did i mention that it would be a necessary thing for contributors to have access to all three core books, or is it an understood thing that this is a given?
So you have a zombie horde at the begining, where your controller drops some Area Effect goodness, feels like a badass, and now that he's broken the back of the horde, the next several zombie encounters are 2 or 3 zombie brutes.
You don't have to tell the players all those other zombies had 1 hp and were just waiting for the wizard to drop some bombs on them. Perception you know.
you really do have a good point though, elketas. it's a lot easier to deal with the bandit scenario because you have the greatest variety of level 1's... Halfling Slinger, Kobold Slinger, Goblin Blackblade, Goblin Cutter, Kobold Minion, Goblin Warrior, and Kobold Skirmisher.
there's also the option of making custom enemies of course... but perhaps for a first try best to stick with the monster manual.
Hmh... perhaps we could mix these? I mean, it could be perfectly logical if the *something* below the mines is restless dead. But then again, we would have another important question. If villagers knew about burial mounds / tomb, why the mine was built on the top of it? Did they even have anything to say on the matter? After all, lords don't listen ramblings of the peasentry. Or did the villagers actually want to have the mine, to hide mounds in plain sight? Perhaps they even were shamed about them, and hoped mine would hide crime that they made in the past?
well, the old mine is of course out of use because of the nasties that were uncovered there a long time ago. the nearby villagers have no recollection that the mine is there... it's very old, difficult to find, and out in the wilderness... a dangerous wilderness which none of the villagers venture into of course because it's too damned dangerous.
PC's pursuing the bandits would be the skill challenge in this case as they tramp through the wilderness (having an encounter with either more bandits or marauding beasts).
the bandits are occupying the mine because their leader fancies himself a treasure hunter and has found out about its location somehow, or has been hired to retrieve some macguffin for a bad guy to appear in a later module. after dealing with the bandit leader the PCs may encounter the piece of evidence that led him to the mines in the first place, which in the second adventure (that takes them from level 2 to 3) this idea could be developed.
or perhaps when they get to the mine they find that not long before the bandit leader managed to find his way into what got the original miners killed in the first place and has already met his doom. the PCs would enter the mine and destroy the undead horrors within (just a single undead encounter here) and then discover whatever macguffin they're going to take back to town to be used as the plot hook during the next installment.
or perhaps when they get to the mine they find that not long before the bandit leader managed to find his way into what got the original miners killed in the first place and has already met his doom.
Or perhaps undead are his primary aim? He wants do something with them, and isn't going allow anything to stop him. Even his "companions" are just pawns that can be sacrificied. Of course, grade A asshole like this should meet gruesome fate.
Perhaps the Bandit Leader has already contacted whatever lies below and is now a cultist for whatever it was(Orcus perhaps, would explain the undead and later adventures could branch into Devils and whatnot in addition to undead/humans). Now hes using a group of human raiders to aqquire resources(and slave labor?) to help clear out the lower levels of the mine, wherein lies a temple to the dark power he now worships.
Perhaps the Bandit Leader has already contacted whatever lies below and is now a cultist for whatever it was(Orcus perhaps, would explain the undead and later adventures could branch into Devils and whatnot in addition to undead/humans). Now hes using a group of human raiders to aqquire resources(and slave labor?) to help clear out the lower levels of the mine, wherein lies a temple to the dark power he now worships.
I actually had that idea, but it doesn't really work on scale of this adventure. Not to mention that even if characters remove bandits from the mine, what prevents new wannabe cultists coming from? Of course, players could somehow activate magical effect that buries dark power.
yeah, i'd agree that it might be a large investment in a dude who gets killed right off the bat (or is possibly even found dead by the PCs).
i'd actually be inclined to have the mine lead no further than that last room. this way the players know that the module is over and that it's time to go back to town and figure what the hell this bandit leader was trying to accomplish. if i ran this for my group, they would of course assume he was a necrophile, but hopefully investigate the situation further at the urging of a local NPC.
perhaps they get just enough evidence off of the dead bandit leader (whether or not they kill him) to have the hook that takes them back to town not only to get a reward, but see what the hell is up with that. it's not clear what the guy was looking for... heck, at this point it doesn't actually matter. they're not going to figure that out until later.
a skill challenge in a later installment might include what they found during this first foray, and then start taking them toward an actual plot.
Horseshoe on
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EvilBadmanDO NOT TRUST THIS MANRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
This is seriously reading like a Resident Evil-esque module for 4e.
That said, I'm going back over the thread and enlisting to assist.
heres a way to add a horde of zombies that aren't pushovers add a few NPCs on the players side to help in the town attack, and have them stay to protect the town or get separtated/killed in the dungeon.
heres my example:
party fights say 2 skeletons and 3 zombies, while NPCs fight double that amount over on the other side of town (in site of the party). if the party is doing good or bad you shift one of the NPCs to help the party or some undead wander over from the other group.
afterward the NPCs stay and protect or come along and get separted by finding 2 tunnels into the dungeon and they take one, party takes other, then you encounter them later either dead/injured or captured maybe even make one of them into a special undead you have to kill, either with or shortly before the big boss of the dungeon
* PC's (who already know each other) arrive/start in a certain town and find out that a local trading concern, "Acquisitions Inc." is in need of assistance.
