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Moment of the Week 9/17/08

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Posts

  • natxcrossnatxcross Registered User
    edited September 2008
    natxcross wrote: »
    Meh. Last time I gave a comic more than two issues it was All-Star Batman, and that was painful; if it picks up, let me know eh? I'll give each new guy a chance, 'cos, well like you say, War Journal?, but I'm not optimistic. I mean, I wasn't even expecting much from this arc; just a little more of the same sort of style, y'know?

    All-Star Batman is the greatest work to be produced in the medium you philistine

    If being a philistine means enjoying readable, coherent stories, then yes, I'm a philistine.

  • Bloods EndBloods End Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    from what I understood PWJ is actually in the marvel universe proper while MAX is not in continuity

    When they release those Marvel Secret Files or whatever they are they reference Punisher taking down Irish terrorists and fighting a slaving ring.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Yeah. They get to pick and choose what MK and MAX stories get incorporated, but War Journal is undoubtedly the 616 Punisher.

    Anyway, I think the idea that Frank hasn't killed an innocent is as ridonculous as during WWH when it was determined that Banner-Hulk managed to never kill anyone. Anyway, for those of you who cum all over themselves at how great Ennis is, there is a sequel to Welcome Back, Frank coming out in December. I thought it was telling that his interview in CBR about it ended with, "If you want to date it more specifically, there's 'Brokeback Mountain' gags in it."

    I don't particularly like Ennis (which I've made clear before), or much of Punisher in retrospect. You could say the same thing about Manhunter doing an arc that is also about the women who disappeared around Juarez. That doesn't make the actual stories anything alike. And nothing I've read indicates that Hurwitz is writing anything like the Jigsaw arc in PWJ.

  • ServoServo Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2008
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    I know PWJ and Max aren't directly tied together, but PWJ just did a Jigsaw arc. And he
    Spoiler:
    I have some issues with their timing.

    Now I could see tying Max and Knights together, but don't tie War Journal to Max. I won't have a problem with Jigsaw until I see it play out, although I was liking that the majority of the encounters in both Knights and Max were original characters. We'll see how this goes when it comes to that.

    yeah, that was more my point with the "frank kills an innocent" plotline. it's not that i'm against it or something, it's that it just happened in war journal.

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  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    I know PWJ and Max aren't directly tied together, but PWJ just did a Jigsaw arc. And he
    Spoiler:
    I have some issues with their timing.

    Now I could see tying Max and Knights together, but don't tie War Journal to Max. I won't have a problem with Jigsaw until I see it play out, although I was liking that the majority of the encounters in both Knights and Max were original characters. We'll see how this goes when it comes to that.

    yeah, that was more my point with the "frank kills an innocent" plotline. it's not that i'm against it or something, it's that it just happened in war journal.

    Wait, so both plotlines just happened?! Goddamnit.

    kravensig.gif
    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • AlephAleph Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Anyway, for those of you who cum all over themselves at how great Ennis is, there is a sequel to Welcome Back, Frank coming out in December. I thought it was telling that his interview in CBR about it ended with, "If you want to date it more specifically, there's 'Brokeback Mountain' gags in it."

    Ennis' run on MK Punisher (which is the universe the sequel to Welcome Back, Frank is set in) and his run on MAX Punisher are totally different in tone. Don't use his affinity for juvenile humour when writing MK Punisher as some kind of slight against the greatness that was his MAX run.

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Now wait
    While I love the MAX run, it wasn't the end all be all of great comics
    How many times can you do a "Frank kills the mafia/terrorists / generals fuck shit up" story
    I like the idea of "let me do a longform story, five years in the making" but come on already

  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be the end-all be-all of great Punisher comics, though

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    Spoiler:
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    I think that with the right writer on it it could be better
    If you got a good crime novelist, like they're trying now, I really think that they could top it
    It would be hard, but not impossible

  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be the end-all be-all of great Punisher comics, though

    Quoted for Truth.

    I don't think Ennis can write everything ever, but he's really got a good handle on the Punisher. I also don't think that he's so amazing that no one can top him, I'm just saying it's going to be tough. And no, so far, the new guy is worrying me more than he's making me interested. I thought I read somewhere that this first new writer was going to be the guy who did the "Little Black Book" one-shot, which I liked. Now I go back and look, and it's different people and it's leaving me saying "what happened?"

    kravensig.gif
    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I can't believe it, but I agree with Wiggins. Punisher is not "great". It's a fairly well-written book that stands out for being uncompromising. But it's pretty one-note. Although that is the problem with Punisher in general. I find it amusing and more interesting that the one unifier throughout Fraction's run on PWJ is Frank's relationship to Rhino.

