Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[OOC - 4E DnD] Sorrow of the Heavens

14647484951

Posts

  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    That would be more than appropriate actually and give PCs of a future campaign a good "epic" level patron that can help them in their war against Orcus, which would be a pretty bleak/different feeling 4E campaign - you die it's for good!

    Plus it would make sense that Saphelon might want that weapon back out of everyone in the group.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Well, if Saphelon didn't want it, Verax would take it out of a sense of duty and sacrifice. He'd be all sad and somber when anyone met him, just sort of resigned to his Fate like he always has been, except with more depression. Even if Saphelon does take the sword, if Verax is still alive he'll be all about setting everything right once more.

    Man, this sucks. If anyone's going to die it'll be Verax (assuming the final boss is as smart as that dragon we fought earlier and realizes he needs to kill me first), and Verax would want it to be him rather than anyone else, but I don't want Verax to die. Being self-sacrificing sucks. Well, if he has to die, I want it to be something like "only by detonating a divine spark can one seal the rift and save the world. Unfortunately, detonating one's divine spark means dying" and Verax will be all "remember that a hero is only a man who knows he is free" and steps into the void or whatever. But of course it won't be that. It'll be something lame like "Hephaestus sat on him and his soul broke THE END."

    On the off chance that Verax survives, what portfolios are available? What with Verax being a Demigod, it stands to reason that he'd rise to full god status in his epilogue.

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Available portfolios will depend on you actually to an extent (dun dun dun ominous music etc).

    Also it makes sense for Saphelon to be going for the god of death, due to that being in command of Szass Tam and the other abominations in Thay (his original enemy).

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Also as a very important note: Nothing further will be changed in this game with the July 6th errata. Just ignore it and everything will work as it does now. There is literally no point with a whopping 2 levels (1 by the time it is released) to play. All errata will be adopted in Mark of War though (depending on what they change).

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Hey guys, I am going to be writing up what happens in tomorrows session for my friend after the game and probably the forum. I'd love to see if I can get through 4 encounters in 4 hours tomorrow and just see how it goes. So if we can get started on time I would really appreciate that :D

    You will be level 29 after the first or second encounter (I won't tell you precisely which one), so make sure you have your level 29 d00d awaiting!

    Remember that your ultimate goal is to stop Eve at any cost - she's in the middle of the daemonic and githyanki fleet on or possibly inside Hephaestus. You have a really really big ship though and the reason you're doing this is because it's the most likely to be able to plow through any opposition foolish enough to get in your way there. You can probably expect more assaults from archons and daemons though as you fly towards it.

    This deserves explanation though:

    The four circles on the map are the navigational circles of the Sacrifice. These let you "drive" different cores of the ship and fill them with power. Normally you'd have 4 mages for this purpose (as well as defense), but given they have been beheaded for the most part that will fall to you. You'll need a good arcana check to power the different engines on the ship and get the ship moving in that direction. The frontal circle controls the underside node, while the others all correspond to the nodes on upper part of the ship (eg, left, right and back).

    You get a distinct impression the Balor will be immensely destructive upon death - having fought a Balor in the past and remembering its immensely violent death throes. Ter-Soth seems extremely powerful and so you get a real impression that if he explodes on anything important you might permanently lose it.

    The helm is equally as important because you need to be able to steer the ship. This will take someone who is pretty strong and really knows their way around navigating the plane (perception, arcana, athletics are all desirable skills here - noting that one individual pilot doesn't have to have all these skills if someone is within ear shot).

    Edit: Destruction of the helm is a really really really really bad thing.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Just some advance notice here: I'll be there tomorrow, but I won't be able to show up next week and I'll definitely not be coming the week after. My best friend's bachelor party is next weekend and the wedding is the weekend after, so I'll be rather preoccupied.

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Just some advance notice here: I'll be there tomorrow, but I won't be able to show up next week and I'll definitely not be coming the week after. My best friend's bachelor party is next weekend and the wedding is the weekend after, so I'll be rather preoccupied.

    DRAMATIC!

    Edit: We won't be playing next weekend though because I have some other obligations that weekend, but the weekend after we will be. Verax won't be missing any essential fights hopefully because of that.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Just coming here to note that tomorrows game is really poorly timed. Ghana V USA at 2:30 EST. So probably the first 1.5 hours will be smooth

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Poor unlucky archons!

    Either way I am very impressed with the general performance of MM3 creatures as a whole. They definitely seem to fulfill their actual functions in being a noticeable challenge rather efficiently compared to previous creatures. They are pretty noticeably still maintaining a good level of challenge and requiring useage of daily powers to defeat - as opposed to doing nearly nothing. The archons got a bit unlucky though in the end, poor guys.

    Something to note is solos will always be able to save daze, dominate and stun effects at paragon and heroic regardless if they permit a save or not. They will have this in their power though and I will also add this to their save lines as well (for convenience sake). Noting that some solos don't bother doing this because they have another power, EG Elemental Barrage or Many Headed that does effectively the same thing.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Here are my final collated houserules going forward into Mark of War. If there is something you think I've missed feel free to ask:

    Also, for your convenience here is a list of my current "houserules" for commentary if you desire.
    Free actions (Problematic and subject to change!)
    Free actions at the moment will generally act like immediate reactions to whatever triggered them. Noting the normal rules for immediate actions apply - this does mean they can interrupt multiple attacks though, which is already explicitly something immediate reactions can do. I felt the need to point that clarification out. There are issues with this ruling, because some free actions are actually non-functional as working like immediate interrupts. I haven't thought of a good and clear solution to this yet. So expect this to be updated once I've read a variety of opinions and tried a few things.