* C.E.O. Omin Dran tells them he's got a situation with fruit shipments or something from nearby village and to go solve the problem. He'd check it out himself, he explains, but he's a bit busy. (PC's get quest)
* (optional encounter - if having both an EL 3 and EL 4 encounter in one go is a bit much, a low-xp encounter might be had along the way to the farming village to tone down one of these later encounters and still get decent xp.)
* PC's head to village and learn that there is a bandit situation... they learn this of course because the bandits are attacking (EL1 combat encounter). They discover that the bandits have only arrived recently, and have been coming out of the wilderness occasionally to hijack supplies and steal money or other posessions. Some specific things they stole will probably be mentioned. The biggest problem is their leader, a real evil bastard who wears an eyepatch.
* In the wilderness, they come across, or are perhaps ambushed by, a pack of some angry beasts of some kind. Or maybe just one really pissed-off beast. (EL 2 combat encounter)
* The trail gets harder to follow and the PC's must look for clues about the hideout's location (EL 1 noncombat encounter... if they fail this encounter they run into another pack of EL1 bandits)
* The PC's reach the hideout, which is located in what appears to be an abandoned mine. The entrance is guarded by two minions who are talking about how "the boss insisted that he was heading into the back of the mines by himself... wonder what that one-eyed nutcase thinks is in here." etc. If they manage to kill both of the minions without making a racket, they can get the advantage of a surprise round in the next encounter.
* Upon entering, they discover, of course, by more bandits (EL 3 combat encounter). They just might help themselves to the bandit's loot, which is of course stuff they stole from the village. Of course, none of these bandits is missing an eye so that means their leader must be further into the mines.
* Continuing on, they have to navigate through a corridor of traps and lurking creatures (EL 2 combat encounter)
* And finally, at the end of the mines they discover a chamber with some horrible undead things tearing up the corpse of the former Bandit Leader (EL 4 combat encounter).
* After this encounter PCs discover, among some special long-buried treasures or perhaps upon the corpse of the Bandit Leader, a MacGuffin or other plot device that they don't understand yet but will come back into play later.
* The PC's pass through the farming village and get accolades from the locals. If they're nice enough to return the money that was stolen from the village, one of the village elders rewards them with a useful potion or magic item in thanks. (this is to encourage the PC's not to be assholes of course)
* They return to Acquisitions Inc. and are given their reward by Omin Dran... who regards their MacGuffin with a curious look and says: "Interesting..."
* The trail gets harder to follow and the PC's must look for clues about the hideout's location (EL 1 noncombat encounter... if they fail this encounter they run into another pack of EL1 bandits).
I would personally turn failure into something else than combat. How would be misstep into a swamp? Annoying as heck, and although not dangerous, it would waste time and energy. Perhaps even cause flu.
elkatas on
Hypnotically inclined.
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Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
One thought that I had with the lighthouse idea was that the town's on a little cove thing, and the PCs see a ship trying to make it 'round the bend--and then the lighthouse goes out. Whether they do it for money or To Be Nice, they go up to turn it back on. (Not necessarily combat here, a skill challenge isn't a bad idea, either.) They head down to the beach as the ship's coming in, and then they see another ship coming around the bend, on fire.
The ship they've just guided in is full of pirates (undead or otherwise--they may have heard about the town's zombie problem and decided to take advantage), who are ready and willing to thank them for guiding them in via a cutlass between the ribs.
But that other idea someone had about the lighthouse being a temple to Dagon the Fish God or whatever? Ancient beacon against undead evil? I effin' love it.
I'm not at all familar with the American version of D&D but I'm thinking about getting it so I thougth I'd contribute with some brainstorming things.
I think one way you could go is the "razed city theme" you started to discuss earlier.
A grand city was destroyed a score of years ago in some kind of epic conflict. The survivors started to rebuild it but children started to dissappear etc and the city was considerd cursed. Now the dead from all the fallen have started to rise and become a problem for the surrounding hamlets.
The reason an evil city is a good idea is because
a) it contains treasure
b) it has a mysterious evil presence that can seemingly be taken advantage of (free undead?!)
Which means you have both excuses for almost any type of evil or adventuring party/presence to be in the city and a vast number of different vistas for an epic adventure to progress through.
Cities have:
- Harbor (maybe complete with an island which has a ligthouse?)
- Temples
- Parks
- Sewers
- Surrounding forests
- Catacombs
- A keep/palace
- The homes of former mages
- Mines outside the city
- Graveyards
etc.
It doesn't have to be all undead either, things like orcs fleeing into the outer layers of the city to escape an army or other explanations give perfect cover for any type of enemies.
Here is a 5 minute example of plot progression for the above vista:
Lvl 1
PC's find spokesperson for hamlets that are being harried by undead zombies led by a few ghouls, PC's defend hamlet.
Lvl 2
Ghouls escapes at dawn with kidnapped child, goes to a nearby abandoned mine to hide. PC's pursue, finds mine full of goblins. PC's hunt down one ghoul but the other two left through a back entrance. PC's learn that ghouls serve necromancer who is trying to build up a small army for a deeper forray into the city.
Lvl 3
PC find out that the best way into the city is through the old sewer system as the walls and their enchantments are still functional. The sewer entrence lies in the old forrest by the east wall and the only person who could know it's location and how to open it would be the old druid of the forrest.
Lvl 4
Players make their way through the kobold and slime infested sewers into the city.
