Monitor hunt

Henroid

Well, I haven't bought a monitor for my computer in many, many years. And I mean from the store. This one I have now I bought from a friend when he got a new one. Anyhow.

I'm seeing a trend. Everything seems to be widescreen. I used to find the concept of widescreen monitors annoying (don't ask; I guess I like squares) but I need to adjust I suppose.

In looking up monitors to buy I'm seeing things that I don't know anything about. Two things, specifically. First is the response time (usually I see 2ms or 5ms). I have no idea what this means, and was hoping to get educated on it.

The other thing is the contrast ratio. I don't know what 1000:1 means, nor do I know if it is good or bad.

I remember some years ago LCD being slammed as terrible monitors for gamers, but I have the impression that is no longer an issue.

So can anyone help me out to learn that stuff? And maybe toss me some suggestions toward brands or specific models? I've already gotten a lot of recommendations for Samsung from another forum.

gneGne

Well, don't go after the specifications they put on the monitors since they don't really give a good estimation (especially contrast ratio).

What are you going to use the monitor for?

Henroid

gneGne wrote: »

Well, don't go after the specifications they put on the monitors since they don't really give a good estimation (especially contrast ratio).

What are you going to use the monitor for?

My compy is used for gaming, if that's what you're wondering. I mean, I do other stuff too, but I imagine gaming pretty much marks requirements in the moderate range.

Soulburner

I'm upgrading to an LCD for the first time myself and have been doing research on them.

The response time is how fast the screen updates, and if it's too slow you could get ghosting problems because whatever your playing will be moving faster than the screen can update the picture. That being said, my friend has a monitor with a 15ms response time and he plays UT with a high fucking sensitivity no problems, so I doubt you have to worry whether it's 5ms or 2ms.

Contrast ratio is just how fucking crazy the contrast is. It's more of a personal preference thing I say. Almost any stores that sell LCDs will have some 3000:1 and 1000:1 monitors on display (I've even seen 5000:1, which is WAY too fucking much). Just go look at them and see what you like more.

Another thing is the type of panel the LCD uses, which can make a big difference in quality for anyone used to a CRT. Here's a link I found explaining them: http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/lcd-panel-types.php

LCD Panel Technology Explained


There are many different panel technologies used in the production of LCD monitors. They range from budget TN panels to expensive, professional quality S-IPS and S-PVA panels. The average consumer usually has no idea what panel technology is used in their LCD. In fact, many power users are also unaware, simply because the panel type is rarely listed by the manufacturer in the monitor specifications. Many users buy monitors based on price and size. Price should be a factor, but you should still know the advantages and disadvantages of the different LCD panel types and be able to identify them before you decide which LCD to purchase.


S-IPS Panel Technology

S-IPS panels are generally considered the best overall LCD technology for image quality, color accuracy and viewing angles, but this comes at a price. They are well suited for graphics design and other applications which require accurate and consistent color reproduction. S-IPS panels offer the best viewing angles of any current LCD technology, with wide viewing angles up to 178 degress. VA panels can also have specs as high as 178 degress, but many suffer from a loss of contrast around 165-170 degrees. The response time of S-IPS is adequate, ranging from 6ms to 16ms with current panels. This is only slightly slower than TN panels. However, gamers should take this into consideration. Fast paced games may suffer from motion blur or ghosting with S-IPS panels that have a response time higher than 8ms. S-IPS panels can be identified buy a slight purple hue on blacks when viewed from a wide angle. There are currently few manufacturers using S-IPS panels in comparison to the other panels types making choices limited and they often carry a premium price tag. Two of the most popular widescreen S-IPS monitors are the NEC 20WMGX2 and Dell 2007WFP. The NEC 20WMGX2 monitor uses an AS-IPS panel (basically a custom S-IPS panel made specifically for NEC), has a 6ms response time, glossy coating and includes a TV tuner and speaker bar. The price of the 20WMGX2 ranges from $500-$600. The Dell 2007WFP is much more affordable at around $350, but you are not guranteed an S-IPS panel and it has less features. Unfortunately Dell uses two panel types in this monitor. S-IPS and S-PVA. It is a completely random process so there is no way to know which panel you will receive. However, due to the much lower price of the 2007WFP many are willing to take the risk for a cheap widescreen S-IPS panel.

