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Naked British Women

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Posts

  • Evil GummyEvil Gummy Registered User
    edited August 2008
    Most escorts I know of don't kiss their clients, it's more intimate than straight on intercourse or BJ's. Same reason they won't let someone go down on them, either.


    Anyway, regarding calling stripping and phone sex 'sex work', I guess we do need to set a line for the thread. I, personally, find stripping to be very sexual, but then I work in a contact state so my job isn't 99% air dances, either. That obviously clouds my view.


    As for the seeing no obvious drug use, yes, my place of work is VERY strict on things, so while I'm not ignorant and know that their are girls who DO drugs, I don't know if I could say if it's more common than when I worked at, say, Dave and Busters, where more then half the cooks were on something, often on the clock.

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  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2008
    Oh, I'd definitely call that 'sex work,' I just wanted people to avoid using 'sex work' as a catch-all term because as a catch-all term it encompasses so many different things. I don't mean to downplay your work. :)

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  • Fatty McBeardoFatty McBeardo Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The person described in the OP may exist, but in the specific case of "Belle" I'm pretty skeptical, because the stories sure sound to me like they're a guy's ideal and not a woman's.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The no kissing thing is fairly common, it seems. Hell, I read about it once in a 1986 Encyclopedia Britannica.

    And then of course you have the ranges of these things... porn stars and behind-glass sex shows and such.

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  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited August 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    Can you point me to this study which states that every person we kiss becomes psychologically important to us? I grant you that it's "really hard to separate from other factors," but it's also just sort of out of left field and unless you've got some kind of source, I'm really not feeling it.

    Well, I'm exhausted and lazy, so you just get some Wikipedia links from their article on kissing

    Kissing as the adult version of mother-infant nuzzling
    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=affairs-of-the-lips-why-we-kiss&page=4

    Kissing as an exchange of pheremones to scent out a permanent mate
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15777804?dopt=Abstract

    Physiological reaction to kissing releases happy happy juices (kinda weak, since most things hold for anything pleasant/stimulating)
    http://people.howstuffworks.com/kissing2.htm

    And there's a wealth of literature theorizing that kissing is the human version of the social preening or grooming that other animals do. *shrug*

  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2008
    Thank you for the links, it'll take some time for me to read through them and give them fair process. I just wanted to let you know immediately that I'm very appreciative you actually did bring me the research, since that's a request that oft goes unheeded in D&D. :)

    To fill up the empty space on my end, I'd theorize I'm getting so defensive over this because I feel absolutely no connection -- social or otherwise -- to the men that I've knocked with for 'nefarious purposes,' and I actually feel somewhat diminished because of it. After all, if there's a conclusive link and I've not subscribed to it, doesn't that make me the wrong quantity? So, pretty classic inspiration to defensive posturing.

    Most of the men (and this isn't a large sample, by any means, though it's not something you count on one hand either) didn't want to kiss or do anything involving kissing, but I always interpreted that as they just wanted to 'get down to business.' I've always hated kissing -- even in my personal relationships -- so in the odd event my partner wanted to (and this was entirely the very young men, 18-26), I was no more put off by it than I would have been anyway and it didn't endear him to me any more than any of the other partners.

    Anecdotal, yes, but I wanted to offer something back to you because you offered something to me. Thanks, I'm going to read through the articles now. :D

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  • APZonerunnerAPZonerunner Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I've read a little of the book, and from what is said there it certainly seems to be a job that she finds.. fulfilling.

    I think the answer is yeah, people can enjoy it. I'm sure plenty of people in porn love their jobs, and prostitution really isn't any different so long as it's safe, protected & consent is given. That goes for anyone in the sex-based jobs - prostitution, porn, dominatrixes.. all that stuff. Some of them are bound to love it.

    APZonerunner | RPG Site | UFFSite | The Gaming Vault
    XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
  • Evil GummyEvil Gummy Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I think, if you don't want a kiss to 'stir up' any sort of connection on your end, it really won't. That doesn't mean kissing isn't something that can draw people closer through physical contact though, because chances are the person who WANTS to kiss is doing it at least partially to experience said connection.

    So even if you aren't enjoying it, they still might be. And that's part of the issue, not wanting to share that or let someone live that experience via you.

    Anyway, in regards to the whole 'sex and women' social commentary I made earlier, I'm sure I'll bumble my explanation up, but here it goes.

    People tend to doubt that someone can work a sex job and NOT be messed up in some way. They associate sexual promiscuousness with being unhealthy, like I just HAVE to have been abused, raped, etc. or addicted to drugs and darn it without high paying no education required sex work, what would I do?