Lvl 5
The players find the necromancers abode, a merchant palace in the middle of a small park. A small orc warband has allied themselves with the merchant and make camp around the house in exchange for their shaman reciving a few walking dead so that he can controll the other orcs.
The players confront the necromancer and find his journal full of disturbing notes.
CuddlyCuteKitten on
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaow - Felicia, SPFT2:T
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Is this campaign starting at level 1? Because a Ghoul is a 5th level soldier and that's a pretty tough encounter if this occurs at level 2. The PCs are probably likely to kill it, but they'll have at least a couple of bleeding to death members and probably one who is already dead.
I don't have 4E or a group to play with any more but I might be able to lend a hand in the wiki trenches if any ideas come to me. I'll just pop in for now to say that if anyone would like to resurrect or steal ideas from this previous collaborative dungeon design thread for this or a subsequent module, I would be really curious to see how it finishes out.
edit - whoops, I missed Horseshoe's note that collaborators would need the 4E books, which probably makes sense as it looks like things have changed a good bit since I last played seriously (2E). Well, I'll be watching if nothing else.
As I said I'm not familiar with D&D. You could make it wounded to compensate, that could explain why it's "comrades" left it behind.
Usually I make up the story first whenever I create an adventure or campaing because you can allways work on the enemies later and get them towards the rigth level in one way or another.
CuddlyCuteKitten on
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaow - Felicia, SPFT2:T
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
As I said I'm not familiar with D&D. You could make it wounded to compensate, that could explain why it's "comrades" left it behind.
I find it hard to figure if these ghouls are acting with this degree of intelligence they wouldn't just stay behind and rip the PCs to shreds. A group of inexperienced and clearly ham-fisted adventurers following what are actually substantially dangerous undead in 4th edition, don't seem the type to pass up some an easy free meal.
Even wounded it doesn't negate its substantial abilities, good all around stats and probability of killing a few PCs is still very high. Horseshoes progression is more reasonable EL wise, though I am not certain what the obsession with throwing high EL (3-4) level creatures at a level 1 party is. EL 2 is okay if the PCs are level 1, EL 3 is a single final encounter that they have to overcome (Even then...). Are we trying to kill them?
There are allways ways to fix that kind of problem. Either you switch what kind of monster your using if there's a more suitable one avalible, or you change the situation to the players favour or you make a story justification for the ways that the enemies act.
For example, ghouls are still cowardly creatures, rigth? They realise their attack on the villiage has failed once the zombies are dead (there's no reason to actually let them figth the players in the first adventure), grab what they can for their master and make of as the sun is coming up. The villiagers outnumber the ghouls handily and chase them into the mines.
As general confusion breaks out (3 ghouls followed by an angry mob plowing into a goblin mine) the now level 2 players are the only group who manage to stay in contact with the wounded ghoul and track it further down into the mine. They finally corner the creature as the other ghouls have ran ahead and sealed of the backdoor exit, forcing it to figth.
That's one possible way of doing it. I never let rules, abilities or enemies get in the way of story. Some people prefer to do it in other ways and that's fine by me but I prefer to do story first, details later.
* The trail gets harder to follow and the PC's must look for clues about the hideout's location (EL 1 noncombat encounter... if they fail this encounter they run into another pack of EL1 bandits).
I would personally turn failure into something else than combat. How would be misstep into a swamp? Annoying as heck, and although not dangerous, it would waste time and energy. Perhaps even cause flu.
Cool.
I was thinking that the downside of failing the "find the hideout" noncombat encounter would be walking straight into an ambush complete with woodsman-y traps. After this encounter where they start with a disadvantage, they are able to find their way to the hideout.
In your alternative, the downside would be some kind of negative effect on the group, which may cause them to have to turn back to the village or head on a bit impaired. What I think it needs is a way for them to continue on to the bandit's hideout so that the module continues.
* The trail gets harder to follow and the PC's must look for clues about the hideout's location (EL 1 noncombat encounter... if they fail this encounter they run into another pack of EL1 bandits).
I would personally turn failure into something else than combat. How would be misstep into a swamp? Annoying as heck, and although not dangerous, it would waste time and energy. Perhaps even cause flu.
Cool.
I was thinking that the downside of failing the "find the hideout" noncombat encounter would be walking straight into an ambush complete with woodsman-y traps. After this encounter where they start with a disadvantage, they are able to find their way to the hideout.
In your alternative, the downside would be some kind of negative effect on the group, which may cause them to have to turn back to the village or head on a bit impaired. What I think it needs is a way for them to continue on to the bandit's hideout so that the module continues.
Yeah, I think you're right shoe. It'd be nice if the failure led to a roundabout path through the wilderness, but it'd probably feel too much like railroading. Something like going through a swamp they have to traverse - where after X amount of failures they have to start spending healing surges instead of taking the failures.
Sorry I was so jumbled with my last post, I'll have to re-type the idea some other time - maybe the MacGuffin fits into that undead themed temple-lighthouse when the players are a bit higher level and actually have the means to tackle undead.
So do we want to move ahead with Horseshoe's outline?
it needs to be all down on paper so it's of course going to be railroading.
but if it's done well the players may not really notice or care.
No, I was saying, if like, the failed skill challenge led to ANOTHER skill challenge to navigate a swamp, and a failure there led to some other thing, but finally, oh my gosh we stumbled on the bandit's hideout, that would be railroading.
