Getting "sick to the stomach" is definitely over the top, but does any guy really enjoy thinking about their girlfriend's other partners, much less in detail? Whether or not they've had sex before isn't a big deal in the slightest--just enjoy the time you have with her. She has a past, just like you, get over it and love her for what she is: a person, just like you.
For most, it's just a touch of jealousy. It's a known human flaw, not really a huge deal unless people start taking drastic measures.
I think this is the important point to get. He seems to just feel more uncomfortable than most people would about it, and that's ok as long as he deals with it maturely, and from what he's said, it seems that he does.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Getting "sick to the stomach" is definitely over the top, but does any guy really enjoy thinking about their girlfriend's other partners, much less in detail? Whether or not they've had sex before isn't a big deal in the slightest--just enjoy the time you have with her. She has a past, just like you, get over it and love her for what she is: a person, just like you.
For most, it's just a touch of jealousy. It's a known human flaw, not really a huge deal unless people start taking drastic measures.
I think this is the important point to get. He seems to just feel more uncomfortable than most people would about it, and that's ok as long as he deals with it maturely, and from what he's said, it seems that he does.
Yeah, I get the feeling that Faces is dealing with it pretty well. I'd be the first person to admit that I'm sorta the jealous type (I blame my Italian genes), but no fucking way am I gonna let that get in the way of a relationship. That's just wrong, not to mention it's a twisted way to think: here I am getting all worked up about a girl's past relationships, while I've done the exact same?
No thanks, I like to think that I'm a little more mature than that.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
Also, "I feel sick because you slept with someone else before me" is alot different then "Actively thinking about you having sex with someone else makes me sick"
You guys are going in to his paragraph like "Let's see what kind of sick mysoginistic fundy shit I can pull out of this sick mysoginistic fundy's post" instead of "What is this guy trying to communicate"
Well a follow up statement by dark that I have quoted above mentions if women aren't pristine they have a revolving door between their legs so yeah he seems to have a lesser opinion of the females.
Woah woah woah, Double_Faces and darklite_x are two completely different people. Either I'm misinterpreting what's going on, or you are. Double is the guy who doesn't like it if his girlfriend previously fucked other dudes, and darklite is the revolving vagina man.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
That his current girlfriend just happens to be a virgin and he likes that? He probably didn't go up to her and say "Are you a virgin?" and then start liking her after that.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
So you're attributing negative characteristics to him that he hasn't explicitly implied, even though he has been honest about his feelings on the matter?
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
On the other hand, it's stupid to give a guy shit for something that is completely beyond his control and that he's managing in the most mature way he can given his feelings.
Getting "sick to the stomach" is definitely over the top, but does any guy really enjoy thinking about their girlfriend's other partners, much less in detail? Whether or not they've had sex before isn't a big deal in the slightest--just enjoy the time you have with her. She has a past, just like you, get over it and love her for what she is: a person, just like you.
For most, it's just a touch of jealousy. It's a known human flaw, not really a huge deal unless people start taking drastic measures.
I think this is the important point to get. He seems to just feel more uncomfortable than most people would about it, and that's ok as long as he deals with it maturely, and from what he's said, it seems that he does.
Yeah.
Because they're his "feelings" doesn't mean that it's impossible to discern the underlying causes for such feelings, though. They're symptomatic and have to come from somewhere, albeit not from a rational place.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
On the other hand, it's stupid to give a guy shit for something that is completely beyond his control and that he's managing in the most mature way he can given his feelings.
Well, the multi-page gangbang this has become is probably inappropriate, but there is an amount of social pressure which is acceptable. The goal is to have less and less of these "traditional families" producing children with fucked up ideas about sex.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
On the other hand, it's stupid to give a guy shit for something that is completely beyond his control and that he's managing in the most mature way he can given his feelings.
Well, the multi-page gangbang this has become is probably inappropriate, but there is an amount of social pressure which is acceptable. The goal is to have less and less of these "traditional families" producing children with fucked up ideas about sex.
I would agree with that, but instead of making that point, most people here were going for Double's throat. It just made me angry to see people use him as a scapegoat.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
On the other hand, it's stupid to give a guy shit for something that is completely beyond his control and that he's managing in the most mature way he can given his feelings.
Well, the multi-page gangbang this has become is probably inappropriate, but there is an amount of social pressure which is acceptable. The goal is to have less and less of these "traditional families" producing children with fucked up ideas about sex.
