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DRM

124678

Posts

  • devoirdevoir Registered User
    edited May 2008
    You're not going to have a situation where any digital media is free to be copied and ripped whenever you want, however you want, not without serious changes to the kinds of games you'll end up with.

  • ShujaaShujaa Registered User
    edited May 2008
    My hate for DRM is outweighed by my love for PA.

    buyin dis

    Balefuego wrote: »
    When I play FPS games I just assume my dude is inside a tiny plane and he's sticking his arm out the window with a gun.
  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited May 2008
    devoir wrote: »
    You're not going to have a situation where any digital media is free to be copied and ripped whenever you want, however you want, not without serious changes to the kinds of games you'll end up with.

    We're already in that situation, and yet, somehow, games still sell, and (hopefully) make money. We've never been out of that situation. The only real protection is legal, which is why the game has a EULA drafted by lawyers.
    HH Joel wrote:
    When we set out to make the game, we decided to take a very light handed and straightforward approach to DRM. We did however want to protect ourselves from casual copying of the game or sharing of codes. We were not naive that people who were really bent on playing our game without paying would be able to do so. And so we ended up with the system we have, and we think it strikes a good balance.

    It strikes an almost perfect balance, except for the situation where the activation servers are no longer available. Cover that situation and it'll be complete - the company is protected, and the customers are protected.
    HH Joel wrote:
    Oh, and trust me, when Khoo pinky swears something, he means it.

    Again, I fully understand and appreciate the stand that he is making, and I applaud him for it.

    I checked the box that said "I agree to abide by the terms of the EULA". I gave my word. Why is Robert's word good enough for me (and it is) but my word isn't good enough for him?

    Well, the answer is pretty simple - you don't know me from Adam, and I don't know you, so there's no basis for trust. So lets try this:

    I swear on my father's grave (Sandhills State Veterans Cemetery, Spring Lake, NC) that I will never give away my registration code or allow anyone to have my copy of the code. Now can I have a DRM-free version?

    Yeah, I didn't think so.

    If people's word was reliable, you wouldn't "need" the DRM! I checked the box that said I agree to the EULA, but for some reason I am immediately asked to prove that I am a legitimate customer. What, did I just lie to you? And then I'm asked again. And again. (Four times in all, when I tried to move the game to my desktop from my laptop, and was fiddling with save games).

    Give us the same courtesy we give you. Make it official - put it in the EULA that when (not if) the activation servers are permanently shut off, the code gets fixed so that it has no DRM, or will locally accept a valid registration code. Don't leave your creation in a state where it could die a legal death if things go wrong.

  • devoirdevoir Registered User
    edited May 2008
    aetius wrote: »
    devoir wrote: »
    You're not going to have a situation where any digital media is free to be copied and ripped whenever you want, however you want, not without serious changes to the kinds of games you'll end up with.
    We're already in that situation, and yet, somehow, games still sell, and (hopefully) make money. We've never been out of that situation. The only real protection is legal, which is why the game has a EULA drafted by lawyers.

    Don't be pedantic, you know exactly what I meant. There are provisions in place now to prevent every Tom, Dick and Harry from abusing trust on the part of developers and publishers of all kinds of digital media and copying everything wholesale.

    Do not say that just because piracy is a problem that it means that there is no point to DRM. Look at how the _amount_ of piracy has skyrocketed since the advent of broadband and the ease of access via things like torrent indexing sites.

    If suddenly there was no protection on digitally distributed music, do you think that iTunes would continue to see as many sales, considering the fact you can import your own music library into iTunes?

    How about Steam, are you seriously going to argue that there would be no drop in sales if there was no DRM with Steam (because there is) and there was easy, no-hassle access to those files for everyone on the internet?

    If Microsoft didn't continually try to prevent OS piracy, do you honestly think that they'd have more sales?

  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal Flo-ridaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Why don't they just have us enter our UN/PW on the unlock screen...

    I mean.

    If you BUY the game under an account name, and your serial is assigned to your account, then the only way you are sharing that is if you hand out your UN/PW, and then accounts can just be tracked for activations and you know, some account with 50 activations can be inquired upon.

  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I can see both sides of the argument, but in the end I think it's just a matter of trust.

    The developers and PA need to balance the trust of their customer with protecting their product so they can continue to make games and make money - feed their families, etc. etc. The players, likewise, need to balance their trust of the developer not to dick them over with the want to protect their own rights, to play their own game, in any matter they wish.

    I think there's something that the major anti-DRM people are missing, though. That is, this isn't a normal case. This isn't EA or some other mega-developer cramming some obtrusive and slimy program onto your computer. It's not a faceless company - it's Penny Arcade. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I've been reading this strip for years now - even before registering on the forums and as Tycho and Gabe have said so many times before, it's pretty much one big family. Come on, who doesn't remember when Gabe proposed - or the pictures of when his kid was born? Can anyone deny the subtle, yet noticeable, 'head nod' that occurs when you see some stranger wearing a PA shirt?

    I guess what I'm saying, is that Penny Arcade is not the evil empire. We all need to relax and think, has there EVER been a time that these guys have let us down? Even once?

    Plus, you have Khoo's pinky swear, which I'm willing to bet is more legally binding than most contracts.

    I am in the business of saving lives.

    camo_sig2.png
  • devoirdevoir Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Jasconius wrote: »
    Why don't they just have us enter our UN/PW on the unlock screen...

    I mean.

    If you BUY the game under an account name, and your serial is assigned to your account, then the only way you are sharing that is if you hand out your UN/PW, and then accounts can just be tracked for activations and you know, some account with 50 activations can be inquired upon.