I think our plan as written is fine, and I've set up the index page of the wiki here:
oh, i see now. i'd still like to hear if elk has any ideas on how to keep moving if a skill challenge failure ends up in the swamp, because it might mix things up a bit.
also, it seems like folks are bringing a horror angle to this, which is neat.
the way i've got things mapped out for level 1 to level 2, it can basically go anywhere because the MacGuffin isn't given any plot significance until the next step.
but a rough campaign outline of minimal detail could go something like:
heroic tier - there's undead and other strange things popping up everywhere, and over their first 10 levels the PCs vanquish and get to the bottom of these strange happenings that threaten to swallow the little points of light that remain in their part of the world.
paragon tier - it turns out that these monstrous problems are actually the work of an otherworldly cult or some other evil hand-wringing group, and the PCs must find a way to uncover their mysteries and put a stop to their deeds before they can bring to fruition their plans to lay the entire world to ruin.
epic tier - the nearly-forgotten god-thing that the aforementioned cult worships is persistent and will not stop in his efforts to bring chaos and horror to the universe. the PCs must travel the most dangerous places of the planes to find where he hides and end him. (if we're looking for fish-gods there's always Tharizdun)
getting too far ahead with the idea at the moment of course but just an example of the kinds of stuff we can be thinking about for the next phase as we write our little 5000xp romp.
I think that's all good - but as long as we're planning ahead lets try to focus on scenic, cinematic locales, things that set our adventures apart from the standard run of the mill.
An idea I had:
Imagine a giant keep upside down - with each floor or major terrace a platform suspended by giant chains over a lava flow. Players have to fight their way down, where the BBeg waits on the lowest, smallest platform over a giant river of lava.
Lots of swinging from chains and punting people into the inferno.
Anyway, for now, lets divvy up the parts of the encounters that aren't open for interpretation. I'll start on the first encounter - the one in between the Town and the farming Village. Something that might set up a plot hook down the line? Like, an Owlbear that's already been pelted with signature red arrows and such?
If we make it undead themed, not ALL the enemies have to be undead, not by a long shot.
I'm sure the cult leader would have plenty of still living, more intelligent underlings to do tasks that the zombies simply can not perform. He could have a whole smattering of evil henchmen under him.
Rolling the undead and the bandits into one concept isn't hard at all. A strong but small bandit leader gains renown and gets contacted by some mysterious organization. The organization wants the bandit leader to go to a mine where some dark artifacts still lie and raise an undead army. Bandit leader and his men see this as a great chance to get more powerful and also get an army. The bandits raise an army, and then launch an attack on the nearby town to bolster their army, unfortunately for them our heroes happen to be spending the night there.
Here's how I imagine the general fight/story progression.
+ Players get to town, RP some with the townfolks, night falls and the players decide to spend the night.
+ The players are suddenly awoken by the sound of moaning zombies, and rush outside.
+ First fight, roaming zombies, nothing too crazy. Players escort some of the townfolks to safety.
+ Two of the bandits henchmen have taken up residence in the tower of the city's church. Armed with crossbows, they are keeping the citizens pinned down and hold the key to the city's gate, which they've locked.
+ Party has to fight up through some zombies to the church while the henchmen try to pepper them with arrows.
+Once they are in the church, the henchmen have laid some traps, and the henchmen shoot and scoot until they are cornered and defeated. On the henchmen is the gate key and revealing orders from the bandit leader.
+ Storm clouds start to brew over head, the players know that unless they act fast that they zombies foot prints will be wiped away and they won't be able to track them back to the mines.
+ Some fights on the way to the mine, maybe zombie stragglers or zombie hounds. Or ambushes laid by henchmen.
+ The mines will be a mix of traps, henchmen, zombies, hazards from decay etc. Maybe have a mine cart scene for fun.
What do you guys think? Just a general idea, but I think it would give us alot to play with.
oh, i see now. i'd still like to hear if elk has any ideas on how to keep moving if a skill challenge failure ends up in the swamp, because it might mix things up a bit.
I should have clarified. I actually meant swamp's eye*, which are pretty common here in Finland. Basically, swamp's eye is sinkhole, tiny batch of swamp that is hidden in wet moss and grass. Deepest of these can go even so far as 100 metres below the surface. These holes are easy to notice, but it wouldn't be hard to believe that someone could accidentally step on one. Especially if he is scanning around, watching for potential ambushes. I haven't heard anyone who would have drowned on these, but any item dropped to deeper holes is practically gone if you don't have a scuba gear.
* I'm not sure what is english word is. Probably sinkhole.
I agree with the idea of the bandit encounter leading to an undead scenario in the next mission. Starts out as a generic hunt the bandits down, and continues like that through pretty much the whole scenario. Then, on the bandit leader's corpse, they find a note written in some language they don't know (Draconic is a nice one for this, but I don't know how uncommon it is). They then have to take the note back to the town so that they can get a local sage to translate it. Also, as a hint at the next adventure, a thorough examination of the corpse could reveal early symptoms of some zombi-fying disease.
Once translated, the note reveals the location of an old, sunken keep in a nearby swamp (Insert obligatory Monty Python quote here), that supposedly contains the magical Macguffin +1 or whatever, that the bandits were tasked to obtain (the thefts were to stock up on money for equipment, because the bandit leader went to check the place out and was ambushed by undead). The note doesn't actually tell them what the macguffin is (this is so that it can provide some kind of link to the note's writer). They go into the keep to investigate, and fight all sorts of low-level undead before finding the macguffin (whatever it is), and take it back to town, to try and read up on it.
