    .

    So, the original article is bullshit, and the things are being built in Alabama.

  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Gooey wrote: »

    So yeah, I hear one of those crashed recently.

    PROOF OF DESIGN FLAWS LOL OMG.

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  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    12gauge wrote: »
    I think all of you are talking about the A380, not the A300 which was the first design by Airbus. Second, the company is not getting its ass kicked over it, actually the books are filled with contracts, but because of the current bickering between Germany and France on who gets to produce which part of the plane the costs of making the plane do not leave a large enough margin - thus the whole company is needs to lay off jobs to get more efficient which is in turn hindered by politicians on both sides of the Rhine to avoid losing jobs in their country.
    Wow, Germany and France arguing. Who would have thought? Maybe they should make one big plant in Alsace-Lorraine and then they can share custody every 50-75 years.
    Titmouse wrote: »
    Why the hell do people still dislike the French? I thought that bullshit was over a while ago.
    It's one of the longest running jokes in history... at least since the Carolingians. There are superiority complexes, assumptions of cultural protectionism, and all sorts of other stuff going on since Rome fell and the Franks took over.

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