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Genre/Subgenre/Medium

SlickShughesSlickShughes Registered User regular
edited April 2008 in Debate and/or Discourse
This started as a heated argument in a thread over in H/A, where it really had no place, so I thought I'd pose it here as a more general question. The initial debate was whether anime is a genre or a medium so I'm curious what people have to say about that, but to step it back a bit; how about just what makes a genre?

SlickShughes on
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Posts

  • KingthlayerKingthlayer Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    According to dictionary.com medium is define as "the material or technique with which an artist works: the medium of watercolor."

    genre is defined as "a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music."

    Therefore, in relevance to that thread, animation is the medium and anime is the genre.

    Kingthlayer on
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited March 2008
    I'd like to bring a third word into the equation: style.

    Animation is the medium. Anime is the style of the medium. Then we have the genre, be it romantic comedy or sci-fi action.

    Echo on
  • kitchkitch Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Genre usually entails the word "conventions" whereas a medium is better defined as the means of exhibiting information.

    Genres also have specific syntax. Take Westerns, for instance. You can generally tell within 10 seconds if you're watching a western. Cowboys, horses, railroad, sheriff, pistols, etc.

    A medium tends to refer to structural things. Film, television, radio, animation, videogames, books.

    The distinction of anime as a medium or genre might be similar to the distinction between comics, graphic novels, and manga. They sort of blur the lines because each has its own conventions. However, within those you can have sci-fi comics, sci-fi manga, and sci-fi graphic novels. And while reading one, you can definitely tell through specific conventions whether or not you're reading a comic, graphic novel, or manga. Does that make them mediums or genres?


    e: Echo wins.

    kitch on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    My Neighbor Totoro is definitely the same genre as Angel of Darkness.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Anime is Japanese animation.

    Japanese animation has a particular dominant visual style. That's one aspect of anime.

    Animation is a medium.

    Japanese animation has genres, just like any other medium. Some of these are more prevalent than others, to the extent that the genre is perceived as the medium. These genres have particularly stylistic conventions.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2008
    And that's why we should group film based on production-values rather than narrative style or content.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2008
    Echo wrote: »
    I'd like to bring a third word into the equation: style.

    Animation is the medium. Anime is the style of the medium. Then we have the genre, be it romantic comedy or sci-fi action.

    This hoopy Echo is one frood who really knows where his towel is.

    ElJeffe on
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  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    I'd like to bring a third word into the equation: style.

    Animation is the medium. Anime is the style of the medium. Then we have the genre, be it romantic comedy or sci-fi action.

    This hoopy Echo is one frood who really knows where his towel is.

    I sure sass him.

    MikeMan on
  • KingthlayerKingthlayer Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    Echo wrote: »
    I'd like to bring a third word into the equation: style.

    Animation is the medium. Anime is the style of the medium. Then we have the genre, be it romantic comedy or sci-fi action.

    this makes more sense. you win, good sir. you win.

    Kingthlayer on
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    MikeMan wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    I'd like to bring a third word into the equation: style.

    Animation is the medium. Anime is the style of the medium. Then we have the genre, be it romantic comedy or sci-fi action.

    This hoopy Echo is one frood who really knows where his towel is.

    I sure sass him.
    Sass
    Know, be aware of, meet, have sex with.

    :winky:

    japan on
  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited March 2008
    japan wrote: »
    MikeMan wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    I'd like to bring a third word into the equation: style.

    Animation is the medium. Anime is the style of the medium. Then we have the genre, be it romantic comedy or sci-fi action.

    This hoopy Echo is one frood who really knows where his towel is.

    I sure sass him.
    Sass
    Know, be aware of, meet, have sex with.
    :winky:

    I loves me the furrners.

    MikeMan on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Anime styles can differ hugely, though. They're not all about big eyes or pointy noses or thin bodies or whatever people associate with anime.

    Not to mention that Japanese animation originally drew heavily on American animation, and the favour has since been returned.

    I don't know. I just disagree when, say, Avatar the Last Airbender is described as an anime, because it's not Japanese. Plus it only resembles some anime, certainly not all. Or do people call anime that resembles a particular American animation a cartoon? I don't see that happening.

    It's frustrating because there are good and bad cartoons and good and bad anime but for so many people it's as if you have to only like one or the other. Or if you like anime you are automatically a nerd whereas liking an Adult Swim cartoon is cool. Argh.

