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Loot, and the crawling thereof...

Venkman90Venkman90 Registered User regular
edited September 2008 in Games and Technology
One of the most addictive and enduring gaming features is the accumilation, hording and general love for loot:

Diablo2.jpg

mattsrogue.jpg

Blizzard make a damn fine loot based game, MMO's are largley built around the idea (and 10m folk seem to like WoW and it isn't for the PvP) and as a recovering MMO addict I thought I would throw out the idea that the world needs more loot based games, games like:

Diablo2 and the upcoming 3
World of Warcraft
Most other MMO's
Too Human
Sacred and the sequel due out soon

As a 360 owner my only options are the above mentioned Too Human, Sacred 2 when it arrives and maybe Fable2 (although I don't assume it will be really a loot crawl). I am hoping for this to expand soon as I would love to reclaim that feeling of a blue drop, or leaving a dungeon with my bags weighed down with vendor trash and upgrades, it's a stangley satisfying mechanic.

Any reccomendations for this kind of game I am missing?

Any thoughts on why so many RPG's miss the boat on loot and instead focus on story or action (both important in their own right)?

Or is it just me (and the mmo addicts)? ;-)

Venkman90 on
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Posts

  • RichardTauberRichardTauber Kvlt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Mmm... Windforce ...

    RichardTauber on
  • -SPI--SPI- Osaka, JapanRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Hellgate: Londo- oh wait, shit. :(

    It actually was a pretty damn nice loot game, just a shame it took several months after launch for the game to actually become good and by that point it was already too late.

    -SPI- on
  • Venkman90Venkman90 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Mmm... Windforce ...

    Not sure what that means...that a game?

    Venkman90 on
  • DeswaDeswa Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Its a unique bow in Diablo 2. The best bow I believe.

    Deswa on
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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    this thread basically embodies everything i dislike about gaming.

    given that blizzard could hire an army to kill me and everyone i love, though, it seems that mine is not a common attitude.

    carry on.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    A few years back, my friend was catching up on Final Fantasy 7 for the Playstation. He put 70 hours or so into it and was proud of his Knights of the Round materia and giant swords and super spells. All of his characters he used were lvl 99. I own the PC version and I used a fan made editor to give me the same loot and stats he had in less than five minutes.

    emnmnme on
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Because loot is ultimately pointless and shallow?

    Rook on
  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    He accomplished something and felt proud of it, you accomplished nothing. I'm not sure I get the point of your story.

    Accualt on
  • RichardTauberRichardTauber Kvlt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Deswa wrote: »
    Its a unique bow in Diablo 2. The best bow I believe.

    Well, it's certainly the best bow in Diablo 1. Guess it's in two also.

    RichardTauber on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    this thread basically embodies everything i dislike about gaming.

    given that blizzard could hire an army to kill me and everyone i love, though, it seems that mine is not a common attitude.

    carry on.

    Seriously. Artificial character strength increase through items is boring. I want my character to perform better in a game because I have gotten better at the game.

    Inquisitor on
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    this thread basically embodies everything i dislike about gaming.

    given that blizzard could hire an army to kill me and everyone i love, though, it seems that mine is not a common attitude.

    carry on.

    Seriously. Artificial character strength increase through items is boring. I want my character to perform better in a game because I have gotten better at the game.

    Pretty much all RPG's have that aspect to them though, you're not directly controlling how good the "character", is you're deciding how good they get at something and that task becomes easier for them. Increasing hitpoints, more dialogue options, better hacking skills, new abilities. None of it is because the player is actually better at the game, that's pretty much what RPG's are about. Even in a more action oriented game like Mass Effect how well you shoot isn't just about how good you are at FPS / TPS games, it's about how high you've levelled up your skills with that weapon and what model you're using.

    subedii on
  • ToyDToyD Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    You know, if it's the collection there-of and not necessarily, the LOOT you want, I would try viva pinata. If you can make your way past the fact that it's got no "combat system" per-se (pinatas do fight) and it IS kid themed, it's actually one hell of a collection game. Complicated as all hell.

    But, if you're wanting the dungeon crawl, well, this isn't for you.

    ToyD on
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  • TrevorTrevor Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I'm not positive the loot system will be quite as robust, but I'm personally getting excited about collecting different guns and things in Borderlands. I will probably play that game for months and do a little jig every time I find a purple 1911-looking gun with a blade on it. I love me some guns and collecting things.

    Trevor on
  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    this thread basically embodies everything i dislike about gaming.

    given that blizzard could hire an army to kill me and everyone i love, though, it seems that mine is not a common attitude.

    carry on.

    Seriously. Artificial character strength increase through items is boring. I want my character to perform better in a game because I have gotten better at the game.