I would suggest if we include Omin Dran as an NPC that his current venture revolve around some sort of sausage packing business instead of fruit, it being more in keeping with the general "theme" of these boards. :P
delroland on
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"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
I'm surprised this hasn't been pointed out yet, but using level 2, 3, and even 4 creatures will not break an encounter. The XP values scale extremely well. It is also very, VERY easy to adjust the levels of monsters in 4E. Want that Ghoul to be a level one creature? Give me one minute to calculate the changes and another to type it up. Even better, it is also easy to create entirely new creatures. I can easily pump out 5 or more new low-leveled undead in just an hour. No one should feel contrained by doing exactly what's in the monster manual... especially since we haven't thought to include hazards yet.
For instance, the lava pit and swinging chains that were mentioned before are at least a high level Paragon hazard, bumping XP values for those encounter WAY out of the level 1 range. Instant kill for one failed saving through is bad juju for 1st level PCs. Save it for the guys who have a way to avoid that long fall to fiery doom, or at least the ones who can survive it. No reason why we couldn't come up with a Heroic Tier equivalent though.
I've had kind of an idea for a set piece floating around that I'd like to use, where the [relatively low level] PCs are working their way through a mostly natural cave system fighting goblins or whatever, and they find a tunnel that had been hastily and poorly closed up. They open it and crawl down a perfectly cylindrical 10x10 tunnel, eventually stumbling on an immense open chamber with a Purple Worm just chilling out in the middle of it, all coiled up and asleep. Not being stupid, they (very, very quietly) retreat, and eventually get over to the BBG.
Thing is, BBG has about two or three hundred minions in this huge, largely open chasm. So the PCs inevitably end up fighting these dudes, and they're totally outmatched and fucked and oh shit here comes Mr. Purple Worm burrowing down from the ceiling and eating all kinds of bitches. So most of the minions turn their efforts to dealing with the worm while the players finish off the boss, and then have to clean up the Worm.
I dunno, sounds fun. It'd be kinda hard to run unless you abstracted a LOT of stuff though.
Wouldn't be possible until late Paragon Tier, unless you wanted to draft up a Baby Purple Worm or something. Also, most PCs wouldn't retreat, but would try and kill it while it's still asleep. PCs often assume that because an encounter is in the module, it's balanced so they can beat it. They've no real reason to run if they run into a sleeping, unfamiliar monster.
PCs often assume that because an encounter is in the module, it's balanced so they can beat it.
I would support any DM who (with fair warning) savagely broke players of that habit. If you think you can win every fight the game has no tension.
Back when I was going to make a d20 modern campaign, one of the things early on in one of the cities was going to be an enemy tank that the players had no way of removing. The players simply had to work around the tank, and hide from it and run from it if it came to that.
I'm trying to think of some sort of fantasy equivalent. Maybe some kind of animated stone golem set to patrol an large area. Something incredibly tough and strong, but not too bright or fast.
I was looking at that myself, Inquisitor, and I simply settled on having the Orc Warlord make a few appearances early on.
At level 10 he's a significant threat to a low-level party, and it works well for foreshadowing; they'll get to kill him eventually, but for now they mostly have to avoid confronting him.
Wouldn't be possible until late Paragon Tier, unless you wanted to draft up a Baby Purple Worm or something. Also, most PCs wouldn't retreat, but would try and kill it while it's still asleep. PCs often assume that because an encounter is in the module, it's balanced so they can beat it. They've no real reason to run if they run into a sleeping, unfamiliar monster.
I'm sorry, if you run into a very large room with no cover and try to take on a huge creature at level eight you deserve to get slapped the hell down.
Wouldn't be possible until late Paragon Tier, unless you wanted to draft up a Baby Purple Worm or something. Also, most PCs wouldn't retreat, but would try and kill it while it's still asleep. PCs often assume that because an encounter is in the module, it's balanced so they can beat it. They've no real reason to run if they run into a sleeping, unfamiliar monster.
I'm sorry, if you run into a very large room with no cover and try to take on a huge creature at level eight you deserve to get slapped the hell down.
If the players die because they fight through an encounter they can't win, they can learn their lesson while creating new characters.
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You don't have to tell the players all those other zombies had 1 hp and were just waiting for the wizard to drop some bombs on them. Perception you know.
there's also the option of making custom enemies of course... but perhaps for a first try best to stick with the monster manual.
well, the old mine is of course out of use because of the nasties that were uncovered there a long time ago. the nearby villagers have no recollection that the mine is there... it's very old, difficult to find, and out in the wilderness... a dangerous wilderness which none of the villagers venture into of course because it's too damned dangerous.
PC's pursuing the bandits would be the skill challenge in this case as they tramp through the wilderness (having an encounter with either more bandits or marauding beasts).
the bandits are occupying the mine because their leader fancies himself a treasure hunter and has found out about its location somehow, or has been hired to retrieve some macguffin for a bad guy to appear in a later module. after dealing with the bandit leader the PCs may encounter the piece of evidence that led him to the mines in the first place, which in the second adventure (that takes them from level 2 to 3) this idea could be developed.
or perhaps when they get to the mine they find that not long before the bandit leader managed to find his way into what got the original miners killed in the first place and has already met his doom. the PCs would enter the mine and destroy the undead horrors within (just a single undead encounter here) and then discover whatever macguffin they're going to take back to town to be used as the plot hook during the next installment.