    Janson on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    All cartoons to me. At this point they're all drawn in Korea anyway, aren't they?

    ViolentChemistry on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Pretty much, yes!

    Janson on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    And Batman: TAS was co-produced by Sunrise.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • DaenrisDaenris Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    I don't know. I just disagree when, say, Avatar the Last Airbender is described as an anime, because it's not Japanese. Plus it only resembles some anime, certainly not all. Or do people call anime that resembles a particular American animation a cartoon? I don't see that happening.

    Usually when I see someone describe Avatar as anime I immediately see 5-10 people respond that it's not anime.

    And I would tend to agree with those describing anime as the medium (or style/subclassification of the medium). Sure they can differ, just as two watercolors done in the same style by two different artists can look very different. But they're still both watercolors.

    Daenris on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    But non-Japanese animation isn't exactly like comparing oils to watercolours; it uses the same techniques and materials.

    Janson on
  • DaenrisDaenris Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Okay, then take off the first part of my second paragraph, and just stick with anime as being the style of the medium. I think it's a bit of a gray area, but I certainly lean towards that anyway. So as someone stated before, you have animation as the medium, and anime as a style of animation. Within anime you can certainly have very different final products that can still be classified as anime.

    Daenris on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So what would you say, out of curiosity, defines anime as a 'style'? I mean, if you were shown a cartoon and you weren't told the country of origin, what would you use to determine whether or not it was anime?

    Janson on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    So what would you say, out of curiosity, defines anime as a 'style'? I mean, if you were shown a cartoon and you weren't told the country of origin, what would you use to determine whether or not it was anime?

    The art style and pacing of an anime is very distinct.

    nexuscrawler on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    You see, that's where I disagree.

    There are certain animation shortcuts that are very common in anime because generally anime has a much, much lower budget than American productions. But even then it's not universal.

    Janson on
  • DaenrisDaenris Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Okay, give us some names of anime that you think would not be immediately identifiable as anime. I suspect that in truth they'll share common elements with "classical" anime.

    I'm not saying all anime is identical or uses exactly the same techniques and visual characteristics, but all the anime I've seen has been identifiable as anime within the first couple minutes.

    How do you define anime? To you is it strictly a term to identify the region it originated in?

    Daenris on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    A good comparison would be Film Noir. It was to start a distinctly American style(drawing on various European styles the proceeded it). It got picked up worldwide and became pretty much a global style with a few regional differences. Is any

    nexuscrawler on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I don't see much point in creating a name for a group of cartoons based simply on the country that it comes from.

    Quid on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    So what would you say, out of curiosity, defines anime as a 'style'? I mean, if you were shown a cartoon and you weren't told the country of origin, what would you use to determine whether or not it was anime?

    The art style and pacing of an anime is very distinct.

    Except that that happens on an individual level. The art-style and pacing of Cowboy Bebop is very distinct from the art-style and pacing of Pokemon.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Echo wrote: »
    I'd like to bring a third word into the equation: style.

    Animation is the medium. Anime is the style of the medium. Then we have the genre, be it romantic comedy or sci-fi action.

    Quebec Foxtrot Tango

    MagicPrime on
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  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    So what would you say, out of curiosity, defines anime as a 'style'? I mean, if you were shown a cartoon and you weren't told the country of origin, what would you use to determine whether or not it was anime?

    The art style and pacing of an anime is very distinct.

    I mean, shit, you can hear anime. Somebody will grunt in at least a few lines of dialogue. Some character will do that thing where they get frustrated at another character and yell monotonously and at length about something.

    Wonder_Hippie on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    So what would you say, out of curiosity, defines anime as a 'style'? I mean, if you were shown a cartoon and you weren't told the country of origin, what would you use to determine whether or not it was anime?

    The art style and pacing of an anime is very distinct.

    I mean, shit, you can hear anime. Somebody will grunt in at least a few lines of dialogue. Some character will do that thing where they get frustrated at another character and yell monotonously and at length about something.

    This also varies on an individual basis. And occurs in American cartoons.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    So what would you say, out of curiosity, defines anime as a 'style'? I mean, if you were shown a cartoon and you weren't told the country of origin, what would you use to determine whether or not it was anime?

    The art style and pacing of an anime is very distinct.

    I mean, shit, you can hear anime. Somebody will grunt in at least a few lines of dialogue. Some character will do that thing where they get frustrated at another character and yell monotonously and at length about something.