    In the end, Ennis' Punisher reminds me of why I've generally hated Wolverine. For as much as I can enjoy senseless violence, there's no point. At least Fraction was up front about the fact that Frank is a gun, and Jigsaw was all about someone pointing that gun in the direction that they want it to go. But it's funny how people seem to be concerned that he killed an innocent under duress in Mexico (btw, it happened a year ago. Which isn't exactly "just happened" given everything else that's come to pass in PWJ since then) and yet it has barely been mentioned since and doesn't come to a head as far as Clarke finding out until the SI tie-ins next month.

    But guess what. Frank sees the dead kid on literally the last page. The last panel. So exactly how does this qualify you to decide fuck-all about what is going to happen next? I'm not presupposing anything except to say this: Hurwitz is a better author than Ennis. So if nothing else, I expect Frank to seem less like the Mary Sue Ennis created.

  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I can't believe it, but I agree with Wiggins. Punisher is not "great". It's a fairly well-written book that stands out for being uncompromising. But it's pretty one-note. Although that is the problem with Punisher in general. I find it amusing and more interesting that the one unifier throughout Fraction's run on PWJ is Frank's relationship to Rhino.

    In the end, Ennis' Punisher reminds me of why I've generally hated Wolverine. For as much as I can enjoy senseless violence, there's no point. At least Fraction was up front about the fact that Frank is a gun, and Jigsaw was all about someone pointing that gun in the direction that they want it to go. But it's funny how people seem to be concerned that he killed an innocent under duress in Mexico (btw, it happened a year ago. Which isn't exactly "just happened" given everything else that's come to pass in PWJ since then) and yet it has barely been mentioned since and doesn't come to a head as far as Clarke finding out until the SI tie-ins next month.

    But guess what. Frank sees the dead kid on literally the last page. The last panel. So exactly how does this qualify you to decide fuck-all about what is going to happen next? I'm not presupposing anything except to say this: Hurwitz is a better author than Ennis. So if nothing else, I expect Frank to seem less like the Mary Sue Ennis created.

    I think we've established that most of us who are fans are still in "wait-and-see" mode.

    And really, it'll never help your criticisms seem credible or constructive at all to drop words like "Mary Sue" which you know full well will always mean "character I don't like". That's the only consistent way it gets used.

    I understand why you see Frank as a one-note character, but to the people who enjoy the comic, he's just a pure character. He's an unchanging machine while the complexity comes from the original characters and situations created around him. This is the reason we get worried when we see such a drastic shift toward the opposite of that the SECOND someone else takes over. I'm not against adding more depth to the character itself, but not if it makes the book no fun to read anymore.

    kravensig.gif
    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The AGE OF THE SENTRY

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    It's not even a problem with the character
    You can write the character and the stories differently, we're seeing that now
    Ennis wrote stories where Frank killed shit. End of story
    Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
    That gets boring
    I have a feeling this new novelist tack they're on is going to yield some good shit

  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing

    That's not even remotely true. The who and why was always in the forefront. If that's boring to you, that's cool, I'm not going to argue an opinion. But I think you're being unfair to the storytelling. It's formulaic, but well executed. It's the same reason House is entertaining. Strong, improbably consistent (nearly infallible) main character. Same thing happens pretty much every episode, but it's always well done. If it's not your kind of storytelling, that's fine, but it's not bad storytelling.

    kravensig.gif
    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    No it was repetitive as hell
    I got nothing against formulaic stories
    Just not when they're THAT formulaic

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    this argument is formulaic

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Repetitive as hell if you ask me

  • BogartBogart MR. Lady Anime Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Me Too! wrote: »
    It's not even a problem with the character
    You can write the character and the stories differently, we're seeing that now
    Ennis wrote stories where Frank killed shit. End of story
    Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
    That gets boring
    I have a feeling this new novelist tack they're on is going to yield some good shit

    That's a grotesque simplification of Ennis's MAX Punisher run. His stories were as much about the consequences of violence (on both victims and those who perpetrate violence) as much as the violence itself.

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Doesn't change the fact that I still think these next few arcs are going to be a lot better and you people need to grow a pair and accept change, or drop the book

  • BogartBogart MR. Lady Anime Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Doesn't change the fact that I still think these next few arcs are going to be a lot better and you people need to grow a pair and accept change, or drop the book

    It wasn't meant to: it was meant to point out that your (and crimsondudes) description of Ennis's run was incorrect.

    Change is fine, and Ennis had said pretty much everything he wanted with the character to say so great: bring on the new guys. I'll still be buying the book (in trades) and looking forward to it.

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Repetitive as hell if you ask me

    Also, just this close to being a haiku.

    Anyway, I read through the comics I mentioned picking up, and all of them were awesome. Definately getting volume 2 (and beyond, were possible) for Atomic Robo, Invincible and Brit.

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  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Repetitive as hell if you ask me

    Also, just this close to being a haiku.

    Anyway, I read through the comics I mentioned picking up, and all of them were awesome. Definately getting volume 2 (and beyond, were possible) for Atomic Robo, Invincible and Brit.

