Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!
SotW: The PA Hardware buyers guide.
Saban
Registered User
Registered User
The PA Hardware buyers guide.
Heres the first update, ill add a bunch of video cards, with prices, specs, and pros and cons to the card, along with a section for drivers from nvidia and ATI. Read the bottom rules section before you think about replying, and im looking to have this thread stickied, if any mod would be so kind.
What Should you upgrade first?
This thread will cover most hardware related questions about what you should upgrade, and what to upgrade too. So lets discuss, what should you upgrade first, for the most performance for your money?
Memory is a huge part of your windows performance, and if your running less then 512 DDR memory, i suggest upgrading, especially if your running windows XP. Videocards can give you a big boost in gaming, but not much change in other windows apps.A hard drive upgrade will not give you a big boost in performance, but try for a 7200 RPM HD, at least 40-60 Gigs, and fast seek time(The speed at which the HD can seek data or something like that). If your running below a 2Ghz processor, you could probably stand to upgrade, look for a P4, or if you wanna save money and get good bang for you buck, look for Athlon 2000+. Motherboards usually arent really mentioned for performance upgrades, but they can play a big part. If your running a P4, look for a mobo that supports high FSB speeds, can use dual channel DDR memory, and supports AGP 8X. The same ideas go with Athlon mobos too. When shopping for a processor, look for Intel Pentium 4, or Athlon XP. You see other proccessors like intel celeron and Athlon duron, but those are mostly for lower grade CPUs, or even server processors.
Videocards.
Heres the first, and probably most important question. Why should you upgrade, and do you need to upgrade?
If you want to play the newer games coming out, especially HL2, and Doom 3, youll need a card that supports DX9 to play it comfortably. If you running anything lower then DX8, i suggest upgrading to around at least a Radeon 8500, or a Geforce 4600 Ti. Look for also at least 128 DDR SDRAM.
Now, lets find out what company you want to support, ATI, or Nvidia.
Nvidia Geforce cards have great drivers, but lately I've been hearing bad things about their cards, like bad performance for the cash, they sound capable of space flight, such and such. Personally, i know next to nothing about Nvidia cards, since ive never owned one, hence my bias to ATI cards. I'm quite sure a Nvidia fanboy will contribute some good information eventually.
ATI Radeon website series. ATI cards are very good price and performance, but until lately, their drivers sucked, no uninstall, and other such crapiness. the latest ATI drivers are excellent, with ability to save video profiles, make games play in Black and white mode, and the ability to uninstall the drivers, they've busted out the big guns.
Now you may be looking at your various websites, and seeing cards like sapphire ATI radeon, or such and such Nvidia geforce. These cards for the most part, i think, are originally made by their respective companies, but modified to optimize, or even reduce performance. I prefer to buy directly from the original maker, but sometimes these other companies offer games and such with their cards.
When you look at the box of your Card, youll see all these cryptic stats, like Core bus speeds, memory and such, ill break them down for you.
Chipset: The core of your card, persay. There is 2 basic chipsets, ATI radeon, and Nvidias Geforce cards. You see those other cards from other companies, but they all run the same chipsets of their original siblings.
Memory size: Ram is used to store information about the geometry of the 3D models the card is rendering, as well as the actual textures that are being stretched across those models. Current games use most of the 128 memory, and some even use some of the 256 in newer cards. 128 will be more then enough to last you for a few months, but if you have the cash to spend, go for 256.
Memory Type: The first number of this spec youll see is a XXX-Bit number, this refers to the amount of data the cards memory can transfer each clock cycle, the bigger then better. The second number is XXXMhz, this refers to the speed, the bigger number, the better. The last part of the spec will be DDR SDRAM, double data rate memory, which means it transfers data twice as fast as the old SDRAM.
[/b]RAMDAC:[/b] This number will be a XXXMhz type deal. this converts digital signal producded by the videocard into analog signal that a CRT monitor can display. the faster the Ramdac, the higher the maximum resolution and faster refresh rate the videocard can drive.
Maximum Resolution: This is the maximum resolution and refresh rate a videocard can support.
AGP type
Some newer cards support AGP 8X, most cards support at least 4X, this number refers to the amount of memory bandwidth it supports, 4X is i think, 1GB per second data transfer, while 8X is 2 GB per second. im not sure the exact number atm.