I would agree with that, but instead of making that point, most people here were going for Double's throat. It just made me angry to see people use him as a scapegoat.
My apologizes to Faces if I came off as scapegoating him, but I stand by my statement that he's a hypocrite for his actions. It's awesome that he realizes it's not the greatest way of thinking, but it'd be even awesomer if he didn't stop there and moved towards doing something about it.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
On the other hand, it's stupid to give a guy shit for something that is completely beyond his control and that he's managing in the most mature way he can given his feelings.
Well, the multi-page gangbang this has become is probably inappropriate, but there is an amount of social pressure which is acceptable. The goal is to have less and less of these "traditional families" producing children with fucked up ideas about sex.
I would agree with that, but instead of making that point, most people here were going for Double's throat. It just made me angry to see people use him as a scapegoat.
Technically, we used him as whipping boy. There's a slightly diffrent, but significant, diffrence.
He wasn't being blamed. He was being abused to demonstrate to others how they should act.
You know hearing this about the Muslim community is hardly surprising to me. I think I'm just sort of numb to insanity from the religious sector.
What was more surprisingly (and made me more angry) was apparently a survey by Maxim or the like in Australia found something like 47% of (male) respondants said they would prefer to marry a women who was a virgin on their wedding night.
What. The. Fuck.
Needless to say, that made me feel like going out there and punching 47% of men in the face. I mean after all the alleged social progress in this country, you get 47% of a survey saying that, that is fucked up.
Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
You know hearing this about the Muslim community is hardly surprising to me. I think I'm just sort of numb to insanity from the religious sector.
What was more surprisingly (and made me more angry) was apparently a survey by Maxim or the like in Australia found something like 47% of (male) respondants said they would prefer to marry a women who was a virgin on their wedding night.
What. The. Fuck.
Needless to say, that made me feel like going out there and punching 47% of men in the face. I mean after all the alleged social progress in this country, you get 47% of a survey saying that, that is fucked up.
What about the percentage of those men who were virgins themselves?
You know hearing this about the Muslim community is hardly surprising to me. I think I'm just sort of numb to insanity from the religious sector.
What was more surprisingly (and made me more angry) was apparently a survey by Maxim or the like in Australia found something like 47% of (male) respondants said they would prefer to marry a women who was a virgin on their wedding night.
What. The. Fuck.
Needless to say, that made me feel like going out there and punching 47% of men in the face. I mean after all the alleged social progress in this country, you get 47% of a survey saying that, that is fucked up.
What about the percentage of those men who were virgins themselves?
No idea. And I don't really think it matters from that perspective anyway - I like to imagine that somehow we have a country of people who think in a slightly wider ranging mindset. But apparently not.
You know hearing this about the Muslim community is hardly surprising to me. I think I'm just sort of numb to insanity from the religious sector.
What was more surprisingly (and made me more angry) was apparently a survey by Maxim or the like in Australia found something like 47% of (male) respondants said they would prefer to marry a women who was a virgin on their wedding night.
What. The. Fuck.
Needless to say, that made me feel like going out there and punching 47% of men in the face. I mean after all the alleged social progress in this country, you get 47% of a survey saying that, that is fucked up.
What about the percentage of those men who were virgins themselves?
No idea. And I don't really think it matters from that perspective anyway - I like to imagine that somehow we have a country of people who think in a slightly wider ranging mindset. But apparently not.
I think wanting to remain celibate until you're married as well as wanting to marry someone who was celibate until they married you is a valid mindset.
I think it's pretty unhealthy to feel uncomfortable - especially to such a degree as to produce physical discomfort - about the idea that the woman you are sleeping with has slept with other people. It indicates an unhealthy possessiveness, and an unhealthy view of sexual relationships. It is not an uncommon attitude, unfortunately, but I still think it's a bad one.
Personally, I feel that the more sexual experience a woman has, the better - she'll be able to bring skills and possibly novelties to a sexual relationship, most likely.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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Perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt, but when his post says he was uncomfortable with his previous girlfriend having been with other guys and then he talks about how is current girlfriend is awesome because (at least in part) she's a virgin....what the fuck kind of conclusion am I supposed to draw here?
well, not a knee jerk one, for starters
In my defense, I did ask him if I was understanding him correctly and he didn't clarify any of his points. And on that note I'll drop it. I think he's a hypocrite. Some people don't. Life goes on.