    This is almost the same thing as what they have happening now. But that's not good enough, the hardcore anti-DRM people want no DRM whatsoever, no protection on the software, because they feel they're being treated like criminals.

  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited May 2008
    ;5642741]
    aetius wrote: »
    devoir wrote: »
    You're not going to have a situation where any digital media is free to be copied and ripped whenever you want, however you want, not without serious changes to the kinds of games you'll end up with.
    We're already in that situation, and yet, somehow, games still sell, and (hopefully) make money. We've never been out of that situation. The only real protection is legal, which is why the game has a EULA drafted by lawyers.
    devoir wrote:
    Don't be pedantic, you know exactly what I meant. There are provisions in place now to prevent every Tom, Dick and Harry from abusing trust on the part of developers and publishers of all kinds of digital media and copying everything wholesale.

    As I'm sure everyone at P-A and HotHead understand perfectly, I wasn't being pedantic. Almost everyone who reads P-A is a gamer of some kind; I'd bet 8 out of 10 of us know right now where to go get the cracked version of the game, and the other two can just ask their buddy. Why didn't you? Why didn't I? The provisions are functionally useless, especially in this crowd - not because we are dishonest, but because we are knowledgeable. People are buying the game because they are either A) honest, or B) dishonest but want to support HotHead and P-A. And, in the end, those are the people who are going to pay, and none of the others will, no matter what you do. Which of those groups will the DRM affect? Right, group A. It won't affect the pirates, and it won't affect group B because they use the pirated version. The only people who are shafted by DRM are group A ... the very ones trying to do the right thing.
    Do not say that just because piracy is a problem that it means that there is no point to DRM. Look at how the _amount_ of piracy has skyrocketed since the advent of broadband and the ease of access via things like torrent indexing sites.

    Piracy has been proven to be a problem that is almost completely independent of DRM, despite the millions of dollars that have been poured into it. DRM is provably ineffective. There may be an effect on casual copying (which can also be achieved by a local serial number), but otherwise it does nothing except provide a challenge for pirates - and piss off actual, paying customers. In fact, some people (like myself) argue that it is worse than nothing, because the DRM-free product is superior; the pirates are putting out a better product than the creators. DRM is not a "feature"; games don't sell because they have good DRM, but they do fail because they have bad DRM like Starforce or SecuROM.
    If suddenly there was no protection on digitally distributed music, do you think that iTunes would continue to see as many sales, considering the fact you can import your own music library into iTunes?

    I don't know. Ask them, since they are moving to DRM-free tracks. Or Amazon.com, which is sellling all their mp3s completely DRM-free. Or Nine Inch Nails, who pulled down millions on their DRM-free Ghosts I-IV album. Doesn't look like the sky is falling just yet.
    How about Steam, are you seriously going to argue that there would be no drop in sales if there was no DRM with Steam (because there is) and there was easy, no-hassle access to those files for everyone on the internet?

    You say that like there isn't already easy, no-hassle access to those files. :)

    Steam works because it's a community - it would work without the DRM just as well, I suspect, because it offers a superior product to the raw game - easy downloads, easy patches, a place to meet up with your friends. In fact, they might see more sales if they distributed the games to enough people to get a significant number of conversion sales (people who want to play on-line with their friends).
    If Microsoft didn't continually try to prevent OS piracy, do you honestly think that they'd have more sales?

    You know that Microsoft's dynasty was built on piracy, right? There's only one reason they have the vast majority of OS installations in the world, and it isn't because they sold Windows95 at $100 a copy to people in Russia who make $50 a month. There are far, far more pirated copies of Windows than legit ones in the world. If Microsoft ever figured out how to truly prevent piracy - or even make it a real hassle - they'd go out of business in 80% of the world overnight, because no one out there can afford their prices.

  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Jasconius wrote: »
    Why don't they just have us enter our UN/PW on the unlock screen...

    I mean.

    If you BUY the game under an account name, and your serial is assigned to your account, then the only way you are sharing that is if you hand out your UN/PW, and then accounts can just be tracked for activations and you know, some account with 50 activations can be inquired upon.

    The pirates just delete the checking routines out of the binary file, so none of their copies check in with the server. If you were a casual sharer and gave out your code to someone else, and they gave it to 100 other people, all with legit copies, then they would detect it. But I seriously doubt there is anyone handing out their code, because it is easier to go get the cracked version (no login, no silly questions about your age, etc) and share that if you lean that way.

  • Oz K. FodrotskiOz K. Fodrotski Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    You can't expect the industry to turn on its heel, just because other industries are finally, finally beginning to.

    The Greenhouse approach is a step in the right direction -- sure, perhaps it isn't as progressive as StarDock, but I the former does not have a steady income from a whole selection of other products (as does the latter).

    Progress is forthcoming. Have patience.

  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited May 2008
    MegaMan001 wrote:
    This isn't EA or some other mega-developer cramming some obtrusive and slimy program onto your computer. It's not a faceless company - it's Penny Arcade.

    That would be the comic that's written by a guy who is firmly in group B, the buy-it-but-download-it-anyway-because-the-pirated-copy-is-better crowd?

  • halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Not to be rude, aetius, but it seems you signed up to just bitch about DRM. You have made 8 posts, all in this thread.

    Stop trolling and get over it. If it bothers you that much, don't fucking buy the game.