VA Panel Technology

S-PVA and MVA panels are middle of the road panels. They offer better color reproduction and wider viewing angles than TN panels, but have slower response times. They are very similar to S-IPS on paper. They also offer large viewing angles and good color reproduction, though not as good as S-IPS. The response times are generally worse than TN or S-IPS panels and there have been reports of a few monitors with VA panels that suffer from input lag, so they may not be the best choice for gaming. S-PVA has the advantage of higher contrast ratios than the other panel types which leads to better black levels. The biggest disadvantage of S-PVA panels is color shifting. Color shifting is when the image from one angle changes or "shifts" when viewed from another angle. This bothers many users to the point they will not even consider buying an S-PVA panel, while others don't even notice the color shifts. Color shifts also cause a loss of shadow detail in dark scenes when viewed directly from the center. Prices on S-PVA panels are around the same or slightly cheaper than S-IPS panels, but they are much easier to find as many manufacturers use S-PVA panels. Also, almost all monitors in the popular 24" category use S-PVA panels.

TN Panel Technology

TN panels are the most widely used panel type as they are cheap and offer excellent response times, making them perfect for fast paced gaming. The response times of current TN panels range from 2ms to 5ms. However, color reproduction, viewing angles and contrast ratios of TN panels are the worst of any LCD panel technology. Unlike most 8-bit S-IPS/S-PVA/MVA panels, TN panels are only 6-bit and unable to display the full 16.7 million colors available in 24-bit true color. They can mimick the 16.7 million colors of 8-bit panels using a technique called dithering, but the results are unimpressive. TN panels have become popular with the average user because they are very inexpensive. They are also the only panels currently being used in 22" widescreen monitors, a very popular size. Many of these 22" TN panels are around the same price or cheaper than other 20" monitors with different panel types, so it is easy to see how how they gained popularity. Afterall, the average user buys a monitor based on price and size.

Summary of LCD Panel Technology

• S-IPS panels are generally considered the best all around panel type, but they are more expensive and very few are made.
• S-PVA/MVA panels offer better color reproduction and viewing angles than TN panels, have slightly worse response times than TN or S-IPS, offer the best contrast ratios, may suffer from color shifting or input lag and have higher availability than S-IPS panels.
• TN panels are very cheap with fast response times but have inferior color reproduction, contrast ratios and viewing angles. Only panel type currently available in 22" size.

That being said, from the research I've done lots of people give positive feedback about BenQ monitors, or if you have the cash to blow, the NEC LCD2690 looks to be totally badass if you can find it anywhere.

Henroid

Wow, I had no idea about the panel tech. I know for damn sure I wouldn't want TN now.

Satan.

Saying 5000:1 contrast ratio is "too much" is like saying you have too much money. It just depends on how much you're willing to spend.

Go to a store and look at some different monitors. Which ones have an acceptable black level? That's the best way to judge contrast ratio. The higher the number, the more "black" the blacks will be on your screen. Personally, I can't stand 1000:1. 5000:1 would be a sweet spot for me if I were a hardcore gamer.

Soulburner

Satan. wrote: »

Saying 5000:1 contrast ratio is "too much" is like saying you have too much money. It just depends on how much you're willing to spend.

Go to a store and look at some different monitors. Which ones have an acceptable black level? That's the best way to judge contrast ratio. The higher the number, the more "black" the blacks will be on your screen. Personally, I can't stand 1000:1. 5000:1 would be a sweet spot for me if I were a hardcore gamer.

Ah okay, that makes more sense. What i was seeing must have just been bad settings on the monitor, since the contrast on it looked way too high. I'm guessing that could easily be fixed in the monitor settings.