What was more surprisingly (and made me more angry) was apparently a survey by Maxim or the like in Australia found something like 47% of (male) respondants said they would prefer to marry a women who was a virgin on their wedding night.
"would prefer"? That's a pretty low bar to clear.
I'd prefer that my woman say/do/be a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's an expectation. Preference doesn't equal deal-breaker.
Honestly, I'm surprised that upwards of 50% of men said they had *no* preference as to virginity. Sounds like progress to me.
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I think wanting to remain celibate until you're married as well as wanting to marry someone who was celibate until they married you is a valid mindset.
That's a positive assertion. What makes it a valid mindset, when it is an untenable goal for most people in the culture and really has no demonstrable advantage in modern society?
Because if that's the way the person feels about sex, and as long as they're willing to make the same sacrifice (not having sex for so long) as they expect the other person to make, it isn't hurting anyone and it makes both of them happy. It certainly doesn't apply to everyone, and trying to force it on people is unrealistic, but there's no reason it can't work as long as both people are willing to make the effort.
What was more surprisingly (and made me more angry) was apparently a survey by Maxim or the like in Australia found something like 47% of (male) respondants said they would prefer to marry a women who was a virgin on their wedding night.
"would prefer"? That's a pretty low bar to clear.
I'd prefer that my woman say/do/be a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's an expectation. Preference doesn't equal deal-breaker.
Honestly, I'm surprised that upwards of 50% of men said they had *no* preference as to virginity. Sounds like progress to me.
I find "would prefer" to be worse. It seems more objectifying then any other way of saying it.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
You guys are making way too much of what Faces said, but this is being covered, so it's time for personal experience time, which comes too late considering the current tangent this thread is going off on.
I agree in that I think that the very fact that these reconstructive surgeries are necessary is disgusting, and that getting a fake hymen doesn't actually restore virginity and so is entirely fraudulent. I wish we lived in a world where these surgeries weren't in many ways necessary, but considering the excessive punishments for the total non-crime of having sex before marriage, this is one of those "What he doesn;t know won't hurt him" situations.
Although in all honesty I see this paralleling the abortion issue a little more closely. Especially since the aim of most progressives is not to have enough fetuses to open up a buffet, but to provide safe abortions in a convenient and confidential manner to women who need it while also working to educate about sex and therefore help them help themselves by becoming smarter about safer sex practices. These hymen surgeries, I wish, should be implemented the same way; provide them discreetly and safely while also working on society at large to dispel the ridiculous purity notion that makes them necessary.
Unfortunately, muslim fundamentalists are extremely resistant to change, and so I feel the de facto situation is that that's not going to happen quite so well as in other countries.
Now for the personal anecdote:
I'm an Iranian girl, 17, virgin, living in the US. My parents aren't hardcore muslims but they are really stupid about sex and attraction, even if I don't have to wear the scarf; they freak out over clothes, like normal parents, but with a ridiculous extra amount of paranoia making clothes that were okay last week not okay this week because of an imagined slip of the cleavage. Just today I wore a tank top--it's fucking hot out--and had to suffer a whole bitch fit from my mother about why I was trying to be sexy, even though you couldn't see anything at all.
Anyway, they way I was raised makes me a but of a neurotic idiot when it comes to relationships and sex in general. I can't even let them know I have feelings for guys, can't let them think that I may look at boys in ways other than a professional manner, which of course makes me one of those stupid girls who approaches a normal relationship with a hatchet and a sledgehammer. Also, the practicality of having such an archaic home life has dissuaded me from doing anything about approaching guys, which of course, leads to a perpetuation of the dumb virginal idea. How does anybody get experience if even accepted actions like kissing or holding hands is equated with fucking like rabbits behind the 7-11?
They talk alot about my kids but never about the steps it takes to find someone to have kids with. That's why I think education in society is sorely needed, because the general influence of the family lends heavily to the outdated notions of virginity and dealing with it. My mother hates my father and I think if she hadn't just married him without actually engaging in actions to rack up the experience--namely, getting to know him sexually, as gross as the thought in my mind is--she wouldn't have married him. Although I wouldn't be here if she hadn't.
Basically the necessity placed on virginity is a stupid because it is impractical and leads to socially stunted (and desperate) kids.