  • devoirdevoir Registered User
    edited May 2008
    aetius wrote: »
    As I'm sure everyone at P-A and HotHead understand perfectly, I wasn't being pedantic. Almost everyone who reads P-A is a gamer of some kind; I'd bet 8 out of 10 of us know right now where to go get the cracked version of the game, and the other two can just ask their buddy. Why didn't you? Why didn't I? The provisions are functionally useless, especially in this crowd - not because we are dishonest, but because we are knowledgeable. People are buying the game because they are either A) honest, or B) dishonest but want to support HotHead and P-A. And, in the end, those are the people who are going to pay, and none of the others will, no matter what you do. Which of those groups will the DRM affect? Right, group A. It won't affect the pirates, and it won't affect group B because they use the pirated version. The only people who are shafted by DRM are group A ... the very ones trying to do the right thing.

    You have this notion that because people pirate, doesn't mean they won't pay if they aren't forced to. Everyone likes a free ride, it's those people who see it as a victimless crime who make the choice to take that free ride. No one is being shafted by the DRM provided by Greenhouse. There were teething troubles for a couple of days, that's not being shafted.

    Look to this very forum if you want examples of people who have bought this game and would have given it to their friends if they thought they could get away with it. There's a thread about a guy who wanted to know if he could just give out his code without any hassles.
    Do not say that just because piracy is a problem that it means that there is no point to DRM. Look at how the _amount_ of piracy has skyrocketed since the advent of broadband and the ease of access via things like torrent indexing sites.

    Piracy has been proven to be a problem that is almost completely independent of DRM, despite the millions of dollars that have been poured into it. DRM is provably ineffective. There may be an effect on casual copying (which can also be achieved by a local serial number), but otherwise it does nothing except provide a challenge for pirates - and piss off actual, paying customers. In fact, some people (like myself) argue that it is worse than nothing, because the DRM-free product is superior; the pirates are putting out a better product than the creators. DRM is not a "feature"; games don't sell because they have good DRM, but they do fail because they have bad DRM like Starforce or SecuROM.

    Please show me where piracy has been conclusively proven in all cases to be completely independent of DRM. And then show me how that even applies to what I am saying. You're harping on about points that have nothing to do with what I've said. Piracy would be easier if everyone removed DRM which is what you are advocating. I am all for stopping stupid DRM, but you want content providers to throw absolutely everything they have out there and take the hit that people are having a free lunch.

    A local serial number _IS_ DRM. A single internet activation is DRM and is similarly inobtrusive, especially for a game which has been purchased online. Yes, it prevents casual copying, which you so cleverly dismiss as not being part of the piracy problem.

    Target stores do not sell more because they have security cameras, they are there to prevent theft. Your arguments are completely bizarre.
    If suddenly there was no protection on digitally distributed music, do you think that iTunes would continue to see as many sales, considering the fact you can import your own music library into iTunes?

    I don't know. Ask them, since they are moving to DRM-free tracks. Or Amazon.com, which is sellling all their mp3s completely DRM-free. Or Nine Inch Nails, who pulled down millions on their DRM-free Ghosts I-IV album. Doesn't look like the sky is falling just yet.

    NiN is a lazy, poor argument. He did not make the majority of his money off the music sales, he made it off the collector pieces. For the money he made off normal music tracks, he made it easier to get at than piracy and charged a very, very small amount. If he had put that collectors piece on store shelves he would have made exactly the same amount of money. If you are going to try and argue that, it supports my point posts above that said games have to drastically change (i.e. look at Battlefield Heroes) to support your quest for a DRM-free world.

    I guarantee that if you got some indy music artist to do what Trent did, a few people would listen to his free tracks and he might make $1000 out of collectors pieces. Privileged circumstances do not make for rules, they make for exceptions. If Trent had only put out 256khz MP3s on his site for the price of a CD, some people would have bought them, most would have no incentive to buy anything from him because the pirated content would have been the same and the price point would have set them off.

    Amazon only went DRM-free to try and put pressure on Apple. It is still not the primary money source for music publishers. iTunes will never have a totally DRM-free library as long as the record labels have any say over it, unless they pull in additional revenue from some other source to kickback to the record labels. Which again is a total change in their profit model.
    How about Steam, are you seriously going to argue that there would be no drop in sales if there was no DRM with Steam (because there is) and there was easy, no-hassle access to those files for everyone on the internet?

    You say that like there isn't already easy, no-hassle access to those files. :)

    Steam works because it's a community - it would work without the DRM just as well, I suspect, because it offers a superior product to the raw game - easy downloads, easy patches, a place to meet up with your friends. In fact, they might see more sales if they distributed the games to enough people to get a significant number of conversion sales (people who want to play on-line with their friends).

    If it really was all about the community, Steam would be a deadzone, everyone would pirate and use Xfire.

    Give me figures that demonstrate how many people actively use the community features of Steam versus how many just use it to acquire software. Steam works because it is easier than downloading and cracking a game. This is the same reason why iTunes works even with the DRM it has (and will continue to have). They are good, DRM-enabled products that take less effort to acquire the product than it is worth trying to source your illicit files from other places.

    Why do you have a problem with that? Oh, that's right, because of Starforce. Which is not my point.
    If Microsoft didn't continually try to prevent OS piracy, do you honestly think that they'd have more sales?

    You know that Microsoft's dynasty was built on piracy, right? There's only one reason they have the vast majority of OS installations in the world, and it isn't because they sold Windows95 at $100 a copy to people in Russia who make $50 a month. There are far, far more pirated copies of Windows than legit ones in the world. If Microsoft ever figured out how to truly prevent piracy - or even make it a real hassle - they'd go out of business in 80% of the world overnight, because no one out there can afford their prices.

    That is not the bloody point. Jesus man, do you have blinders on?

    Microsoft already alters their profit model based on the relevant market forces in each international market. You have cheaper versions of Windows in India, for example.

