[WoW] Rogues - Or how I stopped worrying and learned to facestab

initiatefailure

plus name one aoe fight that's important?

Doing too much aoe on trash packs isn't a reason to nerf something.
The interrupt i can understand as it locks out that spell school for a few seconds and i'm sure pvpers got pissed off so we get the pve nerf because of it. Now 0 rogues will have throwing spec with points in it... hell all it affects is deadly throw now and i completely forgot we had a deadly throw spell. Whatever happened to making all talents an option?


EDIT: too slow

forty

I don't think throwing spec was really intended to be a PvE talent, so just don't pick it up.

Like I said in the other thread, hunters were pretty well raping everyone in AoE with the 3.0 Volley, so they nerfed that. They still seem to be doing all right though.

Javen

They've pretty much said fan of knives is enough in its current iteration where they'll likely have to nerf Yogg 0 in order to keep it possible.

EWom

I was just in an AV where a couple rogues would just run into the battles and stand still spamming FoK. Personally with all the other PVP tools a rogue has, that seems like it shouldn't be a valid pvp tactic.

forty

Javen wrote: »

They've pretty much said fan of knives is enough in its current iteration where they'll likely have to nerf Yogg 0 in order to keep it possible.

Of course they also waffled and said "or maybe you can just overgear it with T9!"

initiatefailure

EWom wrote: »

I was just in an AV where a couple rogues would just run into the battles and stand still spamming FoK. Personally with all the other PVP tools a rogue has, that seems like it shouldn't be a valid pvp tactic.

I mean... i guess it's a valid pvp tactic if the rogues wants to end up dead.


Also what do you mean by current FoK = Yogg 0 nerf? I think I missed this

Javen

initiatefailure wrote: »

EWom wrote: »

I was just in an AV where a couple rogues would just run into the battles and stand still spamming FoK. Personally with all the other PVP tools a rogue has, that seems like it shouldn't be a valid pvp tactic.

I mean... i guess it's a valid pvp tactic if the rogues wants to end up dead.


Also what do you mean by current FoK = Yogg 0 nerf? I think I missed this

All viable yogg 0 strategies involve a rogue FOKing his little heart out for both ape damage to keep guardian damage low as well as imp throwing to interrupt life drains. The fan of knives change nerfs both.

forty

I believe it's also done to get wound poison on the guardians to reduce the healing they get from the Yogg buff. Of course that will still be viable post-patch.

KafkaAU

So i was fairly against rogues getting axes, but I picked up blood fury from Jarraxus on wednesday night.

That axe looks HAWT.

Can't wait for a mainhand now

Alchemist449

Hey, as a newly 80 rogue what stats should I gem for?

Nocturne

Yeah I would rather have just the talent/interrupt change for FoK to nerf it in PvP.

But at the same time, a rogue's main focus has always been single-target damage, so it's not a huge deal to me. I'm glad that they gave us an AoE in the first place, and it is pretty damn powerful as it is now.

And like others have said, who really cares about trash?

Kid Presentable

Alchemist449 wrote: »

Hey, as a newly 80 rogue what stats should I gem for?

If you're a Mutilate Rogue, I believe your first order of business should be to get to the Expertise cap. I think the number you need, when looking at your character sheet, is 26/26, which is like... 215ish rating? And then you want 250ish Hit rating for your poisons to not miss. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong these days, as I've been on a bit of a hiatus.

No idea about Combat!

Senshi

Hit cap for poisons is 315 if you're not in a group with a Draenei--and only if you're specced 5/5 Precision, which is in the Combat tree (every major build uses it, as far as I know).

Expertise cap is like 25/25 or something, I forget.

Basically what you want to gem for is +hit and agility. Maybe some stam for survivability. Later on, when you get enough hit from only gear, I guess you'll be wanting haste and crit.

Javen

Senshi wrote: »

Hit cap for poisons is 315 if you're not in a group with a Draenei--and only if you're specced 5/5 Precision, which is in the Combat tree (every major build uses it, as far as I know).