    Right now a potential rule is that free actions on your own turn are immediate interrupts. For example wand of accuracy can "interrupt" the normal attack order and boost the attack roll at any point - as an immediate reaction you'll realize that wand of accuracy can't work like this. Free actions outside of your turn function like immediate reactions. They need to wait for whatever triggered them to resolve. In either case, a creatures immediate interrupt takes precedence over a free action immediate action, and an immediate reaction beats a free action. In other words, immediate actions are ALWAYS superior to a free action and will always beat their respective free action when reacting to a trigger.

    This is just a temporary rule and feedback is more than appreciated.
    Hindering Terrain, Zones and automatic damage effects and saving throws (Reiterated from above)
    Hindering Terrain, zones and other things and saves.

    So I have been thinking about this for some time now, as it comes up from time to time and I've decided to change my ruling on how terrain, zones and similar work and interact with the saving throw for hindering terrain. After a lot of thought, this is how such things will work in my games from now onwards (This applies to both monsters and PCs - noting that lethal terrain rules are different for PCs than monsters. PCs if they would be killed automatically by say a ridiculous fall of 800+ feet or a black hole of doom terrain feature, get 3 saves - exactly like death saving throws and not a "save or die", which is stupid and not fun for PCs).
    When do you get a saving throw?

    You get a saving throw any time forced movement would send you into terrain, hazardous zones, traps or similar effects that cause automatic damage or status effects. For example, if you are pushed into a Wall of Fire, you get a saving throw to fall prone at the edge of the Wall before being pushed into it. This is because the wall of fire does automatic damage on the forced movement, so will count as hindering terrain despite being a power. A giant pit will count as well and this is similar for any situation where you are falling off a ledge.

    You get multiple saving throws as well for every time you are moved in and out of a dangerous terrain feature, trap or zone. For example you are slid 10 squares into a wall of fire, you fail your save and are slid in to take damage. The power slides you out of the zone and then back in, you get a second save to avoid being forced into the terrain again. As soon as you save you are knocked prone at the edge of the hazard and you cannot be moved any further.

    Another example, you are slid into a pool of acid that inflicts 1d8+8 acid damage (I'm making this up off the top of my head btw) on entering a square. You get a save. If you fail and are slid into a second square, if that ALSO inflicts damage you get another save and so on until you save. If you make a save you fall prone in the acid (which isn't probably the best resolution) and go no further. This is an example where every square of movement in the terrain does damage - you get a save for every square of movement that would inflict damage. Noting that if you are pushed 12 into a zone/terrain feature that doesn't do more damage for every square you move if you fail the initial save you can be moved where-ever the creature that did it wants.
    Examples

    A pit trap that has been exposed and is now a 10 foot deep pit. You get a save before falling in.

    A ledge with a long fall.

    A wall of fire after the wall has been created (As it inflicts damage when you enter it).

    A zone that inflicts automatic damage when you enter the zone.

    A river of lava.

    Falling into a lake of acid.

    Essentially: Will this inflict automatic damage or damage without an attack roll when you enter it? Then it counts as hindering terrain and you get a saving throw.
    When don't you get a saving throw?

    Monster auras are specifically excluded from this, as well as powers that make a conjuration such as a Flaming sphere (the damage is inflicted on your turn). In the case of a monsters Aura, it never grants a saving throw and in the case of powers, if they do not inflict damage at the time your movement is forced you don't get a saving throw. For example the hidden pit trap above before it is triggered doesn't grant a saving throw, because when the trap is triggered the attack against your reflex is the saving throw. Any trap, zone or terrain that requires an attack roll when you enter it does not grant a saving throw - your "saving throw" is the attack against whatever defense it is attacking. This means you cannot save when being pushed into a zone like grease, that makes an attack against your defense but you will get a saving throw when pushed into a trap/zone that does automatic damage when you are forced into it (Like an exposed pit trap's falling damage or a Wall of Fire).
    Examples

    A hidden pit trap that will make an attack against your defense upon entering - but after it is exposed see above.

    A trap with a non-damaging trigger (like a pressure plate or similar - unless the traps activation would inflict automatic damage and you were aware of the trap).

    A zone that inflicts automatic damage at the beginning of your turn, but not when you are pushed into it. Similarly, you get no save if you are pushed into the zone or terrain and it has to attack you for its effect.

    Terrain, zones and powers that do not inflict damage when you enter them. This never grants a saving throw, so if a zone would damage you at the beginning of your turn it won't grant a save. The ruling here is meant to deal with stacking large amounts of automatic unpreventable damage with forced movement, for example a shift 12 power that lets you move a monster (Or PC for that matter) through a Wall of fire multiple times stacking up huge amounts of automatic damage. Or pushing something into and out of a zone multiple times that does damage for every square of movement the creature is pushed/slid/pulled through. Similarly for a terrain features that deal damage on entry like a puddle of acid, brimstone hail and a howling wind (all examples from my two current games).