    If Microsoft suddenly made all their products not require any license keys, any activations, do you honestly think that they would not see a massive profit loss?

    Answer the damn questions, stop trying to obfuscate the point.

    Your social revolution isn't going to happen. Human nature dictates that unless you have a prior overriding loyalty to something, if you have two choices, one illegal and one legal, with no consequences and no ease-of-use issues between the two, you will get more people going the illegal route. Legal only wins when there is a better selection, a better ease-of-use and 'rewards' for doing so.

    Bad DRM drives people away. DRM that is unobtrusive, prevents casual copying as you call it (yet dismiss at the same time as not relevant). When you add in a good distribution service, good selection, it will win out.

    This is why iTunes is popular and Steam are popular. Otherwise, based on your principles, they'd never get used. You are the vocal minority and frankly I'm glad. I would rather that providers work to provide incentives to prevent piracy (through providing things that cannot be acquired through pirated copies), while still protecting their assets, IP, code, whatever, than for them just to give up and rely on good faith.

    I'm done with this topic, because I've seen all the arguments you'll provide and I'm convinced that your theory on how the world is going to work is based on fundamentally flawed expectations. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who spouts more bullshit on some forum, the proof will be in what happens in the real world.

  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited May 2008
    halkun wrote: »
    Not to be rude, aetius, but it seems you signed up to just bitch about DRM. You have made 8 posts, all in this thread.

    Stop trolling and get over it. If it bothers you that much, don't fucking buy the game.

    I bought the game, and found out afterwards that it was DRM-crippled. That was not a pleasant feeling, and now I'm kind of stuck. So yeah, I'm a little hot under the collar about it.

  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    'Crippled?'

    You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

    I figure I could take a bear.
  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited May 2008
    devoir wrote:
    You have this notion that because people pirate, doesn't mean they won't pay if they aren't forced to. Everyone likes a free ride, it's those people who see it as a victimless crime who make the choice to take that free ride. No one is being shafted by the DRM provided by Greenhouse. There were teething troubles for a couple of days, that's not being shafted.

    I have this notion that the people who paid did so in spite of having the free alternative available. I did, and so did everyone who paid. No one here is under any illusions. The DRM doesn't "force" people to do anything. None of those people who "took the free ride" matter in the least, because they don't pay, and they won't ever pay, no matter how much you try.
    Look to this very forum if you want examples of people who have bought this game and would have given it to their friends if they thought they could get away with it. There's a thread about a guy who wanted to know if he could just give out his code without any hassles.

    And what, exactly, is stopping him from sharing the game? Not the DRM, that's for sure. He asked here first - which means he feels some obligation to make sure he isn't doing something wrong. And I'm sure he was told, in no uncertain terms, that he was not to share his key. That social stigma, that bond, is what is stopping him from sharing. Not the DRM.
    Please show me where piracy has been conclusively proven in all cases to be completely independent of DRM.

    I don't have to. Have a look at our favorite Swedish web site. Is there one single popular game that isn't cracked? To paraphrase Galactica, the war's over. DRM lost.
    And then show me how that even applies to what I am saying. You're harping on about points that have nothing to do with what I've said. Piracy would be easier if everyone removed DRM which is what you are advocating. I am all for stopping stupid DRM, but you want content providers to throw absolutely everything they have out there and take the hit that people are having a free lunch.

    You say piracy would be easier - what, exactly, is easier that 100% free, available games via torrent? Can it get any easier than that? I don't want content providers to throw absolutely everything they have out there, but hey - that's the way it is now! The free lunch buffet is in full swing.
    A local serial number _IS_ DRM. A single internet activation is DRM and is similarly inobtrusive, especially for a game which has been purchased online. Yes, it prevents casual copying, which you so cleverly dismiss as not being part of the piracy problem.

    I dismissed it in this case - only HotHead will be able to tell us how many keys end up getting shared. I doubt very strongly that it's very many. Anyone from HotHead care to comment?

    And the issue at hand is that it is NOT a single activation. Every time you reinstall or move the game, you have to activate it again. That means that the game can "die a legal death", so to speak - the activation servers go offline, and no one can legally play the game any more.
    NiN is a lazy, poor argument. He did not make the majority of his money off the music sales, he made it off the collector pieces. For the money he made off normal music tracks, he made it easier to get at than piracy and charged a very, very small amount. If he had put that collectors piece on store shelves he would have made exactly the same amount of money. If you are going to try and argue that, it supports my point posts above that said games have to drastically change (i.e. look at Battlefield Heroes) to support your quest for a DRM-free world.

    Uh ... ok, thanks for making my point for me. :)
    Amazon only went DRM-free to try and put pressure on Apple. It is still not the primary money source for music publishers. iTunes will never have a totally DRM-free library as long as the record labels have any say over it, unless they pull in additional revenue from some other source to kickback to the record labels. Which again is a total change in their profit model.

    Those same record labels are making their product available DRM-free through a number of other outlets. Pretty soon Apple will be the only ones left pushing DRM, and they've already said they don't want it and don't like it. It's not hard to see the trend.
    Give me figures that demonstrate how many people actively use the community features of Steam versus how many just use it to acquire software. Steam works because it is easier than downloading and cracking a game. This is the same reason why iTunes works even with the DRM it has (and will continue to have). They are good, DRM-enabled products that take less effort to acquire the product than it is worth trying to source your illicit files from other places.

    The only difference of opinion we have here is whether or not the DRM contributes at all to the success of Steam. I said that Steam works because it's a community, AND because they make it easier than downloading and cracking. Both parts contribute, and the DRM does nothing but annoy people who might otherwise be customers.
    If Microsoft suddenly made all their products not require any license keys, any activations, do you honestly think that they would not see a massive profit loss?

