Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[WoW] I, for one, welcome our Retribution overlords [Paladins]

DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
edited September 2008 in MMO Extravaganza
Time for new paladin thread!

So paladin roles in WoW have changed a fair bit in the Burning Crusade, with all three specs, Retribution, Protection, and Holy all viable raid specs.

Rest of OP shamelessly stolen from previous one.


What the fuck is a Paladin?

hambig.jpg
Paladins are either defenders of the Holy Light or reformed Naaru kidnappers.

Paladins are a class that is in relatively high demand in the current state of things. With their talents geared towards Holy, they are powerful single-target healers, with good mana efficiency and relatively good longevity (depending on the nature of the fight).
With their talents geared towards Protection, they are outstanding tanks, equal to warriors in almost every way, and also having the added ability to AOE tank effortlessly. However, because of the previous warrior-dominated tanking scene, it is very difficult to be accepted as an equal to a warrior tank as a paladin in many guilds and raids.
Geared towards Retribution, they are capable melee damage-dealers, with a great deal of utility that they bring to the group in additon to their damage, such as the ability to keep up multiple paladin Judgements on the target, an extra paladin blessing (a lifesaver in 5mans when running without a paladin tank or healer, Blessing of Salvation is greatly missed when one is used to it), and the ability to protect others in a pinch with a Blessing of Protection.



Races
Four races can be Paladins:

Humans
Dwarves
Draenei*

Blood Elves*

*Requires the Burning Crusade Expansion

While you should pick the race with animations and voices you like, players who like to pick their race on their racial ability should consider the following. Human paladins get a nice bonus to Expertise when wielding Swords or Maces, which are the weapons that paladin tanks always wield, and the weapons that Retribution paladins sometimes wield. Means little as Holy. Draenei get a nice +hit aura for their party members, which is nice for any paladin, especially Retribution. Extra party utility to complement their already considerable arsenal of it is welcome indeed. Gift of the Naaru scales with +healing, and so is a very powerful spell for Holy paladins, as it gives them a much needed heal over time spell. Finally, Dwarves get Stoneform, which basically acts a second Divine Shield for magical debuffs.

If you are Horde, Blood Elf is your only option. Mana Tap and Arcane Torrent are pretty nice racials, though. As Retribution or Protection, you typically have a very small mana pool, a full stack of Mana Tap can often restore 10% of your mana. As Holy, it is less useful, but Arcane Torrent is a great PvP skill.

Talents

Holy: Once the only tree paladins would ever be interested in, it is nevertheless still a huge component of all paladins, particularly those that raid or PvP. Not as strong as once it was, paladin healers are still masters of powerful, single-target heals, mana efficiency combined with sheer output of healing, and utility in the form of Greater Blessings.

Protection (aka Prot): This is our tanking tree, dedicated to increasing our threat generation as well as our damage mitigation. Paladin tanking is right in its prime right now, with a few things here and there that could be improved, but mostly we are in very good shape, equal MTs for warriors, with the only main reason to use a warrior over a paladin being that a warrior specced for tanking can't do much else other than tank whereas a paladin can handle gimmicks of encounters such as AOE elements.

Retribution (aka Ret): Retribution is still a very much underused tree, but is definitely on the way up, with most raids trying to find room for at least one Retribution paladin, due to their ability to keep up multiple judgements at once from many different paladins, and of course bringing an extra blessing, limiting the need for extra paladin healers (of which too many can be limiting).

Resources
Holy:
TBA
Protection:
www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin
Retribution:
TBA


PvE Specs

Holy (thanks to Little Jim)
Protection
Retribution (thanks to Sabremau)

These aren't perfect, but simply exist to give you an idea of specs solely focused on PvE.

PvP Specs: thanks to Little Jim

Holy
Protection
Spoiler:
Retribution

Dhalphir on
Tube-san wrote:
I apologise for my rudeness desu.
«13456772

Posts

  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Why do a lot of paladins choose the improved devo aura in the protection tree and skip precision?

    A.jpg
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    ive always taken both spell warding and pursuit of justice. never had a problem so far. Precision to me seemed basically pointless since it doesnt really help worth shit due to the fact that its such a small percent. If i miss with avengers shield i just judge righteousness to give myself some threat and then tell my dps to hold for a sec so i can build a little more threat since it missed. Kings i wouldnt drop though because its an awesome blessing and even most holy paladins dont spec for it. Of all the paladins in my guild, only myself and one holy paladin have it.

    sig-919109.jpg
  • Soviet WaffleSoviet Waffle Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Precision is great.