    This also varies on an individual basis. And occurs in American cartoons.

    But does the grunting sound out of place to Western ears when it's used in American cartoons? Unless it's a cartoon that already borrows heavily from anime conventions, I think it'd pass by without notice.

    I'm just trying to say that there are some pretty regular conventions. I agree with what Echo said, that it's just a style in a medium with many genres, but it is definitely distinct from other kinds of cartoons due to a variety of differences. It's just a different way to make a cartoon, that's all.

    Wonder_Hippie on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Quid wrote: »
    I don't see much point in creating a name for a group of cartoons based simply on the country that it comes from.

    You're right; I'm just going to say cartoon from now on. Plus these days the animation is often out-sourced to other countries. Wait, scratch that, animation has been out-sourced to other countries for decades. Ah, 80s cartoons - Dogtanian, The Littl' Bits and Around the World with Willy Fog were all animated in Japan.

    I just think it's disingenuous to lump series as varied as Gankatsuou, Berserk, Monster, Witchhunter Robin, Pokémon, Host Club and FMA, for example, under one category and then just dismiss them all. And there are plenty of people who have whined about anime and how stupid it is and then have loved the Disney releases of Miyazaki movies.

    Janson on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    So what would you say, out of curiosity, defines anime as a 'style'? I mean, if you were shown a cartoon and you weren't told the country of origin, what would you use to determine whether or not it was anime?

    The art style and pacing of an anime is very distinct.

    Except that that happens on an individual level. The art-style and pacing of Cowboy Bebop is very distinct from the art-style and pacing of Pokemon.

    Yet at the same time, the both share a lot in common.

    CowboyBebopDVDBoxSet-768059.jpg

    s_pokemon-safari.com_equipo_DP_nuevos_pokemon_pokemon-safari.com.jpg

    Tell me you see nothing in common between the two art styles. Go ahead tell me. So I can call you a big, fat liar.

    ElJeffe on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2008
    Also, I need to remember to turn on safesearch before I start GISing "pokemon".

    *shudder*

    ElJeffe on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    I just think it's disingenuous to lump series as varied as Gankatsuou, Berserk, Monster, Witchhunter Robin, Pokémon, Host Club and FMA, for example, under one category and then just dismiss them all. And there are plenty of people who have whined about anime and how stupid it is and then have loved the Disney releases of Miyazaki movies.
    To be fair the bolded bit's really a problem faced by most animated media. It's just that the people who dismiss one group of cartoons because they're from Asia are being extra ridiculous.

    Quid on
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    And there are plenty of people who have whined about anime and how stupid it is and then have loved the Disney releases of Miyazaki movies.

    As somebody that this describes, let me tell you why that is. Most anime, the vast, overwhelming majority of it, has absolutely no subtelty. There are a handful of exceptions, but for the most part, characters say or otherwise display exactly what they're feeling, when they're feeling it, why they're feeling it, and how long they're going to be feeling it. There is just no subtelty to it, and that drives me away. Miyazaki's films and a handful of series and other movies break this convention, and, in the case of Miyazaki, do it while taking your breath away. It doesn't hurt that you can look at one of his movies and immediately know it's him behind the scenes.

    I guess I just like reading into emotion, determining motivation, etc. Anime doesn't generally offer that.

    Wonder_Hippie on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Then...you're watching the wrong anime?

    I've disliked maybe 60-70% of the anime I've seen. Doesn't mean I dismiss the other 30-40%; I'll just treat each series on an individual basis. Japan produces dozens of series a year, of which only a small fraction will see a North American release. Maybe it's the distributors who are latching onto a particular subset of anime based upon previous series' success.

    I can't say that many of the series I have enjoyed have the qualities you are describing.

    Janson on
  • DaenrisDaenris Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    I just think it's disingenuous to lump series as varied as Gankatsuou, Berserk, Monster, Witchhunter Robin, Pokémon, Host Club and FMA, for example, under one category and then just dismiss them all. And there are plenty of people who have whined about anime and how stupid it is and then have loved the Disney releases of Miyazaki movies.

