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Do Internet Relationships work?

PROXPROX Registered User regular
edited November 2008 in Help / Advice Forum
Thread title!
I'm wondering if starting a relationship online works out? I've heard mostly no and some hell nos.

PROX on
«1

Posts

  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Depends.

    Spoiler:
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Do you mean with someone you're only going to be able to meet once a year? Or do you mean someone that you meet online instead of at a pub/club etc.

    Because the first one... not really but there's exceptions, the second isn't any different from meeting someone any other way.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah, you need to specify what you are talking about. I met my girl via online personals, then we chatted for a bit before we met up.

  • Iceman.USAFIceman.USAF Captain East CoastRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I've met several people (mostly women, I admit) online. My current GF actually. And a very close friend of mine. I think we started talking when I was in 8th grade, and ended up going to college across town from each other. We still talk daily (I'm 22 now).

    So yeah, sure it can work definitely.



  • PROXPROX Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

  • Dark MoonDark Moon Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    For all intents and purposes, no. There may be exceptions, but they will be very few, very far between and have already been together for a long time before moving to a long-distance relationship with so few physical meetings.

    3072973561_de17a80845_o.jpg
  • mooshoeporkmooshoepork Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    It's possible...but unlikely. People need physical interaction. If you meant to do that forever, obviously it wouldn't work. How long until you could be with each other?

    I met my current girlfriend of 3 years over the internet, and two of the greatest people I know.

    One, I've known for 8 years, and haven't met him and we're still friends.

  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    Okay, if you seriously want advice, you're going to have to give us more detail. As in;

    How old are you both?
    How far do you live from each other?
    How long have you known each other?

    And even with all that, I would still say no. Especially if you're looking at long term. If you guys were already serious and had to have a long distance relationship, that might be one thing(and even then..), but to start off like that, it's really, really hard. Both of you are better of finding someone in your area.

    I speak from personal experience.

    Spoiler:
  • FFFF Once Upon a Time In OaklandRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    I don't think you'll get a real yes or no kind of answer. However, just from my personal experience;

    I met a girl online, totally randomly, and now (2 years later) we're living together. Things just seemed to work out that way. I believe her and I only met in person 3 or 4 times before she moved out here. (She was in MO I'm in CA) So, yeah, internet relationships work out if you go by my anecdotal evidence. The thing that I think really held it together was her and I would chat for HOURS every single day. We'd miss a day or two every now and then, but really, we were talking with each other for probably 30+ hours a week all told.

    Nothing to see here. move along...
  • Kate of LokysKate of Lokys Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I met my boyfriend through these message boards. We talked online and on the phone for more than a year - just as friends for the first nine months, then after having the first hesitant "I... I love you" exchange, we had to wait another three months before we actually met in person. We're currently living together, albeit temporarily, and I'm pretty damned sure I'll be spending the rest of my life with the guy.

    Internet relationships can work, but not if they stay internet relationships for long. As the stereotypical girl gamer on the internet since the time I hit puberty, I've had my share of the "OMG we talk for six hours a day, we must be in love!" stuff. If that's the boat you're in, don't confuse intellectual infatuation with genuine affection. On the internet, everyone has the potential to be fascinating and brilliant and witty and charming, because they have time to think about what they're saying. That doesn't always translate well to face-to-face communication. Online, I'm brash, gleefully sarcastic, and possessed of a savage wit; in person, I'm too shy to call myself a wallflower, I'm more like an unnoticed patch of mold blending in with the wallpaper up near the ceiling.

    Using online dating services are much simpler, because people tend to know what to expect going into them. There's none of that sudden rush of puppy love when you realize you've been spending forever playing Warcraft with this person and you've just now realized how wonderful she is; on a dating site, you're looking for love. Or at least lust.

    Regardless of whether you meet someone through a dating site or an unrelated online activity, though... if you think they could be The One (tm), or even just fun to date for a few weeks, for God's sake meet them in person as soon as possible. Humans are animals, despite our various trappings to the contrary, and we still respond to attributes in each other that just cannot be conveyed via IM or email, or even phone or webcam. We respond to the way our prospective mates touch us, and to the way they smell, and to a whole bunch of other things you'll never get to take in unless you're interacting with them in person. Chemistry is a complicated fucking thing: it's entirely possible to fall in love with someone online, to be totally amazed by their intelligence and beliefs and insight into the world, to think they're amazingly hot based on the pictures they send you... then when you meet in person, things just don't click. They're still intelligent, they're still hot, but you just don't particularly want to be around them.