    I remember a thread in H&A where someone was asking for advice on dating a girl they knew who was a stripper, and they were reserved about it, people responded with comments alluding to how she would be trouble because 'strippers do drugs' etc. I recall someone saying the real issue was they worked together at the college as DJ's, and that would be more weird than anything, but the reactions were largely assumptions of character based on her job.

    I hope I'm still on topic. :p

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  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2008
    I see where you're coming from, and although I agree that it's a cultural meme that "women who enter the sex industry are screwed up in some way," I think that right now the meme arose out of facts. In this cultural environment, it takes either a very strong, intelligent, and self-motivated woman or one with a bit of a strange streak to enter willingly into the sex industry -- their pleasures notwithstanding.

    I think that the former kind of women exist, and I think that it's natural that they also write about or become speakers about or participate in research about their careers. It comes with the territory of being who they are that allowed them to enter into the field in the first place.

    Statistically, though? People are going to fall into the latter, even if it's not the primary or even a large part of their motivations.

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  • DukiDuki Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I remember watching this show and being really disappointed when there were like no tits anywhere.

  • Evil GummyEvil Gummy Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I agree with you as well, Oboro. I think mostly, my issue is the automatic assumption currently that these people are broken, considering the info we have today about the sex industry.

    I mean, until I was on the inside, I had a lot of ideas, incorrect ones, about what people would be like, their backgrounds, etc. I've run into more people with bachelor degrees, more lawyers, more psychologists, all working under the same roof than I've ever run into before.

    Misconception fuels the thoughts people have, that sex jobs are in some way degrading etc. hence the caliber people expect to find there.

    Honestly, I was FAR more degraded when I worked at Best Buy then I have EVER been taking my clothes off for money.

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  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2008
    Well, that makes one of us. The beat in New Jersey and New York might just be that much more raw, though. <img class=" title=":wink:" class="bbcode_smiley" />

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  • Evil GummyEvil Gummy Registered User
    edited August 2008
    Hmn, I'm assuming you're hinting that other places might be more, ah, over the top than others as far as work content?

    If you are, you could be right, but I work in what's considered THE place to go for high contact. I mean, prostitution is LEGAL behind closed doors here, my club personally will fire you though if they see anything inappropriate.


    I'm just saying, when I worked retail, I had no choice in if I wanted to deal with crappy customers, I had several people above me in position with ego and authoritarian issues, and I didn't get to choose when I went into work, among other issues. And I put up with it all for a mere 10 bucks an hour.

    Here, I don't have to dance for anyone I don't want to, if someone bugs me the bouncers will happily remove them, I choose what days and hours I want to work, and I am free to take as much time off as I want at so much as a drop of a hat. Hell, if I'm tired, I'm free to sit down in the dressing room and just read a book, which I find myself doing if I'm lazy that night.

    It's only degrading if you personally think it should be, or because others have taught you it should be. Both kind of go hand in hand.

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  • OboroOboro __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2008
    Well, I was more just alluding to the message we were both working towards of, "there are no simple answers." I'm not going to go into the details, but again remember we're anecdotally speaking from very different kinds of 'sex work.' There were no bouncers where I had my unfortunate encounters, and a client who was both clever and uncouth could degrade me if he was dead-set on it -- no matter how prepared or buffered against it I was. Once the obligation had been established, and the power balance shifted to him, there was nothing I could do if he wanted to abuse it -- the power I gave him allowed him to degrade me, briefly, in those private times. That's still degradation, and it's still something I carry with me.

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  • Evil GummyEvil Gummy Registered User
    edited August 2008
    My bad! I see now.


    You're certainly talking from another side of the same coin. True, without protection I don't know if I would feel as comfortable at my job. You and another person alone in a room has far different possible outcome.

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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2008
    Real enough, but so vanishingly rare that they may as well not exist. What's problematic is not that people like this exist, but that people who think sex work is harmless (even when this idea is qualified by "in an ideal world...") tend to hold up people like her as the norm, or at least the promise. This is really stupid, because the norm for sex workers is "abused as a child, very likely hooked on drugs, likely illiterate, likely underage, and probably trafficked across national borders at least once".

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  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray the swamp, always the swampRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I remember that H/A thread about dating a stripper and I forgot if I gave advice myself or not. Anyway, we did not know much about this girl so I can't really fault people from warning the guy that she might be having issues. It's not okay to automatically assume that someone who does work with the purpose of making people horny or making horny people get their satisfaction is fucked up, of course.

