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Shit's going down in Tibet

flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
edited March 2008 in Debate and/or Discourse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_unrest_in_Tibet
The 2008 unrest in Tibet began with demonstrations on March 10, 2008 (Tibetan Uprising Day), the 49th anniversary of the failed 1959 Tibetan uprising against Beijing's Communist party rule. The protests were started by Buddhist monks calling for the release of fellow monks detained in October 2007 as they celebrated the Dalai Lama receiving the United States Congressional Gold Medal on September 27, 2007. The protests soon shifted to calls for independence and descended into violence, rioting, burning and plunder on March 14, combined with attacks on non-Tibetan ethnic groups. The protests are said to be the largest protests against the Communist Party's rule in 20 years.

15tibet-ledespan-600.jpg

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Also, apparently the Chinese government has blocked Youtube because of riot-related videos and of course, other Western news sources as well.
Some accounts place the death toll at 30, some at 100, some at 300. It's hard to separate rumor from truthful first-hand account, and hard to know exactly how many have been killed or injured, because communication in the region is so difficult. Foreign journalists are not allowed in, unaccompanied by official escorts. Internet and phone communications are routinely blocked by Chinese authorities when unrest occurs

This is some pretty intense shit. Does anyone think anything will come of this?

flamebroiledchicken on

Posts

  • DagrabbitDagrabbit Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    After visiting Tibet a year ago (almost to the day), I have nothing but sympathy for the Tibetan people. Their culture is being systematically wiped out by the Chinese government and it was terribly depressing to see first hand. They're poor and desperate, so it's not surprising that violence (that will likely not lead to anything except their own death) is going to erupt in the region.

    Realistically, I'm not sure anything can be done.

  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    It's so crappy to see countries like England force their Olympic athletes sign "no criticism" agreements.

  • Mr PinkMr Pink I got cats for youRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    The Chinese government is blaming the Dhali Lama for the recent surge in violence, and the Dhali Lama is urgind his fellow Tibetans to not resort to violence. Something about that seems wrong.

    I hope this recent uprising at least raises awareness about Tibet. Thanks to the blocking of media, it's hard to get information out. I work as the World News Editor for a paper, and the best information I can find usually comes from 'outlawed' Tibet bloggers.

  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Mr Pink wrote: »
    The Chinese government is blaming the Dhali Lama for the recent surge in violence, and the Dhali Lama is urgind his fellow Tibetans to not resort to violence. Something about that seems wrong.

    Although if you think about it they aren't mutually exclusive, as people often do something in someone's name that's actually against that someone's stated purpose. Ok, that sounds really garbled, but I think the message is clear enough.

    I think the worst part about what's happening in China is how they're being enabled by other nations. For a rising economy, especially such a major exporter, like China I imagine international pressure could make a difference, but instead nations (and corporations, etc.) are saying "China is wrong but here we'll make some exceptions for them."

    The libertarian response to anything is, "Sure, that works fine in practice, but it doesn't fly in theory."
  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    This may be a situation the CIA might want to inflame if we want to keep China off balance.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • matisyahumatisyahu Registered User
    edited March 2008
    It isn't in US interests to have an unstable China. Nothing good can come from the escalation of military conflict in the region.

    i dont even like matisyahu and i dont know why i picked this username
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    You know what'd be awesome? If we'd actually boycott the fucking olympics because of the shit China does. It is still a crappy crappy government and I hate the fact we keep turning a blind eye to all the bullshit they do.

  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    The Olympics are supposed to be apolitical.

    I read somewhere that Tibet is trying to set up a theocracy. Is the any veracity to this?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • HacksawHacksaw J Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    You know what'd be awesome? If we'd actually boycott the fucking olympics because of the shit China does.
    If only the American government could do this. :(

  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    You know what'd be awesome? If we'd actually boycott the fucking olympics because of the shit China does.
    If only the American government could do this. :(

    Why can't we? We did it when it was in Moscow.

    The libertarian response to anything is, "Sure, that works fine in practice, but it doesn't fly in theory."
  • HacksawHacksaw J Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Cervetus wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    You know what'd be awesome? If we'd actually boycott the fucking olympics because of the shit China does.
    If only the American government could do this. :(

    Why can't we? We did it when it was in Moscow.
    China essentially owns the US. They've been buying our debt for the past I have no idea how long. The best we can do is posture and saber rattle, but nothing more.

