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DRM

123468

Posts

  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Blizzard removed DRM from Starcraft, Broodwar, and Diablo 2.

    http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=21150&rhtml=true

    Would be great to have PA/HH let us know if they ever intend to ever do the same. Although I imagine this topic is dead and buried.

    yutt on
  • Mustachio JonesMustachio Jones jerseyRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    yutt wrote: »
    Blizzard removed DRM from Starcraft, Broodwar, and Diablo 2.

    http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=21150&rhtml=true

    Would be great to have PA/HH let us know if they ever intend to ever do the same. Although I imagine this topic is dead and buried.

    That's not a removal of DRM so much as it's just an official no cd patch. You still need legit keys to play on Bnet.

    Mustachio Jones on
  • GrathGrath I'm a much happier person these days Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2008
    I really just can't believe that theres people out there that are fans of an internet comic, that bought a game through digital distribution, don't have an active internet connection.

    I mean seriously.. how retarded do you have to be to think anyone will buy that story?

    Nostregar wrote: »
    I just want to jump in and ask a question, I think this is ok since the last post was yesterday.

    To the people who refuse to buy any games with DRM on them, even the relatively lenient DRM that is in this PA game:

    How do you use computers? What OS do you use? If you use OSX or Windows, they're DRM protected. Do you use MS Office? DRM. Basically any decent software I can think of comes with a key of some kind. Sure, you can get free stuff for a lot of things; Open Office, AVG, Zonealarm, etc. But I feel like at some point, you need something you can't get for free and wind up using a DRM covered program.

    I'm not trying to "disprove" anyone, I'm just curious how far this aversion to DRM extends. Is it only in games that you find it unacceptable?

    Honestly the DRM they disapprove of is the one that stops them from stealing games, ones that work are the ones that they really hate.

    Grath on
  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Grath wrote: »
    Honestly the DRM they disapprove of is the one that stops them from stealing games, ones that work are the ones that they really hate.
    Yes, that's definitely it. o_O

    yutt on
  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Yahoo is shutting down its DRM music servers, so users will lose the ability to listen to their legally purchased Yahoo Music shortly. As you recall, the same thing happened to MSN, although they will keep their servers up until 2011.

    But, surely, it would never happen to Penny Arcade and HotHead. Companies always have the foresight to see the end of their business, and paying employees to create a patch to remove DRM is always the first thing in the management's mind as the company shuts down and files for bankruptcy.

    Why don't you guys do the right thing and remove the DRM, so we, your loyal fans and customers, can never be screwed over in this way? How about at least an explicit time table for removal? Say, a year after release, you will patch out DRM forever?

    Our disgust with DRM isn't some fantastical fear, it is based on ever-present real-world scenarios, like this. Please, I understand the need to ensure profits, especially things like zero-day piracy; but you need to understand there are very powerful and legitimate concerns with DRM.

    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080724-drm-still-sucks-yahoo-music-going-dark-taking-keys-with-it.html

    yutt on
  • ttvpttvp Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Sorry yutt, hotsauce and quartz have already won troll of the year.

    But hey, feel free to try again next year when we see more episode(s) of the game, eh? Maybe by then there'll be more things to complain about.

    ttvp on
  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    ttvp wrote: »
    Sorry yutt, hotsauce and quartz have already won troll of the year.

    But hey, feel free to try again next year when we see more episode(s) of the game, eh? Maybe by then there'll be more things to complain about.
    What does this even mean?

    yutt on
  • prh99prh99 Registered User regular
    edited July 2008
    People that want to buy the game will, those that want to pirate it will. The place DRM helps is the "casual pirate" or the unsophisticated user.

    If HotHead folds and doesn't remove the DRM for those that want to continue playing, you can alway get the crack. It was good enough for Ubisoft. ;)

    prh99 on
  • JandaruJandaru New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited July 2008
    Crashtard wrote: »
    ESPECIALLY when you can download the installer, install it at home and use FREE dialup internet to activate the game.

    Wait, what?

    Jandaru on
    0ijlzpptari2.png
  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Cliff Harris (indie developer of Democracy, Democracy 2, and Kudos) did an extensive personal investigation as to why people pirate his games. As a result of this, he is removing DRM from all of his current and future games.
    1) No more DRM

    I only used DRM for one game (Democracy 2) and it's trivial. It's a one-time only internet code lookup for the full version. I've read enough otherwise honest people complain about DRM to see that its probably hurting more than it help's. I had planned on using the same system for Kudos 2, but I've changed my mind on that. I have also removed it from Democracy 2 today. I now use no DRM at all.

