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[WoW] I, for one, welcome our Retribution overlords [Paladins]

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Posts

  • GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The frustration probably stems from the fact that as Tyaera suggested, at the cutting edge (even on a server by server basis) of progression content any advantage is exploited, no matter how slight. A 1% advantage in Warrior tanking over Paladin tanking means that top end guilds will be using Warrior tanks for that fight. In 9/10 fights warriors hold that 1%+ advantage. There is no practical reason to use a pally tank in those situations, other than "we like this guy and want to reward his hard work." At the bleeding edge content, I can't imagine this factors in too heavily. Progression >> all.

    Where this really creates a problem is when second and third tier guilds insist on following the color-by-number "template" created by top tier guilds. They'll see that SK Gaming only uses such and such a tank, and rather than devote any thought to it at all will just follow suit.

    Of course it's only a problem insofar as you allow yourself to be subject to raid leaders who min/max well beyond what is necessary, but the fact remains that any time ANY imbalance exists, it will be exploited. Second fiddle by a millimeter is still second fiddle.

    A lot of paladins are tired of being the token gimmick tank.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    Also, fanatcism isn 't that great in PvP for its point allocation, and you have "OH SHIT" buttons as a pally (salv to be used straight away, and a bubble that isn't tied to Avenging Wrath), so I'd rather take a 6% loss in judgment crit and take two in E4E.


    Keep in mind that you have a % chance equal to your resilience to proc E4E on non-crit spells. I've had it proc numerous times in PvE encounters against spells that can't crit.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
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  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Are you talking about Crusade in that last part?

    And wait what only two blessings?

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    The frustration probably stems from the fact that as Tyaera suggested, at the cutting edge (even on a server by server basis) of progression content any advantage is exploited, no matter how slight. A 1% advantage in Warrior tanking over Paladin tanking means that top end guilds will be using Warrior tanks for that fight. In 9/10 fights warriors hold that 1%+ advantage. There is no practical reason to use a pally tank in those situations, other than "we like this guy and want to reward his hard work." At the bleeding edge content, I can't imagine this factors in too heavily. Progression >> all.

    Where this really creates a problem is when second and third tier guilds insist on following the color-by-number "template" created by top tier guilds. They'll see that SK Gaming only uses such and such a tank, and rather than devote any thought to it at all will just follow suit.

    Of course it's only a problem insofar as you allow yourself to be subject to raid leaders who min/max well beyond what is necessary, but the fact remains that any time ANY imbalance exists, it will be exploited. Second fiddle by a millimeter is still second fiddle.

    A lot of paladins are tired of being the token gimmick tank.

    If you make the difference minimal, such that there is only a 1% difference in equally geared, equally skilled players, then it won't have such a dramatic effect on the 'bleeding edge' of content.

    People will naturally prefer to have people that they like more to have important spots, and if skill CAN make a difference in the tanks (i.e. pally A is more skilled than warrior B) then it can overcome the small difference between the classes.

    Plus if there is such a small difference in between tanks, then there is going to be a lot of number-crunching and disagreements as to who is better/equal and not everyone will buy into the 'iron-clad' logic that tank class A is better than tank class C.

    Also, holy shield should be re-worked to be a talented spell reflect.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
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    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Are you talking about Crusade in that last part?

    And wait what only two blessings?

    I...I specifically said crusade! Specifically! I hate you!

    Might and Wisdom. Protection, Salvation, and Sacrifice are all 'hands' and do not overwrite blessings. And Light has been baked into all pally healing spells.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
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    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    No no you are misunderstanding me. Damnit I hate mornings.

    What I meant was I was confused on this part.

    If you go 3/3 stoicism, I'd reccomend going 2/3 santified seals. Your seals will still come up for dispel against dispel spammers, but they will only go down 4% of the time. And it works out to only a 1% loss in DPS. I'd take a point in E4E if you are doing PvP, and I'd also assume that every warrior is going to take booming voice, and I personally don't like taking talents that someone else will likely have and provide no direct benefit otherwise.