Or perhaps undead are his primary aim? He wants do something with them, and isn't going allow anything to stop him. Even his "companions" are just pawns that can be sacrificied. Of course, grade A asshole like this should meet gruesome fate.
I actually had that idea, but it doesn't really work on scale of this adventure. Not to mention that even if characters remove bandits from the mine, what prevents new wannabe cultists coming from? Of course, players could somehow activate magical effect that buries dark power.
i'd actually be inclined to have the mine lead no further than that last room. this way the players know that the module is over and that it's time to go back to town and figure what the hell this bandit leader was trying to accomplish. if i ran this for my group, they would of course assume he was a necrophile, but hopefully investigate the situation further at the urging of a local NPC.
perhaps they get just enough evidence off of the dead bandit leader (whether or not they kill him) to have the hook that takes them back to town not only to get a reward, but see what the hell is up with that. it's not clear what the guy was looking for... heck, at this point it doesn't actually matter. they're not going to figure that out until later.
a skill challenge in a later installment might include what they found during this first foray, and then start taking them toward an actual plot.
That said, I'm going back over the thread and enlisting to assist.
heres my example:
party fights say 2 skeletons and 3 zombies, while NPCs fight double that amount over on the other side of town (in site of the party). if the party is doing good or bad you shift one of the NPCs to help the party or some undead wander over from the other group.
afterward the NPCs stay and protect or come along and get separted by finding 2 tunnels into the dungeon and they take one, party takes other, then you encounter them later either dead/injured or captured maybe even make one of them into a special undead you have to kill, either with or shortly before the big boss of the dungeon
trey
* C.E.O. Omin Dran tells them he's got a situation with fruit shipments or something from nearby village and to go solve the problem. He'd check it out himself, he explains, but he's a bit busy. (PC's get quest)
* (optional encounter - if having both an EL 3 and EL 4 encounter in one go is a bit much, a low-xp encounter might be had along the way to the farming village to tone down one of these later encounters and still get decent xp.)
* PC's head to village and learn that there is a bandit situation... they learn this of course because the bandits are attacking (EL1 combat encounter). They discover that the bandits have only arrived recently, and have been coming out of the wilderness occasionally to hijack supplies and steal money or other posessions. Some specific things they stole will probably be mentioned. The biggest problem is their leader, a real evil bastard who wears an eyepatch.
* In the wilderness, they come across, or are perhaps ambushed by, a pack of some angry beasts of some kind. Or maybe just one really pissed-off beast. (EL 2 combat encounter)
* The trail gets harder to follow and the PC's must look for clues about the hideout's location (EL 1 noncombat encounter... if they fail this encounter they run into another pack of EL1 bandits)
* The PC's reach the hideout, which is located in what appears to be an abandoned mine. The entrance is guarded by two minions who are talking about how "the boss insisted that he was heading into the back of the mines by himself... wonder what that one-eyed nutcase thinks is in here." etc. If they manage to kill both of the minions without making a racket, they can get the advantage of a surprise round in the next encounter.
* Upon entering, they discover, of course, by more bandits (EL 3 combat encounter). They just might help themselves to the bandit's loot, which is of course stuff they stole from the village. Of course, none of these bandits is missing an eye so that means their leader must be further into the mines.
* Continuing on, they have to navigate through a corridor of traps and lurking creatures (EL 2 combat encounter)
* And finally, at the end of the mines they discover a chamber with some horrible undead things tearing up the corpse of the former Bandit Leader (EL 4 combat encounter).
* After this encounter PCs discover, among some special long-buried treasures or perhaps upon the corpse of the Bandit Leader, a MacGuffin or other plot device that they don't understand yet but will come back into play later.
* The PC's pass through the farming village and get accolades from the locals. If they're nice enough to return the money that was stolen from the village, one of the village elders rewards them with a useful potion or magic item in thanks. (this is to encourage the PC's not to be assholes of course)
* They return to Acquisitions Inc. and are given their reward by Omin Dran... who regards their MacGuffin with a curious look and says: "Interesting..."
* To Be Continued, roll credits.
I would personally turn failure into something else than combat. How would be misstep into a swamp? Annoying as heck, and although not dangerous, it would waste time and energy. Perhaps even cause flu.
The ship they've just guided in is full of pirates (undead or otherwise--they may have heard about the town's zombie problem and decided to take advantage), who are ready and willing to thank them for guiding them in via a cutlass between the ribs.
But that other idea someone had about the lighthouse being a temple to Dagon the Fish God or whatever? Ancient beacon against undead evil? I effin' love it.
I think one way you could go is the "razed city theme" you started to discuss earlier.
A grand city was destroyed a score of years ago in some kind of epic conflict. The survivors started to rebuild it but children started to dissappear etc and the city was considerd cursed. Now the dead from all the fallen have started to rise and become a problem for the surrounding hamlets.
The reason an evil city is a good idea is because
a) it contains treasure
b) it has a mysterious evil presence that can seemingly be taken advantage of (free undead?!)
