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Choosing a Martial Art

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Posts

  • PirateJonPirateJon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Oh lord. aikido? krav? Ninjitsu? Ninjas, please.

    Three things in no order:

    1) the "kiyah" is a training tool to remind students to breathe. You forget to breathe, you gass out and lose the fight. Simple.

    2) Whoever said "you should take Judo because everyone should take Judo" was right. You learn to throw people. The first time you really launch someone... :D

    3) If you want to know how to fight, pick a school that has a competition fight team. Not a board breaking team, or forms team, or a point sparring team, but a FIGHT team. The level of focus and commitment will make a difference in your own training, whether you compete or not.

    all perfectionists are mediocre in their own eyes
  • EgosEgos God Hand Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    PirateJon wrote: »
    Oh lord. aikido? krav? Ninjitsu? Ninjas, please.

    Three things in no order:

    1) the "kiyah" is a training tool to remind students to breathe. You forget to breathe, you gass out and lose the fight. Simple.

    *nods* Definitely a hang up I just have to get over.

    XBL: Invisible Man PSN: Indrik
  • FantasmaFantasma Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    CangoFett wrote: »
    So yeah, this is a train wreck.
    a few things

    1) Striking vital points:
    Yes, you can poke a man in the eyes, it will probably hurt him. If you are that accurate. Try punching a resisting dude in the face. Any part of it. Kinda hard? Now try poking him in his small eyes. If it works, he will be slightly annoyed because you're probably not gonna have too much power in it. If it doesnt work you either have missed, or jammed your fingers on your cheek. Goodjob. You want to keep dirty fighting in mind? Great. Dont rely on it though. Thats like saying you dont need to learn how to cook a steak because you have a great steak sauce. Get some fundamentals.

    Are you saying that learning this is useless?, I really don't understand your post, the OP wants to train in martial arts, and you call this useless, what a great service attacking and insulting what is just part of basic training in order to learn to fight and defense oneself.

    Anyway, you should consider creating a school yourself so that we stop talking trash.

    Hear my warnings, unbelievers. We have raised altars in this land so that we may sacrifice you to our gods. There is no hope in opposing the inevitable. Put down your arms, unbelievers, and bow before the forces of Chaos!
  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Are you Rudy Able? Cango may have been a little rude, but the basic point was correct. If for some reason I was to get in a fight, I'd be happy to have an opponent trying to "disable me with one hit/once/gouge/whatever their preferred attack is". Those are all fairly easy to defend against. A sustained attack at all levels and angles is much harder to fight off.

    Now, don't get me wrong. If the attacker is somewhat preoccupied, those have their place. They're not "awful" or "worthless", but they're not something to count on as the solution to self-defense. Maybe as a part of an overall martial arts education, sure. That's just my opinion I guess. Take it for what it's worth.

    Walkerdog on MTGO
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  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Fantasma wrote: »
    CangoFett wrote: »
    So yeah, this is a train wreck.
    a few things

    1) Striking vital points:
    Yes, you can poke a man in the eyes, it will probably hurt him. If you are that accurate. Try punching a resisting dude in the face. Any part of it. Kinda hard? Now try poking him in his small eyes. If it works, he will be slightly annoyed because you're probably not gonna have too much power in it. If it doesnt work you either have missed, or jammed your fingers on your cheek. Goodjob. You want to keep dirty fighting in mind? Great. Dont rely on it though. Thats like saying you dont need to learn how to cook a steak because you have a great steak sauce. Get some fundamentals.

    Are you saying that learning this is useless?, I really don't understand your post, the OP wants to train in martial arts, and you call this useless, what a great service attacking and insulting what is just part of basic training in order to learn to fight and defense oneself.

    Anyway, you should consider creating a school yourself so that we stop talking trash.

