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[WoW] Rogues - Or how I stopped worrying and learned to facestab

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Posts

  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So with axes being able to be used by rogues nowadays, are they really finding a place?

    工事中
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm dual wielding raging deathbringer/blood fury, so yes.

    There's no swords in TotC that I have seen, and viskag is subpar to the deathbringer from ony IMO due to the speed.

    The deathbringer looks shit tho, blood fury looks great though.

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    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Ok. I finally picked up the heirloom chest to go with the shoulders I bought a while ago so I've been vaguely playing my rogue. Currently mutilate, but I might dual spec at 80 for combat/mut so I can play around with things. How important is expertise for us nowadays? Does it go hit > exp > agi > AP?

    工事中
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    As mutilate I found expertise pretty important as its a PITA when you hit a finisher and it gets dodged, as combat not so much due to surprise attacks.

    I'd rate the stats in this order:

    Mutilate:
    Hit (if below soft caps)
    Expertise (unless capped)
    AP
    Agil


    Combat:
    Hit (if below soft caps)
    Agil/ArP (ArP only if you can get 700-800 rating)
    AP
    Expertise

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    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Cokebotle wrote: »
    So with axes being able to be used by rogues nowadays, are they really finding a place?

    I am axes because they are gaudy as hell and I love it. They're as large as my whole character

    ByalIX8.png
  • ReignerReigner Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    After finally getting myself geared to a stable place, I got to run Koralon last night and our guild's only other Rogue (and my irl friend for that matter) finally decided to show up.

    He's geared considerably better than me in his Triumph gear, 25-man Naxx/10man Uld gear, and me in my level 200-219 Epics. But I was happy as shit to see that I was sometimes edging him out on the DPS meters and when I wasn't I was giving him a solid run for his money. (both of us in the 3k-3.4k range every attempt).

    So when I do finally catch up to him in gear I'll hopefully blow him out of the water. Maybe it will finally be enough to convince him that Combat Daggers is a trash spec that's doing nothing but waste his potential.

    3DS FriendCode. Pokemon me: 0645-5757-1012
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So I've specced back to Combat, for serious this time. What do I do?

    I know the general rotation, I'm just not sure what I should be building to with all my finishers. Someone linked me to a rotation macro that had SSx3 > SnD > SSx3 > Rupture > SSx3 > Eviscerate or Expose armor, depending on raid comp. Is that the norm? Or should I just be building to 3 combo points for SnD, 5 for Rupture et cetera?

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  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    For bosses, I pop AR and SSx4-5 then EA (if tank is not a Warrior, otherwise Rupture), then SSx4-5, SnD, SSx4-5 and check Rupture/EA/SnD, refresh if any of them have/are about to drop, otherwise Eviscerate.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    That seems awfully excessive considering Sinister Strike can grant up to 3 combo points in a single use

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  • MetacortexMetacortex The Prettiest Zombie Coeur d'CoeursRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Do you have Seal Fate in your combat build or something?

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  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I don't seem to get many CPs on my SS's; I guess the glyph doesn't proc much for me, I don't know. When it does proc it's great, but oftentimes I get 1, 2 at best.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Metacortex wrote: »
    Do you have Seal Fate in your combat build or something?

    I'm factoring in the point you can get from ruthlessness or whatever it's called

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Halfmex wrote: »
    I don't seem to get many CPs on my SS's; I guess the glyph doesn't proc much for me, I don't know. When it does proc it's great, but oftentimes I get 1, 2 at best.

    Fully raid buffed your crit should be approaching 60 percent, so with the glyph you're looking at a 30% chance at an extra combo point for every sinister strike

    bar-cc-1.jpg
  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Javen wrote: »
    Halfmex wrote: »
    I don't seem to get many CPs on my SS's; I guess the glyph doesn't proc much for me, I don't know. When it does proc it's great, but oftentimes I get 1, 2 at best.
    Fully raid buffed your crit should be approaching 60 percent, so with the glyph you're looking at a 30% chance at an extra combo point for every sinister strike
    I'm still trying to get out of my ilevel 200 gear (making decent progress) so my crit rate isn't anything approaching that buffed, unfortunately. Also, when I do get a chance to raid, I typically only run 10 man raids with him (save for the occasional 25 VoA), so I don't often have access to a full compliment of raid buffs.

    But more often than not I'm just running heroics, so I have few if any buffs.

  • MetacortexMetacortex The Prettiest Zombie Coeur d'CoeursRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Javen wrote: »
    Metacortex wrote: »
    Do you have Seal Fate in your combat build or something?

    I'm factoring in the point you can get from ruthlessness or whatever it's called

    That's finishers though. Totally different beast.