    That's a hard thing to go through, so do it before you invest weeks or months in a relationship, because it only gets harder the longer you wait.

    I'm here to tell you about voting. Imagine you're locked in a huge underground nightclub filled with sinners, whores, freaks and unnameable things that rape pit bulls for fun. And you ain't allowed out until you all vote on what you're going to do tonight [. . .] So you vote for television, and everyone else, as far as your eye can see, votes to fuck you with switchblades. That's voting. You're welcome.
  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Internet relationships can work, but not if they stay internet relationships for long. As the stereotypical girl gamer on the internet since the time I hit puberty, I've had my share of the "OMG we talk for six hours a day, we must be in love!" stuff. If that's the boat you're in, don't confuse intellectual infatuation with genuine affection. On the internet, everyone has the potential to be fascinating and brilliant and witty and charming, because they have time to think about what they're saying. That doesn't always translate well to face-to-face communication. Online, I'm brash, gleefully sarcastic, and possessed of a savage wit; in person, I'm too shy to call myself a wallflower, I'm more like an unnoticed patch of mold blending in with the wallpaper up near the ceiling.

    This.

    Spoiler:
  • PROXPROX Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Thanks for the advice. I think I'm just too obsessed over getting girlfriend that I'm latching on to long shots. I should meet new people on the internet.

    Oh yeah I'm 24, almost 25.

  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Relax. There's nothing wrong with not having a girlfriend.

    Spoiler:
  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    With all the people that say no, how many relationships did work out? Because I mean once you get married or whatever you do kind of stop looking for successful relationships.

    My point is that they are no real differences between online and ones that start in real life. Before the internet people dated long distances through phonecalls and letter writing. Now days if anything it's easier with the advent of video calling.

    If you can handle the distance thing yeah they, work as well as any other relationship. This does not mean that you will automatically be happy forever and ever because no relationship is a garuntee.

    What makes a long distance relationship work is communication, honesty (though to be fair they should be in any relationship) and an end plan, which means eventually coming together if things work well. As nice as it is to whisper sweet nothings to each other it's going to fall apart if you know you aren't working towards something.

  • MagicToasterMagicToaster Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Prox, you're an awesome guy that deserves an awesome girl. Don't worry, you'll find someone who's an ideal match for you soon.

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  • DeathwingDeathwing Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    'm wondering if starting a relationship online works out?

    It can. I first met my wife via a friend on a MUD in 1999, we started seeing eachother in person when I started college the next year, and got married in 2005...Still together :)
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    Possible, yes. Ideal, no.

    In my case, once I got to college, my wife and I (she was here in NoVA, I was in western New York) saw eachother in person at least once a month, sometimes twice. Also talked constantly on AIM and more phone conversations than I can easily recall.

    I think if the only reason you're considering a long-distance relationship is because you're just obsessed with finding a girlfriend....You need to step back and not do it. The stress, frustration and level of trust involved shouldn't be taken lightly.

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  • VThornheartVThornheart Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Thread title!
    I'm wondering if starting a relationship online works out? I've heard mostly no and some hell nos.

    ProX, indeed it can work!

    My wife and I, in fact, met on the internet! It's a long story that I think I've told a couple of times here before so people might be sick of hearing it ( =) ), but basically we made a really strong connection online and realized that we had a lot in common, and got a lot of "first date" and even "first month" getting to know you stuff out of the way without the awkwardness of meeting in person.

    When we finally met, it was like we had known each other for a long time... and the rest is history, I've been a happily married man for going on three years now!

    The thing is, I think the talking online for a while before actually meeting in person was the most important part to making the online start work. If you just introduce yourselves online and then immediately arrange to meet up, there's still the awkwardness of the first date because you didn't actually get to know each other... PLUS there's the additional awkwardness of "I don't know if this person's going to turn out to be a creepy stalker or kill me and throw me in a ravine" that you get when you don't know someone at all and go on a date with them.

    So if you go for an online startup to a relationship, take some time and chat a lot before you meet in person... don't just jump into meeting in person. But *DO* be honest with each other about everything: what your interests are, what you like and don't like, what you look like, everything. Otherwise that first meeting isn't going to be like you've known each other for a long time... it'll be like you realized you've been hustled. That's the best advice I can give for it.