Lets take the RAdeon 9800 series for example.
Chipset: ATI R300
Memory size: 128MB
Memory Type: 256-bit, 330Mhz DDR SDRAM.
RAMDAC: 350MHZ
Max resolution: 2048x1600@85Mhz.
AGP 8X.
Thanks to MaximumPC Website for showing me wtf these specs mean..
Now, lets talk about Direct X 9, Pixel and Vertex shaders.
Direct X9 is the basic 3d thingamagig(ill update a more detailed explanation when i know one later) that runs with windows, and gives increased performance in games. A card that has full support of DX9 will be able to use more Advanced effects shown in upcoming games like Half-life 2(fapfapfap), and Doom 3.
Some of these features are, Detail props, which are set pieces that add realism to scenes. Reflective and refractive water, reflective water reflects images, but refractive water, which can bend incoming light, which makes it look more realistic. Volumetric effects, like fog, which makes fog appear in patchy and uneven amounts, and makes it look more realistic. Some of these features are hardly new, but they work better with DX9. Some low end cards say they support DX9, but their low memory bandwidth hinders performance.
Pixel and Vertex Shaders made shadows and stuff, im not really sure yet, so ill update later.
Some Direct X7 cards are.
Any nvidia with SDRAM and DDR SDRAM
Any nvidia Geforce 2
Any unnumbered ATI Radeon
ATI radeon 7000 series
Direct X8.
Any nvidia Geforce 3 or 4
ATI Radeon 8500
Any ATI radeon 9000
Any ATI radeon 9200
Matrox Parhelia
Any SiS Xabre.
Direct X9
Any Nvidia Geforce FX between 5200-5900.
Any ATI Radeon between 9500-9800.
I used PCGamer's ( www.pcgamer.com ) Half-Life 2 article from august 2003 to give this Direct X9 writeup, so i must give them some credit.
Now heres a thing most people never look at, noise level. Ive never had a problem with no level on my card, but from what i hear, some Nvidia cards are pretty loud, and also some radeon cards with big fans can be noisy. If your buying a card for the sole purpose of gaming, no OCing or anything, id look for one with a smaller fan, and try to find out how noisy it is before buying. If you want to OC, you might want a larger fan to accomodate for increased tempetures.
Heres some links to the drivers from each company.
ATI Radeon Catalyst 3.8 Drivers
Im going away for a few days, and since listing all the recent cards takes to much time that i dont have, ill just list the 3 cards you really should bother looking at.
Budget card
Radeon 9600 PRO, its the best card for under 200$, so buy it.
Top end cards
Radeon 9800 XT, or Geforce FX 5900 ULTRA.
Either of those cards are more then any recent game needs, but the radeon will perform better for HL2.
If your looking for any other cards, PM me and ill give you my poorly informed insight.
Some rules I'd like people to kindly adhere to.
I'm looking for people to write a report type thing for specific parts of the computer, like processors and memory, mobos etc, and keep it relativly up to date. PM me if your interested.
If you have corrections to make, or want to add something, PM me, i dont want to clutter the thread with corrections.
And umm, yea, try not to make replies.
Saban on
Posts
We will be deleting posts to keep this clean.
stomping around and craving blood
First Half-Life 2 benchmark results showing the clear lead that ATI have in DX9 at the moment. *
However nVidia cards have still handle OpenGL games better across the board
*anyone seen HL2 benchmark with the updated nVidia drivers?
256 MB DDR RAM & 730 mhz
GPU & 412 mhz
Comes with a voucher for HL2 that you mail in to revceive HL, HL2, CS, DOD, and Opposing Force.
The Asus flavor has a different cooling set up, and comes with 6 game demos on top of the HL2 offer. OEM versions of ATi cards do not contain HL2.
The 9800 pro comes in 128 mb and 256 mb flavors,
with the mem clocked & 680 mhz and gpu clocked at 380. If you bought after oct 1st, you are entitled to HL2.
http://kennycordray.com
Interesting times... Decisions, decisions...
I'd like to thank Saban for getting this started. Excellent work.