    Elendil wrote: »
    said Aldo hazily, before clop-clop-clopping out of the room
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2008
    No, of course not, but I think people here tend to underestimate how huge the global sex trade is and how little of it goes on in the west, in areas where even poor people have some education, knowledge of their rights, that knowledge backed up by the prevailing culture (impooooortant!!), and recourse to (even crappily enforced) law. People like Gummy are in a small minority, and very very lucky even so.

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  • AdrienAdrien Registered User
    edited August 2008
    The Cat wrote: »
    Real enough, but so vanishingly rare that they may as well not exist. What's problematic is not that people like this exist, but that people who think sex work is harmless (even when this idea is qualified by "in an ideal world...") tend to hold up people like her as the norm, or at least the promise. This is really stupid, because the norm for sex workers is "abused as a child, very likely hooked on drugs, likely illiterate, likely underage, and probably trafficked across national borders at least once".

    Do you mean the ideal? We have this situation in America where prostitution is mostly illegal, thoroughly demonized, and a massively profitable industry. And it gets even worse when you look at pornography (nudge nudge). There's a natural question here: Can someone have sex for money without either being or becoming a messed up individual? It seems like they can. But either way that only raises further ideological problems.

    I don't think most people are unaware of the more global problem of people who have sex for they're forced to, simply that it's part of the same question: Do these situations have any more to do with each other than those of a child making sneakers in Indonesia, and a waiter in America who wears sneakers?

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  • The ScribeThe Scribe Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I am convinced that for most women prostitution is a degrading way of life. Throughtout the world millions of girls - most of them under 18 years old - are forced into the trade.

    Nevertheless, from several sexual web sites I have learned that there are women who enjoy casual, even anynomous sex. Some will have sex with a group of men in a single evening and not even charge them. It is called "gangbanging." It's strange, but true.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Guys guys! Did you know women are quite capable of enjoying sex in much the way men can? Strange but true.

  • The ScribeThe Scribe Registered User
    edited August 2008
    Guys guys! Did you know women are quite capable of enjoying sex in much the way men can? Strange but true.

    Most men enjoy casual sex and sexual variety. Most women do not. Neverthless, as I have pointed out, there are women who enjoy casual sex and sexual variety. There are men who do not. There are even men who enjoy watching other men have sex with their wives.

    I do not approve of a man who enjoys having extramarital affairs while wanting his wife to be faithful to him, but I understand him. I do not understand a man who enjoys watching his wife having sex with other men. But as they say, "Whatever floats your boat."

  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray the swamp, always the swampRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The Scribe wrote: »
    Guys guys! Did you know women are quite capable of enjoying sex in much the way men can? Strange but true.

    Most men enjoy casual sex and sexual variety. Most women do not. Neverthless, as I have pointed out, there are women who enjoy casual sex and sexual variety. There are men who do not. There are even men who enjoy watching other men have sex with their wives.

    I do not approve of a man who enjoys having extramarital affairs while wanting his wife to be faithful to him, but I understand him. I do not understand a man who enjoys watching his wife having sex with other men. But as they say, "Whatever floats your boat."

    For your information, he was calling you old-fashioned.

    Elendil wrote: »
    said Aldo hazily, before clop-clop-clopping out of the room
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    So what exactly is the point of your posts at all? You are stating the obvious poorly.

    Your various assertions are also based on attitudes pretty heavily corrupted by decades to centuries of cultural bias and expectations. We have no idea what "most men" enjoy. We have no idea what "most women" enjoy for that matter either. Both problems informed by the variance within the populations.

    EDIT: I would even go so far as to say that what anyone thinks "most of one gender..." enjoy is probably informed by a sample of about 50 people they know which varies dramatically based on who and what environment they grow up/live in. Certainly no statistical data that's for sure.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The Scribe wrote: »
    Guys guys! Did you know women are quite capable of enjoying sex in much the way men can? Strange but true.

    Most men enjoy casual sex and sexual variety. Most women do not.

    Cite?

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  • Evil GummyEvil Gummy Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I would hope no one would say someone who was forced into sex trade, via trafficking etc, would be the people we were talking about at enjoying their jobs. I mean, they are by definition forced into the situation.

    I don't expect children who get forced to work in sweat shops to love doing that, either.

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  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I don't expect that forced labor is as damaging psychologically as forced sex, however.

    Edit: These issues are really very different depending on what part of the world you live in. If you've in highly developed parts of the world, sex work is likely to be much safer than elsewhere. If some guy is forcing you to service militia members in the DRC under threat of death and you only get 15%... well it's an entirely different story. My point is that sex services should be safe, but there are situations in which it is not. However, demonizing the people who do it gets us (and them) nowhere.