    This is one reason I really enjoyed the hell out of Guild Wars. Amazing artwork and music aside, the fact that loot played such a small part in how well you did made me insanely happy. I don't want new loot, I want new skills and abilities.

    Darmak on
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  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I can only take Diablo and its cousins in small doses before it starts feeling like Progress Quest, but if you dress it up in spaceships and pewpew lasers I'm happy enough to grind until I can install 500 TW PPCs or whatever in all my turret slots. On that note, I remember finding the demo for a Russian game called "Star Wolves" kind of fun, an RPG where you told little fightercraft what to do, with loot and skill trees. Has anyone ever played it, or the sequel? How were they?

    Orogogus on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    subedii wrote: »

    Pretty much all RPG's have that aspect to them though, you're not directly controlling how good the "character", is you're deciding how good they get at something and that task becomes easier for them. Increasing hitpoints, more dialogue options, better hacking skills, new abilities. None of it is because the player is actually better at the game, that's pretty much what RPG's are about. Even in a more action oriented game like Mass Effect how well you shoot isn't just about how good you are at FPS / TPS games, it's about how high you've levelled up your skills with that weapon and what model you're using.

    I agree. Which is why I prefer games without leveling and games with a low emphasis on loot.

    Obviously I don't play much RPGs these days.

    Some PnP games do a pretty good job of capturing the fun of getting loot. Trying to think of other games that are all about loot that aren't MMOs is proving tougher than I thought.

    Inquisitor on
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I see so-called artificial means of getting power as just another extension of skill.

    In FPSs it takes twitch precision to become good at shooting other people.

    In RPGs it takes the patience to level and search for the high end secret loot.

    And yeah, in RPGs a lot of people don't have the patience to find things for themselves, but similarly a lot of people hack/cheat in FPSs as well.

    In RPG terms, FPSs take Dexterity and RPGs take Stamina.

    UncleSporky on
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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    When I play Ninja Gaiden and I have become good enough to dance through my enemies like a storm of steel, leaving nothing but dismembered corpses in my wake, I feel a lot more awesome than when I was "patient" enough to find a great way to grind a 3x3 square of golems in Disgaea with a 3x3 attack. In one, I have improved and gained skills as a player; in the other, I have not improved, but my character has. I prefer the first. Because I like to feel awesome.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • RichardTauberRichardTauber Kvlt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    When I play Ninja Gaiden and I have become good enough to dance through my enemies like a storm of steel, leaving nothing but dismembered corpses in my wake, I feel a lot more awesome than when I was "patient" enough to find a great way to grind a 3x3 square of golems in Disgaea with a 3x3 attack. In one, I have improved and gained skills as a player; in the other, I have not improved, but my character has. I prefer the first. Because I like to feel awesome.

    I play games because they're fun.

    RichardTauber on
  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I like loot-based games, and I like non-loot based games. I generally don't find that the presence or absence of loot has any impact on how much I enjoy a game.

    BahamutZERO on
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  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    When I play Ninja Gaiden and I have become good enough to dance through my enemies like a storm of steel, leaving nothing but dismembered corpses in my wake, I feel a lot more awesome than when I was "patient" enough to find a great way to grind a 3x3 square of golems in Disgaea with a 3x3 attack. In one, I have improved and gained skills as a player; in the other, I have not improved, but my character has. I prefer the first. Because I like to feel awesome.

    I play games because they're fun.

    well then you can roll around in the muck with the other peasants.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • SkyGheNeSkyGheNe Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    When I play Ninja Gaiden and I have become good enough to dance through my enemies like a storm of steel, leaving nothing but dismembered corpses in my wake, I feel a lot more awesome than when I was "patient" enough to find a great way to grind a 3x3 square of golems in Disgaea with a 3x3 attack. In one, I have improved and gained skills as a player; in the other, I have not improved, but my character has. I prefer the first. Because I like to feel awesome.

    I play games because they're fun.

    Good for you? Like, are you responding to him about his opinion or what?

    SkyGheNe on
  • RichardTauberRichardTauber Kvlt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    When I play Ninja Gaiden and I have become good enough to dance through my enemies like a storm of steel, leaving nothing but dismembered corpses in my wake, I feel a lot more awesome than when I was "patient" enough to find a great way to grind a 3x3 square of golems in Disgaea with a 3x3 attack. In one, I have improved and gained skills as a player; in the other, I have not improved, but my character has. I prefer the first. Because I like to feel awesome.

    I play games because they're fun.

    well then you can roll around in the muck with the other peasants.

    I'll be over here, squealing like a pig, kind sir.

    RichardTauber on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Maybe Death Spank will fulfill your loot gathering needs, whenever it comes out. There's a thread here in G&T with some trailers.