I don't think any guy likes the idea of his girl getting done by another guy (unless he's kinky like that).
What I was wondering was is it: "not being given the chance to be first" (or "her having decided to have sex for the first time before having met me") or is it: her genitals are my exclusive domain (eventhough mine haven't been her exclusive domain)?
The "first" perspective might have legs, the "exclusive" perspective sounds like "that woman's my property."
Sorry if I helped run anyone out of the thread.
:-(
I think wanting to remain celibate until you're married as well as wanting to marry someone who was celibate until they married you is a valid mindset.
That's a positive assertion. What makes it a valid mindset, when it is an untenable goal for most people in the culture and really has no demonstrable advantage in modern society?
Because if that's the way the person feels about sex, and as long as they're willing to make the same sacrifice (not having sex for so long) as they expect the other person to make, it isn't hurting anyone and it makes both of them happy. It certainly doesn't apply to anyone, and trying to force it on people is unrealistic, but there's no reason it can't work as long as both people are willing to make the effort.
when a society decides to hold it as an ideal, it leads to things like absence only education and alienation, to varying degrees, of those who can not meet it. When it is a commonly professed mindset, it does do harm, and depending on how strongly it is believed it can lead to pretty horrible things.
even in the morally defensible form, it can do harm. It's ok for people to feel that way, because people feel that way about sex. That doesn't make it a valid view point, so much as show we need to change the way people feel about sex.
edit:hey, look, anecdotal evidence, and apparently Hakkekage has boobs.
The whole virginity thing collides horribly with other changes that go along with improving women's lives. More education for women leads to later first marriages, meaning you're expecting people to put off having sex until they're 25, which is pretty unrealistic, as opposed to 16 or 18, which is much more doable.
Of course, the people who put that much importance on virginity are also the people who would greatly prefer women to be illiterate, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
I think wanting to remain celibate until you're married as well as wanting to marry someone who was celibate until they married you is a valid mindset.
That's a positive assertion. What makes it a valid mindset, when it is an untenable goal for most people in the culture and really has no demonstrable advantage in modern society?
Because if that's the way the person feels about sex, and as long as they're willing to make the same sacrifice (not having sex for so long) as they expect the other person to make, it isn't hurting anyone and it makes both of them happy. It certainly doesn't apply to anyone, and trying to force it on people is unrealistic, but there's no reason it can't work as long as both people are willing to make the effort.
when a society decides to hold it as an ideal, it leads to things like absence only education and alienation, to varying degrees, of those who can not meet it. When it is a commonly professed mindset, it does do harm, and depending on how strongly it is believed it can lead to pretty horrible things.
even in the morally defensible form, it can do harm. It's ok for people to feel that way, because people feel that way about sex. That doesn't make it a valid view point, so much as show we need to change the way people feel about sex.
edit:hey, look, anecdotal evidence, and apparently Hakkekage has boobs.
I agree with your point, but that's only because that view point is taken to the extreme. I think there's room for people who share that viewpoint in society, but it shouldn't be so prevalent, nor should it be forced on anybody, because it just doesn't work for most people. If people hold THEMSELVES to that ideal, then it really isn't a problem; it's when people try to force that on others is where issues arise.
The whole virginity thing collides horribly with other changes that go along with improving women's lives. More education for women leads to later first marriages, meaning you're expecting people to put off having sex until they're 25, which is pretty unrealistic, as opposed to 16 or 18, which is much more doable.
Of course, the people who put that much importance on virginity are also the people who would greatly prefer women to be illiterate, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
That's my problem with the mentality professed by people saying they are uncomfortable with their partner having other partners. It's that mindset that keeps gender relations shitty in this country and others.
We are animals and trying to hold a fundamental right a person has (that being whether to be involved in consensual sex with another) as a precondition for judging them is retarded. And that's what you are doing when you say "It makes me sick". I don't give a shit if you say " but I don't judge" bullshit you just did admit it to yourself.
If you think that a person having partners before you is any indication of them as a human being you are a backwards thinking person who needs to be educated.
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I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
You guys know those abstinence clubs that the government had spent millions of our dollars to get into our highschools. Yeah, it turns out that after the ladies take the abstinence pledge, they are having more oral and anal sex instead.
That's my problem with the mentality professed by people saying they are uncomfortable with their partner having other partners. It's that mindset that keeps gender relations shitty in this country and others.