  • Evil GummyEvil Gummy Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I was comparing them in the sense that, if sweatshops suck so much, of COURSE forced sex work is ridiculous and damaging. Not the other way around, hehe.


    My argument, about women enjoying their work, had no inclusion of if sex slaves 'liked it'. I personally am sickened by the fact sexual slavery still exists, I watched a documentary once on it, scared me silly.


    Escorts who choose to freelance, or pick the company they want to work with, are the basis for my firm standing that there are more who like their jobs then people would guess. And even more who tolerate it as a living in the same vein as the average person does their own non-dream job.

    It's customer service and sales, some people thrive in those positions.

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  • AdrienAdrien Registered User
    edited August 2008
    So, in summary... human trafficking is bad, but middle-class prostitution is probably okay, despite the social weirdness it might be hard to get around?

    We kick ass, guys.

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  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Adrien wrote: »
    So, in summary... human trafficking is bad, but middle-class prostitution is probably okay, despite the social weirdness it might be hard to get around?

    We kick ass, guys.

    Yeah. Human trafficking is bad because it's forced, first and foremost.

    I like to compete in full contact fights. That's fine for me as an adult consenting party that enjoys it.
    It would be a horrible thing to force people that weren't old enough, trained enough, or psychologically willing to do it.

    Elements like age and consent certainly change the ethics and ramifications of participation in a vice activity.

    "Maybe we're here to eat the sandwich." -- Joe Rogan
  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Adrien wrote: »
    So, in summary... human trafficking is bad, but middle-class prostitution is probably okay, despite the social weirdness it might be hard to get around?
    This is better when I imagine a Mr. Mackey "mmmkay" after each statement.
    Yeah. Human trafficking is bad because it's forced, first and foremost.
    Back in my day, we called it slavery, young whippersnapper.

    "Adios, mofo" -- TX Gov Rick Perry (R)
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Evil Gummy wrote: »
    People tend to doubt that someone can work a sex job and NOT be messed up in some way. They associate sexual promiscuousness with being unhealthy, like I just HAVE to have been abused, raped, etc. or addicted to drugs and darn it without high paying no education required sex work, what would I do?

    I've known a lot of sex workers and former sex workers, just from the social circles in which I run. (That includes prostitutes, pro dommes, phone sex actresses, and strippers.) For the vast majority of them, sex work was either the result of, or resulted in, some social-psychological problem. The very few who didn't end up either abused, addicted to coke or meth, alcoholic, or otherwise emotionally damaged were the ones either providing a very specific fetish-oriented service (like the pro dommes I mentioned or one girl I knew who gave nothing but footjobs) or were in the business for a very short period of time.

    I'm one of the few people on this board who has argued against legalization of prostitution, specifically because I do doubt that somebody can work a sex job and not be - or end up - messed up in some way. And it has nothing to do with an association of promiscuity with unhealthiness - I've seen it mess up phone sex workers. Sex work is not directly analogous to promiscuity. (The question of legalization, specifically, hinges on whether or not regulation and licensure can significantly reduce the unhealthy elements - as far as I'm concerned, that depends on the details of the law in question. I'm not against legalization in principle, I'd just need to make sure I understood the specifics of any legalization proposal before I could argue for or against it.) I find the salmoned statement slightly insulting - I have no problem with promiscuity. I consider it a virtue. But when you start accepting money, the game changes significantly.

    There's a social stigma against sex workers. If somebody accepts money for sexual services, our culture tells them that they're a whore. All the connotations for the word "prostitute" (and associated synonyms) are predominantly negative. And I've watched women (and a few men) get into sex work, thinking, basically, "I like sex. I like money. Why not have both?" and over time the feeling of being a whore wears away at their self-esteem. At first they're picking and choosing their clients carefully, never doing drugs while on the job, only doing one trick a weekend, etc. Then their standards start to slowly degrade, they push the envelope of what they themselves find acceptable, and eventually they find themselves doing multiple clients in a row in a hotel room and drinking or smoking meth to turn off their emotions and get through it. (A slight exaggeration, but only slight.) Then one day they get raped or beaten and they end up in a crisis program wondering how they got from point A to point B. (And I have seen similar things happen with male prostitutes.)

    In general sex work puts you in contact with people who have drug problems, who are themselves a little crazy, or who have no problem treating women like whores. It puts you in contact with people who abuse and exploit women. Now, some people can swim around in a cesspool every day and come out smelling like roses. Maybe Belle du Jour is one of them, I dunno. If she is, she seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • UmaroUmaro Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    It's perfectly possible that she is legitimate.

    What's bad is if she gives people the idea that people like her are more than one-in-a-billion oddities.

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