PA Lets Play Archive - Twitter - Blog
Couldn't you make a seperate thread specifically for chit-chat. As in technical stuff get's posted to both threads, but the sticky one is pure information and the chit-chat contains discussions around what is posted?
Naturally. I forgot to mention that.
PA Lets Play Archive - Twitter - Blog
If you want P4 mobos, intel D87PBZ or Chaintech 9CJS Zenith are some of your best choices.
If Athlon, Asus A7N8X Deluxe, or MSI K7N2 Delta-ILSR are the some of the best.
The soundstorm audio solution can be confusing. It is an excellent integrated sound component. But, for it to be enabled, you must be using a digital coaxial connection from the mobo to your speakers. Otherwise, you are using a basic analog codec which is not soundstorm, but you still can configure your analog connection through the soundstorm menu.
The A7N8X comes in many flavors.
The Deluxe has the most. Newer versions supports a 200 mhz FSB, letting you use the newest Barton cpus. The 3200 which has a 400 FSB.
You also get Dual Channel memory. This is very beneficial if you decide to use integrated video, but performance is noticed when not using integrated video. You must have 2 identical sticks of memory to use this function.
Sata Raid 0, 0+1. and JBOD are supported. It comes with cables, but no converters for ide drives. If you decide to by the $30.00 converter, it will work, and has a noticable improvement.
You get 2 integrated ethernet ports. One is Nvidia (excellent) and one is 3com(sucks) There is a rumor that using the Nvidia uses less cpu and the 3com.
The Asus A7N8X-X Does not support dual channel, SATA and has only one ethernet (the nvidia one)
(mod pm me to remove this is you think its site whoring)
I have written an article about upkeeping your computer if you have noticed a loss in performance Here
http://kennycordray.com
Im gonna keep this post filled with videocard related links, from drivers, benchmarks, to install guides and such.
Benchmark links
3DMark website, best benchmarking tool
Half life 2 benchmarks
Driver links
Nvidia Drivers
Direct X website
Card reviews
Toms hardware Videocard roundup
Anandtech roundup part 3
Anandtech high end shootout part 2
Anandtech card roundup part 1
Anandtech Radeon 9600 PRO review
Anandtech Nvidia Geforce 5200/5600 Ultra reviews
AnandtechGeforce 5700 Ultra review
Anandtech Geforce 5800 Review
Anandtech Radeon 9800 PRO review
Anandtech Catalyst 3.8 driver review
Anandtech Geforce 5900 Ultra review
Install guides
Overclocking guides
Breaking news links
(Ill keep these links as up to date as possible about videocard related news, like new cards, or other thing}
Please PM me or post more links here, i trust the mods to keep this thread clean.
I dont mean someone do all of these, but if someone could write a guide on any one of them, or even combine some things like cases, powersupplies, or processors and cooling etc.
pm me if your interested and able to keep it updated reasonably.
When installing your cpu, add a small about of thermal grease to the top of the cpu, making sure that only the core is covered. Then install your fan. Make sure you plug the fans power in before you start your computer for the first time, as you dont want to fry your new cpu.
http://kennycordray.com
Awesome advice, i fried 2 soltek mobos because i had too many risers, and one of them fried the mobo on the case.
All my post need 2 minute editing time
Nowadays u dont even need a cd drive. Usually a dvd and a dvd-r will do everything for you. Of a dvd and cd-r, which is what i have.
http://kennycordray.com
Also i need an A drive...(On newegg i cannot find anything on what my mobo supports related to cd drives)
All my post need 2 minute editing time
Southbridge UDMA 133 Support VIA 6410 IDE RAID
Is there any company i should look for? Pioneer MSI?
All my post need 2 minute editing time
http://kennycordray.com
well that last one isnt really important...
As for motherboards, I'm currently running an Abit IS7-E with a pentium 4 2.4ghz hyperthread. I love the p4, the motherboard I've had some issues with, I really wouldn't recommend it. I do hear good things about the IS7-G though, I might actually replace my board with that one sometime after xmas.
RAM is cheap, if you're not running a gig, you're not a gamer.