    Answer the damn questions, stop trying to obfuscate the point.

    Ok - no, they would not see a massive profit loss. Why? Because their model doesn't change. They are already in the state where all their software is available for free, everywhere. Those who want it free, get it. Those who pay for it don't do so because they are compelled by Microsoft's DRM, they do it because they are honest, or at least feel guilty, or feel threatened by legal action (which happens on a regular basis here in the U.S.). That's their market - and, not surprisingly, they are doing ok. Microsoft is probably the best poster child for the beneficial effects of piracy there has ever been.
    Your social revolution isn't going to happen. Human nature dictates that unless you have a prior overriding loyalty to something, if you have two choices, one illegal and one legal, with no consequences and no ease-of-use issues between the two, you will get more people going the illegal route. Legal only wins when there is a better selection, a better ease-of-use and 'rewards' for doing so.

    I'm not interested in a social revolution. And your point is exactly, totally spot-on. No DRM is necessary, and indeed affects ease-of-use issues directly.
    Bad DRM drives people away. DRM that is unobtrusive, prevents casual copying as you call it (yet dismiss at the same time as not relevant). When you add in a good distribution service, good selection, it will win out.

    I agree, except that you don't need DRM to win out.
    This is why iTunes is popular and Steam are popular. Otherwise, based on your principles, they'd never get used. You are the vocal minority and frankly I'm glad. I would rather that providers work to provide incentives to prevent piracy (through providing things that cannot be acquired through pirated copies), while still protecting their assets, IP, code, whatever, than for them just to give up and rely on good faith.

    Are you honestly arguing that there is a single tune on iTunes that isn't available for free elsewhere? Or that every game on Steam that can be usefully cracked hasn't been? They are already depending on good faith. People bought from iTunes because it was the only legal avenue of purchase at the time, and they stay because the experience is good, and it's easy. It's the same with Steam. It's not because of the DRM, it's in spite of it. Some have already been burned by the DRM, and others avoid it by breaking the law and cracking their music or games.
    I'm done with this topic, because I've seen all the arguments you'll provide and I'm convinced that your theory on how the world is going to work is based on fundamentally flawed expectations. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who spouts more bullshit on some forum, the proof will be in what happens in the real world.

    My expectation is this: those who want to pirate will pirate, and those who want to do the right thing won't pirate. Every game and every song is available on the internet for free, right now, including this one. Where do you stand? Are you a customer, or a pirate? The difference doesn't have anything to do with DRM - it has to do with you.

  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited May 2008
    poshniallo wrote: »
    'Crippled?'

    You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

    crippled:

    2. anything that is impaired or flawed.

    Download the game, install it, authorize it, take it to the beach. Your laptop gets dropped and broken, but you still have the game on your external "downloads" drive. Borrow your wife's laptop, install it, ... but you don't have internet access at the beach. Is there any technical reason the game should not work in that instance? No. Is there any legal reason the game should not work in that instance? No, you own that computer, so it's ok by the EULA. Does it work? No. Why not? Specifically because the DRM will not let it work.

    Most people, I think, would consider this an "impaired or flawed" piece of software if that happened to them. It has happened to me in the past (in a much more annoying circumstance, with much more annoying DRM), which is one reason I am so adamant about this sort of thing. The first time that feeling of helplessness hits you, the ugliness of DRM becomes crystal clear.

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Man let me pretend the most out there situation is the norm which everyone will experience and use it to prove a point
    That is the best way to argue

  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    aetius wrote: »
    Download the game, install it, authorize it, take it to the beach. Your laptop gets dropped and broken, but you still have the game on your external "downloads" drive. Borrow your wife's laptop, install it, ... but you don't have internet access at the beach. Is there any technical reason the game should not work in that instance? No. Is there any legal reason the game should not work in that instance? No, you own that computer, so it's ok by the EULA. Does it work? No. Why not? Specifically because the DRM will not let it work.

    I would say, that if you are that concerned about playing video games while at the beach, you have far greater issues in life than DRM.

    And yes, I registered just to post that you are THAT ridiculous.

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  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Mvrck wrote: »
    aetius wrote: »
    Download the game, install it, authorize it, take it to the beach. Your laptop gets dropped and broken, but you still have the game on your external "downloads" drive. Borrow your wife's laptop, install it, ... but you don't have internet access at the beach. Is there any technical reason the game should not work in that instance? No. Is there any legal reason the game should not work in that instance? No, you own that computer, so it's ok by the EULA. Does it work? No. Why not? Specifically because the DRM will not let it work.

    I would say, that if you are that concerned about playing video games while at the beach, you have far greater issues in life than DRM.

    And yes, I registered just to post that you are THAT ridiculous.

    I kind of hope you hang around because you are awesome.

  • EmrysEmrys Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Soultaker wrote: »
    Right now the EULA is full of restrictions on what your customers can do with the game (you do not own it; you are not allowed to give it to someone else; software activation may be denied without a reason; et cetera). Why does it have to be so onesided? Why can't it be like "you agree to x, y and z, and we promise to p, q, and r"?

    The only official promise (in the sense that it has been written down in a semi-legal document) has been that we can give you $20 which constitutes a final sale and then at some point in time you may allow us to run the game. That's pretty weak.

    You don't understand, man. It's the LAWYERS. The LAWYERS made them do it. Everyone knows no one can argue with LAWYERS.

    I hate to interject into all this love and guts with actual scenarios, but it appears that on Linux at least the current network settings are part of the hardware profile. This means if I move my laptop from location A to location B, it wants me to unlock it again. So I'm pretty sure I've used my 3 "installs" just moving my laptop around. More significantly, if I just am not online it sees that as a different hardware profile and wants me to re-unlock... which I can't do if I'm offline. So forget the beach, I can't play this if my laptop is offline at all.