Expertise cap is like 25/25 or something, I forget.

Basically what you want to gem for is +hit and agility. Maybe some stam for survivability. Later on, when you get enough hit from only gear, I guess you'll be wanting haste and crit.

ArPen is worth way more than haste to rogues. Also Attack power is more important than anything after you're hit/expertise capped.

Alchemist449

Ok, thanks guys.

Javen

So how about that change to master poisoner

So much for having for watching the timer like a hawk to squeeze out that last tick of deadly poison. And I guess they're upping envenom damage again?

Senshi

Wait, what change to Master Poisoner? Envenom's getting buffed?

where are you reading this

Edit: oh, I found it.

PTR wrote:

Rogues
- Envenom's scaling has been increased from 7% to 9% of attack power per combo point.
- Fan of Knives: The damage done by this ability has been reduced by 30%.

Talents
Assassination
- Master Poisoner: Now also provides a 33/66/100% chance of preventing Envenom from consuming Deadly Poison.
Combat
- Throwing Specialization: This talent no longer causes Fan of Knives to interrupt spellcasting.
Subtlety
- Honor Among Thieves: A 1-second cooldown is now enforced on how often a rogue can gain combo points from his party via this talent.

Damn, that looks excellent.

Javen

3.2.2 build. Master Poisoner is getting an additional effect where Envenom doesn't consume Deadly Poison.

The Envenom change is hearsay but apparently it gets a 9% of ATP bonus to damage per combo point, instead of the previous 7.

Senshi

Also, while we're on the topic of Assassination--I recently got dual spec on my rogue and was toying around with the calculator. Cookie-cutter Mutilation is 51/13/7, 3/5 Close Quarters Combat.

I was thinking about 54/10/7, where I move the points from CQC to Master Poisoner (which now is very attractive given the recent omgwtfbuff to it). You're getting the same percentage of crit (assuming the target is poisoned, but Master Poisoner pretty much guarantees a poison within the first two seconds of an encounter), but with a whole lot more added utility of the talent. With luck, you should have Deadly on the mob almost instantly, so for practical purposes we could say that whatever opening move you use will have less chance to crit. In a long fight, I'm thinking the impact of this on DPS is miniscule.

Really, the change just reaffirms my belief that weapon mastery is unnecessary for Mutilate if you consider the options. Master Poisoner is a must-have at this point.

Pretty much this.

Metacortex

You would be losing crit if you raid with someone else who also gives the 3% crit debuff. Keep that in mind. Also, if you're not raiding with someone who gives the crit debuff, you should already have Master Poisoner.

I've always had Master Poisoner over Turn the Tables. In the end, 6% crit on mutilate seems less stellar than 3% crit for everything, in addition to giving 3% crit to everyone else.

GPIA7R

Been a while since I've played, so help me out a bit here.

I typically level with an Assassination build that I threw together... I'll be hitting 80 tonight. What's the typical stat rundown for an Assassination Rogue? Should I sacrifice AP for Crit in most cases?

Well, typically in PvE questing I lead with ambush for about 3k damage, then Mutilate (puts me at 5 combo points), then Eviscerate and Mutilate. The Eviscerate typically kills them, making most mobs into a 2-3 hit kill.

Back when I played previously, I was told to put Wound Poison on mainhand, and instant poison on the offhand. Is this still true? I noticed there's a talent in Assassination that raises the instant poison chance by 50%, which is nice... and when combined with deadly brew (or whichever talent that puts crippling poison on, which makes Mutilate work better), Instant/Instant poison might be better?

I'm Serephim on Shadow Council, if you'd like to see my current build and berate me for what I'm doing wrong on talents and gear :3

Metacortex

If you're soloing I would just use either wound/wound or instant/wound. Stuff will die to fast for deadly to help much.

In a party/raid, you want instant main hand, deadly off-hand. Envenom will be your finisher. Deadly Brew is a pvp talent more than anything, so I wouldn't include it in a pve build.