    Auras - Special example as a monsters aura never concedes a saving throw. It's an exception.
    Summary

    Do I get a saving throw?

    A) Does it inflict automatic damage without an attack roll on entry or being moved next to it?

    B) Is it a terrain feature, a zone, a conjuration or a trap?

    If both are yes, then the answer is yes.
    Lethal Terrain
    Purpose: This is a new terrain type I've made for 4E. It's definition is any terrain that would instantly kill or remove a creature from combat straight away. It actually doesn't affect monsters beyond solos, but it primarily affects PCs. An example of lethal terrain would be an obscenely high drop - EG thousands of feet. This either outright kills a PC or removes them from the fight entirely - neither is very fun!

    Effect: PCs and solo monsters - but nobody else unless specified - always have three saving throws before being affected by "lethal" terrain. The example of the drop indicates first a failure to catch yourself before falling, then you end up just "hanging" off the edge. You can take no other actions while in this state except a saving throw. Unlike death saving throws, any successful save means you climb back up, crawl out of whatever it was you were caught in or similar. If you fail three saving throws you're affected by whatever the lethal terrain is and horribly mangled/fall to your doom whatever.

    Solo monsters also get the same protection if this is ever actually required (probably rarely).
    Levels and Extended Rests
    Basically when you level up you automatically get the benefit of an extended rest with it (though this sets any gained action points to 1). This is to keep on adventuring through those long dungeons, even if it seems a bit video gamish.
    Solo Resilience (Final wording of the rule for future campaigns)
    Problem: Save ends effects are balanced against a solo needing to challenge five players by having a large bonus, but until end of next turn effects ignore any such balancing and increasing the worth of such powers over save ends effects - denying disproportionately more actions than the power mostly would against five creatures. It becomes paradoxically better to miss with a daily power that stuns until the end of your next turn as opposed to one that is save ends.

    Solution: Solo monsters can always save against the daze, dominate, stun and unconscious conditions from paragon tier onwards - even if these effects do not normally permit a save. Certain solos with the deity, primordial, god or similar keywords, demonlords like Orcus and archdevils like Graz'zt may save against all effects imposed on them (as Draconomicon specifies). These monsters will always have a specific power that indicates their saving conditions.

    Save ends powers are saved as normal or as written (some monsters can save when the effect is applied for example). Monsters that are affected by these conditions differently than normal, such as a Hydra follow the specific rules in their power and ignore this rule. This rule proved to be very effective and worked out extremely well with the Balor in SoH, which was a solo brute that was the same level as the party! As such I'm very happy with it. Note that all monsters will have a power that explains why they get a save against these effects (Draconic Majesty for Dragons and such). Also this rule does *not* affect heroic tier solos as I view them in a good balanced position. It's only paragon and upwards the rule applies and only creatures 30th level and only will benefit from the deity/primordial ruling. Noting that solos over level 30 do not automatically count as deities, only if I feel it will be appropriate.
    Swallow (New Condition)
    Swallow and monsters. This is a new condition that I use in my games and describes all swallow based mechanics. This is because I was playtesting my encounters, with some creatures that swallow I found the mechanics weren't consistent enough making it overly confusing. Swallow is now defined like any other condition and this is the basics of how all swallow based mechanics work (I will rewrite monsters to fit this - with some exceptions like Astral Dreadnoughts):

    Swallow
    You're restrained
    You only have line of sight and line of effect to the creature that swallowed you.
    No creature has line of sight or line of effect to you while you are swallowed.
    A creature with a swallowed target does not need to make a strength check to move with the target and moves at normal speed.
    You cannot mark targets while swallowed or be marked. Marks end immediately.
    A creature that cannot make opportunity attacks automatically regurgitates a swallowed target and cannot swallow another.

    Swallowing can deal damage and other effects as well depending on the monster.

    Purpose:
    Standardizing the "Swallow" mechanic used by several monsters so that I don't need a million lines of text. Swallow is a condition, so if a monster says "and you are swallowed" it means everything as written above. Other effects are described on an effect line "Effect while swallowed". This is to save space and make it clear what conditions and effects are being imposed on you. Restrained was common on all swallow mechanics and makes sense IMO, so all swallowing creatures do so. The line of effect/sight rules are for obvious logic, but bear in mind the second part of that means you can blast a creature with a swallowed ally to pieces with burst/blast effects without harming them. Any mark ends straight away, because otherwise it just makes for some really silly rules issues and interactions. The final line is to give an alternative way of helping a character that is swallowed out without having to kill the creature. This is to prevent cheap "Eat and run" tactics that can give almost zero chance of rescuing a swallowed character otherwise.

    Anything else:
    Anything that doesn't swallow specifically or sticks you in demiplanes I'll let have its own mechanics for "uniqueness". The Astral Dreadnought for example.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I do find it hilarious they nerfed Legion's Hold. None the less we aren't adding the errata except in one case, I'm adopting the addition of the free action update. I will miss Mariliths multiply hitting PCs every round for every miss, but limiting free action attacks to once per turn has always seemed like something I should have done myself anyway. So that part of the errata will be immediately adopted. Everything else is the same, except for the cleric powers that were dropped from standard actions to minor actions - I've already added that.