We are animals and trying to hold a fundamental right a person has (that being whether to be involved in consensual sex with another) as a precondition for judging them is retarded. And that's what you are doing when you say "It makes me sick". I don't give a shit if you say " but I don't judge" bullshit you just did admit it to yourself.
If you think that a person having partners before you is any indication of them as a human being you are a backwards thinking person who needs to be educated.
Agreed. It also smacks pretty strongly of "women's bodies belong to men." It's generally not about "Well, I'd prefer to date someone with the same values as I have, which means we'd both have decided to be abstinent until marriage," which is just fine (although I personally think it'd be better to be flexible, because people's beliefs do change and it'd be silly to freak out over an otherwise compatible partner because she had sex with her teenage boyfriend before she decided that abstinence would be better). It's not about what the woman has decided to do with her own body, it's about how many other men have used her body before the guy in question has, and that's horribly creepy and objectifying.
That's my problem with the mentality professed by people saying they are uncomfortable with their partner having other partners. It's that mindset that keeps gender relations shitty in this country and others.
We are animals and trying to hold a fundamental right a person has (that being whether to be involved in consensual sex with another) as a precondition for judging them is retarded. And that's what you are doing when you say "It makes me sick". I don't give a shit if you say " but I don't judge" bullshit you just did admit it to yourself.
If you think that a person having partners before you is any indication of them as a human being you are a backwards thinking person who needs to be educated.
Agreed. It also smacks pretty strongly of "women's bodies belong to men." It's generally not about "Well, I'd prefer to date someone with the same values as I have, which means we'd both have decided to be abstinent until marriage," which is just fine (although I personally think it'd be better to be flexible, because people's beliefs do change and it'd be silly to freak out over an otherwise compatible partner because she had sex with her teenage boyfriend before she decided that abstinence would be better). It's not about what the woman has decided to do with her own body, it's about how many other men have used her body before the guy in question has, and that's horribly creepy and objectifying.
Agreed, it shows how widespread and I'm going to use a term I have never been fond of the Patriarchy has damaged womens rights in this country alone. And it is based on how you're raised but if I was raised a racist I should drop that shit as soon as I'm educated, same with this women are my prize bullshit.
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I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I agree with your point, but that's only because that view point is taken to the extreme. I think there's room for people who share that viewpoint in society, but it shouldn't be so prevalent, nor should it be forced on anybody, because it just doesn't work for most people. If people hold THEMSELVES to that ideal, then it really isn't a problem; it's when people try to force that on others is where issues arise.
not sure which extreme you are referring to, it's an ideology that lends itself to them. Hakkekage actually had two examples in there, and even the rushing into marriage portion is bad for people who hold it to themselfs.
But people don't do that. They do try to force their beliefs on others. You can explain it however you want, memes, social competition, religious mandate, whatever. it's a pretty significant decision, and those who follow it through, or at least try very hard to, are likely to have it effect how they raise their children, Hakkekage herself in this case.
It can be bad for everyone involved. No one gets anything out of it. Sure there is room for it, I just don't want it around, because it benefits no one and harms quite a few.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
[
If you think that a person having partners before you is any indication of them as a human being you are a backwards thinking person who needs to be educated.
Operative term that I think is the most difficult to get out there.
I would say the greatest fear of women in the US who have lost their virginity before marriage is being ostracized from the family, which has varying degrees of impact on her life depending on the family's socioeconomic class. Still, they live in the US. I know we all bemoan the existence of the fucked up evangelical idiots trying to run the country's agenda, but it's kind of impossible to run away from all the information available both on the internet and on the airwaves. Eventually, education will be had, even if abstinence only is still being touted in high schools. Unless you're Amish, women and their families will become accustomed to the idea that these things happen and/or that they should have an appropriate response that isn't nutters. Therefore the woman's escapades are at least mitigated by a free flow of information.
In, say, Saudi Arabia, the risk is so much worse and the education so much harder to implement. First there is a government enforcing dress and behavior that actively works against this education, and a government providing its own social code based on an entrenched religion. Providing education, and then making it sink in, would take much longer and likely fall flat as the current social norms work against women who have had sex before marriage and thus discourage the flow of information and subsequently a change in social norms.
That was a stupidly long sentence and I don't think I addressed my original point, but, anyway.