    And it has been my experience, even with ~55% crit(character sheet), I will still get lots of streaks where the glyph just won't proc. Grumble grumble RNG.

    Edit: I guess I can see what you mean, but my brain thinks it's weird to clump that combo point in with the builders. Always just considered it to be its own entity.

    4FNao2T.png
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    After finally getting myself geared to a stable place, I got to run Koralon last night and our guild's only other Rogue (and my irl friend for that matter) finally decided to show up.

    He's geared considerably better than me in his Triumph gear, 25-man Naxx/10man Uld gear, and me in my level 200-219 Epics. But I was happy as shit to see that I was sometimes edging him out on the DPS meters and when I wasn't I was giving him a solid run for his money. (both of us in the 3k-3.4k range every attempt).

    So when I do finally catch up to him in gear I'll hopefully blow him out of the water. Maybe it will finally be enough to convince him that Combat Daggers is a trash spec that's doing nothing but waste his potential.

    3.5k in T9 gear? WTF? On Koralon I do 5k on 10 man. I've found you generally can't convince people that have an idea in their head. Once you start beating him he will just be "oh you have better gear than me now"
    So I've specced back to Combat, for serious this time. What do I do?

    The glyph proc is extremely fucking streaky. My rotation is 4 combo point SnD, 5 combo point rupture, 5
    combo point evis. Sometimes I can get 2 evises in, sometimes I strugle to get the one.

    Basically:
    Keep SnD Up
    Keep Rupture Up
    Evis if both the above are up.

    steam_sig.png
    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Reigner wrote: »
    After finally getting myself geared to a stable place, I got to run Koralon last night and our guild's only other Rogue (and my irl friend for that matter) finally decided to show up.

    He's geared considerably better than me in his Triumph gear, 25-man Naxx/10man Uld gear, and me in my level 200-219 Epics. But I was happy as shit to see that I was sometimes edging him out on the DPS meters and when I wasn't I was giving him a solid run for his money. (both of us in the 3k-3.4k range every attempt).

    So when I do finally catch up to him in gear I'll hopefully blow him out of the water. Maybe it will finally be enough to convince him that Combat Daggers is a trash spec that's doing nothing but waste his potential.
    Ahahahahahaha combat daggers

    ahahaha

    No, but seriously. I'm assuming you're using a sensible form of weaponry, and from the sound of it, Combat? Just checking, 'cause I was pulling between 3 and 4k dps in mostly ievel 200s with the odd blue and the odd 219 in there for added flavor, albeit as Mutilate with an unenchanted Namlak's in my MH and a LPC with Mongoose on it in my OH.

    I really want The Black Knight's Rondel, hopefully it'll drop tomorrow before our alt Uld run, if not, I'll have enough Champion's Seals go get a Dagger of the Rising Moon as a holdover until I can get one (or two!)

    Two of those beasts (the Rondel) is supposed to be badass, so that's something to look forward to until I can head into ToC.

    Your guildie sounds like a bit of a scrub

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • Kevin CristKevin Crist I'll tell you my sins so you can sharpen your knivesRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    With the HaT nerf I've been trying Assassination with my 73 dood. I don't have Cut to the Chase yet, but what is the priority sequence at 80? Should I be using Shiv (instant main, deadly off) before Envenom or at all? And Envenom just replaces Evis, right?

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    Steam: Hugo X Poison| Battlenet: SkinnerSweet#1401
  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Open however, hit slice and dice.

    Mutilate to 4+ combo points rupture
    Mutilate to 4+ combo points envenom.
    Repeat step 2 until rupture drops, then goto step 1.

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    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Envenom replaces Eviscerate due to lolcritdamage, plus Poisons are massive as Assassination. I'm in the minority, but I've specced into Master Poisoner instead of Dagger/Fist specialization (CQC) because it's quite handy. Cut to the Chase is pretty much one of your most important talents. Hope for crits for 5CP finishers, because you won't be getting them any other way (well, if you get a Combo Point for a finisher, you will)

    You have to get into the mentality that four combo points are totally acceptable, and that five's a nice bonus.

    RE: how to open--some people like to Garrote due to the bleed enabling Hunger for Blood right off the bat. HfB should be up all the time. If you've got an arms warrior or a feral druid or something in the raid, you might as well open up with Ambush. Strong opener considering you're using daggers anyway, and it gives you a fair amount of combo points to start off with for the initial SnD.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • ReignerReigner Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Senshi wrote: »
    Reigner wrote: »
    After finally getting myself geared to a stable place, I got to run Koralon last night and our guild's only other Rogue (and my irl friend for that matter) finally decided to show up.

    He's geared considerably better than me in his Triumph gear, 25-man Naxx/10man Uld gear, and me in my level 200-219 Epics. But I was happy as shit to see that I was sometimes edging him out on the DPS meters and when I wasn't I was giving him a solid run for his money. (both of us in the 3k-3.4k range every attempt).