    The change to magic missile was fucking hilarious.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Really Wizards? REALLY?!

    REG Rysk on
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    Really Wizards? REALLY?!

    Actually it is really far too good a power for what it does. It doesn't actually bother me that much because my encounters were already taking in large bursts into account anyway (Turn undead in this case), but I can definitely see this being a decent change.

    Remember though that unless I specifically say so, the errata isn't added. I've only added the changes to the cleric powers to make them minor actions and the free action attack interpretation.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Future houserule time for posterity: Rampage can be taken even if you have taken a free action attack.

    Purpose: Rampage is limited to 1/round, being harshly restricted by the new free action rule doesn't seem particularly reasonable given its already restricted in use. As a result, Rampage is a special exemption to the current free action limit.

    Second houserule:

    Monster and PC bloodied attack powers that are free actions.

    Purpose: Monsters and PCs with bloodied powers can still use these when bloodied, regardless if they have used a free action attack that turn or not.

    Decided to make it apply to bloodied attacks that occur on PCs. Bloodied effects are temperamental enough due to stuns, conditions and other issues. Making them generally useless is not the intention and so they get an exemption. Also, they were never a part of the recursive free action criticals and other issues this was meant to solve.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    New houserule and clarification list. These updates are more frequent as I'm trying to establish everything clearly before we begin the new campaigns. Elite resilience is a continued update to reduce the effectiveness of until end of next turn effects over save ends. Essentially, I want save ends powers to be superior to until end of next turn effects, as elites and solos will save against these in general anyway. This means if they fail that save, a save ends effect will stick around while a "until end of next turn" effect is cut short. Essentially this means elites treat all stunned conditions as save ends, while solos treat all dazed, dominated, stunned and unconscious conditions as save ends. If a monster has a power that interacts with save ends effects such as an immediate save against a condition imposed on them, then an "until end of next turn daze/dominate/stun/unconscious" is basically affected as if they were save ends effects. The purpose of the rule is to ensure that elites and solos of around the parties level are still challenging, without needing to have bazillion defenses (eg unhittable) to ensure they can take actions.
    Elite Resilience
    Paragon and epic elite monsters can make saving throws against the stunned condition that would last until the end of another creatures turn with their normal bonus to saves. This makes elites partially consistent with the mechanics of solo monsters. Like with solo resilience, this ruling doesn't affect elites in heroic tier as they are already fine balance wise.
    Free actions: Are they interrupts or reactions?
    Ruling: Free actions on your turn are interrupts or reactions, depending on the usage. So if you use wand of accuracy (free action to add a bonus to the attack roll) this counts as an interrupt. If you critically hit with an attack and get a free action rampage, the rampage attack resolves as an reaction. In other words, the user determines if the free action is an immediate action or a reaction in most cases. Unfortunately making a hard and fast ruling on this is strictly impossible. Note that when you get a free action attack, a creatures immediate interrupt and reactions to it will always beat your subsequent free action attack. This means the priorities are when responding with a free action: Immediate Interrupt > Immediate Reaction > Free Action.

    Outside of your turn, free actions are always resolved as reactions. Such as a monster dropping to 0 hit points and exploding, a free action attack to movement or whatever else. If you attack and miss, which triggers a creatures free action attack they do so after your attack resolves (like a half-damage miss effect that could kill them before they attacked, despite you triggering their attack by missing).

    This unfortunately isn't the best ruling in the world, because free actions have to be interpreted as reacting as interrupts and reactions. Making them "All reactions" bones things like wand of accuracy unfairly. At the same time, making them all interrupts has some undesired things, like not being able to move a creature that is about to explode away or similar. If in doubt, just ask me during the game for a ruling.
    Free action attacks (Errata clarification).
    Free action attacks granted by class features do not count towards your limit of 1/turn free action attacks. So a Warlord who gives you an extra attack as a free action through his [whatever] presence doesn't count. A barbarians free action rampage and free action swift charge are similarly exempt.

    Free action attacks from items, powers, feats and such forth are all limited to 1/turn as normal though. So you can be granted a free basic attack by a warlords presence, critically hit and make a rampage attack, drop an enemy and then swift charge.

    You could not however get a free basic attack from Increase the Tempo (which, for clarity grants you four attacks from ONE free action - you will still get all four free action attacks), critically hit and then get another free action attack from an item, a power or a feat. But again, if you get extra free action attacks as a class feature, the Barbarian being the core example here with rampage and swift charge, these attacks do not count against your limit of 1 free action attack per turn.
    Hindering Terrain, Zones and automatic damage effects and saving throws (Reiterated from above)
    Hindering Terrain, zones and other things and saves.

    So I have been thinking about this for some time now, as it comes up from time to time and I've decided to change my ruling on how terrain, zones and similar work and interact with the saving throw for hindering terrain. After a lot of thought, this is how such things will work in my games from now onwards (This applies to both monsters and PCs - noting that lethal terrain rules are different for PCs than monsters. PCs if they would be killed automatically by say a ridiculous fall of 800+ feet or a black hole of doom terrain feature, get 3 saves - exactly like death saving throws and not a "save or die", which is stupid and not fun for PCs).
    When do you get a saving throw?