    But it's all cool. I understand I must be kept honest, and it's all the LAWYERS.

  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Emrys wrote: »
    You don't understand, man. It's the LAWYERS. The LAWYERS made them do it. Everyone knows no one can argue with LAWYERS.

    I hate to interject into all this love and guts with actual scenarios, but it appears that on Linux at least the current network settings are part of the hardware profile. This means if I move my laptop from location A to location B, it wants me to unlock it again. So I'm pretty sure I've used my 3 "installs" just moving my laptop around. More significantly, if I just am not online it sees that as a different hardware profile and wants me to re-unlock... which I can't do if I'm offline. So forget the beach, I can't play this if my laptop is offline at all.

    But it's all cool. I understand I must be kept honest, and it's all the LAWYERS.

    See, now this is an example of DRM not doing what it's supposed to. This would constitute an actual problem. And given how open HH has been with us all here right now, I'm sure if we take a moment to bring it to their attention, it will be fixed.

    The cut and dry system on PC (and I assume Mac) is something I didn't even think about other than the fact I couldn't straight copy/paste my activation code in. God forbid I had to type it. I was extremely inconvenienced by the process.

    If they can fix Linux to perform the same, I will say they have achieved a wholly balanced system that doesn't punish the user for being an honest consumer.

    Edit: And it took us almost 150 posts and nearly a week to come up with one signifigant instance of the DRM not working properly across for independent operating systems.

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  • HH JoelHH Joel Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Emrys wrote: »
    You don't understand, man. It's the LAWYERS. The LAWYERS made them do it. Everyone knows no one can argue with LAWYERS.

    I hate to interject into all this love and guts with actual scenarios, but it appears that on Linux at least the current network settings are part of the hardware profile. This means if I move my laptop from location A to location B, it wants me to unlock it again. So I'm pretty sure I've used my 3 "installs" just moving my laptop around. More significantly, if I just am not online it sees that as a different hardware profile and wants me to re-unlock... which I can't do if I'm offline. So forget the beach, I can't play this if my laptop is offline at all.

    But it's all cool. I understand I must be kept honest, and it's all the LAWYERS.

    See, now this is an example of DRM not doing what it's supposed to. This would constitute an actual problem. And given how open HH has been with us all here right now, I'm sure if we take a moment to bring it to their attention, it will be fixed.

    He's totally right--it shouldn't be doing this! Emrys, do you want to PM me with the details of your testing? We will need to get this fixed and put in the next update!

    Joel

  • mordenkhaimordenkhai Registered User
    edited May 2008
    I downloaded the demo, played it through. I bought the full game, in this case a code to unlock the game, 3 days or so later. After typing it in it accepted the code and 5 hours later I was finished. I didn't really think of the code as DRM near as much as a installation code. Sorry to hear there are folks having issues, very glad to see Hothead people posting. I knew I made the right choice buying this game, not only cause of the PA ties, but because PA would choose a solid group of folks to make their game. Kudos all around, hopefully everyone gets to enjoy their game soon.

  • HH JoelHH Joel Registered User
    edited May 2008
    HH Joel wrote: »
    He's totally right--it shouldn't be doing this! Emrys, do you want to PM me with the details of your testing? We will need to get this fixed and put in the next update!

    Thanks to Emrys (and some others) we have located a bug in the way the Linux build detects hardware IDs on some machines. We are working on a fix right now and will have this included in our next update (due in the next few days).

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    I just want to comment on a couple things here with DRM...

    The notion brought up about Microsoft cleaning up all piracy hurting their visibility is very true....as is the idea of doing away with all of their DRM hurting their sales as well. In the case of MS, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

    And as for the DRM for this game, to be honest, I have the 360 version so I don't even care, but this shit doesn't sound half as ridiculous as what Warden is to WoW. That mother fucker scans your running processes like a peeping asshole. I've tried to find various methods to block that creep from my PC, but so far the closest was the Shadow Driver created for Glider (the bot) and that shit got nuked last week by Blizzard.

  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I just want to comment on a couple things here with DRM...

    The notion brought up about Microsoft cleaning up all piracy hurting their visibility is very true....as is the idea of doing away with all of their DRM hurting their sales as well. In the case of MS, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

    And as for the DRM for this game, to be honest, I have the 360 version so I don't even care, but this shit doesn't sound half as ridiculous as what Warden is to WoW. That mother fucker scans your running processes like a peeping asshole. I've tried to find various methods to block that creep from my PC, but so far the closest was the Shadow Driver created for Glider (the bot) and that shit got nuked last week by Blizzard.

    I was under the impression that Warden and the background downloader only ran from the launcher program WoW used. While Warden is definitely getting into the spyware department Blizzard does have a responsibility to stop cheating and provide fair and balanced play to a LOT of people.

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  • asretasret Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    Man let me pretend the most out there situation is the norm which everyone will experience and use it to prove a point
    That is the best way to argue

    How about this one then:

    I check out the game at work - look over the system requirements(http://www.playgreenhouse.com/game/HOTHG-000001-01/) - and decide to buy it.

    I take it home and install it and it falls flat because I don't have an internet connection at home.

    The DRM system has failed for me.

  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    asret wrote: »
    Lol! wrote: »
    Man let me pretend the most out there situation is the norm which everyone will experience and use it to prove a point
    That is the best way to argue

    How about this one then:

    I check out the game at work - look over the system requirements(http://www.playgreenhouse.com/game/HOTHG-000001-01/) - and decide to buy it.