You guys know those abstinence clubs that the government had spent millions of our dollars to get into our highschools. Yeah, it turns out that after the ladies take the abstinence pledge, they are having more oral and anal sex instead.
Money well spent? :winky:
On a more serious note, if some people want to hold off sex until marriage that's perfectly fine. It's not my choice and I think Mr "I'm in the triple digits, but I better marry a virgin" is a hypocrite, but consenting adults and teens are free to choose to have sex or not.
Vegetarians and vegans implicitly judge meat eaters just as hardcore Republican and Democrat voters judge each other. If someone is willing to live by the same standards as they expect in a partner, what's the big deal (in a first world scenario, not stoning the whore frame of reference)?
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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My biggest issue is that for Men in america we have the choice. You can sleep with someone or not and there is no negative connotation. But if a woman god forbid decides to sleep with men, well she better hope she lives in an enlightened area or only sleeps with a couple.
What do you call a man who sleeps with a lot of women? A stud. What do you call a woman who sleeps with a lot of men? A slut. Doesn't seem too open and non judgemental does it?
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I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
What do you call a man who sleeps with a lot of women? A stud. What do you call a woman who sleeps with a lot of men? A slut. Doesn't seem too open and non judgemental does it?
On the other hand, if you took a poll of women in America and asked them if they would prefer to marry a guy with more than fifty partners, I'm guessing the results would be lower than Bush's approval numbers. Getting called a stud might work well with "the boys", but generally isn't looked upon so kindly by women as it tends to have a connotation of someone who uses people.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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I think this is the important point to get. He seems to just feel more uncomfortable than most people would about it, and that's ok as long as he deals with it maturely, and from what he's said, it seems that he does.
So they make a bunch of these:
And logic does this:
Yeah, I get the feeling that Faces is dealing with it pretty well. I'd be the first person to admit that I'm sorta the jealous type (I blame my Italian genes), but no fucking way am I gonna let that get in the way of a relationship. That's just wrong, not to mention it's a twisted way to think: here I am getting all worked up about a girl's past relationships, while I've done the exact same?
No thanks, I like to think that I'm a little more mature than that.
Additionally, just because he says he doesn't think less of her for it, which I believe, doesn't mean she isn't implicitly worth less to him.
This is not necessarily something he can help, but it is a Bad Thing.
Woah woah woah, Double_Faces and darklite_x are two completely different people. Either I'm misinterpreting what's going on, or you are. Double is the guy who doesn't like it if his girlfriend previously fucked other dudes, and darklite is the revolving vagina man.
That his current girlfriend just happens to be a virgin and he likes that? He probably didn't go up to her and say "Are you a virgin?" and then start liking her after that.
So you're attributing negative characteristics to him that he hasn't explicitly implied, even though he has been honest about his feelings on the matter?
On the other hand, it's stupid to give a guy shit for something that is completely beyond his control and that he's managing in the most mature way he can given his feelings.
Yeah.
Because they're his "feelings" doesn't mean that it's impossible to discern the underlying causes for such feelings, though. They're symptomatic and have to come from somewhere, albeit not from a rational place.
Well, the multi-page gangbang this has become is probably inappropriate, but there is an amount of social pressure which is acceptable. The goal is to have less and less of these "traditional families" producing children with fucked up ideas about sex.
I would agree with that, but instead of making that point, most people here were going for Double's throat. It just made me angry to see people use him as a scapegoat.
My apologizes to Faces if I came off as scapegoating him, but I stand by my statement that he's a hypocrite for his actions. It's awesome that he realizes it's not the greatest way of thinking, but it'd be even awesomer if he didn't stop there and moved towards doing something about it.
Technically, we used him as whipping boy. There's a slightly diffrent, but significant, diffrence.
He wasn't being blamed. He was being abused to demonstrate to others how they should act.
What was more surprisingly (and made me more angry) was apparently a survey by Maxim or the like in Australia found something like 47% of (male) respondants said they would prefer to marry a women who was a virgin on their wedding night.
What. The. Fuck.
Needless to say, that made me feel like going out there and punching 47% of men in the face. I mean after all the alleged social progress in this country, you get 47% of a survey saying that, that is fucked up.
well, not a knee jerk one, for starters
What about the percentage of those men who were virgins themselves?
