I think more of the problem is that when the enemies are not minions you have literally no way of effectively keeping them from their goal in a long combat. They just end up running past you.
Also, the whole "invisibility" "oh and we all teleport 23 then move 10" things don't exactly help either.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Actually the invisible archons and teleporters were designed as "breachers" and that was pretty much their point. The archons that could teleport could only teleport to allies with the flame keyword and the invisible archons could be detected with perception (and did not start invisible).
Minions are too easy to stop in 4E due to automatic damage. One automatic stance and you can mow down infinite minions for no damage. Unfortunately there really isn't a good compromise, minions have no chance and if the party is too spread out then normal monsters can really motor. Minding archons are really fast monsters - their normal speed is eight and when they're rushing a certain position that means they can run (with a double move) 20 squares. A zone or effect that slowed on entry would have been most useful.
At the same time the party has done very well with what resources you had available, I wouldn't actually be unhappy at all as the Forge has not been seriously threatened (there are simply not enough Archons through to breach it currently). Unless a total disaster happens in round 10 it is doubtful that they can get through in sufficient numbers with what archons are around.
Edit: The concept actually was like the following,
Fire archons could spread quickly. If a single one got through, just like a real fire it could rapidly spread and it could lead to a cascade of further archons getting through. Making them a priority threat. Flame archons rarely engage the party unless required or tactically advantageous. Volcanic dragons supported by firebombing positions and basically making walls of fire with fissue and lava vent.
Ice Archons were more sneaky - you wouldn't always see them until it was too late. They could sneak past and set up zones to knock enemies down to get considerable distance ahead. Blizzard dragons were to be used to breach entrenched positions: Sending defenders out of position so they couldn't blockade.
Iron Archons had no interest in the forge: They were there to slay PCs and any other defender. The incredibly shitty rolling meant that how dangerous they actually are was never apparent.
In some ways I wish I had kept to the original design instead of getting a bit too excited about the above. What I should have done is stuck with just using the fire archons, oil archons and iron archons (with backup dancer Volcanic Dragons - I actually "interprted" the stats of Earthquake and Blizzard dragons from information I have on them elsewhere). That was more minion based and I wonder how it would have gone.
Edit2: I have decided to "clean" the map entirely though, so it will be a fresh map next week. Everything is in the same position as it currently is.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
New Houserule Time! After eventual discussion this is the way all solo monsters generally will function in my games.
Solo Resilience
Problem: Save ends effects are balanced against a solo needing to challenge five players by having a large bonus, but until end of next turn effects ignore any such balancing and increasing the worth of such powers over save ends effects - denying disproportionately more actions than the power mostly would against five creatures. It becomes paradoxically better to miss with a daily power that stuns until the end of your next turn as opposed to one that is save ends.
Solution: Solo monsters in paragon and epic tier can make a save against daze and stun effects at the beginning of their turn that normally last until the end of another creatures turn at their normal bonus. If successful they shrug off the condition and can take their turn as normal. Epic solos can also make saves against the dominate and unconscious conditions in addition. Heroic tier solos are unaffected by this ruling and function normally - they require no specific defenses.
Save ends powers are saved as normal or as written (some monsters can save when the effect is applied for example). Monsters that are affected by these conditions differently than normal, such as a Hydra follow the specific rules in their power and ignore this rule.
Effect: Until end of next turn powers lose their effectiveness against solo monsters as they are unlikely to always affect a solo monster on its turn (as opposed to being a guaranteed effect). At the same time due to the save occurring at the start of the creatures turn it provides stronger value to powers that are save ends. A save ends power for example will prevent a solo from taking actions on their turn (other powers aside) until they can make a save at the end, with the chance of continuing its effect for multiple rounds. An effect that lasts until the end of a creatures next turn is less likely to deny a turn entirely to a solo monster - reducing its effectiveness appropriately compared to save ends powers.
Note: This rule is experimental and I am merely curious as to how it will function. I am not wanting blanket immunities to daze and stun - what I really want is to make "until end of next turn" effects less valuable than (save ends) effects. Noting that if they fail the save they are affected as normal, but now it's not guaranteed and front loading the save means that it won't always work while a save ends effect will always at least deny the creature its turn. This means missing with a daily stuns until end of next turn power isn't going to produce a better result than hitting with it and stunning (save ends).
Edit: As a strict note though, the remaining solos in SoH either have mechanics or a power that basically functions like the above anyway. So this rule doesn't actually affect anything remaining in SoH to begin with, it's really here just for completeness sake and nothing else.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Loot!
5450000 GP
Swift Step Boots
Bahamuts Golden Canary (I changed this to a Daily * Summoning item, so it's not so ridiculously terribad) - Woundrous Item.