    Man, I clearly said its not useless. Its useful, but relying on it is stupid. Its a low percentage move that has a huge chance for critical failure. Yknow, if im in a rough fight with a dude, am I gonna be fighting dirty? Heckz yeah. I wont hesitate to eyegouge etc. But if your plan in a fight is, "Im gonna eyegouge this dude, and thats it" thats not gonna work. You gotta look at what your strategy is, and what its actually gonna acompllish. This applies to all types of fighting. You KO'd a guy? Great, you got until he wakes up to jet outta there and/or call the cops. You choked him out? Good, you got about 10 seconds to jet/restrain him/call the cops. You dislocated his shoulder with a kimura from guard? Great, but hes still on top of you, just with a dislocated shoulder. You still gotta get to a better position. You eyegouged him? Great, its harder for him to see and he hurts alot.

    I will contest however, that eye gouges are not a basic part of self defense and fighting. A sprawl is a basic part. Hooks and Jabs are basic parts. Knowing the difference between mount, guard, halfguard, and side control are basic parts. Eye gouges are quite like icing on a cake. The cake is your actual fighting ability, your basics. Its whats important. Eye gouges and dirty fighting gimmicks are like icing. They can make the rest of the cake better, they can sometimes be okay on their own, but you really need the cake to make them worth while.

  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Learn Tai Chi. I've heard nothing but good things.

    You'll look kind of fruity, and it's anything but an offensively focused martial form, but if you're good, it's absolutely brutal.

  • ArminasArminas Student of Life Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Reiten wrote: »
    There is no such thing as "traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu" There's no Japanese jujitsu or ninjitsu. There is Japanese jujutsu. There is ninjutsu. Jiu-jitsu is a mispelling created by the the Brazil based styles and jujitsu is by English speakers who massacre Japanese. No traditional Japanese martial arts place would call itself jujitsu or even worse, jiu-jitsu. If they use those, they're Brazil based styles or Americans that can't spell.

    I assume you had a typo, but they actually spelled it 'jiu-jitsu' and really did call themselves traditional Japanese JJ just to be clear. I didn't really want to argue with them about it *shrug*. And I don't think it's such a travesty to spell foreign words in a slightly different manner.

    And this thread has somehow pushed itself into another debate on the merits of various martial arts. I tire of this. Time and time again, everyone goes all apeshit for vying that their favorite martial art is the best. But I've always wondered if practitioners of one art really have the authority to say that theirs is the best. In fact, I don't know who would be an authority on saying which martial art is the best; how many years of experience in different martial arts is required before you can really say what's awesome? And by that point, you're old, and not as strong as that 26 year old young gun next to you, so your style and way of thought is bound to have changed. I don't think we'll hit a consensus on that anytime soon. There are so many factors to consider like purpose, the opponents' size and fitness level, the environment, etc. I have a preference for Eastern martial arts and many of the philosophies that they push. (A blanket statement, I know, but let's not nitpick here) Like self-improvement, patience, confidence and control. While I prefer such an environment, it doesn't necessarily mean I dislike the competition of a more sport-oriented school. But I feel like schools that have can maintain focus on the non-competitive aspects of a combative sport/art, regardless of what specific sport/art is actually taught, tend to attract a more helpful crowd in actually learning something.

    I was told 3 things in order of importance about looking for schools when trying out a new martial art
    - Never sign up for a lengthy contract (>2 or 3 months). You might be getting yourself into something you can't get out of, and what kind of self-respecting school traps their students?
    - Examine the people, if you hate them in the first few lessons, chances are you'll keep hating them. And you won't have any fun or get anything out of it if you're distracted by this.
    - Look at who teaches the class, does the head instructor actually get on the mat and do the same exercises you do? They don't necessarily have to head every lesson, but having access to the master of the school is important if you ever want to learn it first hand. A lot of people cross train so you never know if you're getting their version of the lesson or the school's version. Oh, and I expect the master to be able to complete most (if not all) of the exercises that are requested of myself. I know they're usually older and probably don't have the same stamina, but let's be reasonable. I wouldn't expect a 65 year old man to do the same 5 mile run I'm asked to. Though this happens once in a while!