    The only skill it doesn't affect is consecrate (Minus the first hit). I guess Seals, but if they miss they're a resist.
    It's 3% threat on all skills that aren't consecrate essentially (This is wrong, it may be more, but I know that number is not right, but it's at least 3 unless you're hit capped)

    League of Legends: Studio
  • SabreMauSabreMau Still featuring glasses. Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Well, Seal of Vengeance can be resisted, Blood and Command are basically extra melee attacks (can be missed/dodged/parried, but not resisted), and Righteousness is guaranteed as long as the melee swing connects.

    1yrxP.jpgmXcqC.jpgtYRm1.jpg
  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Brainleech wrote: »
    Why do a lot of paladins choose the improved devo aura in the protection tree and skip precision?

    I didn't choose improved devo. Mainly because I'm grinding aoe and therefore have Retri aura up. Also I think the +chance to block is alot more useful than the +armour from the imp. aura.

    I haven't skiped percision.... and doubt I will for a while. That extra 3% chance to hit really helps when doing orange/red quests.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • Nova_CNova_C Sniff Sniff Snorf Beyond The WallRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Brainleech wrote: »
    Why do a lot of paladins choose the improved devo aura in the protection tree and skip precision?

    They do? Man. When I tank I typically have retri aura up except on bosses and the tiny improvement in mitigation isn't worth it when I'd rather have the extra threat generation on groups - which means imp dev aura is wasted points.

    Besides, you can't build threat if you can't hit the boss and precision assists with that.

  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Brainleech wrote: »
    Why do a lot of paladins choose the improved devo aura in the protection tree and skip precision?

    Sounds like something that a player who is not particularly good or smart might do.

  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    Brainleech wrote: »
    Why do a lot of paladins choose the improved devo aura in the protection tree and skip precision?

    Sounds like something that a player who is not particularly good or smart might do.

    Something I originally did =p Before the fine folks of this thread set me right ofc.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Bro!Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Brainleech wrote: »
    Why do a lot of paladins choose the improved devo aura in the protection tree and skip precision?

    Generally only Holy Paladins would do that.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    once you get into later 25mans Ret aura becomes largely useless and Devotion Aura is preferred for hard-hitting bosses

    its not worth improving it with talents but it is worth using

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Oh yeh, with the mention of ret aura.... if someone in my party gets hit and ret aura does damage to the mob. Will that be threat be generated by me because it's my buff or will the threat be generated by the person who got hit because the buff damage is coming from them? (if that even makes sense O_o)

    I was told it'd be the latter case by someone who apearently had a 70 pally on another server >.>;;

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I honestly don't know but Thorns works the latter way and its all considered damage reflection i think

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • elgatoelgato Registered User
    edited June 2008
    I don't want to hijack the thread, but is this thread only for PVE Paladin chat? Or can I cry right now about arenas. (2v2 bracket)

  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Hmmn, may have to look around/experiment with it a bit then. Thanks though =)

    EDIT:
    I don't want to hijack the thread, but is this thread only for PVE Paladin chat? Or can I cry right now about arenas. (2v2 bracket)

    PvP too as far as im aware =p

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    What's so gimped about pally healers in the Arena? I remember basically coming upon a lot of Warrior/Paladin teams and saying "well, that's a loss" before the game even started.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Bro!Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    elgato wrote: »
    I don't want to hijack the thread, but is this thread only for PVE Paladin chat? Or can I cry right now about arenas. (2v2 bracket)

    We'll make a corner for you and DisruptorX2. <img class=" title=":lol:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

  • SabreMauSabreMau Still featuring glasses. Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    What's so gimped about pally healers in the Arena? I remember basically coming upon a lot of Warrior/Paladin teams and saying "well, that's a loss" before the game even started.
    Paladins used to be the arena healers. Then everyone learned how to fight paladin healers and shut them down with relative ease, and so they plunged to the bottom, far below priests and druids.

    1yrxP.jpgmXcqC.jpgtYRm1.jpg
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Unless every team runs with a dispeller now, I really don't see how Paladins dropped to the bottom of the barrel for Arena Healing.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    The problem with Paladins is that they're so easy to lockdown. A Druid can throw his HoTs and still heal while being CC'd, a Priest can HoT, shield or PoM, and Shaman have Earth Shield. Druids and Shaman also have Nature's Swiftness to throw an instant big heal the moment they regain control of their character. A Paladin has none of this.