As far as stats, you'll first want to make sure that you're hit capped for yellow attacks. Meaning you need 8% increased chance to hit, 5% of which you can get through Precision. AP will generaly be better than crit, but luckily most rogue gear comes with both, so you won't have to choose. If it's a choice of gems, you generally want to gem for AP. Or agility down the line.

forty

Metacortex wrote: »

You would be losing crit if you raid with someone else who also gives the 3% crit debuff. Keep that in mind.

Yep, and also keep in mind the 3% crit debuff is one of the most common raid buffs.

Senshi

fuck. the build looks so delicious, especially with the envenom stuff.

GPIA7R

So once I'm 80 and do a little redistribution...

For Groups and Raids, does Envenom completely replace Eviscerate? Does Mutilate replace backstab?

forty

Yes to both. The only time you would Eviscerate instead of Envenom is if you didn't have a DP stack on the target, which generally isn't a problem.

Halfmex

Or if you are fighting a poison-immune mob (which, thankfully, are few and far between).

KafkaAU

Only poison immune mobs I find these days are air elementals.

And even then the air elemental bosses are specifically NOT immune so as not to nerf mutilate.

KafkaAU

GPIA7R wrote: »

Been a while since I've played, so help me out a bit here.

I typically level with an Assassination build that I threw together... I'll be hitting 80 tonight. What's the typical stat rundown for an Assassination Rogue? Should I sacrifice AP for Crit in most cases?

Hit rating until you hit the caps (9% for melee, 17% for poisons)

Expertise until you hit the caps (26 expertise skill)

Then agil.

Well, typically in PvE questing I lead with ambush for about 3k damage, then Mutilate (puts me at 5 combo points), then Eviscerate and Mutilate. The Eviscerate typically kills them, making most mobs into a 2-3 hit kill.

I'd open with cheap shot, 4 seconds of stun means you will kill them before they can hit you. Most mobs for me go cheapshot, mutilate, evis, and maybe another mutilate.

Back when I played previously, I was told to put Wound Poison on mainhand, and instant poison on the offhand. Is this still true? I noticed there's a talent in Assassination that raises the instant poison chance by 50%, which is nice... and when combined with deadly brew (or whichever talent that puts crippling poison on, which makes Mutilate work better), Instant/Instant poison might be better?

You won't want the deadly brew talent in a PvE spec, so stick with instant MH/wound OH.

forty

Gem agi, not AP?

format

combat rogues gem ap while mut gems agi? right?

Javen

format wrote: »

combat rogues gem ap while mut gems agi? right?

Strike that, reverse it

Metacortex

Eh, they're pretty much equivalent. I've started to lean more toward agi as more crits = more energy regen = more stable cycle.

format

i honestly haven't seen a mut rogue in any raids since i was first clearing naxx.

Metacortex

That's a shame, because we are awesome.

Javen

I always tend to eek out more damage as Assassination than I do combat. Combat's a little too reliant on Sinister Strike crits to keep any kind of steady, controllable, consistent rotation.

forty

My thought process was that 100% of your damage scales with AP, while not all of it scales with the melee crit agi gives you, but I have no idea what the number crunchers say. I'd imagine they're close enough that it doesn't really matter.

Metacortex

The best part of Assassination is not having to spam the shit out of your main attack.

Javen

forty wrote: »

My thought process was that 100% of your damage scales with AP, while not all of it scales with the melee crit agi gives you, but I have no idea what the number crunchers say. I'd imagine they're close enough that it doesn't really matter.

Well crit is good for other things, like focused attacks and that talent I can't remember that gives you an extra combo point on combo builder criticals. So while it might not scale to the numbers as well as AP, it has valuable uses in and of itself.

forty

Right, although the agi->crit rate is pretty low. I still just thought AP was generally better for overall damage scaling than agi, at least for some specs. On the plus side, this should be irrelevant in a little over a year!