Video Cards I'm running a hercules ATI Radeon 9800 pro 128, it kicks butt. One thing to remember on those benchmark tests though is yeah, the NVidia high end cards outperform the cheaper ati cards... but framerates over 100 are indistinguishable to the human eye. Stick with the upper-mid range ATI cards unless you have money to burn. Especially since Half Life 2 and Doom 3 are delayed. Prices will come down by then.
Sound I do like the sound blaster audigy 2 because it has a firewire port on it which does in fact allow me to plug in my iPod (my mobo doesn't have firewire on it). So that card is a good solution if you don't have firewire on your mobo.
14-120-138 VGA HERCULES|9800 PRO 128MB OEM $429.00
19-116-157 CPU P4/2.4CGHz 800M 478P/512K HT RT $177.00
20-145-416 DDRAM 512MB 32MX8 PC-3200C2 COR% $224.00 (2)
22-144-200 HD 36GB|WD 10,000 WD360GD 8MB $138.00
27-106-196 CDRW DVD 48X24X48X16|LITEON BLACK $63.00
29-102-158 SOUND BLASTER|AUDIGY 2 PCI SB0244 $78.00
35-118-106 CPU FAN A/I ZALMAN CNPS7000-CU RT $41.99
11-125-220 CASE CHEF|AX-01BLD SPX2 U2F SF BL0W $64.00
17-159-003 POWER SUPPLY AL COOLMAX 470W CT-470 $89.99
35-130-002 CASE FAN COOLMAX 80x25 4BLUE LED RT $11.98 (2)
Bought the ABIT IS7-E from a different vendor, but like I said before I don't recommend it.
The cheiftec case is nice, they're alienware-esque, the cpu fan is great and the design is wicked cool looking if you have a see-in case.
That's $1317 without motherboard or monitor. If you're saving money you could ditch the audigy 2 and use onboard motherboard sound... a lessor video card could shave some bucks and the power supply was definately overkill =).
Cheers!
I'd like to come back to these diagrams for a moment. Where do you all see these things? The idea I get quickly is that the XT is only negligibly better than the 9800 Pro, and certainly not worth that extra change.
Now, what takes me here is that both the Geforce 5900 and especially 5950 seem to blow everything else out of the park.
Comments? Experience? Anything? :wink:
Reason is: I have a 5600 Ultra and it's done me well enough, but I am starting to see some issues with it, and certainly the brick wall forthcoming with certain games, that makes me believe I might want to upgrade and it looks like a tough choice to make.
I HIGHLY recommend the MSI boards. I'm using the 875P-Neo LSR and it's amazing. Plus it has neato flashing lights....
I had a Santa Cruz for quite a while and I'd say that it's better than a SB Live! 5.1 but not as good as an Audigy. I just think that they're a little outdated at the moment. I'd pick an OEM Audigy (regular, 2, or 2 ZS if or when it's available). If you're building a new AMD system, take a good, long look at the nForce2 APU.
Try to scoop one up before they sell out. The card kicks arse. Not quite as fast as the ultra, only 128mb ram, but still, on par wth a 9800 non pro that sells for $250, if not better.
It's an upgrade to my current system. I'm mainly looking for something with moderate-to-good driver support, with extra points going to any card with moderate-to-good Linux support.
Well then, my suggestion would be the Audigy.
Shoot, I was in CompUSA today and I saw a 30 inch HDTV ready, 30 inch Samsung for $650. It was a "manager's special" and it looked really nice. The normal price on it had supposedly been $999. The catch to this was probably that these were
1.) Floor models and/or 2.) Something newer and a lot better is about to come out.
But still, $650 for a 30 inch HDTV? Widescreen no less.
That monitor's awfully damned expensive. You're basically buying a TV, so I hope you buy something that does it all for ya!
That's always been a bitch of mine. You have to have a monitor, just like you need an engine in a car. I think monitors are way too damned expensive and when you buy a computer you should get a free, kind of basic line monitor. You would start paying extra for going real fancy.
Hi,
I'm using a Geforce4 Ti4200 and I'm thinking of upgrading, would going to an eVGA Nvidia Geforce FX 5600 256MB DDR be a good upgrade? Or how about a radeon 9800 non pro with 128 megs of memory?
Thanks
If you are building an AMD XP system, the motherboard to get is the ABIT NF7-S (revision 2 *only*).