    Inquisitor on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    When I play Ninja Gaiden and I have become good enough to dance through my enemies like a storm of steel, leaving nothing but dismembered corpses in my wake, I feel a lot more awesome than when I was "patient" enough to find a great way to grind a 3x3 square of golems in Disgaea with a 3x3 attack. In one, I have improved and gained skills as a player; in the other, I have not improved, but my character has. I prefer the first. Because I like to feel awesome.

    I play games because they're fun.

    well then you can roll around in the muck with the other peasants.

    I'll be over here, squealing like a pig, kind sir.

    see that you do.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • El GuacoEl Guaco Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I don't think it's entirely fair to say that loot is just a matter of patience or stamina in all RPG's. I played WoW for over 2 years before quitting, mainly because of the grind BUT the best loot required more than just patience, it required a team of committed and skilled players working together to execute a strategy to defeat bosses. Boss fights had the best loot and it wasn't a matter of clicking backstab 90 bazillion times. I think one of the reasons for WoW's success is its loot system that is coupled to the means of getting it. I ultimately quit because the requirements for more loot required me to treat it like a 2nd job rather than just a good time.

    Loot is a positive incentive but I grow weary when it's the only thing. I recently reinstalled Diablo2, and damn it was boring to play because my only interest was finding rare items. The sense of adventure was gone and it just became a very strange kind of loot roulette. I will probably play the hell out of Diablo 3, but I'm hoping it's because there's more to do than just hope for that rare drop on a boss.

    I'm really looking forward to Borderlands, because the idea of strange new weapons hitting the ground will help add extra incentive to senseless killing. In other FPS's I've actually avoided conflict because it tends to get monotonous, where the levels are just an excuse for you to kill more alien-zombies rather than give a sense of adventure or story. (I quit Far Cry right before the last boss, because I don't care enough about the lame story to take on 18 ninjas wielding grenade launchers in a closed room.) But the promise of phat lewt for killing random shit might actually cause me to seek out trouble rather than avoid it. Remember the glory days of Doom and Duke Nuke'Em when it was so satisfying to find the secret room where you'd obtain an earth shattering weapon like a rocket launcher or the BFG? You felt like you accomplished something special and as a bonus you got to shoot a ridiculously overpowered weapon so that you could kick even more ass. Nowadays, FPS's give you nearly all the weapons right away or they are "balanced" so that they don't make the game too easy. The idea of gun loot may resurrect that feeling of risk/reward in shooters that is currently missing.

    Man, I kinda went off on a tangent there.

    El Guaco on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    the "ding" satisfaction of leveling up or getting a new item is a fine thing but it shouldn't be the only thing, or the main thing, driving a game. that is bizarre and shallow. it should complement gameplay that is actually fun in itself. this is why Borderlands looks exciting to me.

    Evil Multifarious on
  • El GuacoEl Guaco Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    the "ding" satisfaction of leveling up or getting a new item is a fine thing but it shouldn't be the only thing, or the main thing, driving a game. that is bizarre and shallow. it should complement gameplay that is actually fun in itself. this is why Borderlands looks exciting to me.

    Exactly. WoW was actually pretty good at this, it was fun to play just for the adventure of it but leveling up and loot were strong incentives by themselves. The Fallout series was good about this as well, with random guns and such to provide a sense of reward for constantly risking your neck in the Wastelands. I think I spent more time in Oblivion looking for loot and felt that the story got in the way, but I know others feel the opposite.

    El Guaco on
  • IceBurnerIceBurner It's cold and there are penguins.Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Loot + Crafting + Skill and Patience Required ~ Monster Hunter, for those interested in such things.

    IceBurner on
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  • greeblegreeble Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    As far as loot based games, I heard Titan's Quest is a pretty decent Diablo II knockoff. It and its expansion are on Steam for $20 I've been meaning to pick it up.

    greeble on
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  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Ironically I care very little about actually finding loot or getting level ups in most grindy/crawly games - I care about planning the characters. I've probably spent as much time with spreadsheets, skill planners, and gear lists as I have actually playing Diablo II, and that's probably the time I enjoyed more anyway.

    Give me jillions of viable character builds, be it based around gear or skill sets or both, and I am a happy man.

    JihadJesus on
  • mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Ironically I care very little about actually finding loot or getting level ups in most grindy/crawly games - I care about planning the characters. I've probably spent as much time with spreadsheets, skill planners, and gear lists as I have actually playing Diablo II, and that's probably the time I enjoyed more anyway.

    Give me jillions of viable character builds, be it based around gear or skill sets or both, and I am a happy man.

    This is one of the things that I like to do as well. I also dislike when items are restricted by class. I want to give my wizard a giant sword and armor instead of using his spells, so let me do it!

    mrflippy on
  • NATIKNATIK DenmarkRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I have a collector personality, I love making a list of items to find, areas to conquer or species to kill and the game for me is more about completing that list of made-up objectives then anything else.