    The little bit I've seen of Atomic Robo looks pretty cool, I'm gonna have to check it out. And Brit is another Kirkman one, isn't it? I should just say screw it and start getting all of his. I like Invincible and Walking Dead, and the things I've heard about his other books sound like I'll like those too.

    kravensig.gif
    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Describing the Punisher as a Mary-Sue is one of the most mindbogglingly bizarre things I have ever read.

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    Spoiler:
  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Repetitive as hell if you ask me

    Also, just this close to being a haiku.

    Anyway, I read through the comics I mentioned picking up, and all of them were awesome. Definately getting volume 2 (and beyond, where possible) for Atomic Robo, Invincible and Brit.

    The little bit I've seen of Atomic Robo looks pretty cool, I'm gonna have to check it out. And Brit is another Kirkman one, isn't it? I should just say screw it and start getting all of his. I like Invincible and Walking Dead, and the things I've heard about his other books sound like I'll like those too.

    Yup, Kirkman is involved with both Brit and Invincible.

    My only exposure to Brit prior to this was a few shots (apparently from volume 2) in the images/moments thread, which I loved, and the first trade didn't disappoint me. I know very little about Invincible (though I've had a few of the big twists spoiled already, inadvertantly, mind you) and really enjoyed the first trade as well. I have neighbors that have the whole series, so I think I'll borrow from them to catch up and order the trades in slowly as cash permits.

    Atomic Robo is really damned funny, and I re-read it over the weekend and enjoyed it just as much. The style of humour is very similar to Clevinger's 8-Bit Theater work, and I love that series, so it doesn't surprise me that I enjoyed Atomic Robo as much as I did. Aside from the humour and the art style, I liked how the narrative was laid out, particularly the bit with the letter exchange.

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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Repetitive as hell if you ask me
    every argument with wiggin is repetitive

    he states his dumb ass backwards opinion

    people tell him why it is dumb

    and he jams his fingers in his ears and goes lalalalala

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Not allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with you nope
    Fuck yourself with a sideways rake you prick

  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    you could express your opinion in a way that's not saying "it's repetitive" like three times in a row

  • ServoServo Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2008
    Me Too! wrote: »
    It's not even a problem with the character
    You can write the character and the stories differently, we're seeing that now
    Ennis wrote stories where Frank killed shit. End of story
    Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
    That gets boring
    I have a feeling this new novelist tack they're on is going to yield some good shit

    that's totally not the case. the punisher max run was about real-life violence (for the most part) and the effects it has on the victims and the perpetrators. they were repetitive only in the most boiled-down sense, that there were bad guys and frank killed them.

    in the details, the story really weaves in and around the concept of violence and how the perpetrators eventually become addicted to it (the people like rawlins, barracuda, o'brien, zakharov, frank himself even) and how the victims, once exposed, almost never escape the cycle.

    the widowmaker arc is, i think, a keystone in the run. in that arc you see the consequences of both the violence that frank has inflicted on the world and the violence he's inflicted on himself. he's become more or less a monster, a fact of which he is fully cognizant. in fact, when you read the whole series you end up coming across a lot of times he says something along the lines of "if you haven't seen it before, you don't want to". widowmaker also has frank dwelling a lot on his actions in the slavers arc (probably the high water mark in terms of violence in the series, and perhaps coincidentally the best arc in the series.) and how even he can't and doesn't want to keep up that level of savagery. on the flip side, though, is the character of Jenny, displaying the same desire for punishment that frank expresses, but without the willpower to follow it through to its logical conclusion. indeed, the arc also highlights much of what frank has sacrificed in his mission. "the only thing I'm good for is holding them while they die."

    not to mention barracuda! easily the best "supervillain" frank has ever faced (waaaaay better than, say, jigsaw), barracuda's (obviously) a dark mirror into frank himself. all of frank's musings throughout the long cold dark arc are meditations on this subject. that's not even counting the incredible first issue with frank's dream sequence and the excellent reveal of frank's new child.

    basically, claiming that every arc is nothing but frank killing people is...well, missing the point. of course every arc of a punisher comic involves him killing people. that's the whole deal. but do you really think that the slavers arc handled crime and killing in the same way as, say, the barracuda arc? or the widowmaker arc, in which frank was in fact bedridden for almost the entire story?


    incidentally, you say that "who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing". do you remember the people you don't see frank kill? like rawlins, or zakharov?

    tl:dr- the max series involved real-life violence and crime in an unprecedented way for a mainstream superhero comic and functioned as a meditation on violence, the effect it has on its perpetrators and victims, and the concepts of catharsis and vengeance vs. punisherment.

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  • Bloods EndBloods End Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Servo I am going to kiss you on the mouth.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    God damn it Servo, now I'm going to have to read Punisher MAX.

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  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Yeah, I had been perfectly willing to ignore it, but that makes it sound really awesome.

  • ServoServo Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2008
    it is an excellent series

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