    As for all the talk about the fine points on this or that art, it's really up to you what you want to take out of it. If you plan on starting shit at every bar you go to, then these points might be important to you, especially if your bars are in the West Bank. If you plan on being a ring fighter or going into MMA, it's also important to learn about non-fatal attacks because killing your opponent is frowned upon. If it's about defending yourself on the street, the first 90% of self-defense is avoiding a dangerous situation. Only when you have FAILED this first 90% do you ever get into a situation where you will have to exchange blows.

    PS
    I think it's a little silly to throw or do groundwork in a self-defense situation. Most of the time you would be targeted by a group of people. And as you're busying throwing or wrestling with one of them, the other two OR FOUR will have have begun to kick you already. But hey! If it's one on one, do as you please.

  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    See, thats the point, even if you want to stay standing, doesnt mean you are going to. And if you are gonna be fighting more than 1 guy, you are in huge troubles anyways. And throwing a guy on his head onto concrete is one of the more effective things you can do in any fight. Pure grapplers beat pure strikes the vast majority of the time in 1v1 fights. And if a striker cant take on one grappler, what makes you think he can take on 2 or 3 or 4 determiend fighters?

    As far as non competetive schools having a better learning enviroment, I respectfully disagree. Competitions weed out whos training hard, and whos training what works, from who isnt. You dont see a bunch of guys on a field saying "We are the fastest runners ever, but we dont actually run in competitions, we only run if we are chased" The fastest runners are generally the guys who actually run. The guys who are going to track meets to compete with others, to better themselves.

    And that, in my opinion, is the true spirt of competition. Its not about challenging the other guy to prove that i'm better, its about having the other guy challenge me to improve myself.


    And yes, people can say "oh, this art is better than this." Its quite easy. Look at the old UFCs, they were a competition of who had the best style. A Ninjitsu guy, with his grappling ability, even though it was horrible, was still enough to beat a much stronger, much more athletic, boxer. He, however, was not able to last 2 minutes against a good kickboxer/submission fighter. If you look at the greatest fighters in the world, they are all either Great boxers, and decent grapplers, or Great grapplers, and decent boxers. Or great at both. Even the pro fighters who dont like to grapple, such as former Light Heavyweight champion Chuck Lidell, train in grappling, because its something you need to know to be a good fighter. Of his 27 fights, he has won one by submission, the rest were decisions/strikes. He has amazing takedown defense, and hes a purple belt because when someone does try to take him down, he needs to be ready.


    Now, if you are seeking martial arts for the purpose of meditation/self discipline/etc, thats cool. Personally I have doubts about alot of "Traditional" schools that talk about that too. Frankly I cant see a school were the majority of the students are quite obese, being full of self discipline.


    In all of this, dont get me wrong, please, I'm not trying to say, "Oh, sign up for BJJ right now or you are stupid and are wasting time" Its your choice, its your money. I just want to see people knowing the reality of things. That fights go to the ground, that grappling is an important skill, that if you havent tried your technique against a resisting opponet in a gym, you do not *know* that its gonna work in a real fight. That competition weeds out what works and what doesnt.

    Again, check out Bullshido like, 70% of the site is just people being dumb, but the other 30% is golden. They also have plenty of videos of grapplers vs non grapplers, to show you how quickly that can end a fight. If you wanted to see more videos like that, or had questions about it, I'd be happy to answer PMs.

    And yeah you were right about the other thing. Avoid lengthy contracts if you can, make sure you arent training with jerks. If they dont offer a free class be suspicious.

    The 250lb Mr Utah challenged the 150lb BJJ instructor Pedro Sauer to a fight in 1992. The fight went to the ground quickly. After a few moments of attempting to throw punches to no success, Mr Utah tried to eye gouge Pedro. As he tried that, it set himself up to be armbarred my Pedro. Mr Utah lost to a man 100lbs lighter than him.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2008
    I was walking past an Oom Yung Doe school today (they are reputed to be full of shit), so I went in. They were full of shit. So don't go there.

  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Geeze doc, get to the point of a post. No need to wall of text it a mindless rant on your high horse that repeats the same drivel over and over.