  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Cervetus wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    You know what'd be awesome? If we'd actually boycott the fucking olympics because of the shit China does.
    If only the American government could do this. :(

    Why can't we? We did it when it was in Moscow.

    Yeah but the Russians were filthy commu-....oh my.

  • edited March 2008
    It's so crappy to see countries like England force their Olympic athletes sign "no criticism" agreements.

    I believe that clause in the British Olympic Committee's contracts has now been removed.
    Cervetus wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    You know what'd be awesome? If we'd actually boycott the fucking olympics because of the shit China does.
    If only the American government could do this. :(

    Why can't we? We did it when it was in Moscow.

    It's a nice idea but would it actually change anything? Western nations would be better off trying to act as intermediaries.

    EDIT: I don't think the Chinese would take too many punitive measures if the US boycotted them. They'd be pissed the popular dude didn't turn up to their big party but they'll be far more mindful of long-term consequences.

    They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
    They may not mean to, but they do.
    They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.
  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Plutocracy wrote: »
    It's so crappy to see countries like England force their Olympic athletes sign "no criticism" agreements.

    I believe that clause in the British Olympic Committee's contracts has now been removed.
    Cervetus wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    You know what'd be awesome? If we'd actually boycott the fucking olympics because of the shit China does.
    If only the American government could do this. :(

    Why can't we? We did it when it was in Moscow.

    It's a nice idea but would it actually change anything? Western nations would be better off trying to act as intermediaries.

    EDIT: I don't think the Chinese would take too many punitive measures if the US boycotted them. They'd be pissed the popular dude didn't turn up to their big party but they'll be far more mindful of long-term consequences.

    They don't need to be mindful of shit as long as they've got the US by the economic balls. I wonder why we don't hear conservatives flipping the fuck out over all the money we owe to the communists.

  • edited March 2008
    Yes they would probably have no problem squeezing the US's balls if the occasion arose, but they're not going to do it over an Olympic boycott. They're just as dependent on the US buying their shit as the US is on them.

    They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
    They may not mean to, but they do.
    They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.
  • Pants ManPants Man Registered User
    edited March 2008
    boycotting the olympics was a debacle the first time we did it, and i really don't think that the US boycotting them would mean anything now either, not with how we're viewed worldwide.

    i mean, during the cold war even people who didn't like us thought of us as the lesser of two evils. now there's no "greater" to really be compared against, even if china has a much worse human rights record than we do.

    china should've never gotten the olympic bid, and violence and death aside, i wish that this uprising would've been held back about four or five months.

    "okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Plutocracy wrote: »
    Yes they would probably have no problem squeezing the US's balls if the occasion arose, but they're not going to do it over an Olympic boycott. They're just as dependent on the US buying their shit as the US is on them.

    Not quite as dependent, as they could still sell stuff to the smoking remains, maybe even doing better if it can get itself a colonialism-style monopoly.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited March 2008
    China has been up to so much shit in the past couple of years that could have built a strong movement to boycott the Olympics. Their behaviour in Sudan would probably justify it, and this just adds to it - and I think the Tibetans know this and are trying to instigate a situation.

    At the same time, I'm conflicted. China's government is as shitty as you can possibly get but at the same time, it's an emerging world power and an amazing culture that has never had the opportunity to host the Olympics before now (Seoul, Tokyo and Nagano are the only "Eastern" Olympics I can think of). I don't like it, and I certainly shouldn't, but for some reason I feel obliged to give them a little more leeway . . . even as they horribly repress their own citizens, kill dozens of people in Tibet and contribute to the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Darfur :|

  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    And we've done business with and installed some unseemly stuff of our own, and still hosted (Salt Lake City after putting the Shah in power, for example).

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • edited March 2008
    The best way to embarrass the Chinese authorities is not to boycott the Olympics but make sure that when all the athletes and media turn up they go all-out in trying to air China's dirty linen. If there was a mass effort there is no way China could keep tabs on all of it.