    You could probably go 2/2 E4E and either get 1 in imp ret aura or 1 in kings, for those rare occasions where all your other buffs are covered (since we only have two blessings now, this will happen more than you think)


    So if I drop 1 point out of sanctified seals, I have a single point leftover. I'm wondering where I'm getting those extra points that could go toward 2 E4E and 1 in ret aura or kings? That's what I meant when I asked about Crusade, or maybe you meant Blessing of Might... Shit I dunno i'm still waking up.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Keep in mind that you have a % chance equal to your resilience to proc E4E on non-crit spells. I've had it proc numerous times in PvE encounters against spells that can't crit.
    It's sad to see this getting removed. D:

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    WHAT?!?!?! LINK! I DEMAND CITATION!

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    WHAT?!?!?! LINK! I DEMAND CITATION!
    Oh god. Good luck while I'm at work and the Iron Curtain™ Brand internet filter is in effect.

    I had heard a few months ago that resilience was not going to work in PvE. I don't know if this was ever true or was made untrue or what.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    forty wrote: »
    WHAT?!?!?! LINK! I DEMAND CITATION!
    Oh god. Good luck while I'm at work and the Iron Curtainâ„¢ Brand internet filter is in effect.

    Then at least mention where you heard it from, asshole

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    forty wrote: »
    WHAT?!?!?! LINK! I DEMAND CITATION!
    Oh god. Good luck while I'm at work and the Iron Curtain™ Brand internet filter is in effect.

    Then at least mention where you heard it from, asshole
    I'm busy looking. QQ MOAAAAAAARRRR

    Try this? It's a Google cached page of a WoW forums thread (the only way I can see anything from those forums at work). There's no blue in there that I can tell (page display like a total mess), but the talk seems to be of a resilience nerf:
    I guessed you missed the part where Resilience was destroyed altogether for PvE, for tanking and is not useful at all in wrath?

    So resilience is ruined for tanking

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    That's a lie. Resilience works just fine in PvE.

    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I'm thinking of going with this for 70.

    Should I maybe drop 5/5 str for 5/5 RV?

    It'll be PvE based btw =P

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    shadowane wrote: »
    That's a lie. Resilience works just fine in PvE.

    Hardly useful for MT though imo.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    shadowane wrote: »
    That's a lie. Resilience works just fine in PvE.

    I heard this only effected PvE servers when people were not flagged. As far as I remember those on PvP servers or those on PvE servers who run around flagged will not be affected by the resilience changes.

    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • SabreMauSabreMau Still featuring glasses. Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Which changes? I know my Eye for an Eye has gone off in PvE due to resilience on my PvP server. Is there something new?

    1yrxP.jpgmXcqC.jpgtYRm1.jpg
  • MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    That's a lie. Resilience works just fine in PvE.

    I heard this only effected PvE servers when people were not flagged. As far as I remember those on PvP servers or those on PvE servers who run around flagged will not be affected by the resilience changes.

    No, it's a lie, it's a stupid rumor someone started that isn't and never has been true (not giving you shit just pissed at the person who started it, whomever it may be, obviously)

  • reVersereVerse 'Tis the season to beat Johnny Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Mgcw wrote: »
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    That's a lie. Resilience works just fine in PvE.

    I heard this only effected PvE servers when people were not flagged. As far as I remember those on PvP servers or those on PvE servers who run around flagged will not be affected by the resilience changes.

    No, it's a lie, it's a stupid rumor someone started that isn't and never has been true (not giving you shit just pissed at the person who started it, whomever it may be, obviously)

    The way I understand it, a blue commented on how tanks (Ferals) wouldn't have to rely on resilience to be uncrittable anymore (cuz they get uncrittable from talents) and somehow someone managed to twist that into "resilience won't work in PvE anymore".

  • lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I've tanked as a warrior and as a paladin on beta...and you know what? I don't care if I take more damage, I'm sticking with my paladin. They have made numerous improvements to Warrior AoE tanking, but at the end of the day I still have to fight against pugs. Yes, I don't have as many "gimmicks" as warrior tanks but dammit is it fun tanking as a paladin these days.