    EDIT: To clarify, I mean "wait before you meet" as in "wait a month or so", not "wait a year or so". I definitely think you can wait TOO long, as Kate mentioned.

    3DS Friend Code: 1950-8938-9095
  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Don't be that guy. Find you a local or semi-local girl. They're out there. It's cliche, but when you stop looking for a girlfriend, that's when you'll find one.

    I met my wife online in 1998. She was from my hometown, but was living about 3.5 hours away. We were just friends until we started meeting in person, then we were pretty much switching out weekends driving to see the other. We did that for about 2 months until I moved to where she lived (had to move away somewhere to go to college anyway, might as well have been there). We got married in 2000 and are still going strong.

    I'd had a couple of mostly online relationships before that, and they very, very rarely work out. Relationships are about more than talking to each other.

    camo_sig2.png
  • DelzhandDelzhand motivated battle programmerRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I met my wife in high school three days before she had to move 300 miles away. We kept in touch for a few years and eventually she moved back to be with me. Relationships may be about more than talking to each other, but being able to base a relationship on real communication is a powerful thing, particularly if you're not really into the dating scene.

    Of course, I think we're the exception to the rule. The question isn't whether or not distance relationships are viable, because there's not a good answer. The question is whether or not you are comfortable trusting someone explicitly on their word, and whether or not you're willing to be honest and honor the trust they have in you.

    It can work, and it can be beautiful. But it is hard work, and you have to both want it more than anything else.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It can work, if both parties want it to.

    I can't say it's an easy thing to do, but we (myself and my girlfriend) have been managing for a while now.

    optimusighsig.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It can work, but the chances of it working are slims. And I speak from experience.

    It sucks but when you know someone online, you only know part of them, the part they're willing to show you. You also make connections that feel much stronger than they may actually be.

    Also alot of these times these relationships end up being "substitute" relationships. You want someone to be there for you in a boyfriend/girlfriend sense, and you attach yourself to the relationship. Of course, when one of the parties actually comes across someone in real life, the other party ends up being devastated. Again, personal experience, and it's not a nice feeling.

    The reason I bring that up is because you said so yourself that your obsessing over not having a girlfriend, so this may be a real possibility for you.

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  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?
    Of course, if both parties are willing to work at it.

    I've seen my fiancé three times in two and a half years. Visa forums are generally filled with even more unlikely success stories - some fail, but the majority of relationships that are long distance and serious, succeed.

    sharasugar_80.png sharanomsugar_80.png
  • FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY EVERY DAYRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    No.

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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    No.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    I've known people it worked for.
    One pair of friends of mine had a relationship going across the Atlantic, so they could only meet a couple of times a year, and kept that going for years. They got married recently.
    It depends on the people, really.

  • EriosErios Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Fallout wrote: »
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    No.


    The universe will implode with the rejection of causality. Next thing we know, we will be overrun with perpetual motion machines!

    In all seriousness, it depends on your libido and access to a webcam. Also, for some, long distance relationships are great because one can schedule one's life the way one wants, as well as having sole discretion in terms of friends.

    Steam: erios23, Live: Coconut Flavor, Origin: erios2386.
  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Erios wrote: »
    Fallout wrote: »
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    No.


    The universe will implode with the rejection of causality. Next thing we know, we will be overrun with perpetual motion machines!

    In all seriousness, it depends on your libido and access to a webcam. Also, for some, long distance relationships are great because one can schedule one's life the way one wants, as well as having sole discretion in terms of friends.

    Wait, what?

    A relationship shouldn't change any of that.

    Spoiler:
  • oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Internet relationships can work, but not if they stay internet relationships for long. As the stereotypical girl gamer on the internet since the time I hit puberty, I've had my share of the "OMG we talk for six hours a day, we must be in love!" stuff. If that's the boat you're in, don't confuse intellectual infatuation with genuine affection. On the internet, everyone has the potential to be fascinating and brilliant and witty and charming, because they have time to think about what they're saying. That doesn't always translate well to face-to-face communication. Online, I'm brash, gleefully sarcastic, and possessed of a savage wit; in person, I'm too shy to call myself a wallflower, I'm more like an unnoticed patch of mold blending in with the wallpaper up near the ceiling.

    This.

    Also, we tend to read online communication in whatever light we want because there is no body language to contextualize it. The person you communicate with online is more your idealized version of that person than that person in reality. If 90% percent of communication is non-verbal (or whatever figure they've given it), it becomes a question of if you even can get to really know a person with whom your sole communication is in writing.