Which means you have both excuses for almost any type of evil or adventuring party/presence to be in the city and a vast number of different vistas for an epic adventure to progress through.
Cities have:
- Harbor (maybe complete with an island which has a ligthouse?)
- Temples
- Parks
- Sewers
- Surrounding forests
- Catacombs
- A keep/palace
- The homes of former mages
- Mines outside the city
- Graveyards
etc.
It doesn't have to be all undead either, things like orcs fleeing into the outer layers of the city to escape an army or other explanations give perfect cover for any type of enemies.
Lvl 1
PC's find spokesperson for hamlets that are being harried by undead zombies led by a few ghouls, PC's defend hamlet.
Lvl 2
Ghouls escapes at dawn with kidnapped child, goes to a nearby abandoned mine to hide. PC's pursue, finds mine full of goblins. PC's hunt down one ghoul but the other two left through a back entrance. PC's learn that ghouls serve necromancer who is trying to build up a small army for a deeper forray into the city.
Lvl 3
PC find out that the best way into the city is through the old sewer system as the walls and their enchantments are still functional. The sewer entrence lies in the old forrest by the east wall and the only person who could know it's location and how to open it would be the old druid of the forrest.
Lvl 4
Players make their way through the kobold and slime infested sewers into the city.
Lvl 5
The players find the necromancers abode, a merchant palace in the middle of a small park. A small orc warband has allied themselves with the merchant and make camp around the house in exchange for their shaman reciving a few walking dead so that he can controll the other orcs.
The players confront the necromancer and find his journal full of disturbing notes.
edit - whoops, I missed Horseshoe's note that collaborators would need the 4E books, which probably makes sense as it looks like things have changed a good bit since I last played seriously (2E). Well, I'll be watching if nothing else.
Usually I make up the story first whenever I create an adventure or campaing because you can allways work on the enemies later and get them towards the rigth level in one way or another.
I find it hard to figure if these ghouls are acting with this degree of intelligence they wouldn't just stay behind and rip the PCs to shreds. A group of inexperienced and clearly ham-fisted adventurers following what are actually substantially dangerous undead in 4th edition, don't seem the type to pass up some an easy free meal.
Even wounded it doesn't negate its substantial abilities, good all around stats and probability of killing a few PCs is still very high. Horseshoes progression is more reasonable EL wise, though I am not certain what the obsession with throwing high EL (3-4) level creatures at a level 1 party is. EL 2 is okay if the PCs are level 1, EL 3 is a single final encounter that they have to overcome (Even then...). Are we trying to kill them?
For example, ghouls are still cowardly creatures, rigth? They realise their attack on the villiage has failed once the zombies are dead (there's no reason to actually let them figth the players in the first adventure), grab what they can for their master and make of as the sun is coming up. The villiagers outnumber the ghouls handily and chase them into the mines.
As general confusion breaks out (3 ghouls followed by an angry mob plowing into a goblin mine) the now level 2 players are the only group who manage to stay in contact with the wounded ghoul and track it further down into the mine. They finally corner the creature as the other ghouls have ran ahead and sealed of the backdoor exit, forcing it to figth.
That's one possible way of doing it. I never let rules, abilities or enemies get in the way of story. Some people prefer to do it in other ways and that's fine by me but I prefer to do story first, details later.
Cool.
I was thinking that the downside of failing the "find the hideout" noncombat encounter would be walking straight into an ambush complete with woodsman-y traps. After this encounter where they start with a disadvantage, they are able to find their way to the hideout.
In your alternative, the downside would be some kind of negative effect on the group, which may cause them to have to turn back to the village or head on a bit impaired. What I think it needs is a way for them to continue on to the bandit's hideout so that the module continues.
Yeah, I think you're right shoe. It'd be nice if the failure led to a roundabout path through the wilderness, but it'd probably feel too much like railroading. Something like going through a swamp they have to traverse - where after X amount of failures they have to start spending healing surges instead of taking the failures.
Sorry I was so jumbled with my last post, I'll have to re-type the idea some other time - maybe the MacGuffin fits into that undead themed temple-lighthouse when the players are a bit higher level and actually have the means to tackle undead.
So do we want to move ahead with Horseshoe's outline?
it needs to be all down on paper so it's of course going to be railroading.
but if it's done well the players may not really notice or care.
No, I was saying, if like, the failed skill challenge led to ANOTHER skill challenge to navigate a swamp, and a failure there led to some other thing, but finally, oh my gosh we stumbled on the bandit's hideout, that would be railroading.
I think our plan as written is fine, and I've set up the index page of the wiki here:
http://criticalfailures.com/wiki/H1/Index
also, it seems like folks are bringing a horror angle to this, which is neat.
the way i've got things mapped out for level 1 to level 2, it can basically go anywhere because the MacGuffin isn't given any plot significance until the next step.
but a rough campaign outline of minimal detail could go something like:
heroic tier - there's undead and other strange things popping up everywhere, and over their first 10 levels the PCs vanquish and get to the bottom of these strange happenings that threaten to swallow the little points of light that remain in their part of the world.
paragon tier - it turns out that these monstrous problems are actually the work of an otherworldly cult or some other evil hand-wringing group, and the PCs must find a way to uncover their mysteries and put a stop to their deeds before they can bring to fruition their plans to lay the entire world to ruin.
epic tier - the nearly-forgotten god-thing that the aforementioned cult worships is persistent and will not stop in his efforts to bring chaos and horror to the universe. the PCs must travel the most dangerous places of the planes to find where he hides and end him. (if we're looking for fish-gods there's always Tharizdun)
getting too far ahead with the idea at the moment of course but just an example of the kinds of stuff we can be thinking about for the next phase as we write our little 5000xp romp.