  • SabreMauSabreMau Still featuring glasses. Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Flash of Light is (usually) too weak for arena-level burst damage, and Holy Light is 2.5 seconds of standing motionless in one place. So, yeah.

    1yrxP.jpgmXcqC.jpgtYRm1.jpg
  • PierceNeckPierceNeck Simi Valley, CARegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Are the Midnight Leggaurds out of H.SP good pants for a Ret Paladin? Just in terms of newly 70, no badges, etc. etc.

  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    The OP is so informative! ...a year ago!

    I like how you bothered to update the prot website links section though and put your shitty blog link before Maintankadin.

    Organichu wrote:
    she's some sort of malevolent creature who bores through this world into the next using hatred and suffering as her fuel
  • PierceNeckPierceNeck Simi Valley, CARegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I like how the specs are done without an actual linked build.

  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    The problem with Paladins is that they're so easy to lockdown. A Druid can throw his HoTs and still heal while being CC'd, a Priest can HoT, shield or PoM, and Shaman have Earth Shield. Druids and Shaman also have Nature's Swiftness to throw an instant big heal the moment they regain control of their character. A Paladin has none of this.

    Well that sucks. I just x-ferred my 70 pally over to my buddies server and was having quite a bit of fun healing in BG's and such, and was hoping to one day maybe get some Arena in for him. I'm not going to even attempt it though if it's going to be nothing but a frustrating mess like it is on my other characters.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    You guys are brutal. Give him some time to update the OP before going apeshit on him.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    You guys are brutal. Give him some time to update the OP before going apeshit on him.

    But where's the fun in that?

    Also, the Holy leveling build from the old thread is horrible.

  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    You guys are brutal. Give him some time to update the OP before going apeshit on him.

    It's just because he does this shit all the time. I'm being mean today, I know. BUT HE DESERVES IT.

    Organichu wrote:
    she's some sort of malevolent creature who bores through this world into the next using hatred and suffering as her fuel
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    You guys are brutal. Give him some time to update the OP before going apeshit on him.

    But where's the fun in that?

    Also, the Holy leveling build from the old thread is horrible.

    You're right of course. Carry on.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    The problem with Paladins is that they're so easy to lockdown. A Druid can throw his HoTs and still heal while being CC'd, a Priest can HoT, shield or PoM, and Shaman have Earth Shield. Druids and Shaman also have Nature's Swiftness to throw an instant big heal the moment they regain control of their character. A Paladin has none of this.

    Well that sucks. I just x-ferred my 70 pally over to my buddies server and was having quite a bit of fun healing in BG's and such, and was hoping to one day maybe get some Arena in for him. I'm not going to even attempt it though if it's going to be nothing but a frustrating mess like it is on my other characters.

    Paladins are highly functional in 5s. The main problem comparing pvp healers now is that resto druids and disc/holy priests are among the top ~3 most successful class types among all bracket sizes. That includes non-healing class types.

    Paladins tend to be roughly as successful in 5s as the other healers. That opinion is based off of generalizations from looking at charts plotting class quantities against their ratings.

    Paladin/warlock and paladin/warrior can be kind of successful in 2s as well. You'll probably instantly lose to some popular teams, though.
    Varethius wrote: »
    Oh yeh, with the mention of ret aura.... if someone in my party gets hit and ret aura does damage to the mob. Will that be threat be generated by me because it's my buff or will the threat be generated by the person who got hit because the buff damage is coming from them? (if that even makes sense O_o)

    I was told it'd be the latter case by someone who apearently had a 70 pally on another server >.>;;

    Reflective damage from thorns/ret aura generates threat for the guy taking damage. The latter guy was correct.

  • ThomamelasThomamelas Bro!Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    You guys are brutal. Give him some time to update the OP before going apeshit on him.

    He has 20 mins. 20 mins and we break out the locks and the socks.

  • SabinXLSabinXL Registered User
    edited June 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Unless every team runs with a dispeller now, I really don't see how Paladins dropped to the bottom of the barrel for Arena Healing.

    I'm not sure why you're even asking this, you played a rogue.

    The paladin has no instants to speak of. This severely limits their maneuverability and healing capability when smart players with stuns/interrupts are on them. Things like mind numbing and curse of tongues make healing with your primary heal (holy light) even more arduous. Flash of Light's throughput is far too low to even consider useful and any kind of competitive arena play, and our failsafe skills have been reduced in effectiveness by a large margin.