    The point of a relationship is to connect with another person intellectually, emotionally, and physically. Meeting somebody online with the intent of spending time with him/her in person is fine, but if you're going to confine the majority of your relationship to written communication, what's the point?

  • JansonJanson Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Fallout wrote: »
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    No.
    No.

    :P

    Honestly, if people can cope with being single for months at a time, they can cope with being in long distant relationships. It all boils down to whether or not they want to, but just saying 'no' is unhelpful and inaccurate.

    sharasugar_80.png sharanomsugar_80.png
  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I met my husband online, and we were about a thousand miles away from each other for 4 years until we'd saved up enough to be able to move in together. We just celebrated our first wedding anniversary. So....

    It's possible, but it really sucks. A lot. Almost all the time. And both of you have to be totally willing to deal with that. And you have to be pretty damn committed to each other. And communicate often and well. And have an end plan. And have plans for visits. And and and and and.

    It's damn hard to make it work and definitely not something you want to get involved with just because you're having a hard time meeting people locally.

    It was amusing to have Massachusetts as part of our country, but now, of course, like so much of the coastal nation, it no longer qualifies as America.
  • FFFF Once Upon a Time In OaklandRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    seasleepy wrote: »
    I met my husband online, and we were about a thousand miles away from each other for 4 years until we'd saved up enough to be able to move in together. We just celebrated our first wedding anniversary. So....

    It's possible, but it really sucks. A lot. Almost all the time. And both of you have to be totally willing to deal with that. And you have to be pretty damn committed to each other. And communicate often and well. And have an end plan. And have plans for visits. And and and and and.

    It's damn hard to make it work and definitely not something you want to get involved with just because you're having a hard time meeting people locally.

    See bolded.

    One of the biggest reasons my relationship worked out, and still has, is because we were/are both very patient with each other.

    For example, say you're dating someone who lives down the street. You get into a big fight and neither of you feel like talking to the other for a few days. You'll run into each other randomly or one of you will suck it up and go apologize in person.

    Ok, now. Be 2000 miles apart. You get into an argument. If one or both of you don't feel like being contacted, THAT'S IT. There is no randomly running into the other person, or (probably) no showing up to talk things out in person. Being patient is very important.

    Nothing to see here. move along...
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    Fallout wrote: »
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    No.
    No.

    :P

    Honestly, if people can cope with being single for months at a time, they can cope with being in long distant relationships. It all boils down to whether or not they want to, but just saying 'no' is unhelpful and inaccurate.

    That's the thing though, if that thing you said. Yes, you did it and I for one am very happy for both of you. But most people who ask about internet-relationships are asking about them explicitly because they don't meet the condition in your post, and on top of that in 99% of occurrences moving somewhere far away for a girl/boy ends up having been a terrible choice in hindsight. When you move (have you moved? I can't remember, my e-stalking databases haven't been updated in forever), you will be able to go somewhere if something were to go horribly wrong (not that I think it will). There are people around you could go to without having to get on a plane. Stuff like that will get overlooked when someone enters into an internet relationship without meeting your "if".

    Beyond that it's generally a mistake to commit too much of yourself to a relationship with someone you haven't hung out with in person. If you're going to e-date, you need to go on some real-dates with this person before you let your emotions get nuts. All of this worked out for you, but that's not really the norm. A healthy sense of skepticism is required.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'd advise against it, and I have some experience with the medium.

    But then, I was young and dumb and went against all advice in my time and I really expect no less from any other young pup. But, if you're the advice taking type- just don't do it man. It's not worth it.

    "The welfare of each of us is dependent fundamentally upon the welfare of all of us."
    Spoiler:
    -Theodore Roosevelt
  • HypatiaHypatia Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm going to buck the trend and agree with VT.

    Yes, they can work.

    As people have said though it takes a lot of work and both people need to be serious about it. Both people also need to enter it with the understanding that it's going to really suck some of the time and there needs to be a lot of communication and honesty.

    My bf and I met online with a 1000 mile distance. We stayed together for 5.5 years in a long distance relationship and saw each other in person between 1-4 times a year. Now we've been living together for almost 3 years and it's all worked out fine.

    That being said, I wouldn't recommend it if you can avoid it. If you have someone specific already in mind and you're both just looking for reassurance that it can be done then that's great, go for it, it can work out. If your relationship can survive long distance for a prolonged period of time, it can probably survive just about anything.