    I try to find a set of every armor and weapon in RPGs and stash them somewhere, I always want to conquer or settle every little peice of land or space in strategi games, I want all buildings and units in RTS's, I want to explore every area and kill every enemy in FPS's, etc, etc.

    To me Diablo 2 is one of the best games ever due to the item collection part, I have 2 active characters and 4 mule accounts with items I am collecting.

    Winning or losing is irrelevant, it's the collection that counts.

    NATIK on
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  • CentipeedCentipeed Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Right now I'm nearing the acquisition of every single ultimate weapon in Rogue Galaxy, which some of you may not have played but is an awesome JRPG on the PS2. It's all about getting the right weapons and then levelling them up, after which they can be combined to form a stronger weapon.

    The fact that it's easy to auto-level weapons makes it more fun, of course.

    Centipeed on
  • SorensonSorenson Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    For me, it's not so much that I hate the idea of loot (Christ, if anything I'm one of the most loot-and-money-hungry bastards you can imagine - Oblivion is like cocaine for me) but rather it's the ridiculous levels and ranges of power that you see in loot, which (A) nesseccitates that you constantly upgrade your equipment every few levels in order to stay competative, which can be a nightmare depending on the particular equipment setup and range (Anarchy Online is an example of how hellish this is), (B) creates massive disparities between different groups of people, which usually makes PVP at anything but max level and with a pre-defined list of gear a rape-fest for one party or another, and (C) reduces the psychological and combat effectiveness of extrordinary/legendary gear by making it available to anyone who spends enough time grinding one spot and thus makes the use of player-created equipment moot (I want to see a game where legendary shit is one-of-a-kind and where you have people constantly fighting over ownership for it), (D) usually results in retarded levels of inflation you hit for equipment progression (five thousand gold for a weapon that does only twice the damage of this weapon that costs 50 gold? Are you fucking kidding me?) and (E) often plays far more of a role in determining effectiveness than the PC's own abilities themselves, which again leads to the issue of rapid replacement.

    In my eyes, loot should really be something special, like the big payday after a long hard slog through a dungeon full of the undead (Oblivion's loot and the hocking of said loot for cold hard cash) or that wonderful surprise that nobody could have ever predicted that gives you an edge over others - making it something where you go "OK, go to here and grind for X, then here and grind for Y" makes it meaningless and mundane.

    Sorenson on
  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    the "ding" satisfaction of leveling up or getting a new item is a fine thing but it shouldn't be the only thing, or the main thing, driving a game. that is bizarre and shallow. it should complement gameplay that is actually fun in itself. this is why Borderlands looks exciting to me.
    Could it... could it be that human beings like to explore and collect things, and your average RPG is cheaper and less time consuming than procuring a shitload of stamps/coins/buttons/cards/cars/computer accessories/assorted lengths of wire/frilly dolls? Don't act like I don't know about your dolls and how frilly they are.

    Monger on
  • mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Monger wrote: »
    the "ding" satisfaction of leveling up or getting a new item is a fine thing but it shouldn't be the only thing, or the main thing, driving a game. that is bizarre and shallow. it should complement gameplay that is actually fun in itself. this is why Borderlands looks exciting to me.
    Could it... could it be that human beings like to explore and collect things, and your average RPG is cheaper and less time consuming than procuring a shitload of stamps/coins/buttons/cards/cars/computer accessories/assorted lengths of wire/frilly dolls? Don't act like I don't know about your dolls and how frilly they are.

    Man, whatever.


    ...I only collect non-frilly dolls.

    mrflippy on
  • Venkman90Venkman90 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    A polarising issue it seems, I agree with the sentiment that loot cannot make up for a bad game, however some of the most acclaimed RPG's pay almost no attention to one of the most addictive elements of the genre.

    I guess my point is, like it or not two of Blizzards biggest franchises are out and out loot crawls (VERY well designed ones with good gameplay mechanics) and I am suprised more folk are not catering to this market for non PC gamers.

    Venkman90 on
  • LlyLly Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The lack of loot was one of the biggest issues i had with AoC. And it's not, for me at least, only about stats. I like the variation of looks that they offer. And being able to recognise the gear other people have and think "Oh cool, i want one of those!"

    Lly on
  • DyvionDyvion Back in Sunny Florida!!Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    IceBurner wrote: »
    Loot + Crafting + Skill and Patience Required ~ Monster Hunter, for those interested in such things.

    Emphasis on actual player skill. Loot helps, but loot will get you absolutely nowhere if you don't have the skill to use your chosen weapon.

    Dyvion on
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