    You get a saving throw any time forced movement would send you into terrain, hazardous zones, traps or similar effects that cause automatic damage or status effects. For example, if you are pushed into a Wall of Fire, you get a saving throw to fall prone at the edge of the Wall before being pushed into it. This is because the wall of fire does automatic damage on the forced movement, so will count as hindering terrain despite being a power. A giant pit will count as well and this is similar for any situation where you are falling off a ledge.

    You get multiple saving throws as well for every time you are moved in and out of a dangerous terrain feature, trap or zone. For example you are slid 10 squares into a wall of fire, you fail your save and are slid in to take damage. The power slides you out of the zone and then back in, you get a second save to avoid being forced into the terrain again. As soon as you save you are knocked prone at the edge of the hazard and you cannot be moved any further.

    Another example, you are slid into a pool of acid that inflicts 1d8+8 acid damage (I'm making this up off the top of my head btw) on entering a square. You get a save. If you fail and are slid into a second square, if that ALSO inflicts damage you get another save and so on until you save. If you make a save you fall prone in the acid (which isn't probably the best resolution) and go no further. This is an example where every square of movement in the terrain does damage - you get a save for every square of movement that would inflict damage. Noting that if you are pushed 12 into a zone/terrain feature that doesn't do more damage for every square you move if you fail the initial save you can be moved where-ever the creature that did it wants.
    Examples

    A pit trap that has been exposed and is now a 10 foot deep pit. You get a save before falling in.

    A ledge with a long fall.

    A wall of fire after the wall has been created (As it inflicts damage when you enter it).

    A zone that inflicts automatic damage when you enter the zone.

    A river of lava.

    Falling into a lake of acid.

    Essentially: Will this inflict automatic damage or damage without an attack roll when you enter it? Then it counts as hindering terrain and you get a saving throw.
    When don't you get a saving throw?

    Monster auras are specifically excluded from this, as well as powers that make a conjuration such as a Flaming sphere (the damage is inflicted on your turn). In the case of a monsters Aura, it never grants a saving throw and in the case of powers, if they do not inflict damage at the time your movement is forced you don't get a saving throw. For example the hidden pit trap above before it is triggered doesn't grant a saving throw, because when the trap is triggered the attack against your reflex is the saving throw. Any trap, zone or terrain that requires an attack roll when you enter it does not grant a saving throw - your "saving throw" is the attack against whatever defense it is attacking. This means you cannot save when being pushed into a zone like grease, that makes an attack against your defense but you will get a saving throw when pushed into a trap/zone that does automatic damage when you are forced into it (Like an exposed pit trap's falling damage or a Wall of Fire).
    Examples

    A hidden pit trap that will make an attack against your defense upon entering - but after it is exposed see above.

    A trap with a non-damaging trigger (like a pressure plate or similar - unless the traps activation would inflict automatic damage and you were aware of the trap).

    A zone that inflicts automatic damage at the beginning of your turn, but not when you are pushed into it. Similarly, you get no save if you are pushed into the zone or terrain and it has to attack you for its effect.

    Terrain, zones and powers that do not inflict damage when you enter them. This never grants a saving throw, so if a zone would damage you at the beginning of your turn it won't grant a save. The ruling here is meant to deal with stacking large amounts of automatic unpreventable damage with forced movement, for example a shift 12 power that lets you move a monster (Or PC for that matter) through a Wall of fire multiple times stacking up huge amounts of automatic damage. Or pushing something into and out of a zone multiple times that does damage for every square of movement the creature is pushed/slid/pulled through. Similarly for a terrain features that deal damage on entry like a puddle of acid, brimstone hail and a howling wind (all examples from my two current games).

    Auras - Special example as a monsters aura never concedes a saving throw. It's an exception.
    Summary

    Do I get a saving throw?

    A) Does it inflict automatic damage without an attack roll on entry or being moved next to it?

    B) Is it a terrain feature, a zone, a conjuration or a trap?

    If both are yes, then the answer is yes.
    Lethal Terrain
    Purpose: This is a new terrain type I've made for 4E. It's definition is any terrain that would instantly kill or remove a creature from combat straight away. It actually doesn't affect monsters beyond solos, but it primarily affects PCs. An example of lethal terrain would be an obscenely high drop - EG thousands of feet. This either outright kills a PC or removes them from the fight entirely - neither is very fun!

    Effect: PCs and solo monsters - but nobody else unless specified - always have three saving throws before being affected by "lethal" terrain. The example of the drop indicates first a failure to catch yourself before falling, then you end up just "hanging" off the edge. You can take no other actions while in this state except a saving throw. Unlike death saving throws, any successful save means you climb back up, crawl out of whatever it was you were caught in or similar. If you fail three saving throws you're affected by whatever the lethal terrain is and horribly mangled/fall to your doom whatever.