One thing I remember now is dynamic and static contrast ratios. I know lots of companies like to use the dynamic contrast ratio because it's like 4 to 5 times higher than the static, and then you have a bigger number that looks better to the consumer. So keep that in mind: a 1000:1 static is the same fucking thing as a 5000:1 dynamic (the math might be a little off there, but it'll be in that ballpark).

Satan.

That might be something to look out for when out at stores looking at monitors: take a look at the settings and make sure they aren't blown to high hell

gneGne

How much cash do you have to spend? Anything non-TN isn't cheap.

Artereis

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005096&Tpk=l206wty

Before I bought that monitor I was using a 19" CRT by Viewsonic. I was pretty nervous about moving to an LCD and wasn't sure if I would like widescreen. That LG monitor is amazing, though. I've had it for 6 months now and I still sit back and marvel at how good it looks. When I make the switch to an LCD TV, I'm probably going to pick up an LG for that, too.

Deusfaux

I just want to reiterate - there is no such thing as too high of a contrast ratio. the higher the better.

too much contrast or brightness maybe, but that should be variable on the display in question.

Sushisource

TN panels aren't all that bad unless you're going to be doing professional work that requires super accurate color reproductions.

They work fine for gaming, in fact, they are a much better value.

Henroid

Sushisource wrote: »

TN panels aren't all that bad unless you're going to be doing professional work that requires super accurate color reproductions.

They work fine for gaming, in fact, they are a much better value.

I'm basically going to do a side-by-side comparison in a store or two between a TN monitor and S-IPS monitor, to see if I can note the difference. I'm a very color sensitive person.

Deusfaux

I don't do professional work and I think TN panels are gross.

If by better value you mean cheaper = sure.

If you mean a good ratio of quality product to how much you're spending = naw, no way.

yoshamano

When it comes to LCDs I simplify things a ton through a very un-scientific process. Agreeing with the NEC comment, if you have money to burn, you can't go wrong. The whole NEC MultiSync line is very nice. If cash is an issue, Samsung LCDs are a safe bet (I have a SyncMaster 920bn). Failing all of that, just go to a store and put your feelies on some so you can kick the tires. Rather quickly you'll tell the shit monitors from the ones worth your time. The only thing you'll have a hard time telling is how it will preform with gaming.

LaCabra

Tell me about this monitor, guys

http://www.anz.aocmonitor.com/lcd_monitor/416v.php

imbalanced

LaCabra wrote: »

Tell me about this monitor, guys

http://www.anz.aocmonitor.com/lcd_monitor/416v.php

It looks nice, but I've never heard of AOC before.

I just purchased a Hanns-G from Newegg, and it's nice, decent contrast (1000:1), good response time (5ms), and 22" widescreen. Plus it didn't cost me too much. It can also run Counter-Strike 1.6 without a hitch, but so can a toaster oven. ;-) Anyway, I recommend it, as do several other Newegg'ers, it's at 5 eggs.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254020

Dratatoo

I don't do professional work and I think TN panels are gross.

If by better value you mean cheaper = sure.

If you mean a good ratio of quality product to how much you're spending = naw, no way.

TN panels aren't necessarily bad. I got an Samsung 245B (24'') - Although it has a TN panel, the display quality is pretty good IMO. I don't see color banding, or artifacts while viewing different gradients and shades. The viewing angle is good for a TN panel - I don't notice huge color shifts even on such a big surface (aside from the usual slight brightness difference, while moving my head below or above the ideal viewing angle). But these is just my personal impression. Regarding cheap displays - other factors play an important role too:

For example: The evenness of the backlight. In my example it shifts at the border of the dsiplay area. Not noticeable while "a complex picture" is being displayed, but really noticeable if you have large patches of solid colors This would drive perfectionists nuts, but well - I rolled cheap and I get cheap and I was used to it from my previous screen.