    So when I do finally catch up to him in gear I'll hopefully blow him out of the water. Maybe it will finally be enough to convince him that Combat Daggers is a trash spec that's doing nothing but waste his potential.
    Ahahahahahaha combat daggers

    ahahaha

    No, but seriously. I'm assuming you're using a sensible form of weaponry, and from the sound of it, Combat? Just checking, 'cause I was pulling between 3 and 4k dps in mostly ievel 200s with the odd blue and the odd 219 in there for added flavor, albeit as Mutilate with an unenchanted Namlak's in my MH and a LPC with Mongoose on it in my OH.

    I really want The Black Knight's Rondel, hopefully it'll drop tomorrow before our alt Uld run, if not, I'll have enough Champion's Seals go get a Dagger of the Rising Moon as a holdover until I can get one (or two!)

    Two of those beasts (the Rondel) is supposed to be badass, so that's something to look forward to until I can head into ToC.

    Your guildie sounds like a bit of a scrub

    Mutilate actually, with Direbrew's Shanker 2.0 and LPC Offhand.

    Also keeping in mind that I havent enchanted either weapon yet, dont' have Ebon Blade rep yet for the Head enchant nor do I have Hodir rep for the Shoulder enchant.

    Point is, I'm very happy with my DPS placement considering my gear compared to the rest of the guild (had leveled a DK as my new main but now bringing my Rogue back up to snuff)

    3DS FriendCode. Pokemon me: 0645-5757-1012
  • JesuitsJesuits Registered User
    edited October 2009
    So is Shiv useful to any spec in any situation at all? Doesn't seem like it, but my rogue is only 70.

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  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    If it is, I don't know of any. It had its uses in PvP for quick applications of Crip Poison back in the day (as well as the EJ-introduced Shiv-spec PvE build that was quickly nerfed), but now, not so much. It's yet another ability in our arsenal that the devs aren't really sure what to do with.

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited October 2009
    the Shanker 2.0 is pretty amazing for Mut, although I'm surprised you aren't doing more DPS with that setup. My gear is comparitively crap, and right now I think I'm actually below the hitcap by a fair amount--don't think Mongoose alone is as good as all that.

    Must be my group buffs versus yours.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • ReignerReigner Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Well, check out my Armory (Reigner on Gilneas) And let me know what I'm missing.

    I usually hit about 3.4K on bosses for DPS, sometimes slightly lower.

    If it's rotation issues I'd love to her them too.

    Mut x3/4 SnD, (Mut x3/4 Rupture, Mut x3/4 Envenom, repeat til end of time). Keeping HFB up all the while.

    My 10-man guild group on a good day has two pallies, and maybe a druid, and a resto Shaman. So I do tend to miss out on Windfury, sometimes GotW, and sometimes only 1 pally buff.

    3DS FriendCode. Pokemon me: 0645-5757-1012
  • MetacortexMetacortex The Prettiest Zombie Coeur d'CoeursRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Are you saying that you mutilate 3-4 times or you mutilate to 3-4 combo points? Either way it's wrong.

    You use finishers at 4 or 5 combo points, with the only general exception being the opening Slice and Dice. To get 4-5 combo points you will never need to multilate more than twice.

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  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    1: start up SnD and HfB however.
    2: mutilate to 4+ rupture
    3: mutilate to 4+ envenom (about 80% of the time you can get two 4+ envenoms in per rupture)
    4: go to step 2

    if you're at 3 CP, mutilate again to 5. 3 CP finishers = boo.

    keep HfB up always.
    you want to maximize the amount of time you have the envenom buff b/c instant poison is the whip.
    and if you're feeling really fancy and have two good offhand daggers, weapon swap in another offhand with instant poison on it while you have the envenom buff. This is tricky b/c it cycles a 1s GCD, and you can leave this weapon on until you have 3/4 seconds left on your DP stacks.

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  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Was pulling between 4 and 5k in Uld tonight. It's funny, because I was beating the other rogue who is much better geared. He's Combat with Aledar's Battlestar and Webbed Death, both with zerking. Must've been pissing him off because I out-dps him when I play my Shammy, too.

    Good times.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Word is that Mutilate is starting to outpace Combat with 3.2.2. I can understand that; I've seen some Mut rogues do some pretty amazing DPS lately. Still not enough to overcome my hatred of HfB, though. At least not yet.

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited October 2009
    It's not so bad once you remember that you don't have to spam it.