    Solo monsters also get the same protection if this is ever actually required (probably rarely).
    Levels and Extended Rests
    Basically when you level up you automatically get the benefit of an extended rest with it (though this sets any gained action points to 1). This is to keep on adventuring through those long dungeons, even if it seems a bit video gamish.
    Solo Resilience
    Problem: Save ends effects are balanced against a solo needing to challenge five players by having a large bonus, but until end of next turn effects ignore any such balancing and increasing the worth of such powers over save ends effects - denying disproportionately more actions than the power mostly would against five creatures. It becomes paradoxically better to miss with a daily power that stuns until the end of your next turn as opposed to one that is save ends.

    Solution: Solo monsters can always save against the daze, dominate, stun and unconscious conditions from paragon tier onwards - even if these effects do not normally permit a save. Certain solos with the deity, primordial, god or similar keywords, demonlords like Orcus and archdevils like Graz'zt may save against all effects imposed on them (as Draconomicon specifies). These monsters will always have a specific power that indicates their saving conditions.

    Save ends powers are saved as normal or as written (some monsters can save when the effect is applied for example). Monsters that are affected by these conditions differently than normal, such as a Hydra follow the specific rules in their power and ignore this rule. This rule proved to be very effective and worked out extremely well with the Balor in SoH, which was a solo brute that was the same level as the party! As such I'm very happy with it. Note that all monsters will have a power that explains why they get a save against these effects (Draconic Majesty for Dragons and such). Also this rule does *not* affect heroic tier solos as I view them in a good balanced position. It's only paragon and upwards the rule applies and only creatures 30th level and only will benefit from the deity/primordial ruling. Noting that solos over level 30 do not automatically count as deities, only if I feel it will be appropriate.
    Swallow (New Condition)
    Swallow and monsters. This is a new condition that I use in my games and describes all swallow based mechanics. This is because I was playtesting my encounters, with some creatures that swallow I found the mechanics weren't consistent enough making it overly confusing. Swallow is now defined like any other condition and this is the basics of how all swallow based mechanics work (I will rewrite monsters to fit this - with some exceptions like Astral Dreadnoughts):

    Swallow
    You're restrained
    You only have line of sight and line of effect to the creature that swallowed you.
    No creature has line of sight or line of effect to you while you are swallowed.
    A creature with a swallowed target does not need to make a strength check to move with the target and moves at normal speed.
    You cannot mark targets while swallowed or be marked. Marks end immediately.
    A creature that cannot make opportunity attacks automatically regurgitates a swallowed target and cannot swallow another.

    Swallowing can deal damage and other effects as well depending on the monster.

    Purpose:
    Standardizing the "Swallow" mechanic used by several monsters so that I don't need a million lines of text. Swallow is a condition, so if a monster says "and you are swallowed" it means everything as written above. Other effects are described on an effect line "Effect while swallowed". This is to save space and make it clear what conditions and effects are being imposed on you. Restrained was common on all swallow mechanics and makes sense IMO, so all swallowing creatures do so. The line of effect/sight rules are for obvious logic, but bear in mind the second part of that means you can blast a creature with a swallowed ally to pieces with burst/blast effects without harming them. Any mark ends straight away, because otherwise it just makes for some really silly rules issues and interactions. The final line is to give an alternative way of helping a character that is swallowed out without having to kill the creature. This is to prevent cheap "Eat and run" tactics that can give almost zero chance of rescuing a swallowed character otherwise.

    Anything else:
    Anything that doesn't swallow specifically or sticks you in demiplanes I'll let have its own mechanics for "uniqueness". The Astral Dreadnought for example.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    First, I shouldn't have been capped and losing 40 minutes of the session this morning was really frustrating to me.

    I am incredibly happy with that otherwise though, really very happy. That was a major fight with moments where it was towards the PCs like the two epic crits from Orin at the start of the combat, the massive assault of elemental bursts and blasts that brought many PCs unconscious swinging it back. Then with the major AC penalty on Jerusha, Ter-Soth grabbing Lain at a critical moment and ramming an axe into Verax made things look truly dire. Then the removal of Orin and Verax from play and then the final crit to kill Jerusha. That was a perfect encounter for swinging a battle around one way and another, bloodying PCs and similar. That's exactly how I think an epic encounter with a named antagonist should be.

    I am though very disappointed that Terrendos and Rysk weren't there for it, because it was a really good combat in the end. It also didn't require an EL that I would think is extraneous. To get that sort of fight with the maths and general power philosophy pre-MM3 would require me to jack an EL up to +6 or +8. That was EL + 4 (and Jerusha was a EL + 2 solo, who was the star of the combat - not overshadowed by the cacodemon or the two heralds).

    Man, I'm going to have to make the battle with Abaddon twice as epic to make it up to Terrendos and Rysk for missing that.

    Also, all monsters will have an aura range. I'll try to get this working as well as possible - one of the reasons I've not used auras is because they can be extremely hard to get working on Large, Huge and similar creatures. However, I have heard what you said and I will endeavor to make sure you can see all auras. Auras will have colors depending on their range, with a 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6+ variant (most auras are between 1 and 5, some exceptions though exist). I will need to experiment with this, have you got a good link to making auras somewhere Goumindong?

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    So with Saphelon on the scene to inspect things and ensure everything was in order, I give you: MONSTER AURAS. From medium to huge creatures, with auras from 1-5 in size.