    Hey, that sounds just like Rain-Slick! Unfortunately, neither the people at Penny Arcade (who I thought would understand our perspective), nor HotHead, seem to be as responsive as Mr. Harris.

    http://www.positech.co.uk/talkingtopirates.html

    I know I'm talking to a combination of mindless zealot fanboys, and a brick wall here, but oh well.

    yutt on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Oh go fuck yourself
    They don't want to make it easier for people to steal their games. Boo fucking hoo

    Me Too! on
  • MaratanosMaratanos Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    yutt wrote: »
    Yahoo is shutting down its DRM music servers, so users will lose the ability to listen to their legally purchased Yahoo Music shortly. As you recall, the same thing happened to MSN, although they will keep their servers up until 2011.

    But, surely, it would never happen to Penny Arcade and HotHead. Companies always have the foresight to see the end of their business, and paying employees to create a patch to remove DRM is always the first thing in the management's mind as the company shuts down and files for bankruptcy.

    Why don't you guys do the right thing and remove the DRM, so we, your loyal fans and customers, can never be screwed over in this way? How about at least an explicit time table for removal? Say, a year after release, you will patch out DRM forever?

    Our disgust with DRM isn't some fantastical fear, it is based on ever-present real-world scenarios, like this. Please, I understand the need to ensure profits, especially things like zero-day piracy; but you need to understand there are very powerful and legitimate concerns with DRM.

    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080724-drm-still-sucks-yahoo-music-going-dark-taking-keys-with-it.html

    I'd like to take the opportunity that hindsight presents to point out that your example is full of shit. There are two very big holes here, and indeed, both serve to point out that, in point of fact, companies don't actually screw their customers over when they fold.

    1. Yahoo music subscribers will not lose their music at all. It just won't be governed by the same company anymore. Which means that these people will lose absolutely nothing by this shutdown of service.

    2. Yahoo music NON-subscribers will get a refund. Given today's exceedingly competitive market in online music, I seriously doubt they'll lose any money on their end if they want to repurchase elsewhere.

    In other words, Yahoo music's shutdown has done absolutely NOTHING to anybody.

    Maratanos on
  • redfenixredfenix Aka'd as rfix Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    this is the worst thread. i know i'm not making it better by saying so, but damn.

    I feel like I should apologize to Khoo and Hothead for having to put up with some of these tools

    redfenix on
  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Maratanos, yes, after outcry from customers who were unable to migrate, Yahoo offered coupons to Rhapsody's *GASP* DRM-free music store. I guess Yahoo and Rhapsody, and Amazon (and all of the major labels releasing music through them), and Stardock all "want to make it easier for people to steal their" products.

    Or, they understand that many customers, who legitimately purchased their products, don't like to have remote server restricted formats that inherently operate as though the customer is a criminal.

    Also, I am a whiny tool who is full of shit. Thanks for your thoughtful insight guys!

    yutt on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Just shut up
    You do nothing but stir up shit
    Please, stop posting about this, it's getting retarded

    Me Too! on
  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Look, kid.

    You disagree with me, I understand that. Maybe someday you'll be able to coherently explain why you disagree with me. Regardless, I'm not going to stop posting just because it puts you in an Internet rage.

    yutt on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    You call us "fanboy zealots" and then act surprise when we're pissed
    You're a troll
    Get lost

    Me Too! on
  • MaratanosMaratanos Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    yutt wrote: »
    Maratanos, yes, after outcry from customers who were unable to migrate, Yahoo offered coupons to Rhapsody's *GASP* DRM-free music store. I guess Yahoo and Rhapsody, and Amazon (and all of the major labels releasing music through them), and Stardock all "want to make it easier for people to steal their" products.

    Or, they understand that many customers, who legitimately purchased their products, don't like to have remote server restricted formats that inherently operate as though the customer is a criminal.

    Also, I am a whiny tool who is full of shit. Thanks for your thoughtful insight guys!

    I'm not trying to say DRM is awesome here. It's not. All I'm trying to say is that while no DRM may be good, some DRM isn't necessarily BAD. Most of the cases I've seen where bad stuff happens as a result of it are in cases of much more zealous abuse of DRM than PAA has ever come close to. Sure, you can petition them to remove the DRM, but in cases like this I don't really think it's worth boycotting the game over. Especially if you're in the minority, because that means your boycott will do nothing but deprive you of a game.