    In short, a lot of what the paladin used to be able to bring to the table has either been mitigated through patch changes or countered by players who actually realized how easy it is to shut down a paladin. Doesn't matter how long you live if you can't land a heal on your allies. You can thank Blizzard for trying to make the Paladin a hybrid at the start and going back on what they said, effectively making Holy Paladins piss poor clerics in their current form.

  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    SabinXL wrote: »
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Unless every team runs with a dispeller now, I really don't see how Paladins dropped to the bottom of the barrel for Arena Healing.

    I'm not sure why you're even asking this, you played a rogue.

    The paladin has no instants to speak of. This severely limits his maneuverability and healing capability when smart players with stuns/interrupts are on them. Things like mind numbing and curse of tongues make healing with your primary heal (holy light) even more arduous. Flash of Light's throughput is far too low to even consider useful and any kind of competitive arena play, and our failsafe skills have been reduced in effectiveness by a large margin.

    In short, a lot of what the paladin used to be able to bring to the table has either been mitigated through patch changes or countered by players who actually realized how easy it is to shut down a paladin. Doesn't matter how long you live if you can't land a heal on your allies.

    Yeah I played a Rogue, and in 2's and 3's it was almost impossible to lock down a Pally. Why? Bubble! Even if I caused them to pop it early, the free reset usually gives the team enough of an advantage to win the match. (at least in my experience)

    I could sit there stunlock the fuck out of a Paladin, even if they pop a trinket at the wrong time (before I land my KS), they still always bubble by the time i've worn them down to less than 10% of their health. During that time, they have been healing themselves, maybe healing their teammates, and their teammates have been focus firing your healer or another DPS.

    The bubble is a free instant "reset", that basically causes everyone that was focus firing the paladin to pull off and essentially start over. Meanwhile, their team has been making progress on wearing you down. So you can either focus fire the plate wearing asshole who gets a free do-over, or try and focus fire a dps over a paladin's healing, which usually ends horrible because the Pally can just throw a bubble on the guy getting FF'd. Either way you are forced into a shitty situation.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • SabreMauSabreMau Still featuring glasses. Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Yeah I played a Rogue,
    Yeah, that'd do it. A paladin against a rogue in a 2v2 situation usually doesn't end well for the rogue's team. But against teams that can bypass a BoP put on a warrior, it's not quite as effective.

    1yrxP.jpgmXcqC.jpgtYRm1.jpg
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2008
    bubble is 12 seconds every five minutes

    which means that once the paladin blows their bubble and they have forbearance, you have more or less won if you have one of: a kick, counterspell, pummel, earth shock, spell lock or a good cycloner

    the only thing that paladins have is mobility (BoF) and a good way to avoid CC (BoSac) but both of those are pretty useless when you are either out of line of sight of your dps buddy and or have your holy school locked down

    th_crabz.png
  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I think the answer here is just go ret for PVP, mirite? (The only paladin with s3 shoulders in my guild did it as ret, heh.)

    Organichu wrote:
    she's some sort of malevolent creature who bores through this world into the next using hatred and suffering as her fuel
  • Little JimLittle Jim __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2008
    i'd say ret is a superior pvp spec than holy at the moment, but it suffers from a lot of the same things holy does, in that it requires super specific team compositions to be effective

    definitely more satisfying in the arenas, though i enjoyed holy in battlegrounds more than anything

    so on another note, since i quit playing till wotlk i'm thinking about leveling holy again

    i can heal and tank effectively as ret but there's something about holy that does a queer rp thing to my mind where i read through all the quests and /flirt with titon fordring

    th_crabz.png
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2008
    What the hell

    This thread title is a lie

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): munkusbeaver
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • Soviet WaffleSoviet Waffle Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    SabreMau wrote: »
    Well, Seal of Vengeance can be resisted, Blood and Command are basically extra melee attacks (can be missed/dodged/parried, but not resisted), and Righteousness is guaranteed as long as the melee swing connects.

    Well, I mean that if your melee swing misses you're not going to have a chance to even proc a seal.

    Edit: Jesus I missed a lot of posts

    League of Legends: Studio
  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    What the hell

    This thread title is a lie

    I think he just did that to get your attention and give you false hope to lure you in =p

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • formatformat Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    does anyone do this 'seal twisting' thing i have heard about?

    You don't know if I am joking or not.
«13456772
This discussion has been closed.