    MediumAura.jpg

    LargeAuraSize.jpg

    HugeAuraSize.jpg

    Aura's greater than 5 become very awkward and probably will make the entire battlefield look like someone just went to a 1970s disco (additionally, 1-5 is the most common type). Gargantuan creatures vary too much in size to make a set standard of auras for them.

    Comments appreciated on the coloration (It's generally easy to distinguish, map color obviously makes a bit of a different but it's usually pretty noticeable).

    Edit: This does of course mean that I am essentially never going to forget auras.

    Edit2: As you will be seeing them in future, the Molydeus Dual Brain now says "saves". As its an epic elite, it treats all stunned conditions as save ends (see above post). It will no longer automatically end the daze condition though. I forgot before the session that the creature didn't need any further "resistance" anymore and being dazed is perfectly fine for an elites action economy.

    Edit3: As an important rules clarification, if a monster DOESN'T have an aura and I click an aura button during its turn, it means it had its aura off and has now turned it on. Some canny creatures will not activate their auras until they can affect as many targets as possible with them. A creature can choose to deactivate and activate its aura as a minor action if it doesn't happen to have it currently active.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    As of immediately and going forward, Magic Missile is a class feature that ALL wizards have. You always have magic missile in addition to your two (or three if you're human) at-wills.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Whazawhat? Anyhow, I am out for HOCKEYSTUFFS today. I play a defender, and my marks are super effective!

    REG Rysk on
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    HOCKEYSTUFFS?!?!?

    Drama.

    Also I am distinctly not ill and in action for DnD. Looking forward to today actually.

    Also the magic missile ruling is just to make the core PhB more consistent with essentials. I think it's a decent "feature" and should be a part of all Wizards.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Hey guys, my computer is out of action due to a nasty hard drive implosion (or explosion, whichever one it was). I am *not* canceling the game though until the last possible moment this Friday. If I can find any way to play DnD this weekend I will take it - even if I have to remake my campaign file from scratch. I will let you know what is happening though, but I'm pretty determined to try and play this weekend if I can.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Which is a good thing, since I will be at a wedding next Saturday and unable to play.

    REG Rysk on
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I don't think we will be able to play, as the laptop doctors are getting in new parts for my computer. It seems that she's really gone down very badly and so it looks very unlikely my computer will be functional this weekend. That's rather gutting. None the less, it gives me lots of time to work on Mark of War now. I am still not 100% giving up yet though!

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Okay so the laptop drama is not over just yet, but hopefully I will have lappy back by the middle of the week. I shall keep you updated on the developing drama and situation as it evolves!

    Otherwise I have modified both of my elite and solo resistance rules. Quite frankly they were too complicated and there is a simple way of expressing both:

    Elite Resistance:

    Elite monsters always treat the stunned condition as save ends.

    Solo resistance:

    Solo monsters always treat the daze, dominate, stunned and unconscious conditions as save ends.

    Basically, regardless of what the original effect says the respective monster treats the condition as save ends and any normal power that the monster has that interacts with save ends effects applies (EG immediate interrupt saving throws when a condition is applied). This now just applies at all tiers - given its working out better than anticipated in my heroic IRL game. Solo monsters or elites that have specific powers that change daze and stun or other conditions to something else, like the Hydra "hydra's fury" ignore this rule in favor of their specific power or ability. This also makes it a consistent rule across all tiers, instead of suddenly applying out of the blue from nowhere.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Question: what about my power that stuns EONT with an aftereffect to daze EONT? I'm assuming that both become (save ends) on a Solo?

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Yeah, but an immediate action save (for example) would only apply to the first and not to the aftereffect.

    A molydeus (which is an elite) that you've faced has Dual Brain. This means he automatically saves stun effects, so would save the stun part automatically but still be dazed until the end of your next turn (and he can't save that anymore, because I'm keeping the original wording of dual brain). Basically the simplest way to think of it is that if anything is daze, dominate, stun or unconscious a solo simply treats it as save ends. Note that it doesn't change that the power still only works until the end of your next turn (or the creatures turn or whatever else). This is actually an effort to devalue "Until end of next turn" daze and similar effects over save ends.

    After all, if a solo fails a save ends stun he's going to be a lot worse off than an until end of next turn stun - one of these effects keeps going when he fails. The overall effect of this rule has been pleasing, because now I've noticed a general trend in my playtests (And my IRL group optimizers) that "save ends" is regarded as utterly worthless over an until end of next turn effect. One is now definitively worse than the other, which is how it should be because hitting with Destructive Salutation (as the poster child example) should never ever ever be worse than missing with it. As it was before, it was always more worthwhile deliberately missing with it: EG running and going prone as a minor action for a -7 to hit penalty and then attacking.

    Yes. The bloodmage I had seriously did that.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Okay, so if I inflict a solo with stun EONT, and he doesn't save from it, it still ends at the end of my next turn?

    LAME

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Okay, so if I inflict a solo with stun EONT, and he doesn't save from it, it still ends at the end of my next turn?