I think wanting to remain celibate until you're married as well as wanting to marry someone who was celibate until they married you is a valid mindset.
Personally, I feel that the more sexual experience a woman has, the better - she'll be able to bring skills and possibly novelties to a sexual relationship, most likely.
Anything against traditional families producing children without fucked up ideas about sex?
Edit: While I'm asking, what exactly is the quote traditional family unquote to which you're referring?
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In my defense, I did ask him if I was understanding him correctly and he didn't clarify any of his points. And on that note I'll drop it. I think he's a hypocrite. Some people don't. Life goes on.
"would prefer"? That's a pretty low bar to clear.
I'd prefer that my woman say/do/be a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's an expectation. Preference doesn't equal deal-breaker.
Honestly, I'm surprised that upwards of 50% of men said they had *no* preference as to virginity. Sounds like progress to me.
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Because if that's the way the person feels about sex, and as long as they're willing to make the same sacrifice (not having sex for so long) as they expect the other person to make, it isn't hurting anyone and it makes both of them happy. It certainly doesn't apply to everyone, and trying to force it on people is unrealistic, but there's no reason it can't work as long as both people are willing to make the effort.
I agree in that I think that the very fact that these reconstructive surgeries are necessary is disgusting, and that getting a fake hymen doesn't actually restore virginity and so is entirely fraudulent. I wish we lived in a world where these surgeries weren't in many ways necessary, but considering the excessive punishments for the total non-crime of having sex before marriage, this is one of those "What he doesn;t know won't hurt him" situations.
Although in all honesty I see this paralleling the abortion issue a little more closely. Especially since the aim of most progressives is not to have enough fetuses to open up a buffet, but to provide safe abortions in a convenient and confidential manner to women who need it while also working to educate about sex and therefore help them help themselves by becoming smarter about safer sex practices. These hymen surgeries, I wish, should be implemented the same way; provide them discreetly and safely while also working on society at large to dispel the ridiculous purity notion that makes them necessary.
Unfortunately, muslim fundamentalists are extremely resistant to change, and so I feel the de facto situation is that that's not going to happen quite so well as in other countries.
Now for the personal anecdote:
Anyway, they way I was raised makes me a but of a neurotic idiot when it comes to relationships and sex in general. I can't even let them know I have feelings for guys, can't let them think that I may look at boys in ways other than a professional manner, which of course makes me one of those stupid girls who approaches a normal relationship with a hatchet and a sledgehammer. Also, the practicality of having such an archaic home life has dissuaded me from doing anything about approaching guys, which of course, leads to a perpetuation of the dumb virginal idea. How does anybody get experience if even accepted actions like kissing or holding hands is equated with fucking like rabbits behind the 7-11?
They talk alot about my kids but never about the steps it takes to find someone to have kids with. That's why I think education in society is sorely needed, because the general influence of the family lends heavily to the outdated notions of virginity and dealing with it. My mother hates my father and I think if she hadn't just married him without actually engaging in actions to rack up the experience--namely, getting to know him sexually, as gross as the thought in my mind is--she wouldn't have married him. Although I wouldn't be here if she hadn't.
Basically the necessity placed on virginity is a stupid because it is impractical and leads to socially stunted (and desperate) kids.
NNID: Hakkekage
What I was wondering was is it: "not being given the chance to be first" (or "her having decided to have sex for the first time before having met me") or is it: her genitals are my exclusive domain (eventhough mine haven't been her exclusive domain)?
The "first" perspective might have legs, the "exclusive" perspective sounds like "that woman's my property."
Sorry if I helped run anyone out of the thread.
:-(
when a society decides to hold it as an ideal, it leads to things like absence only education and alienation, to varying degrees, of those who can not meet it. When it is a commonly professed mindset, it does do harm, and depending on how strongly it is believed it can lead to pretty horrible things.
even in the morally defensible form, it can do harm. It's ok for people to feel that way, because people feel that way about sex. That doesn't make it a valid view point, so much as show we need to change the way people feel about sex.
edit:hey, look, anecdotal evidence, and apparently Hakkekage has boobs.
Of course, the people who put that much importance on virginity are also the people who would greatly prefer women to be illiterate, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
I agree with your point, but that's only because that view point is taken to the extreme. I think there's room for people who share that viewpoint in society, but it shouldn't be so prevalent, nor should it be forced on anybody, because it just doesn't work for most people. If people hold THEMSELVES to that ideal, then it really isn't a problem; it's when people try to force that on others is where issues arise.