    I take it home and install it and it falls flat because I don't have an internet connection at home.

    The DRM system has failed for me.

    It probably should be in the system requirements, however, it is in the terms of use on the Greenhouse site:
    Games you download may contain a Digital Rights Management (DRM) System managed by The Greenhouse. The DRM system may communicate over the Internet with the Games in order to prevent illegal or unauthorized use. Please refer to the Privacy Policy for the types of information and details on how we manage the communication of information between the Games and the DRM system.

    http://www.playgreenhouse.com/terms

    It should be noted that the next item on the terms is:
    The Greenhouse is not liable for your dissatisfaction or any damage from the use of the website or the Games purchased from the website. However, despite that legal mumbo jumbo, we are committed to customer service, so please send an email to support@playgreenhouse.com and we'll do our best to get you taken care of.

  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    asret wrote: »
    Lol! wrote: »
    Man let me pretend the most out there situation is the norm which everyone will experience and use it to prove a point
    That is the best way to argue

    How about this one then:

    I check out the game at work - look over the system requirements(http://www.playgreenhouse.com/game/HOTHG-000001-01/) - and decide to buy it.

    I take it home and install it and it falls flat because I don't have an internet connection at home.

    The DRM system has failed for me.

    Please post back after you contact Greenhouse and they say "sorry, you're SOL."

    Because I don't think we'll be reading that post.

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  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    asret wrote: »
    Lol! wrote: »
    Man let me pretend the most out there situation is the norm which everyone will experience and use it to prove a point
    That is the best way to argue

    How about this one then:

    I check out the game at work - look over the system requirements(http://www.playgreenhouse.com/game/HOTHG-000001-01/) - and decide to buy it.

    I take it home and install it and it falls flat because I don't have an internet connection at home.

    The DRM system has failed for me.

    How exactly would you buy it without an internet connection? It's digital distribution only.

    Seriously. Give it the fuck up already. I'm sure there's an orphanage around you that is low on funds and will be closed soon that you would much better spend your time campaigning for.

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  • QuartzQuartz Registered User
    edited May 2008
    To that point, I am well aware that people buying the PA game are more savvy then the average. We are lucky the DRM is as loose as it is and the game doesn't come with hired goons who rifle through your file system and break your knees for shits and giggles.

    I tell you what; you can feel lucky that the game only takes away some of your rights, and I can feel lucky I found out about the DRM before I spent any money. It means I don't get to play the game, which makes me sad, but I don't support an evil company, which makes me happy.

    I don't understand this mentality that "DRM keeps people honest". The honest people have already paid for the product, and don't need to be kept honest. The dishonest people know where the Pirate Bay is, and DRM won't in any way encourage them to give up their evil ways.

    You can make claims like "if it prevents one illegal casual copy from being made, then it is worth it," but that's not actually true. The goal of the company making the game is to make money. Any activation scheme is going to prevent X illegal copies, but it is also obviously going to prevent Y sales (and from what I'm reading here, Y is a pretty big number). If they only ever intend to release one game, then they'll trick some people who don't realize the DRM is there until it's too late and very much reduce Y (while at the same time creating a disenfranchised base of anti-customers), but otherwise they need to take Y into account.

    DRM does very little to prevent piracy, and very much to alienate the people who want to give you money. If *I* were writing a game, I would 100% feel comfortable publishing it without any copy protection, even with digital distribution.

    About the only time a key makes any kind of sense is in a multi-player game where the key can be authenticated with a server before the server will let you get a list of game servers to join. There's very little anyone can do to get around that scheme, and that scheme is not at all restrictive, since the end user can install on as many machines as he or she wants, and can still re-sell the product when he or she is done with it. The only limit such a scheme places on you is that you can only run one copy of the game at a time for every copy you've purchased, which most people who buy the game are probably not going to complain about.

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Erm, Mvrck...

    I'm not saying his theory holds all that weight, but he could buy it at work where he has internet, take the installer home on a flash drive, install it, and when he tries to run it....no go because of his lack of internet connection.

    I doubt that that would be a common problem, but it is a plausible situation.

    Edit: I thought of a better situation after I got up from my desk. How about this, let's say you're flying somewhere, sayyyyy to Seattle, and you're 35 thousand feet in the air. No internet, no way to validate your PA game, no PA game to play. I'd be pretty pissed about that.

    Of course, if planes have internet now, you can disregard my comment but I haven't flown since the first week of September in 2001, sooooo....

  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Erm, Mvrck...

    I'm not saying his theory holds all that weight, but he could buy it at work where he has internet, take the installer home on a flash drive, install it, and when he tries to run it....no go because of his lack of internet connection.

    I doubt that that would be a common problem, but it is a plausible situation.

    Ok, let my try to contextualize it this way:

    I've been working in food service management for 6 years now. Part of that time came from overseeing operations at a major amusement park. Out of a customer base of on average 15-20k per day, I would get no fewer than several dozen calls a day about customer "complaints" that were nothing short of ridiculous attempts to get things for free.

    This is not withstanding that company policy was "if the customer has a complaint, fix it no matter what". Some of the ridiculous stories I've had include

    - I bought this drink and left it with the stroller while we waited in line for the roller coaster for an hour and now it tastes watered down.

    - (At an ice cream stand where the only person working had a shaved head) "Your employee put his hair in my food! (Lady had long blond hair. Said hair in question was blond, and long)

    - Usually about once a week when we had a counterfeit bill used, I would be accused of swapping the bill with the "real" one the customer had used.

    - Many, many, many complaints of "I ordered this and payed for it and didn't get it" even after showing what was ordered on the receipt.