    LAME

    Yes, they merely treat them as save ends effects (so they get any relevant saves or similar) - but they end at their normal duration. It makes them a significantly weaker save ends effects than an actual save ends.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I feel really bad for not being around as much as I have lately. I have been really really busy and will likely continue to be until the unforeseeable future (heavy course load in the summer ending soon... to be replaced with an exceptionally heavy course load in the fall... to be replaced with the same in the spring... to be replaced with graduate school).

    So i will finish this game out, but won't be able to play in the next one.

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    That's sorry to hear Goumindong, I've appreciated playing with you and it's been good to have you around. We've only got around ~3 sessions of this game to go, so sticking around just for that would be appreciated. I'll find someone new for Mark of War.

    Good playing with you :D

    As for the game this weekend, it looks like I won't have my laptop back until Friday, which makes playing unlikely :( Sigh.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Success! We are playing tomorrow! I was able to reconstruct the campaign mostly from memory. So we'll be able to finish this part off and then level 30. Wooo!

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Okay, so I will detail the treasure later but it's likely to be one huge "put everything that I haven't handed out" into one encounter thing. So there won't be any further treasure - except if I find it amusing for whatever reason - for the rest of the game. You'll have more than enough time to enchant whatever you want before marching into Hephaestus to finally confront and hopefully stop Eve forever.

    You're all level 30! Huzzah! I'm not sure just yet what I want to do with level 30 at the moment, but it's likely we've got another 2 or 3 sessions. It's been a long road but I am looking forward to your reaction to the final encounter :D

    Bahamuts Soul Stone: So Bahamut at the moment is firmly dead, but his divine energy is within your grasp and more than willing to aid you. Should it be needed, you can do any of the three following things with this item:

    Reforge Bahamut: This requires the forge on Celestia that you defended from the Archons. This resurrects the Platinum Dragon and he's back to being a God again. Technically speaking though, you could nick off with it and in your characters epilogue, dedicate your life to finding out how to steal his divine essence to become a god. That is actually an option as well - but takes far longer than is practical for the rest of this campaign.

    Destroy the Soul Gem: This is a once only power and it takes a minor action to use (so make sure you're carrying it at the time and can use it if things get desperate). When used it creatures blinding white light within a 10 square area. Any dead ally within it is ressurected, with full HPs, all their powers and they act as if they have spent an extended rest. Anyone else gains an immediate extended rest. All negative conditions upon the characters are negated as well and any enemy within the area is weakened until the end of the users next turn. It also cannot end or negate the effect in any manner. Bahamuts soul is permanently destroyed when you do this and his divine energy is lost.

    The divine resurrection provided by this item can even send your souls back when Orcus takes them. This is the ONLY way to resurrect characters killed when you progress into Hephaestus' forge (this is the moment that Orcus gains supremacy over the Death Portfolio).

    Throw it into the Forge's Heart: At some point you'll be within the forge of Hephaestus, if you throw this into the forge it destroys Bahamut, yourselves and everything else that's even anywhere near Hephaestus. This is the "heroic sacrifice" option - if everything seems pointless and you do not feel you can win - this is your last possible ditch attempt to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. I suggest using this only in the absolute last resort and only if you feel the above won't help.

    This all does depend on how you chat with Belarousse though. He might have a slightly different interpretation of what you should be doing with that divine essence of Bahamuts.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Just a heads up that Verax should not be allowed to hold onto Bahamut's essence. Because there is zero chance he would let anything but the "reforge Bahamut" outcome happen.

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Just a heads up that Verax should not be allowed to hold onto Bahamut's essence. Because there is zero chance he would let anything but the "reforge Bahamut" outcome happen.

    Well, if you're dead then you may not get a choice because another PC might take it and use it. That's probably one of those "Desperate" situations I mentioned before. In the end though, how you handle it is literally entirely up to you. The final encounter is very difficult, but I'm not inherently designing the end fight to assume you use it.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    By the way, a couple of things I'd like included in the treasure parcels:

    1. Soulguard ritual, if we don't already have it. It takes an hour to cast, but having another "get out of death free" card can't be a bad thing. It doesn't require a check, so Verax and Saphelon can both use it.

    2. Is there a magic item to increase Verax's number of surges? If so, one of those please. It's getting to the point where I'm afraid to heal myself because I get so low on surges between extended rests.

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I can't think of anything off hand that might increase your surges, because the one I do know I think gives charisma surges and I made one specifically for Saphelon. How many Surges do you have maximum again? You can regain surges and dailies within Hephaestus though. It's designed that you can keep going without an extended rest throughout it - as the pacing towards the conclusion of the campaign should be pretty breakneck to build tension and momentum.

    As to Soulguard, yes you can have that.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    There is the feat that gives +2 to surges. Do you have that yet?

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    No, I don't have that one. I might take the feat that lets my healing words draw surges from anyone though. Shared Healing? Don't have the books with me but I think it lets the party mooch surges off people with way too many.

    I've got 9 surges, plus I get one more from my magic ring.

    Terrendos on
    Sig1.png
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    It's shared healing:
    Benefit: When you use a power that allows an ally to spend a healing surge, you can instead have that ally regain hit points as if he or she had spent a healing surge, and you or another willing ally within 5 squares of you spends the healing surge instead.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    That is awesome, considering how quickly I go through 14 healing surges now-a-days

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
Sign In or Register to comment.