    Are you telling me you seriously don't see similarities in the visual style of these:

    http://www.madman.com.au/wallpapers/gankutsuou_the_count_of_m_163_1024.jpg
    http://www.haru.tv/cover/227.jpg
    http://images.stage6.com/channel_images/ianimei/4659895fc2aa6.jpg
    http://fansub.guckies.com/images/WitchHunterRobin1.jpg
    http://www.pokemex.com/imagenes/DP_Poster_anime.jpg
    http://pajcat.files.wordpress.com/2006/04/ourgroup.JPG
    http://www.mines.edu/research/k12-partnership/tech06/Meagan/more%20FMA-lighting.JPG

    Sure they have their differences, but they also have a lot of shared visual style. I'm not saying they're all the same show or they're all crap. I think you have two different issues here. One is the common style elements of anime. The other is that people who are unfamiliar with it lump all anime together and say it's all the same crap.

    The second issue is just people being ignorant. But I really don't see how the first issue can be denied. They're similar. And moreso than just saying two random cartoons are similar.

    Daenris on
  • Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    Then...you're watching the wrong anime?

    I've disliked maybe 60-70% of the anime I've seen. Doesn't mean I dismiss the other 30-40%; I'll just treat each series on an individual basis. Japan produces dozens of series a year, of which only a small fraction will see a North American release. Maybe it's the distributors who are latching onto a particular subset of anime based upon previous series' success.

    I can't say that many of the series I have enjoyed have the qualities you are describing.

    I don't know what you're watching. Seriously. And I don't dismiss all of anime. I wind up taking them each on an individual basis, but when I immediately see the same conventions that drive me away from anime consistently in almost everything I watch, I'm going to get jaded eventually.

    And seriously, aside from a handful of series like Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Beebop, and some others I can't really think of, everything I've ever seen labelled as anime had that characteristic. It's one of the defining characteristics of anime.

    Wonder_Hippie on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Actually Hippie, I'd say the issue is more that the type of anime that is often brought over to America is one specific sub-genre of anime, that being shonen. Shonen being aimed at 12-14ish japanese boys as it's primary market.

    Living in a western country, and this being the type of anime that is mostly brought over, means that of course that's what you'd be exposed to most. But anime in Japan is produced for all ages and all interests, from baseball anime to DBZ to serious dramas like Tokyo Godfathers.

    But, yes, it's generally easy to tell if something is an anime or is imitating the general anime style. They tend to employ certain color palettes, employ similar character archetypes, have certain character dynamics and relationships, similar humor etc. But that's all because they are all coming from the same country that has a pretty strong culture. Likewise, it's pretty darn easy to tell when a cartoon is from american creators.

    Inquisitor on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Daenris wrote: »
    Sure they have their differences, but they also have a lot of shared visual style. I'm not saying they're all the same show or they're all crap. I think you have two different issues here. One is the common style elements of anime. The other is that people who are unfamiliar with it lump all anime together and say it's all the same crap.

    The second issue is just people being ignorant. But I really don't see how the first issue can be denied. They're similar. And moreso than just saying two random cartoons are similar.

    Yes, those do have a shared visual style. But my reply was to Nexus_Crawler; I don't think half of the series listed there have the dramatic qualities that he listed.

    Anyway; I can't say that I've watched an anime in over two years, now. I tend to watch whatever TV series comes recommended to me, be it animated or live-action, and I can't say I have any specific criteria for what I do/don't like.

    Heck, I don't even like Cowboy Bebop or Ghost in the Shell. Terribly overrated.

    I find that when most people talk about anime they have something very specific in mind and it's not the case for everything. 'They all have big eyes!' No. 'They all have disproportionate bodies!' Again, no. 'They all have cel-shading!', etc. etc.

    Janson on
  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Actually Hippie, I'd say the issue is more that the type of anime that is often brought over to America is one specific sub-genre of anime, that being shonen. Shonen being aimed at 12-14ish japanese boys as it's primary market.

    Living in a western country, and this being the type of anime that is mostly brought over, means that of course that's what you'd be exposed to most. But anime in Japan is produced for all ages and all interests, from baseball anime to DBZ to serious dramas like Tokyo Godfathers.

    But, yes, it's generally easy to tell if something is an anime or is imitating the general anime style. They tend to employ certain color palettes, employ similar character archetypes, have certain character dynamics and relationships, similar humor etc. But that's all because they are all coming from the same country that has a pretty strong culture. Likewise, it's pretty darn easy to tell when a cartoon is from american creators.

    Right, this is an excellent post. I am not disagreeing with any of this and if I appear to have done so then I've just been my usual unclear self. emot_sweatdrop.gif

    Janson on
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