Ring of the Phoenix
You can make items "before" you've gone to the Sacrifice as well.
Edit:
Solo Resilience
Problem: Save ends effects are balanced against a solo needing to challenge five players by having a large bonus, but until end of next turn effects ignore any such balancing and increasing the worth of such powers over save ends effects - denying disproportionately more actions than the power mostly would against five creatures. It becomes paradoxically better to miss with a daily power that stuns until the end of your next turn as opposed to one that is save ends.
Solution: Solo monsters in paragon and epic tier can make a save against daze and stun effects at the end of their turn that normally last until the end of another creatures turn at their normal bonus. If successful they shrug off the condition and can take their turn as normal. Epic solos can also make saves against the dominate and unconscious conditions in addition. Heroic tier solos are unaffected by this ruling and function normally - they require no specific defenses.
Save ends powers are saved as normal or as written (some monsters can save when the effect is applied for example). Monsters that are affected by these conditions differently than normal, such as a Hydra follow the specific rules in their power and ignore this rule.
Effect: I thought about things and felt the change was too unfair to controller classes - compromising their ability to control a solo too much. Especially the indirect nerfs to more reasonable daily and encounter powers that would be made too ineffectual. As a result I changed the ruling to the end of the turn, just like a regular saving throw.
Note: This rule is experimental and I am merely curious as to how it will function. I am not wanting blanket immunities to daze and stun - what I really want is to make "until end of next turn" effects less valuable than (save ends) effects. I am interested to see the effect of this.
I require 340k more gold for my Opal Ring of Remembrance, I can then donate a Ring of Guarded Will.
I want none of the items we got today.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
I have changed my mind. As you were all mean to my magical items and didn't want my Ring of Elemental Mastery I am taking it away and replacing it with the Opal Ring of Remembrance that Rysk wants.
Edit: Not sure if i should wait to get a ring of free time(resist all 5+lots of minor actions), or Nullifying ring. Or get a Ring of Shadow(concealment) or a ring of Khirad(see invisible) now
Edit: If i don't buy anything i have 1.7m to loan
Goumindong on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Edit: Not sure if i should wait to get a ring of free time(resist all 5+lots of minor actions), or Nullifying ring. Or get a Ring of Shadow(concealment) or a ring of Khirad(see invisible) now
Edit: If i don't buy anything i have 1.7m to loan
Obviously you should get a mummified hand and Gloves of many fingers, then get all of those rings.
Then again Gauntlets of destruciton might be more useful than ring of khirad so it's a toss up, but there are surprisingly few good hand slot items for sorcerers, so now Antoch is wearing 4 rings at once. It's crazy.
I have a Star Opal Ring that I'm not wearing, but I'm not sure anyone would really find it useful. I may just sell it and lend out gold if anyone needs anything, but given that saphelon got what he wanted, orin isn't sure, terrendos has yet to spend his gold, that's really just lain now that I tihnk about it.
Obviously you should get a mummified hand and Gloves of many fingers, then get all of those rings.
Then again Gauntlets of destruction might be more useful than ring of khirad so it's a toss up.
Well, a mummified hand/glove of many fingers is more expense that I don't have. I have a free ring slot however, and already have gauntlets of destruction.(which is handy because my axe is 2d6).
A many fingered glove would be awesome, but then i would be short any ring at all without a loan and would still need another 1.6m to even get another ring i wanted.
Altneratley there are some nice boots around that i could use if you didn't sell that star opal ring.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
The Vorpal axe I can definitely do for you and if that is what you want it is very easy to justify that (Hellsong can evolve into... REALLY SHARP HELLSONG!!!!). Unless you'd like a new axe - that can also be arranged if you feel like it.
You should be able to afford both the other items you want easily by the end of level 29.
Um... you're giving me back the 0.7 megagold? And in exchange Verax continues to heal you?
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Unfortunately while attempting to count the megagold Verax trips up and it falls over the side of the ship. He secretly hopes it falls on some unsuspecting demons on Celestia below.
Sorry about the eleventh-hour-ness of this, but I can't come today. I thought my family was arriving later this afternoon, but it turns out they'll be here in about half an hour. And knowing my family, they'll be here most of the day.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Here let me make terrendos feel a little better about his eleventh hour rain check. One of best friends called me out of the blue last night at about 11pm "Hey I'm in town for a bit. Let's get some beers." So of course I did that and then spent most of the afternoon sleeping. I'm an arse.
So you're saying Verax can't resurrect anyone after the final battle?
WTX?
Orcus will have assumed complete command of the portfolio of Death by the end of the campaign. Given he really hates you a lot, none of your souls are coming back if you die by that point (you will know exactly when this is when it happens too).