    Gosh

  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Fantasma wrote: »
    CangoFett wrote: »
    So yeah, this is a train wreck.
    a few things

    1) Striking vital points:
    Yes, you can poke a man in the eyes, it will probably hurt him. If you are that accurate. Try punching a resisting dude in the face. Any part of it. Kinda hard? Now try poking him in his small eyes. If it works, he will be slightly annoyed because you're probably not gonna have too much power in it. If it doesnt work you either have missed, or jammed your fingers on your cheek. Goodjob. You want to keep dirty fighting in mind? Great. Dont rely on it though. Thats like saying you dont need to learn how to cook a steak because you have a great steak sauce. Get some fundamentals.

    Are you saying that learning this is useless?, I really don't understand your post, the OP wants to train in martial arts, and you call this useless, what a great service attacking and insulting what is just part of basic training in order to learn to fight and defense oneself.

    Anyway, you should consider creating a school yourself so that we stop talking trash.

    Strikes to 'vital points' are great and all, and most arts are going to eventually address them, once fundamentals are developed and the student has background to know when they're worth attempting. For someone asking for advice about what to train, "learn to strike vital points" is a ridiculous response. There are styles out there that place more of an emphasis on vital points, and if you want to reccomend one, awesome.

    gkcmatch_zps97480250.jpg
    remember pluto? Once a planet but now a pseudo
    funny how information changes the facts that you know
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Arminas wrote: »

    PS
    I think it's a little silly to throw or do groundwork in a self-defense situation. Most of the time you would be targeted by a group of people. And as you're busying throwing or wrestling with one of them, the other two OR FOUR will have have begun to kick you already. But hey! If it's one on one, do as you please.

    Most of the time the first one or two people to attack you will attempt to grab and hold you for the others or to push or throw you to the ground where the group can do as it pleases with you. Training in grappling can help you avoid being taken down, recover quickly when taken down, and to remove yourself from hazardous bottom positions if taken down, and to keep a clinching attacker between yourself and his fellows - it is very relevant to self defense to study all ranges of combat. Anyone who tells you otherwise is behind the times, plain and simple.

    Also, did you just paint "Sport oriented" and "eastern" as polar opposites?

    The three points you were told were good, however. I'd say in the defense of contracts, once you've been at a school for a few months and are comfortable there, consider a contract or long term plan if it will save you money. If the place has no option to train month to month, I would almost guarantee it is not a good place to train - they're trying to lock up the school-age market money of layperson moms and dads.

    I've trained in a lot of martial arts, in a lot of schools. I can find nothing to recommend not taking the "best" martial art around. I've seen hundreds of attempts at justification, but mostly they boil down to "I'm repeating what my instructor taught me as a rationalization for why we don't spar harder"

    What makes a club or class "good" in my mind is the efficacy of the training. If you aren't learning to fight well, or at least learning one facet of fighting well, whatever neat philosophy or nifty pajama you get to wear is ultimately disgraced by you as you erode the practices of the practitioners before you.


    One great thing about judo or brazilian jiu-jitsu is just how quick you can begin traing hard and just how quickly you'll get to a point of visible improvement over people who don't train.

    I would ask the OP a few clarifying questions:

    Where do you stand on the idea of competing? Say a 1 is "I am Mr. Myagi and I think it is wrong to compete in fisticuffs" and a 5 is "I might like to try it" and a 10 is "I pick fights for fun and just want to take some classes to get a little better - where do I send my tape for The Ulitmate Fighter", where are you from 1-10?

    Does the idea of working with weapons appeal to you?

    Is practical self defense an immediate concern for you? (IE are you posting this because you are being bullied e'ry day right now or something)

    The OP is looking for a "casual or pragmatic" atmosphere - to me that means something more like a BJJ or MMA environment (I'm taking casual to mean in terms of uniforms and hierarchy and atmosphere, not intensity of exercise). My last BJJ instructor talked like a surfer and winced every time someone called him by a formal title.

  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Johnny Cache says what Cango thinks. Johnny, im gonna send all my posts to you now, and have you revise them first. Be prepared to hit the TF2 thread.