    Now, lets take away the fact that we had cashiers and stand supervisors and myself to deal with most of those complaints. Lets assume that there was just a pile of food out there and a bucket that said "leave $20 and take one plate". Maybe I'm a little jaded, but I feel 100% positive that if that was the case, I could come back at the end of the day and both the pile of the food, the bucket empty. And the only reason the bucket would still be there is because I'd be damn sure to nail it down. We had people swipe and try to walk out of the park with napkin dispensers. Not kids either, grown ups with babies.

    Point of the matter is:

    You can't trust large groups of people. It would be awesome if you can, but you can't. This is people's lively hood here. Every $20 that gets spent goes towards someones paycheck so they can go home at the end of the day and feed their family. It would be foolish for HotHead to not put in some sort of measure of prevention. Hell it would be damn irresponsible to their employees if they didn't.

    I said this before, but all things considered, this is a damn good system and I don't begrudge them for it. If you do, you either need to spend more time out in an environment where you directly deal with customers. You might take a greater understanding of just what you are complaining about then.

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  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Erm, Mvrck...

    I'm not saying his theory holds all that weight, but he could buy it at work where he has internet, take the installer home on a flash drive, install it, and when he tries to run it....no go because of his lack of internet connection.

    I doubt that that would be a common problem, but it is a plausible situation.

    Edit: I thought of a better situation after I got up from my desk. How about this, let's say you're flying somewhere, sayyyyy to Seattle, and you're 35 thousand feet in the air. No internet, no way to validate your PA game, no PA game to play. I'd be pretty pissed about that.

    Of course, if planes have internet now, you can disregard my comment but I haven't flown since the first week of September in 2001, sooooo....

    You don't have to validate every time you play, just on the initial install. So if you've downloaded the game, there is a better than 99% chance that when you install it, you will have the means to verify it.

    Also, we're back to ridiculous scenarios. If DRM prevents you from playing in your normal leisure environment there is an issue with it. Even then, it is a one time thing. You do not need 100% connection to the internet. So the traveling businessman would be unable to play for one flight, if that. Since most airports have Wi-Fi, and some (most?) airlines have some sort of internet access now. Surely more than enough for a quick data transmission. In fact I feel fairly confident that given the quick download and install time, that showing up an hour before your flight using an airports WiFi would be enough to cover all your bases.


    On a separate note: Who the fuck decided to stick an "n" in environment?

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  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Hey I don't particularly give a fuck, I bought the 360 version (which brings it's own issues, but issues I accept). I was just pointing out a flaw in the system.

    Btw, Radiohead sees your bucket+food pile theory and raises you. Granted, they didn't make as much as money as they could have, but they made something.

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2008
    Mvrck wrote: »
    You don't have to validate every time you play, just on the initial install. So if you've downloaded the game, there is a better than 99% chance that when you install it, you will have the means to verify it.

    So wait, it doesnt' validate every time you play, just the first time after install?

    What the fuck are you people crying about then? Hasn't this been common practice with CD keys for about 10 years now?

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hey I don't particularly give a fuck, I bought the 360 version (which brings it's own issues, but issues I accept). I was just pointing out a flaw in the system.

    Btw, Radiohead sees your bucket+food pile theory and raises you. Granted, they didn't make as much as money as they could have, but they made something.

    Only because in his bucket+food pile scenario the assholes can steal back what the decent people paid. Fortunately in our actual scenario this isn't the case. Unless someone is hacking HotHead's IPs. All of them.

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  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hey I don't particularly give a fuck, I bought the 360 version (which brings it's own issues, but issues I accept). I was just pointing out a flaw in the system.

    Btw, Radiohead sees your bucket+food pile theory and raises you. Granted, they didn't make as much as money as they could have, but they made something.


    Actually I completely applaud Radiohead for their actions. However, as has been the topic of many many many conversations on the matter, bands do not make a majority of their money off album sales. They make it off touring, product endorsements, royalties of writing the songs and airplay from such. So the band itself had little to lose and a lot to gain in their method of distribution. Now I'm not really sure what the final contract was, but I bet that their label got an even bigger slice of what money they did make than they would have if they had sold it strictly in hard media.

    Now for a brand new band just starting up, a distribution and sales system like that would be virtual suicide. You are not well known enough for your quality, you don't have headlining tours to rake in money, you don't have the market penetration and notoriety. You're label would dump your ass on the ground the second it was apparent you weren't going to generate a profit.

    Hello HotHead games. Maybe EA or Valve could get away with something like this. Definitely not a newcomer into the field investing an assload of money into a rivaling digital distribution system. Not to mention there are no royalties payed to developers for how many times a person replays their game, versus the royalties payed for someone replaying a song on the radio 10k times a day as it climbs the charts. I really don't think that would ever be an effective strategy in a gaming market.

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  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hey I don't particularly give a fuck, I bought the 360 version (which brings it's own issues, but issues I accept). I was just pointing out a flaw in the system.

    Btw, Radiohead sees your bucket+food pile theory and raises you. Granted, they didn't make as much as money as they could have, but they made something.

    Only because in his bucket+food pile scenario the assholes can steal back what the decent people paid. Fortunately in our actual scenario this isn't the case. Unless someone is hacking HotHead's IPs. All of them.

    I used the bucket to highlight the fact that you will have decent people. You will have assholes. Then you will have the tremendous assholes that look to take away what the decent people have done because "well it should have been free in the first place and the company doesn't deserve it."

    Maybe I was a bit too subtle. But regardless, without putting some sort of validation on a digitally distributed game, PA and Hothead might as well post their bank account info and say "Here, have fun."

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