    They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
    They may not mean to, but they do.
    They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    And we've done business with and installed some unseemly stuff of our own, and still hosted (Salt Lake City after putting the Shah in power, for example).
    The Shah, as in, back in 1950 . . . something? O_o

    I think you've hosted a number of Olympics since then . . . and pulled off a number of unseemly stuff too in the interim :P

    But yes, I do fully understand your point (just joshing you for your old and obscure reference), but for the most part an Olympic boycott really requires some concurrent, egregious, wrong. The Moscow Olympics at the same time the USSR was invading Afghanistan, for example. The history of Olympic boycotts are interesting though, the Montreal games saw most of Africa boycott simply because New Zealand was allowed to participate (their rugby team had continued to play in apartheid South Africa).

  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    Plutocracy wrote: »
    The best way to embarrass the Chinese authorities is not to boycott the Olympics but make sure that when all the athletes and media turn up they go all-out in trying to air China's dirty linen. If there was a mass effort there is no way China could keep tabs on all of it.

    That's considered ill form and I believe I've read of the U.S. complaining about that kind of stuff.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    The Olympics are supposed to be apolitical.

    I read somewhere that Tibet is trying to set up a theocracy. Is the any veracity to this?
    Um, no?
    Vajrayana Buddhism has nothing to do with theocracy.

    39kEWYh.jpg
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited March 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    The Olympics are supposed to be apolitical.

    I read somewhere that Tibet is trying to set up a theocracy. Is the any veracity to this?
    Um, no?

    Vajrayana Buddhism has nothing to do with theocracy.
    The story goes that supposedly Tibet was a backwards, feudal theocracy before China marched in in 1950.

    I have no doubt that a lot of that line of thinking is the work of communist apologists.

  • saggiosaggio Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    I read somewhere that Tibet is trying to set up a theocracy. Is the any veracity to this?

    None whatsoever. That sounds like some excellent Chinese government propaganda. The Tibetan Government-in-Exile is committed to re-establishing a sovereign Tibetan nation with full multi-party democracy, with modern institutions. If the Dalai Lama were to have a political role (which is unlikely, given the statements from the current incumbent), it would be something on the order of a constitutional monarchy, like Canada.

    3DS: 0232-9436-6893
  • dragonsamadragonsama Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Our president shows how much of a douche he is

    Sorry the president should boycott this thing. Sorry I know you think it's unrelated but there is the principal of the matter.

  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Beyond The WallRegistered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Considering China promised the IOC more openness for reporters as a condition of hosting the 2008 Olympics and now China is barring reporters from even entering Tibet (The ones already there have been confined to their hotels) I hope some pretty harsh criticisms come out. I have little sympathy for China since they're buying their way to international legitimacy. And everyone's going along with it because of the sheer economic clout the Chinese can swing.

  • DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo

    So this video's been making the rounds around the super "rah rah CCP is awesome you guys are mindless fucks brainwashed by Western media bias (lol irony) kill the Tibetan protesters" Chinese people.

    Aside from the obvious mistake on "fact" 2 where they claim Tibet's been part of China for thousands of years and then show it hasn't even been part of it for 800 years, anyone else have evidence either for/against their other "facts" in the videos? I'm rather skeptical of their claims but don't really have the sources to prove them wrong.

  • CauldCauld Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    China has been up to so much shit in the past couple of years that could have built a strong movement to boycott the Olympics. Their behaviour in Sudan would probably justify it, and this just adds to it - and I think the Tibetans know this and are trying to instigate a situation.

    At the same time, I'm conflicted. China's government is as shitty as you can possibly get but at the same time, it's an emerging world power and an amazing culture that has never had the opportunity to host the Olympics before now (Seoul, Tokyo and Nagano are the only "Eastern" Olympics I can think of). I don't like it, and I certainly shouldn't, but for some reason I feel obliged to give them a little more leeway . . . even as they horribly repress their own citizens, kill dozens of people in Tibet and contribute to the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Darfur :|

    I'm going to have to disagree with the part I bolded. China's government certainly isn't as shitty as you can possibly get. Have we forgotten about North Korea? Or any number of other dictators. At least the leaders change in China. I have a decent amount of respect for the current government. Though I disagree with blocking out the media and their human rights message, I still respect the progress they've made.

    Just think back to 1990s China, or even earlier, when the hardliners were still in power. The more recent governments have installed a huge amount of reforms in an extremely short time. They now have a largely market economy, international relations (they even have peacekeeping troops abroad now, I believe). Their infrastructure is being developing at an extremely rapid pace. They have the political will/power to tackle so many problems a democratic nation like the US couldn't hope to handle. After all they started the One-Child policy over 25 years ago and have stuck to it, because it was their only hope.