    But yeah, as far as casual environment, you will find that in alot of "Sport" based schools like boxing or BJJ. Though there are some BJJ schools that are big on tradition/routine/bowing constantly/referring to the instructor as Master Lloyd, in many everyone is on a first name basis. And a lack of belts in things like Kali/Boxing/Muay Thai seems to lead to very relaxed attitudes.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    One thing, you can go TOO competitive with a school, if the school is a place where the fight team is the only focus of the school - sometimes the payin' customer off the street is regarded as a means of keeping the lights on for the ring fighters.

    When shopping for a school, you should pay attention to what your tuition buys you. Does the place have extra facilities like weightrooms or saunas? How often is it open? Which of the offered classes can you take for your regular fee and which (if any) cost extra? You might find, at the right school, you can crosstrain in more than one art for the same price or a small extra fee.

    Also, for God's sake, pay attention to how clean and safe the place is. Grappling mats should smell like bleach, not feet.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Glaeal wrote: »
    Seen alot of jiu-jitsu and judo recommendations
    Might I suggest NINjutsu? (that's right, what those pesky ninja do)
    I've been doing it for almost 5 years now after previously doing Karate, TKD and jiu-jutsu and I know exactly where you're coming from. Kiai/kyah/grunts just made me feel a bit uncomfortable in some respects and when I started ninjutsu I realised there was none of that (although sometimes at the higher grades there is) and also the rigidity of Karate and TKD wasn't there, which I really liked.

    It may be that I found the perfect style of dojo for me (a Bujinkan Brian Dojo - or BBD - if anyone's familiar with it) but it felt more like the training was more relaxed and more fun (basically I never felt like "oh, I can't be bothered training tonight" because, although it was a hard workout at times, it never felt like a chore).

    The whole idea behind it is to avoid fights in the first place, and where unavoidable, how to end the fight quickly - whether through some form of lock to subdue the assailant, or by giving yourself the space you need to get away - and tried to avoid the "this is how you kill someone with your pinky" approach (although they might teach you that too...just in case ;-) )

    It covers the use of, and defense against, hand-to-hand sparring, locks, throws, grapples, groundwork and weapons (or tools/extensions, your body is the weapon ;-)) - which basically helps to prepare you for most situations - and tries to provide techniques that you can adapt against different fighting styles/weights/heights etc and also that can be used by different fighting styles/weights/heights etc. So you don't have to be super-fit man-beast to do it...but if you wanna go for that too, you can.

    [ /sales pitch]

    There are maybe a dozen reputable "Ninjitsu" schools in the US, and they are all connected to Stephen K Hayes, who, to my knowledge, is the only Ninjitsu instructor taken seriously, in the US at least, by the rest of the martial arts community.

    Meh. Judo.

    Got to mention this - Stephen K Hayes is not the only "reputable" teacher of taijitsu - there are several "legitimate" instructors in the US. At least, "legitimate" in that they have lineages that lead back to the Japanese head of the Bujinkan, Masaaki Hatsumi. Ninjitsu is usually a very watered down, weirdly taught martial art, though, and it sets off huge alarm bells in the minds of practitioners of almost every other art.

    While I'm talking shit, there are only two schools of fighting I actively caution people to unconditionally avoid, because a good school is going to be the exception that proves the rule - they are Wing Chun, which I personally believe teaches deeply flawed body mechanics that actually turn untutored people into worse fighters then what walked through the door, and Aikido, which is rooted in pacifistic religious practice and thus, for a non-pacifist, an inferior option.

  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Again I agree with Mr Cache, go over every school with a fine tooth comb. Ive seen schools that treat most students like ATM machines to help train their fighters. And just because a school says they teach BJJ or Muay Thai or another reputable art, still check that stuff out. There are plenty of guys who say they have a BJJ black belt, but couldnt tell you the difference between a can opener and an arm triangle. Find out their lineage of who taught them. Question everything. Also, if someone says they have a blackbelt in Muay Thai, they are probably lying to you.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    There is way too much internet tough guy going on in here. If you want to keep arguing, take it to D&D or SE++.

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