    There's still 8 weeks or so for beta pushes to go through. You know what, even though I've been burned bad in the past I'll take my chances and trust that Blizz might fix a couple of things.
    Spoiler:

    EDIT: Thank God I've got some friends that have already "asked" me to roll whatever I want as long as it can tank.

    3DS: 5069-4122-2826 / WiiU: Lionheart-m / PSN: lionheart_m / Steam: lionheart_jg
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    reVerse wrote: »
    Mgcw wrote: »
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    That's a lie. Resilience works just fine in PvE.

    I heard this only effected PvE servers when people were not flagged. As far as I remember those on PvP servers or those on PvE servers who run around flagged will not be affected by the resilience changes.

    No, it's a lie, it's a stupid rumor someone started that isn't and never has been true (not giving you shit just pissed at the person who started it, whomever it may be, obviously)

    The way I understand it, a blue commented on how tanks (Ferals) wouldn't have to rely on resilience to be uncrittable anymore (cuz they get uncrittable from talents) and somehow someone managed to twist that into "resilience won't work in PvE anymore".
    Well, that's all good to hear. The whole rumor was quite believable since Blizzard seems to love nerfing things related to PvP.

    Patch 5.4 wrote:
    First win of the day now awards 150 Conquest Points (up from 100).
    Subsequent wins now awards 75 Conquest Points (up from 50).
    YES! I AM INVINCIBLE!
  • UltrachristUltrachrist Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    So I suffered through 27,000 honor worth of AV's and got myself an S2 greatsword on my pally. Went and started my transfer to the PTR.

    Current build at 70 i'll be trying.
    Level 80 build perhaps? Crusade is a static +6% damage on most enemies so that seemed nice, but really I was just throwing extra points around into random things...

    Those look okay?

    Munkus went over the crusader/E4E/santified seal changes, but I think you're both crazy if you don't get imp. HoJ at 80 (for PvP) 20 sec HoJ CD w/ PvP bonus sounds straight broken.

    ultrachrist2.png
  • ArvoArvo Registered User
    edited September 2008
    How big of a deal you supose this druid thing is about them being uncritable from the start while the other tanks need the gear. I heard that this means that people won't want plate tanks until they're overgeared.

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  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Everyone will be uncrittable by the time it matters (raids and heroics) anyway.

  • ArvoArvo Registered User
    edited September 2008
    815165 wrote: »
    Everyone will be uncrittable by the time it matters (raids and heroics) anyway.

    So then why are they giving it to them?

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  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    So they don't have to make tanking leather anymore.

  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    They want druids rolling on rogue gear me thinks.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • ArvoArvo Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Are they getting some sort of conversion talent to then?

    Vertro.png
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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Conversion of what? Their talent gets rid of any need for defense, which won't be on their gear(main gear at least, perhaps you go 2/3 for the talent and get the rest on rings/amulets). Agility converts to dodge, and their health multiplier supposedly takes care of the stamina need, same with armor.

    In theory.

    rodq.jpg
  • VarethiusVarethius Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Never mind. Septus answered before me =)

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    davecrow.jpg
  • LaurlunaLaurluna Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Primal Tenacity or whichever one increases Stats by 6% is now going to reduce Druids' ability to be crit by 6%. Thus, making them crit immune to PvE boss mobs.

    Full Agi, Stam, and AP gear now. The interesting thing will be to see how much AC a bear can get now, since by doing away with "tank leather", Blizzard will probably do away with gear that has large amounts of its "I-level" points allocated into +armor.

    Being casually elitist in WoW since 2005.
    First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
    "Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
  • ArvoArvo Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Druids still need gear that stacks stam. They don't rely on that health multiplier right now. And if it hasn't changed then I can't see how rogue gear can help them tank.

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  • LaurlunaLaurluna Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    On topic for Paladins now.


    I still can't believe it's been 2 or 3 builds now with Judgements of the Wise being 20% max mana return on Judge, and Blizzard still leaving it 34 points deep in the Ret tree.

    37/0/34 is THE healing build right now. Nothing else even comes close to it for pure spam. Efficency be damned, when I can get 3k mana back every 8seconds, and be wearing shitty PvP gear/gems. I'd love to see what it's capable of Fully PvE-geared.