    Maratanos on
  • yuttyutt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Perhaps you dislike it for different reasons than I do.

    When I pop in my DVD of Aliens, I don't have to send a remote request to 20th Century Fox asking permission to watch it. I don't have to call TOR or Dark Horse to make sure it is alright that I take a book off my shelf.

    Think of all of the classic games that would be lost (other than relying on piracy), if DRM had always been the gaming industry standard. Hell, there are only a handful of games that wouldn't be affected if such were the case. This entire generation of PC gamers is relying on the hope cracked EXEs exist in the future. That's absurd, and unacceptable.

    Does any company "plan" to go out of business and shut down their servers? Do you think Flagship Studios intended to shut down? Of course not.

    The whole point of being against DRM is, as a consumer, is that you have to look our for yourself. These companies are not doing it for you. They are trying to make a profit, understandably, but that shouldn't come at the expense of you and I. If I purchase a product, it shouldn't be crippled simply because some unknown heathen somewhere is going to pirate it.

    I'm not renting Rain-Slick, I bought it. I shouldn't have to ask permission to play. I shouldn't have to rely on the DRM server being up in 20 years.

    yutt on
  • GrathGrath I'm a much happier person these days Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2008
    you know you should also boycott the forums.

    Grath on
  • MaratanosMaratanos Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    yutt wrote: »
    Perhaps you dislike it for different reasons than I do.

    When I pop in my DVD of Aliens, I don't have to send a remote request to 20th Century Fox asking permission to watch it. I don't have to call TOR or Dark Horse to make sure it is alright that I take a book off my shelf.

    Think of all of the classic games that would be lost (other than relying on piracy), if DRM had always been the gaming industry standard. Hell, there are only a handful of games that wouldn't be affected if such were the case. This entire generation of PC gamers is relying on the hope cracked EXEs exist in the future. That's absurd, and unacceptable.

    Does any company "plan" to go out of business and shut down their servers? Do you think Flagship Studios intended to shut down? Of course not.

    The whole point of being against DRM is, as a consumer, is that you have to look our for yourself. These companies are not doing it for you. They are trying to make a profit, understandably, but that shouldn't come at the expense of you and I. If I purchase a product, it shouldn't be crippled simply because some unknown heathen somewhere is going to pirate it.

    I'm not renting Rain-Slick, I bought it. I shouldn't have to ask permission to play. I shouldn't have to rely on the DRM server being up in 20 years.

    You do have a certain point, it must be said. God knows it's hard enough even FINDING old games, let alone what would happen if we had to worry about being able to play them at all.

    However, I still think someone is seriously looking at things the wrong way if they decide to not play something NOW just because they might not be able to play it in 10-20 years. As a wise woman once said, "I'm not so afraid of losing something that I'm not going to try to have it."



    Side-note, though. You AREN'T purchasing the game. In point of fact you're purchasing a license to a game. In practical terms, this means that they can really set their terms however they damn well please and if you don't like them you have to take them to court, which isn't really worth your money. It's not pretty and I don't like it, but fundamentally speaking that's how things work these days.

    Maratanos on
  • lilBlilB Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The first time I cracked DRM was when I was trying to install Starcraft on a POS old Pentium box that I used to own and it wouldn't work right with my horrible caddy loaded CD-ROM drive. From there it just gets easier.

    Now I crack all the games I own simply because I'm too lazy to stick the CD in every time I want to play. It's inconvenient to me and unnecessary.

    I just hit the limit for activations on this Penny Arcade game. The limit is 3 activations and then it will no longer recognize the key. It tells you to email them for help. I have 3 operating systems on my PC and I installed the game on each one. I bought myself a new iMac and now I can't play this game on my new computer. Oh well, a few minutes and I will solve the problem myself. I am capable of doing this and I don't feel bad about doing it either. Why? Because I paid for this software. They got my money. I'm not going to waste my time complaining and begging for a new activation key. Its easier to fix it myself.

    If you consumers are feeling any DRM woes I suggest you all do the same. If you paid for it you have the right to enjoy it the way you want to. In time you will find that it's easier.

    I download music. If I like it I buy the CD because I want to own a copy of it. I enjoy the artists hard work and they deserve my money. I will not buy DRM protected music. I probably wouldn't enjoy is so much if I had to worry about not being able to listen to something I paid for. I think it's waste of CPU time to decode the super duper high tech (and completely bypassable) encryption that's designed to stop me from stealing something I already own.

