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DRM

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Posts

  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    I won't even ever notice unless I install the software on several computers (which is dubious since really, who does their gaming on more than one or two machines?) ... I know somebody is going to come self righteously complain about how they have eleven computers all over their four houses now just to try and make themselves look foolish.

    *ahem*

    I have a desktop. (1 activation)
    That desktop died. My alternate is my family's laptop. (2 activations)
    I fixed my desktop and upgraded some hardware. (3 activations)
    I spend a weekend at my parents' place and use their PC. (4 activations)

    I have installed, for example, TF2 on all of these machines. With activation-based DRM, I'd usually be locked out by step 4 and would have to wait for a while for a response from customer service to give me permission to use the game.

    Even though I know HotHead would have given me a 4th activation, the turnaround time from asking them for a new activation on a weekend and me getting it on a Monday would be longer than the time it takes to play through Episode Two! Of course, with a bigger company, this process would be prolonged.

    I plan to buy a new computer more suitable for gaming next year (5 activations). I'm positive I'll upgrade the hardware on that (6 activations).

    I really don't think my use of software is that crazy. I've never even reformatted any of these PCs! That would send my activation count even higher. Hell, Valve is even promoting this kind of portability with the upcoming Steam Cloud saving my settings and saves to all of these machines in a transparent way! In terms of older games, I've probably installed using Quake 2 disc at least 6 or 7 times over the years too (and not on any friends' machines... only my own).

    Most companies releasing games on PCs are now telling me with their DRM that I can't use the software I buy in the way I'm describing. Unless the software is really cheap, my response is to not buy the software from them.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Shabs wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    I won't even ever notice unless I install the software on several computers (which is dubious since really, who does their gaming on more than one or two machines?) ... I know somebody is going to come self righteously complain about how they have eleven computers all over their four houses now just to try and make themselves look foolish.

    *ahem*

    I have a desktop. (1 activation)
    That desktop died. My alternate is my family's laptop. (2 activations)
    I fixed my desktop and upgraded some hardware. (3 activations)
    I spend a weekend at my parents' place and use their PC. (4 activations)

    I have installed, for example, TF2 on all of these machines. With activation-based DRM, I'd usually be locked out by step 4 and would have to wait for a while for a response from customer service to give me permission to use the game.

    Even though I know HotHead would have given me a 4th activation, the turnaround time from asking them for a new activation on a weekend and me getting it on a Monday would be longer than the time it takes to play through Episode Two! Of course, with a bigger company, this process would be prolonged.

    I plan to buy a new computer more suitable for gaming next year (5 activations). I'm positive I'll upgrade the hardware on that (6 activations).

    I really don't think my use of software is that crazy. I've never even reformatted any of these PCs! That would send my activation count even higher. Hell, Valve is even promoting this kind of portability with the upcoming Steam Cloud saving my settings and saves to all of these machines in a transparent way! In terms of older games, I've probably installed using Quake 2 disc at least 6 or 7 times over the years too (and not on any friends' machines... only my own).

    Most companies releasing games on PCs are now telling me with their DRM that I can't use the software I buy in the way I'm describing. Unless the software is really cheap, my response is to not buy the software from them.


    Somebody didn't read the thread.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • cliffskicliffski Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    It is a destructive piece of software that truly interferes with me,

    so DRM is now accused of sexually molesting gamers?

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    cliffski wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    It is a destructive piece of software that truly interferes with me,

    so DRM is now accused of sexually molesting gamers?

    Epic fail here folks. Quote taken out of context and it still can't be construed to mean what you said.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Shabs wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    I won't even ever notice unless I install the software on several computers (which is dubious since really, who does their gaming on more than one or two machines?) ... I know somebody is going to come self righteously complain about how they have eleven computers all over their four houses now just to try and make themselves look foolish.

    *ahem*

    I have a desktop. (1 activation)
    That desktop died. My alternate is my family's laptop. (2 activations)
    I fixed my desktop and upgraded some hardware. (3 activations)
    I spend a weekend at my parents' place and use their PC. (4 activations)

    I have installed, for example, TF2 on all of these machines. With activation-based DRM, I'd usually be locked out by step 4 and would have to wait for a while for a response from customer service to give me permission to use the game.

    Even though I know HotHead would have given me a 4th activation, the turnaround time from asking them for a new activation on a weekend and me getting it on a Monday would be longer than the time it takes to play through Episode Two! Of course, with a bigger company, this process would be prolonged.

    I plan to buy a new computer more suitable for gaming next year (5 activations). I'm positive I'll upgrade the hardware on that (6 activations).