Another point to look at, is how the screen displays non-native content. Scaling with correct aspect ratio is often neglected by cheap monitors. Stretching a 4:3 to 16:10 is horrible - 16:9 to 16:10 not so much, but you are still loosing fidelity and quallity because the scaler has to provide calculate additional picture information. If your graphic card (or software) can't do the job you are left with a horrible aspect ratio in most cases.

One problem I have with my screen is, that it can't display 1080p content from my XBox360. The dashboard complains that my device isn't 50Hz compatible (i thought that refresh rate isn't a factor for a digital signal I am at a loss here). At 720p the internal scaler can convert the signal to whatever is needed to display a correct picture. At 1080p the scaler is apparently overstrained and displays a whole bunch of artifacts. (The same artifacts appear on my other 21'' Samsung screen if I try to use a resolution which exceeds the native resolution of the screen - most likely its the same scaling technic at work there)

So, to sum it up, TN panels can be a good alternative, if you don't expect to much. Most of them don't make your eyes bleed - like some people want you to believe. But remember best features are found by the "next tier" displays which use VA or S-IPS technology, this also applies to the connectivity options of most displays, plus you get better picture quality / color reproduction.

Henroid

Does anyone know a site that lists current S-IPS frame monitors? Like, not just lists all monitors with their type, I mean a specific list of only S-IPS (I'm so needy!).

Deusfaux

hardforum is good for displays info

lostcawz

One thing to consider is that contrast ratios aren't standardized, so one company's 1000:1 isn't necessarily the same as another manufacturer's 1000:1.

I do have a question about widescreens though. I have an older XP rig with a 9700 card in it. Are there any problems running in widescreen mode using an older card like mine? I've read things that imply this is an issue but nothing concrete one way or the other.

Deusfaux

the box, and the documentation should show the resolutions that card is capable of

I'm pretty sure it can handle up to 1920x1200 or higher

The Reverend Dr Galactus

If you're upgrading from a good CRT to an LCD, be prepared to be at first repulsed by the black levels. I'm serious.

When I first made the jump from an aging CRT to a pretty decent ViewSonic panel, I was in the middle of Half-Life 2, and the dimly-lit basements of Nova Prospekt looked horribly gray at first. I almost returned the monitor until I moved a lamp so that the wall behind my desk was better illuminated -- and then it was fine. Soon, I saw where the panel really excelled, especially in color reproduction (the first time I saw the orange sunsets somewhere in WoW that I've since forgotten the name of, I was quite impressed).

Dark areas are just a native limitation of LCDs. Even my new Samsung TV, with a 10,000:1 contrast ratio and gorgeous color has to be watched with the lights on because it's just physically impossible for the technology to make as solid a black as a CRT.

Gdiguy

lostcawz wrote: »

One thing to consider is that contrast ratios aren't standardized, so one company's 1000:1 isn't necessarily the same as another manufacturer's 1000:1.

I do have a question about widescreens though. I have an older XP rig with a 9700 card in it. Are there any problems running in widescreen mode using an older card like mine? I've read things that imply this is an issue but nothing concrete one way or the other.

I don't have a problem during general use with my 9800 (the old ati one); I can't run most newish games at native resolution, though (but they still look decent enough)

Technicality

My old 19" CRT decided to start doing the yellow bendy dance of death, so I've been hunting for something to replace it. I use my monitor for a bit of everything (films, programming, photo editing, games) and I'm not a huge fan of most LCD's I've seen (though I don't think I've seen any non TN ones before), so I'm looking for the best quality while not sucking at any one thing too much, with size as a secondary factor.

I've been thinking about getting a:
-Dell 2007 WFP 20" (as its a non tn panel)

but for a bit more (£30 or so) or so more I could get a:
-Samsung SM245B 24" (tn panel)

So I need to know if getting the dell over the samsung is a dumb idea that I would endlessly regret, or vice versa.

Satan.

Those Dell panels are nice for the price. We have a few at work.