He isn't quite there yet, he still hasn't got full control over everything and so generally things are working as they should. I was planning to do more with Orcus, but I want to resolve the main plot threads of the game rather than something more tangential. In the end I'm wanting to move onto Mark and War and something new sooner rather than delay things out further. If I do return to FR though, Orcus being the god of death is going to be a very interesting aspect.
Edit: Not to mention I'm 100% sure one of you will end up with Mykruls sword (from way back in paragon tier) and that also leaves lots of plot threads. Given that means that we have Orcus as the god of death and the former god (who'd really like that portfolio back) wandering around in weapon form - albeit in the hands of an epic level character who Myrkul cannot take direct control of.
I think Saphelon may ask to take that for his epilogue. He will go on to stop Orcus and assume some of the portfolios of death. He will return to his hometown, having given up on finding the Simbul, he decides the best way to stop the undead is to defeat Orcus and redistribute the portfolio.
Posts
Also, the whole "invisibility" "oh and we all teleport 23 then move 10" things don't exactly help either.
Minions are too easy to stop in 4E due to automatic damage. One automatic stance and you can mow down infinite minions for no damage. Unfortunately there really isn't a good compromise, minions have no chance and if the party is too spread out then normal monsters can really motor. Minding archons are really fast monsters - their normal speed is eight and when they're rushing a certain position that means they can run (with a double move) 20 squares. A zone or effect that slowed on entry would have been most useful.
At the same time the party has done very well with what resources you had available, I wouldn't actually be unhappy at all as the Forge has not been seriously threatened (there are simply not enough Archons through to breach it currently). Unless a total disaster happens in round 10 it is doubtful that they can get through in sufficient numbers with what archons are around.
Edit: The concept actually was like the following,
Fire archons could spread quickly. If a single one got through, just like a real fire it could rapidly spread and it could lead to a cascade of further archons getting through. Making them a priority threat. Flame archons rarely engage the party unless required or tactically advantageous. Volcanic dragons supported by firebombing positions and basically making walls of fire with fissue and lava vent.
Ice Archons were more sneaky - you wouldn't always see them until it was too late. They could sneak past and set up zones to knock enemies down to get considerable distance ahead. Blizzard dragons were to be used to breach entrenched positions: Sending defenders out of position so they couldn't blockade.
Iron Archons had no interest in the forge: They were there to slay PCs and any other defender. The incredibly shitty rolling meant that how dangerous they actually are was never apparent.
In some ways I wish I had kept to the original design instead of getting a bit too excited about the above. What I should have done is stuck with just using the fire archons, oil archons and iron archons (with backup dancer Volcanic Dragons - I actually "interprted" the stats of Earthquake and Blizzard dragons from information I have on them elsewhere). That was more minion based and I wonder how it would have gone.
Edit2: I have decided to "clean" the map entirely though, so it will be a fresh map next week. Everything is in the same position as it currently is.
Problem: Save ends effects are balanced against a solo needing to challenge five players by having a large bonus, but until end of next turn effects ignore any such balancing and increasing the worth of such powers over save ends effects - denying disproportionately more actions than the power mostly would against five creatures. It becomes paradoxically better to miss with a daily power that stuns until the end of your next turn as opposed to one that is save ends.
Solution: Solo monsters in paragon and epic tier can make a save against daze and stun effects at the beginning of their turn that normally last until the end of another creatures turn at their normal bonus. If successful they shrug off the condition and can take their turn as normal. Epic solos can also make saves against the dominate and unconscious conditions in addition. Heroic tier solos are unaffected by this ruling and function normally - they require no specific defenses.
Save ends powers are saved as normal or as written (some monsters can save when the effect is applied for example). Monsters that are affected by these conditions differently than normal, such as a Hydra follow the specific rules in their power and ignore this rule.
Effect: Until end of next turn powers lose their effectiveness against solo monsters as they are unlikely to always affect a solo monster on its turn (as opposed to being a guaranteed effect). At the same time due to the save occurring at the start of the creatures turn it provides stronger value to powers that are save ends. A save ends power for example will prevent a solo from taking actions on their turn (other powers aside) until they can make a save at the end, with the chance of continuing its effect for multiple rounds. An effect that lasts until the end of a creatures next turn is less likely to deny a turn entirely to a solo monster - reducing its effectiveness appropriately compared to save ends powers.