    It's still a retarded mechanic but the rest of assassination is so awesome that I can't help but think that it's all worth it.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • PoketpixiePoketpixie Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I love mutilate(no positional requirement = yay!) but I can't stand HfB. I've been trying to work out some sort of backstab build as an alternative but it doesn't seem viable. I can get all the talents to make BS hit harder but then combo point generation is anemic. If I dip too far into subtlety to get the energy reduction talent and combo points then I lose all the BS buffing talents. Meh.

  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Yeah, Backstab is pretty garbage these days. It's just another 'whuh?' ability in our list. It's largely to do with the fact that the devs don't like the Combat Daggers build. If they made Backstab viable, boop, Combat Daggers is viable again and Mutilate has dagger competition, so there's more that they have to balance.

  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Mutilate is definately outpacing Combat. I would spec it if I didn't need to provide the 4% physical damage buff.

    Due to the recent buff of envenom, once you get sufficient T9 gear (i.e. no T8 4 piece set bonus), you even drop rupture completely and just mutilate and envenom spam.
    I'm in the minority, but I've specced into Master Poisoner instead of Dagger/Fist specialization (CQC) because it's quite handy

    Since the change to master poisoner allowing envenom to not burn deadly poison stacks everyone wants to put points in master poisoner. And CQC is better than Turn the Tables. 6% crit bonus on mutilate or 3% crit bonus to all attacks, ill take all attacks at 3% thanks.

    steam_sig.png
    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited October 2009
    You drop Rupture completely? What about the t9 (2) set? A 15-energy Mutilate sounds dandy to me, and what if there aren't any other bleeds on the mob? What happens to HfB then?

    Dunno, doesn't seem like Rupture'll be going anywhere soon.

    I'm gonna look into skipping Turn the Tables in favor of CQC, though.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KafkaAU wrote: »
    Mutilate is definately outpacing Combat. I would spec it if I didn't need to provide the 4% physical damage buff.

    Due to the recent buff of envenom, once you get sufficient T9 gear (i.e. no T8 4 piece set bonus), you even drop rupture completely and just mutilate and envenom spam.
    I'm in the minority, but I've specced into Master Poisoner instead of Dagger/Fist specialization (CQC) because it's quite handy

    Since the change to master poisoner allowing envenom to not burn deadly poison stacks everyone wants to put points in master poisoner. And CQC is better than Turn the Tables. 6% crit bonus on mutilate or 3% crit bonus to all attacks, ill take all attacks at 3% thanks.

    Wait seriously? About the rupture thing.

    That seems like a lot of damage to give up, especially if you have the 30% bleed damage from Mangle or wahtever the warrior thing is called. Also the 2 piece T9.

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  • KafkaAUKafkaAU Western AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    2 piece T9 is bullshit. It procs maybe once or twice a boss fight, they need to reduce the amount of energy and increase the proc rate or something.

    I hadn't really considered the no bleeds thing, we have a feral druid and a warrior around. Obviously with no bleeds, in that case yeah you would need to rupture.

    In terms of lost damage envenom hits seriously hard with the buff in 3.2.2. I haven't actually tested it myself, I don't have the gear for it, but this is just what I have been reading and inferring. I am talking like T9-245 level gear here.

    steam_sig.png
    Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Sucks to hear about the low proc rate on the T9, guess I'll spend my Triumph on other shit instead. This is fine, because T8 looks badass.

    >Signatures
    >2012
    ISHYGDDT
  • RizziRizzi Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Me.
    I seem to be having trouble getting over 1700 dps or so in heroics.
    Haaaaaalp.
    I also have a second shanker, if I want to go mutilate.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    KafkaAU wrote: »
    2 piece T9 is bullshit. It procs maybe once or twice a boss fight, they need to reduce the amount of energy and increase the proc rate or something.

    I hadn't really considered the no bleeds thing, we have a feral druid and a warrior around. Obviously with no bleeds, in that case yeah you would need to rupture.

    In terms of lost damage envenom hits seriously hard with the buff in 3.2.2. I haven't actually tested it myself, I don't have the gear for it, but this is just what I have been reading and inferring. I am talking like T9-245 level gear here.

    I'm around that level of gear. About half and half 232/245 stuff. I'll have to try it and compare

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  • HalfmexHalfmex Matter of fact... I didn't even give you my coat!Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Rizzi wrote: »
    Me.
    I seem to be having trouble getting over 1700 dps or so in heroics.
    Haaaaaalp.
    I also have a second shanker, if I want to go mutilate.
    With Combat you're gonna want a fast offhand. Grab a Librarian's Paper Cutter until you can get a fast OH epic dagger (good luck, still waiting on a better one myself). That should help out quite a bit. Also, make sure you're using poisons on both weapons (Wounding for MH, Deadly for OH). Other than that your gear looks fine; higher DPS will come with better upgrades which should come from badges if you're running heroics and such.

This discussion has been closed.