    BTW, I switched to MAC because I just don't feel like asking Microsoft permission to reinstall my OS. MAC OS has no CD keys and you can reinstall it as many times as you want. Simplicity.

    lilB on
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    not that I really care, but why install it 3 times on one machine?

    Xaquin on
  • lilBlilB Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Come to think of it, there was really no reason I guess I wanted to see how it ran on each OS (Linux, Mac, Windows)

    I like to screw around with stuff :P

    lilB on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    aetius wrote: »
    I pinky swear that we will not screw you.
    halkun wrote:
    Having personally met Khoo at a comic signing, this quote alone is more weight than what I have seen multi-billion dollar companies "promise".

    Seriously, I believe and trust Robert, even though I don't know him from Adam. But the agreement is not with Robert; the agreement is with Greenhouse, HotHead Games, and P-A. These are corporate entities that can be bought and sold, and the people in them leave and new people are hired (or not). Things change; they always do.

    Good luck buying out a private company, which I'm sure HH, Greenhouse, and PA all are. The only way you 'buy' them would be for them to willingly sell themselves.

    See also: Bungie when they split became a private company this time, otherwise if they had gone public they would have been bought so fast that it splitting away from MS would have been pointless.

    FyreWulff on
  • EriolEriol Registered User new member
    edited September 2008
    Hello,
    I'm one of those people who tried the Xbox360 version of the game but haven't bought it.

    I find it amusing that the recent posts on the PA home page
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/24/
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/26/
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/29/
    are from various guest writers who posted anti-DRM articles, yet the PA game has DRM.

    PA is sending conflicting messages here. There has got to be a way for PA and HotHead games to profit from their game and not have to resort to any DRM.

    Eriol on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Buy the 360 version
    Voila
    No DRM

    Me Too! on
  • HH VladHH Vlad Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The consoles have more DRM than any other PC option.

    HH Vlad on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Vlad you aren't helping me here
    I hate you

    Me Too! on
  • HH VladHH Vlad Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Join the line up ;)

    I will write something on this topic tomorrow but I have to get to bed . . . .

    HH Vlad on
  • tolimantoliman Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Factoid wrote: »
    Are you giving me permission to crack your game now that I bought it?

    well, you gotta ask.

    after all, DRM is like intelligent design, complete with jesus riding on a dinosaur. you'll take your DRM and like it.

    as to the argument for people buying games without an internet connection, EA/Valve wants to know where you live, and why you're not playing their games.

    you'll make them cry if you don't sign up to their fabulous services and register your games, and let them install what they want. you wouldnt want to make baby EA cry, would you ?

    toliman on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Not all DRM is bad DRM.

    Shock!

    Willeth on
    @vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!
    @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
  • jpvjpv Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Eriol wrote: »
    Hello,
    I'm one of those people who tried the Xbox360 version of the game but haven't bought it.

    I find it amusing that the recent posts on the PA home page
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/24/
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/26/
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/29/
    are from various guest writers who posted anti-DRM articles, yet the PA game has DRM.

    PA is sending conflicting messages here. There has got to be a way for PA and HotHead games to profit from their game and not have to resort to any DRM.

    I didn't read any of the essays as 100% anti-DRM. I also don't see a contradiction, but that's just because I'm a lawyer. ;)

    jpv on
  • EriolEriol Registered User new member
    edited October 2008
    jpv wrote: »
    Eriol wrote: »
    Hello,
    I'm one of those people who tried the Xbox360 version of the game but haven't bought it.

    I find it amusing that the recent posts on the PA home page
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/24/
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/26/
    http://penny-arcade.com/2008/9/29/
    are from various guest writers who posted anti-DRM articles, yet the PA game has DRM.

    PA is sending conflicting messages here. There has got to be a way for PA and HotHead games to profit from their game and not have to resort to any DRM.

    I didn't read any of the essays as 100% anti-DRM. I also don't see a contradiction, but that's just because I'm a lawyer. ;)

    Heh, I would suspect that for an attorney, if it isn't explicitly stated, then it does not count, and it also cannot be implied.

    To me, the tone of the three articles seem to indicate that DRM is problematic and not desired. I still treat these articles as anti-DRM, even if they are not 100% against it (since they acknowledge that publishers still choose whether to include it or not). An article by Stardock's CEO a couple of months ago seems like a reasonable way to avoid using DRM (i.e. calculate revenues based on paying customers rather than total users).