Note: This rule is experimental and I am merely curious as to how it will function. I am not wanting blanket immunities to daze and stun - what I really want is to make "until end of next turn" effects less valuable than (save ends) effects. Noting that if they fail the save they are affected as normal, but now it's not guaranteed and front loading the save means that it won't always work while a save ends effect will always at least deny the creature its turn. This means missing with a daily stuns until end of next turn power isn't going to produce a better result than hitting with it and stunning (save ends).
Edit: As a strict note though, the remaining solos in SoH either have mechanics or a power that basically functions like the above anyway. So this rule doesn't actually affect anything remaining in SoH to begin with, it's really here just for completeness sake and nothing else.
5450000 GP
Swift Step Boots
Bahamuts Golden Canary (I changed this to a Daily * Summoning item, so it's not so ridiculously terribad) - Woundrous Item.
Ring of the Phoenix
You can make items "before" you've gone to the Sacrifice as well.
Edit:
Problem: Save ends effects are balanced against a solo needing to challenge five players by having a large bonus, but until end of next turn effects ignore any such balancing and increasing the worth of such powers over save ends effects - denying disproportionately more actions than the power mostly would against five creatures. It becomes paradoxically better to miss with a daily power that stuns until the end of your next turn as opposed to one that is save ends.
Solution: Solo monsters in paragon and epic tier can make a save against daze and stun effects at the end of their turn that normally last until the end of another creatures turn at their normal bonus. If successful they shrug off the condition and can take their turn as normal. Epic solos can also make saves against the dominate and unconscious conditions in addition. Heroic tier solos are unaffected by this ruling and function normally - they require no specific defenses.
Save ends powers are saved as normal or as written (some monsters can save when the effect is applied for example). Monsters that are affected by these conditions differently than normal, such as a Hydra follow the specific rules in their power and ignore this rule.
Effect: I thought about things and felt the change was too unfair to controller classes - compromising their ability to control a solo too much. Especially the indirect nerfs to more reasonable daily and encounter powers that would be made too ineffectual. As a result I changed the ruling to the end of the turn, just like a regular saving throw.
Note: This rule is experimental and I am merely curious as to how it will function. I am not wanting blanket immunities to daze and stun - what I really want is to make "until end of next turn" effects less valuable than (save ends) effects. I am interested to see the effect of this.
I want none of the items we got today.
MIND TAKING, THAT'S TAKING THE MIND!!! MUAHAHAHHA
Edit: Not sure if i should wait to get a ring of free time(resist all 5+lots of minor actions), or Nullifying ring. Or get a Ring of Shadow(concealment) or a ring of Khirad(see invisible) now
Edit: If i don't buy anything i have 1.7m to loan
The Pheonix Cloak was treasure that was handed out. I only listed the items that nobody took and were available for pinching.
Whoops!
Obviously you should get a mummified hand and Gloves of many fingers, then get all of those rings.
Then again Gauntlets of destruciton might be more useful than ring of khirad so it's a toss up, but there are surprisingly few good hand slot items for sorcerers, so now Antoch is wearing 4 rings at once. It's crazy.
I have a Star Opal Ring that I'm not wearing, but I'm not sure anyone would really find it useful. I may just sell it and lend out gold if anyone needs anything, but given that saphelon got what he wanted, orin isn't sure, terrendos has yet to spend his gold, that's really just lain now that I tihnk about it.
A many fingered glove would be awesome, but then i would be short any ring at all without a loan and would still need another 1.6m to even get another ring i wanted.
Altneratley there are some nice boots around that i could use if you didn't sell that star opal ring.
You should have read the fine print!
Verax worships the closest thing to a god of Law in FR. You think he wouldn't make you sign a ridiculous contract before he loaned you money?
This is what the Sacrifice looks like.
I wouldn't anticipate the ship looking like that much longer.
Eye of Awareness
Vorpal axe
These are things that lain wants.
You should be able to afford both the other items you want easily by the end of level 29.
Oh, too soon?
We are poised for a big guy fight on the boat.
WTX?
Orcus will have assumed complete command of the portfolio of Death by the end of the campaign. Given he really hates you a lot, none of your souls are coming back if you die by that point (you will know exactly when this is when it happens too).
He isn't quite there yet, he still hasn't got full control over everything and so generally things are working as they should. I was planning to do more with Orcus, but I want to resolve the main plot threads of the game rather than something more tangential. In the end I'm wanting to move onto Mark and War and something new sooner rather than delay things out further. If I do return to FR though, Orcus being the god of death is going to be a very interesting aspect.
Edit: Not to mention I'm 100% sure one of you will end up with Mykruls sword (from way back in paragon tier) and that also leaves lots of plot threads. Given that means that we have Orcus as the god of death and the former god (who'd really like that portfolio back) wandering around in weapon form - albeit in the hands of an epic level character who Myrkul cannot take direct control of.