    I really don't think my use of software is that crazy. I've never even reformatted any of these PCs! That would send my activation count even higher. Hell, Valve is even promoting this kind of portability with the upcoming Steam Cloud saving my settings and saves to all of these machines in a transparent way! In terms of older games, I've probably installed using Quake 2 disc at least 6 or 7 times over the years too (and not on any friends' machines... only my own).

    Most companies releasing games on PCs are now telling me with their DRM that I can't use the software I buy in the way I'm describing. Unless the software is really cheap, my response is to not buy the software from them.


    Somebody didn't read the thread.

    Your flippant response is disappointing in what had been a fairly cordial discussion.

    I am directly referencing the following post:
    HH Joel wrote: »
    I'd like to pipe in and clarify a few things. I know some people have really strong views on this topic.

    1. The limit on the number of installs is solely intended to prevent casual copying of the game and sharing of license codes. If you have more than three machines that you want to play the game on, send an email to support@playgreenhouse.com explaining the situation and we'll up your limit straightaway.

    I have indeed read the thread, so please let me know: what did I miss over the course of the thread? What invalidates my example?

  • lilBlilB Registered User
    edited November 2008
    If you don't like the DRM then there are two steps you need to take.

    Don't buy the game.
    Tell the developer why you won't be buying the game.

    Enough people do that and the developers might think twice about their strategy.

    Whats really sad about all this is that there are a bunch of software pirates out there enjoying free software without any install restrictions at all. Really, its almost like this DRM system rewards stealing.

    I don't care what the install limits are or whatever the restrictions are. I don't see why anybody should have to deal with any of this when we are paying customers, being inconvenienced by silly copy protection methods that do absolutely nothing to prevent piracy.

    I'm off to write a nice letter to Hothead.
    I suggest anyone who feels inconvenienced should do the same.

  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I keep talking about how I like Steam's system, and Gabe Newell himself recently commented on the topic (bold formatting added by me):
    As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't).

    We really really discourage other developers and publishes from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.

    Gabe


    my source:
    http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3171588

    original source:
    http://ih8evilstuff.livejournal.com/16992.html#cutid1

  • prh99prh99 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Shabs wrote: »
    I keep talking about how I like Steam's system, and Gabe Newell himself recently commented on the topic (bold formatting added by me):
    As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't).

    We really really discourage other developers and publishes from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.

    Gabe


    my source:
    http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3171588

    original source:
    http://ih8evilstuff.livejournal.com/16992.html#cutid1




    Seems hypocritical to me, Steam has DRM and Steam's EULA is every bit as onerous as Spore's.
    DRM is demonstrably not stopping pirates, though it does annoy paying customers with arbitrary limits and silly activation schemes.

    If insanity is expecting different results, using the exact same methods then EA and Value etc are insane.

  • xolotlxolotl Registered User
    edited June 2009
    Not to stir up this old viper's nest or anything, but the DRM in OtRSPoD1 suddenly got in my way last week when I decided to re-play the game, and apparently enough hardware's changed on my computer in the meantime to cause me to require a re-auth, which has been failing for me since then.

    That DRM problem itself would be annoying enough, but coupled with Hothead/Greenhouse's recent apparent total lack of communication, it becomes a highly frustrating situation. It's been a week since my original email, with another email having been sent inbetween, and I've not heard a peep about it from them.

    If you're going to have a system in-place which has the possibility of actively getting in the way of your paying customers, I'd hope that you'd at least have the staffing necessary to deal with the problems as they come in, in a prompt manner. Is there any chance of getting some push for this from the PA side of the house? It's been really disillusioning reading all the threads at the Greenhouse forums which go unanswered, and all the reports of people saying that they simply never hear back from the support teams... When there's bugfixes and problems with possibly-obscure hardware, I can see how it may take awhile to work through that kind of stuff, but activation issues? That stuff really needs to get taken care of right away.

    (And of course in that paragraph, when I say "you" I mean "Hothead/Greenhouse," not the PA folks here...)

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    but problems like that would never happen with them

  • TeburninatorTeburninator Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I blame the schools.

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Try e-mailing someone over at Penny Arcade

    I think their e-mails are on the homepage
    Don't forget that the DRM is with Greenhouse, which is a partnership between PA and HH... and I can assure that even if HH goes away, which isn't happening, you've got us to take care of the situation.

    And PA ain't goin' anywhere.

  • xolotlxolotl Registered User
    edited June 2009
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Try e-mailing someone over at Penny Arcade
    Yeah, I figured I'd give this some time first. I had seen that Robert had replied previously in this thread, so I figure it may be watched. I'd rather not pester folks needlessly.