An idea I had:
Imagine a giant keep upside down - with each floor or major terrace a platform suspended by giant chains over a lava flow. Players have to fight their way down, where the BBeg waits on the lowest, smallest platform over a giant river of lava.
Lots of swinging from chains and punting people into the inferno.
Anyway, for now, lets divvy up the parts of the encounters that aren't open for interpretation. I'll start on the first encounter - the one in between the Town and the farming Village. Something that might set up a plot hook down the line? Like, an Owlbear that's already been pelted with signature red arrows and such?
I'm sure the cult leader would have plenty of still living, more intelligent underlings to do tasks that the zombies simply can not perform. He could have a whole smattering of evil henchmen under him.
Rolling the undead and the bandits into one concept isn't hard at all. A strong but small bandit leader gains renown and gets contacted by some mysterious organization. The organization wants the bandit leader to go to a mine where some dark artifacts still lie and raise an undead army. Bandit leader and his men see this as a great chance to get more powerful and also get an army. The bandits raise an army, and then launch an attack on the nearby town to bolster their army, unfortunately for them our heroes happen to be spending the night there.
Here's how I imagine the general fight/story progression.
+ Players get to town, RP some with the townfolks, night falls and the players decide to spend the night.
+ The players are suddenly awoken by the sound of moaning zombies, and rush outside.
+ First fight, roaming zombies, nothing too crazy. Players escort some of the townfolks to safety.
+ Two of the bandits henchmen have taken up residence in the tower of the city's church. Armed with crossbows, they are keeping the citizens pinned down and hold the key to the city's gate, which they've locked.
+ Party has to fight up through some zombies to the church while the henchmen try to pepper them with arrows.
+Once they are in the church, the henchmen have laid some traps, and the henchmen shoot and scoot until they are cornered and defeated. On the henchmen is the gate key and revealing orders from the bandit leader.
+ Storm clouds start to brew over head, the players know that unless they act fast that they zombies foot prints will be wiped away and they won't be able to track them back to the mines.
+ Some fights on the way to the mine, maybe zombie stragglers or zombie hounds. Or ambushes laid by henchmen.
+ The mines will be a mix of traps, henchmen, zombies, hazards from decay etc. Maybe have a mine cart scene for fun.
What do you guys think? Just a general idea, but I think it would give us alot to play with.
I should have clarified. I actually meant swamp's eye*, which are pretty common here in Finland. Basically, swamp's eye is sinkhole, tiny batch of swamp that is hidden in wet moss and grass. Deepest of these can go even so far as 100 metres below the surface. These holes are easy to notice, but it wouldn't be hard to believe that someone could accidentally step on one. Especially if he is scanning around, watching for potential ambushes. I haven't heard anyone who would have drowned on these, but any item dropped to deeper holes is practically gone if you don't have a scuba gear.
* I'm not sure what is english word is. Probably sinkhole.
Once translated, the note reveals the location of an old, sunken keep in a nearby swamp (Insert obligatory Monty Python quote here), that supposedly contains the magical Macguffin +1 or whatever, that the bandits were tasked to obtain (the thefts were to stock up on money for equipment, because the bandit leader went to check the place out and was ambushed by undead). The note doesn't actually tell them what the macguffin is (this is so that it can provide some kind of link to the note's writer). They go into the keep to investigate, and fight all sorts of low-level undead before finding the macguffin (whatever it is), and take it back to town, to try and read up on it.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
For instance, the lava pit and swinging chains that were mentioned before are at least a high level Paragon hazard, bumping XP values for those encounter WAY out of the level 1 range. Instant kill for one failed saving through is bad juju for 1st level PCs. Save it for the guys who have a way to avoid that long fall to fiery doom, or at least the ones who can survive it. No reason why we couldn't come up with a Heroic Tier equivalent though.
Thing is, BBG has about two or three hundred minions in this huge, largely open chasm. So the PCs inevitably end up fighting these dudes, and they're totally outmatched and fucked and oh shit here comes Mr. Purple Worm burrowing down from the ceiling and eating all kinds of bitches. So most of the minions turn their efforts to dealing with the worm while the players finish off the boss, and then have to clean up the Worm.
I dunno, sounds fun. It'd be kinda hard to run unless you abstracted a LOT of stuff though.
I would support any DM who (with fair warning) savagely broke players of that habit. If you think you can win every fight the game has no tension.
Back when I was going to make a d20 modern campaign, one of the things early on in one of the cities was going to be an enemy tank that the players had no way of removing. The players simply had to work around the tank, and hide from it and run from it if it came to that.
I'm trying to think of some sort of fantasy equivalent. Maybe some kind of animated stone golem set to patrol an large area. Something incredibly tough and strong, but not too bright or fast.
At level 10 he's a significant threat to a low-level party, and it works well for foreshadowing; they'll get to kill him eventually, but for now they mostly have to avoid confronting him.
I'm sorry, if you run into a very large room with no cover and try to take on a huge creature at level eight you deserve to get slapped the hell down.