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New Oklahoma Abortion Law: Going Too Far

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Posts

  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    I strongly suspect that a lot of the guilt / depression post-abortion women / girls get is because they're constantly told by society that they should feel depressed over it. Same with rape victims.

    Or, you know, the fact that they realize that they just willingly, and purposefully, snuffed out a human life. Abortion IS NOT a wonderful happy thing. It is essentially the definition of a necessary evil. It is understandable why a women would be upset after having one, and we as a society need to support these women in some way, if we want to pretend that we have any kind of compassion at all.

    I'm not denying any of that; just saying there's some additional causes too. Abortion isn't a necessary evil though, since it's not necessarily an evil.
    Yar wrote:
    You should know by now that the anti-abortion movement does not consider itself to be forcing anyone to do anything.

    I'm pretty sure they do. Forcing people to do something isn't intrinsically negative.

    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Abortion isn't a necessary evil though, since it's not necessarily an evil.

    I also consider hiring an exterminator to be a necessary evil, if it helps you to understand what I'm saying.

    I am 100% pro-choice, but I think it does the pro-choice movement a disservice to deny that an abortion involves killing a thing. When you ignore ugly or inconvenient truths, you just give your enemies more to attack.

    When you recognize them, and explain why they ultimately don't make a difference, then you leave them without those arguments.

    georgersig.jpg
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote:
    I am 100% pro-choice, but I think it does the pro-choice movement a disservice to deny that an abortion involves killing a thing.

    Yeah, but what's wrong with killing a thing? I don't agree that cockroaches exterminators are evil.

    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote:
    I am 100% pro-choice, but I think it does the pro-choice movement a disservice to deny that an abortion involves killing a thing.

    Yeah, but what's wrong with killing a thing? I don't agree that cockroaches exterminators are evil.

    I didn't say that the person doing the exterminating is evil.

    I said that the act of killing is evil. And JUST the act.



    An evil that is sometimes necessary.

    georgersig.jpg
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Beyond The WallRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote:
    I am 100% pro-choice, but I think it does the pro-choice movement a disservice to deny that an abortion involves killing a thing.

    Yeah, but what's wrong with killing a thing? I don't agree that cockroaches exterminators are evil.

    I didn't say that the person doing the exterminating is evil.

    I said that the act of killing is evil. And JUST the act.



    An evil that is sometimes necessary.

    Why is killing evil? How do you even define evil?

    My blog: www.jonathanirons.net
    My Twitter: @IronsJonathan
    Be advised, I'm not the best at keeping either updated. >.>
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote:
    I am 100% pro-choice, but I think it does the pro-choice movement a disservice to deny that an abortion involves killing a thing.

    Yeah, but what's wrong with killing a thing? I don't agree that cockroaches exterminators are evil.

    I didn't say that the person doing the exterminating is evil.

    I said that the act of killing is evil. And JUST the act.



    An evil that is sometimes necessary.

    Why is killing evil? How do you even define evil?

    I define evil rather vaguely, I'll admit, but killing is evil because it is a harmful thing that absolutely cannot be undone.

    As far as science can show us, you only have one life, and that's it.

    georgersig.jpg
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Beyond The WallRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    That's awfully arbitrary. Is killing still evil when it saves another life, such as using lethal force to protect one's friends or family?

    My blog: www.jonathanirons.net
    My Twitter: @IronsJonathan
    Be advised, I'm not the best at keeping either updated. >.>
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2008
    Evil isn't real like a chair is real, it's real like art is real, which is to say it exists only in the minds of people, and exists as a different thing in each person's mind. Evil isn't relevant.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Beyond The WallRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evil isn't real like a chair is real, it's real like art is real, which is to say it exists only in the minds of people, and exists as a different thing in each person's mind.

    Right, that's how I see it, too. So it really hasn't got any objective basis and doesn't really mean anything in the context of an abortion debate. At least, that's how I see it.

    My blog: www.jonathanirons.net
    My Twitter: @IronsJonathan
    Be advised, I'm not the best at keeping either updated. >.>
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2008
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Evil isn't real like a chair is real, it's real like art is real, which is to say it exists only in the minds of people, and exists as a different thing in each person's mind.

    Right, that's how I see it, too. So it really hasn't got any objective basis and doesn't really mean anything in the context of an abortion debate. At least, that's how I see it.

    Indeed. "What is evil" is a question for a separate thread.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Did you read the OP?

    We are talking about forcing invasive ultrasounds on women getting abortions, even if BOTH the patient and doctor are opposed.
    Did you read your own post?

    Regardless, like I said, I doubt they see this as forcing women to do things. They don't see themselves as "forcing" a woman to have a baby, or to undergo whatever is determined to be required medical procedure in performing an abortion. They see getting pregnant and subsequently having an abortion as two things she can choose or not choose.

  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Again, I'm pretty sure anti-abortionists see it as a matter of force. I get that you're attempting to sympathetically empathise with their mindset, but taking the element of force out of consideration isn't necessary to sympathise with the viewpoint. Not all force is bad.

    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Again, I'm pretty sure anti-abortionists see it as a matter of force. I get that you're attempting to sympathetically empathise with their mindset, but taking the element of force out of consideration isn't necessary to sympathise with the viewpoint. Not all force is bad.
    No, that isn't what I'm saying. I don't care about bad force or not bad force.

    The only "force" that I think enters into the head of an anti-abortionist is in what they can enforce upon a doctor who performs hypothetically illegal practices. I honestly don't believe they see themselves as "forcing" women to have babies. Having sex and subsequent biological forces do that. I think this is an important part of the mindset to understand.

  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Maybe not forcing women to have babies, but they certainly consider themselves as forcing women to not have abortions.

    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2008
    They're forcing pregnant women to carry to term. They can't claim that they're not. You are all _J_.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited April 2008
    Yar and I are talking about how anti-abortionists consider their views. Not hard to follow.

    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    They certainly can. People can claim the sky is green, and totally believe it.

    People can find any reason to justify their beliefs/actions.

    “This is America. We’re entitled to our opinions.”
    “Wrong. This is Texas. And my opinion is the only one that counts."
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User
    edited April 2008
    And it's wise to be aware of those justifications.

    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2008
    Yar and I are talking about how anti-abortionists consider their views. Not hard to follow.

    So not-hard to follow, in fact, that no information coming from this semantic argument is new to anyone.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
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