    I agree with HH Vlad. The Xbox 360 version of the game is totally riddled with DRM. That version is tied to the Xbox Live account and the Xbox 360 console. If you downloaded the game on another Xbox 360 machine, you would have to transfer the license over at some point. Otherwise, you have to stay logged into Xbox Live to play the game. Once Xbox 360 /Xbox Live support officially ends, there is no ordinary way to move that game to another machine.

    I treat anything I download on the Xbox 360, PS3, or Wii as a rental. I have no expectations of longevity or portability of downloadable content on such platforms.

    Eriol on
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I thought that Penny Arcade would be the last people to hop on board this 'limited installs' craptrain.

    I was going to buy Spore, then I heard that I could only install it 3 times then had to ask permission to install it again, so I didn't buy it. Same with Far Cry 2. And to my shock, the same applies to the Rain Slick Precipice of DRM.

    The annoying thing is I am sure pretty much everyone here knows that with Limited Installs your guaranteed to a) Lose paying customers and b) Increase piracy. I can get all of the above games without an install limit and unencumbered by DRM _more easily_ that I can get the pay-for versions.

    Anyway I swore never to buy anything with an activation limit so it looks like I won't be buying this game.

    Congratulations! You've lost a sale.

    Meep3D on
  • redfenixredfenix Aka'd as rfix Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    I thought that Penny Arcade would be the last people to hop on board this 'limited installs' craptrain.

    I was going to buy Spore, then I heard that I could only install it 3 times then had to ask permission to install it again, so I didn't buy it. Same with Far Cry 2. And to my shock, the same applies to the Rain Slick Precipice of DRM.

    The annoying thing is I am sure pretty much everyone here knows that with Limited Installs your guaranteed to a) Lose paying customers and b) Increase piracy. I can get all of the above games without an install limit and unencumbered by DRM _more easily_ that I can get the pay-for versions.

    Anyway I swore never to buy anything with an activation limit so it looks like I won't be buying this game.

    Congratulations! You've lost a sale.

    Congratulations! Shut the hell up.

    redfenix on
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    redfenix wrote: »
    Congratulations! Shut the hell up.
    Why? Am I not allowed to express my opinion that the 'gamers gamers game' has exactly the same DRM system as the universally loathed Spore? It's pretty much a given that in a few years time you won't be able to play this game without illegal cracks, and that you are essentially renting it. It's the worst possible kind of DRM you can get yet because it's PA they get a free pass?

    If anything they should be held to a higher standard as they at least should know better!

    I still actually play a lot of my old games, I must have reinstalled Rome Total War at least 20 times (minimum) since I bought it, which means that if it had this DRM (aside from the fact the servers would probably have been turned off) I would have had to phone up to beg permission to play my own game at least 7 times.

    Sod that, and out of principle I refuse to buy any game which indulges in built in obsolescence and treats paying customers like a crook. Sure you tell me to 'Shut up' now, but in five or ten years when you want to play some of your old games from 2008 and find out that pretty much everything you own no longer works (including PA) you'll probably be pretty pissed off.

    Meep3D on
  • GrathGrath I'm a much happier person these days Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    man that dude is missing out on some fun times.

    Grath on
  • GrathGrath I'm a much happier person these days Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    redfenix wrote: »
    Congratulations! Shut the hell up.
    Sure you tell me to 'Shut up' now, but in five or ten years when you want to play some of your old games from 2008 and find out that pretty much everything you own no longer works (including PA) you'll probably be pretty pissed off.

    You cant afford video games anyway man you got to spend all that money on tinfoil. Sure you think you're safe now with your hat but you're going to need to put multiple layers on your roof and walls to be truly safe.

    Grath on
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Grath wrote: »
    Meep3D wrote: »
    redfenix wrote: »
    Congratulations! Shut the hell up.
    Sure you tell me to 'Shut up' now, but in five or ten years when you want to play some of your old games from 2008 and find out that pretty much everything you own no longer works (including PA) you'll probably be pretty pissed off.

    You cant afford video games anyway man you got to spend all that money on tinfoil. Sure you think you're safe now with your hat but you're going to need to put multiple layers on your roof and walls to be truly safe.

    So just to clarify you think that built in obsolescence is perfectly ok, that the DRM in Spore and other such games is fine and that people are so fucking committed to their game that they will pay to man a telephone line and run activation servers for decades after releasing it?

    What sort of fantasy land are you living in that you actually think that the game that you bought and paid for will still work in five to ten years? Because I can pretty much guarantee that it won't.

    Meep3D on
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