  • xolotlxolotl Registered User
    edited June 2009
    Well, seems I just needed to wait one more day. That, or someone's done some talking-to behind the scenes. I am glad that it's taken care of now, but I stand by my statements about staffing. One week is far too long for something like authentication problems; if you're going to have DRM, you've got to be able to deal with things promptly. Anyway, hopefully I won't have to worry about it again.

  • DeciheximalDeciheximal Registered User
    edited June 2009
    I'm glad I saw this thread; thanks for warning me about the online activation DRM in this game. This had been a game I wanted to buy someday; now I won't.

    To me, the only acceptable DRM is one that lets me continue to install and play freely as long as I want after the apocalypse, as the only human survivor left on Earth, assuming my hard drives somehow keep going bad and I need to scavenge a different one every few days or so. To that end, I'd only tolerate a code wheel / key, or a physical dongle that I could carry with me for machine after machine.

  • TubeTube Says some shit Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited June 2009
    Good to know you're not stark, raving insane.

  • lilBlilB Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Haven't checked back in a while... These games still have the silly DRM?

  • TubeTube Says some shit Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited February 2010
    They still have DRM. They will have DRM for the forseeable future.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Isn't it like, not even terribly onerous DRM?

    steam_sig.png
  • lilBlilB Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Isn't it like, not even terribly onerous DRM?

    Just an install limit, last I checked.

  • TubeTube Says some shit Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited February 2010
    Which they'll refill if you send them an email. Or you can get it on Steam without DRM. Or Greenhouse. Or PS3. Or 360.

  • prh99prh99 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Which they'll refill if you send them an email. Or you can get it on Steam without DRM. Or Greenhouse. Or PS3. Or 360.

    Maybe it's because I haven't used Steam in a couple years, but don't all their games come wrapped in encryption and isn't being logged in required to play them?

    Going from GreenHouse to Steam is like going from the pan to the fire in terms of DRM onerosity. They've just taken some of the sting out with the addition of a community.

  • TubeTube Says some shit Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited February 2010
    If you find Steam to be excessive DRM I don't think we're going to be able to find a middle ground here. The game has DRM. It has several options for which DRM you'd prefer, but there isn't any no-DRM version for sale. If you feel that strongly, buy the game on a console.

  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Not that I agree with the anti-DRM crowd, but the consoles still have pretty restrictive rights management. It's just that it's expected.

    I do think, though, that the DRM for the 360 is the best system out there at the moment.

    @vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!
    @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2010
    prh99 wrote: »
    Which they'll refill if you send them an email. Or you can get it on Steam without DRM. Or Greenhouse. Or PS3. Or 360.

    Maybe it's because I haven't used Steam in a couple years, but don't all their games come wrapped in encryption and isn't being logged in required to play them?

    Going from GreenHouse to Steam is like going from the pan to the fire in terms of DRM onerosity. They've just taken some of the sting out with the addition of a community.

    Steam has an offline mode that doesn't require a connection

  • prh99prh99 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    prh99 wrote: »
    Which they'll refill if you send them an email. Or you can get it on Steam without DRM. Or Greenhouse. Or PS3. Or 360.

    Maybe it's because I haven't used Steam in a couple years, but don't all their games come wrapped in encryption and isn't being logged in required to play them?

    Going from GreenHouse to Steam is like going from the pan to the fire in terms of DRM onerosity. They've just taken some of the sting out with the addition of a community.

    Steam has an offline mode that doesn't require a connection

    Thank you for pointing that out. :)

    If you find Steam to be excessive DRM I don't think we're going to be able to find a middle ground here.

    My comment was directed primarily at the characterization of Steam as a DRM free option i.e "Or you can get it on Steam without DRM".

    No need to try and reach middle ground, I already bought episode one. I had no expectation that my post would effect the way the games are being offered. :)

  • grendlegrendle Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    SO, I used to be agnostic about DRM, thinking it was ok, a necessary evil, but I just took a long flight, on which I intended to play Episode 1, only to find on firing up my laptop that my copy require re-activation for some reason. Of course, I could not re-activate it on the flight, so I was SOL. This demonstrated to me very clearly how DRM harms actual customers, but not pirates. So, no more buying DRM games for me.

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
  • ThePieThePie Registered User
    edited February 2011
    I feel that we've pretty much summed up why DRM is broken right now. I agree with the calmer heads here--there are lots of DRM options. But that's like having lots of options for how you're going to get quarantined. It has been proved time and again that DRM just hurts customers, not pirates. They laugh about it.

    I am the shred monkey. I do the shredding. Do you have a problem with that?
    I also find the funny facebook status ideas.
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