    I'll admit that there's plenty of things they do wrong, but if you look at their economic rise over the past 20 years its hard not to be impressed. Also for all the complaining and lobbying western countries do, China still manages to progess beyond just the economic arena. They helped during the 5-party talks with North Korea. Their human rights record is improving. The western areas of China serve as a stabilizing force for many of the former Russian Islamic states. But I think most importantly they're giving their citizens better lives. Of course it's not ideal yet, but I really think they're doing quite well.

    As for boycotting the Olympics being a good idea. This is probably not going to happen. The Chinese governemnt sees the Olympics as way to finally show the world all the progress China has made in the last 20-30 years. Progress made almost entirely by the 'Reform' segment of their party. Embarassing China, and the more friendly faction of their government would only support the hardliners. The same hardliners who wouldn't mind dumping the trillions of dollars in US Debt and go back to the 'good old days' before all the recent reforms started.

    As for the person who said they'd been to Tibet and felt bad about the systematic destruction of the Tibetan culture. That I agree with. I haven't had a chance to go to Tibet yet, but I understand this is exactly what's going on. From my understanding, the Chinese feeling is that they're bringing modernization and an improved economy to Tibet, and they don't understand what the problem is with that. It sounds a lot like how the US used to treat Native Americans.

    I had a lot of misconceptions about China, even after having travelled their once about 10 years ago. But having gone twice more (each time for month) in the past year, I think my opinions have changed. There is some truth to the matter that its just 'better news' if the Chinese government is full of corrupt murderers than it is if they're simply doing their best with a difficult situation.

    I find it particularly difficult to not respect the Chinese Government. All governments do things we wish they didn't, but at least Chinas produces noticable improvements to the lives of the vast majority of its citizens, and their futures.

  • an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    beijingwg9.jpg

    In fairness to China, Cauld is right that they have come a long way, but not nearly far enough for a remotely first world country.

    Pony wrote:
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  • DagrabbitDagrabbit Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Cauld wrote: »
    As for the person who said they'd been to Tibet and felt bad about the systematic destruction of the Tibetan culture. That I agree with. I haven't had a chance to go to Tibet yet, but I understand this is exactly what's going on. From my understanding, the Chinese feeling is that they're bringing modernization and an improved economy to Tibet, and they don't understand what the problem is with that. It sounds a lot like how the US used to treat Native Americans.

    There's a few specific policies that the Chinese government imposes on Tibet that are causing the Tibetan culture to be wiped out (my source for these is the Tibetan guide I had, and seeing some of it firsthand):

    1. Removing holy articles from temples to put in Mainland China's museums.
    2. Strict limits on how many men may become Buddhist monks (temples that used to have 1000's of monks living there now typically have "official" enrollment of around 300-500).
    3. Temples are regularly patrolled for any foribbiden items (mostly the Dalai Lama photos).
    4. The "disappearance" of the Panchen Lama and the government's insistence on naming the reincarnation of all Dalai Lamas.
    5. Tibetans are charged to go to state-sponsored schools (most of them can't afford them).
    6. The Tibetan native language is not allowed to be taught in schools, only Mandarin.
    7. Han Chinese are given preferential job placement, partly through the inability of Tibetans to get accepted into Chinese schools.
    8. Government programs to actively try and get specifically Han Chinese to move to Tibet.

    It all adds up to a systematic effort to marginalize the religion and native people of Tibet. When visiting Lhasa, it's very obvious that there is a Chinese half of town and a Tibetan half of town. The Tibetan side is poor, the Chinese side has all of the vaunted modernization.

    One of the most telling stories was when our guide brought us to a Tibetan woman's cave to show us how they lived when going through a spiritual cleansing ritual. At first, she wouldn't allow us to come near until he brought her out to see that we were not Chinese.

    On the one hand, I get why the Chinese government does what they do. They're concerned that Tibet could flare up into a bloody uprising (all like, 10 people that live there). They want a unified China. However, they implement terrible policies that punish Tibetans for being Tibetan, which just makes the Tibetans even angrier as they get poorer and more marginalized. I don't think they're "doing the best they can," I think they have an agenda, and that agenda is to make Tibet (Han) Chinese at any cost.

    The "Free Tibet" movement wouldn't have any real legs if Tibetans were treated fairly. They're not, they hate it, and they hate the Chinese as a direct result.

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