    Not to mention Divine Plea every 60seconds, and the fact that the heals are still full-strength. 12k Holy Lights, 4k Flash of Lights, and 4-5k Holy Shocks. All crits, mind you. That's without Avenging Wrath or any trinkets popped.

    Being casually elitist in WoW since 2005.
    First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
    "Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Arvo wrote: »
    Druids still need gear that stacks stam. They don't rely on that health multiplier right now. And if it hasn't changed then I can't see how rogue gear can help them tank.
    I'm having no problems whatsoever on my Druid at 80 in heroics wearing Rogue gear, don't worry.

    e: I don't think changing JoTW to 20% base mana would have any negative effect on Ret whilst still making deep Holy look more worthwhile, so they'll prolly go that way.

  • ArvoArvo Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Laurluna wrote: »
    On topic for Paladins now.


    I still can't believe it's been 2 or 3 builds now with Judgements of the Wise being 20% max mana return on Judge, and Blizzard still leaving it 34 points deep in the Ret tree.

    37/0/34 is THE healing build right now. Nothing else even comes close to it for pure spam. Efficency be damned, when I can get 3k mana back every 8seconds, and be wearing shitty PvP gear/gems. I'd love to see what it's capable of Fully PvE-geared.



    Not to mention Divine Plea every 60seconds, and the fact that the heals are still full-strength. 12k Holy Lights, 4k Flash of Lights, and 4-5k Holy Shocks. All crits, mind you. That's without Avenging Wrath or any trinkets popped.

    To many people are undervaluing Beacon. And in order to get that mana return you have to stop healing and attack. I'm not seeing the good in that spec.

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  • MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    So I suffered through 27,000 honor worth of AV's and got myself an S2 greatsword on my pally. Went and started my transfer to the PTR.

    Current build at 70 i'll be trying.
    Level 80 build perhaps? Crusade is a static +6% damage on most enemies so that seemed nice, but really I was just throwing extra points around into random things...

    Those look okay?

    Munkus went over the crusader/E4E/santified seal changes, but I think you're both crazy if you don't get imp. HoJ at 80 (for PvP) 20 sec HoJ CD w/ PvP bonus sounds straight broken.

    It is straight broken and they need to change the PvP set bonus.

  • LaurlunaLaurluna Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Arvo wrote: »
    To many people are undervaluing Beacon. And in order to get that mana return you have to stop healing and attack. I'm not seeing the good in that spec.


    Judgements of the Wise requires you to use 1 GCD to judge wisdom. If timed properly, you'll just do it as you get a Holy Shock crit, so your next Holy Light is instant anyways. Three THOUSAND mana every 8 seconds, if you don't wait and just judge. That's basically non-stop Holy Light spam, in-between Judges and Divine Plea. With a normal (read: 20-25% Holy Crit), your Illumination procs are going to return enough mana that you would be hard-pressed to see your mana dip. Remember that 20-25% BASE crit is very easy to attain, in decent gear. Once you have that, tack on 5% Holy crit from talents, 6% HL and HShock from talents, and then 8% MORE crit from the Ret tree talents.


    Beacon of Light doesn't even come close to comparing with that. It's not even going to touch the HPS currently being put out by a Holy/Ret hybrid. Simply because a BoL Paladin can't chain cast like I can.



    Edit: @ the 20second HoJs. Remember that they are adding a silence mechanic to that. You're going to go immune to that stun in a hurry, if not flat out resist it. I don't doubt that the CD will remain the same, simply because Paladins are basically getting a silence.

    Being casually elitist in WoW since 2005.
    First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
    "Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
  • ArvoArvo Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Oh god no. They brought back this horrible armor skin.

    I don't want to be Birdman Attorney at law.

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  • MgcwMgcw Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I think you mean "brought back this horrible color scheme" some of the Kara crap used to have those colors as Lawbringer before they changed it. Redemption looks fucking awesome, just not when it's yellow and teal, as evidenced by http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/september/8962/set_nax10_paladintank.jpg

  • ArvoArvo Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I hate the helmet and shoulders no matter what color they are. I don't need to fly.

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This discussion has been closed.