That's my problem with the mentality professed by people saying they are uncomfortable with their partner having other partners. It's that mindset that keeps gender relations shitty in this country and others.
We are animals and trying to hold a fundamental right a person has (that being whether to be involved in consensual sex with another) as a precondition for judging them is retarded. And that's what you are doing when you say "It makes me sick". I don't give a shit if you say " but I don't judge" bullshit you just did admit it to yourself.
If you think that a person having partners before you is any indication of them as a human being you are a backwards thinking person who needs to be educated.
pleasepaypreacher.net
http://youtube.com/watch?v=e24fYOXzk1I
haha don't be ridiculous, there's no such thing as girls on the internet
Agreed. It also smacks pretty strongly of "women's bodies belong to men." It's generally not about "Well, I'd prefer to date someone with the same values as I have, which means we'd both have decided to be abstinent until marriage," which is just fine (although I personally think it'd be better to be flexible, because people's beliefs do change and it'd be silly to freak out over an otherwise compatible partner because she had sex with her teenage boyfriend before she decided that abstinence would be better). It's not about what the woman has decided to do with her own body, it's about how many other men have used her body before the guy in question has, and that's horribly creepy and objectifying.
Agreed, it shows how widespread and I'm going to use a term I have never been fond of the Patriarchy has damaged womens rights in this country alone. And it is based on how you're raised but if I was raised a racist I should drop that shit as soon as I'm educated, same with this women are my prize bullshit.
pleasepaypreacher.net
not sure which extreme you are referring to, it's an ideology that lends itself to them. Hakkekage actually had two examples in there, and even the rushing into marriage portion is bad for people who hold it to themselfs.
But people don't do that. They do try to force their beliefs on others. You can explain it however you want, memes, social competition, religious mandate, whatever. it's a pretty significant decision, and those who follow it through, or at least try very hard to, are likely to have it effect how they raise their children, Hakkekage herself in this case.
It can be bad for everyone involved. No one gets anything out of it. Sure there is room for it, I just don't want it around, because it benefits no one and harms quite a few.
Operative term that I think is the most difficult to get out there.
I would say the greatest fear of women in the US who have lost their virginity before marriage is being ostracized from the family, which has varying degrees of impact on her life depending on the family's socioeconomic class. Still, they live in the US. I know we all bemoan the existence of the fucked up evangelical idiots trying to run the country's agenda, but it's kind of impossible to run away from all the information available both on the internet and on the airwaves. Eventually, education will be had, even if abstinence only is still being touted in high schools. Unless you're Amish, women and their families will become accustomed to the idea that these things happen and/or that they should have an appropriate response that isn't nutters. Therefore the woman's escapades are at least mitigated by a free flow of information.
In, say, Saudi Arabia, the risk is so much worse and the education so much harder to implement. First there is a government enforcing dress and behavior that actively works against this education, and a government providing its own social code based on an entrenched religion. Providing education, and then making it sink in, would take much longer and likely fall flat as the current social norms work against women who have had sex before marriage and thus discourage the flow of information and subsequently a change in social norms.
That was a stupidly long sentence and I don't think I addressed my original point, but, anyway.
NNID: Hakkekage
Money well spent? :winky:
On a more serious note, if some people want to hold off sex until marriage that's perfectly fine. It's not my choice and I think Mr "I'm in the triple digits, but I better marry a virgin" is a hypocrite, but consenting adults and teens are free to choose to have sex or not.
Vegetarians and vegans implicitly judge meat eaters just as hardcore Republican and Democrat voters judge each other. If someone is willing to live by the same standards as they expect in a partner, what's the big deal (in a first world scenario, not stoning the whore frame of reference)?
Edit:
Can't believe nobody has given that a :winky:
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What do you call a man who sleeps with a lot of women? A stud. What do you call a woman who sleeps with a lot of men? A slut. Doesn't seem too open and non judgemental does it?
pleasepaypreacher.net
On the other hand, if you took a poll of women in America and asked them if they would prefer to marry a guy with more than fifty partners, I'm guessing the results would be lower than Bush's approval numbers. Getting called a stud might work well with "the boys", but generally isn't looked upon so kindly by women as it tends to have a connotation of someone who uses people.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.