    If, on the other hand, you're just reaching a point of desperation and want to expand your search to online, well, don't rule anyone out because of it but keep looking in person because in the end it requires a lot less energy and commitment to vet people and feel them out (in person).

  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    seasleepy wrote: »
    I met my husband online, and we were about a thousand miles away from each other for 4 years until we'd saved up enough to be able to move in together. We just celebrated our first wedding anniversary. So....

    It's possible, but it really sucks. A lot. Almost all the time. And both of you have to be totally willing to deal with that. And you have to be pretty damn committed to each other. And communicate often and well. And have an end plan. And have plans for visits. And and and and and.

    It's damn hard to make it work and definitely not something you want to get involved with just because you're having a hard time meeting people locally.

    To be honest ever since I've made my first post I realised that the OP was asking for the wrong advice as it sounds like he isn't in want, but just wants one.

    You shouldn't really be saying to yourself, I haven't picked up in my home town, I shall start seeing what my options are in Germany. Instead you should just keep an open mind and look for people everywhere. If you start searching specifically for a girlfriend on the internet you are going to come off as the creepy dude from the internet much like if you started specifically trying to pick up at a bar you would reek of desperation.

  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Derrick wrote: »
    I'd advise against it, and I have some experience with the medium.

    But then, I was young and dumb and went against all advice in my time and I really expect no less from any other young pup. But, if you're the advice taking type- just don't do it man. It's not worth it.

    As I am getting a little sick of everyone just saying "No because I had a bad experience." I am going to pick on you as a general example (sorry!).

    May I ask how many relationships you have had in real life? And how many of those are you still with the person in question? I am guessing at most it's one! (or maybe if you are a bit of a dick it's two) Because you are no longer in a relationship with this person seems a little ridiculous to paint all long distance relationships as a bad idea.

  • VThornheartVThornheart Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Blake has a good point. I think the biggest thing to remember is that you only have to get it right once. =)

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Janson wrote: »
    Fallout wrote: »
    PROX wrote: »
    Is it possible to be in relationship where you would only see each other, like be physically next to each other only a few times a year?

    No.
    No.

    :P

    Honestly, if people can cope with being single for months at a time, they can cope with being in long distant relationships. It all boils down to whether or not they want to, but just saying 'no' is unhelpful and inaccurate.

    Long-distance is perfectly easy. So long as the person you're distancing with really is just the best person you've ever met. My girlfriend and I are each so substantially better than the common folk that really we don't have any choice but to be with each other.

    In seriousness, I like my girlfriend more than any other person I know. I prefer hanging out with her, I think she's better looking, I think she's more fun to talk to, I think she's just generally excellent. This means that I'm willing to not jump another girl's bones because I don't think any other girl is worth losing the lovely lady who spends time on me now.

    But I'd also rather be near her than any other thing. And it's terrible that I don't get to be around her more often.

    It would suck unimaginably to have no extended stays with each other at least semi-regularly. We each get 3 months in summer, usually see each other for a long weekend in October, come home for a couple weeks in December for Christmas, then stay up here for the first week of winter semester, then I go visit her for my spring break...

    Basically, yes you can do a long distance relationship, but it's a big negative that you have to spend a lot of time and effort accounting for. I would basically say to only do it if you really really are certain you dig someone more than any lady within walking distance. Bus tickets alone have put me out somewhere around 3 computers worth of cash.

    And for the record, this is year 4 of the relationship, year 3 of long-distance. Hopefully next year I'll move to Boston for grad and this crap will be over.

  • KanedaxKanedax Registered User
    edited November 2008
    PROX wrote: »
    Thread title!
    I'm wondering if starting a relationship online works out? I've heard mostly no and some hell nos.

    I met my ex online and it was a relationship for a long time where we saw each other maybe once or twice a year. Anyway, met her at 13 and we started off as friends within a year we had a long distance thing going but it was more of just having someone to talk to.

    Around 16 we started getting serious and I flew up to stay at her house for a weekend, throughout the next couple of years we saw each other on Christmas and summer vacations usually for a week or two at a time I'd stay at her parents house or she'd stay at mine. Then in my first semester of college she and I moved into an apartment together and were there for about a year before she had to move back in with here parents for financial reasons. We didn't last long past that, still good friends though and I WILL get her back some day, even if its the last thing I do. MWA HA HA HA HA!

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  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Pretty much they'll only last long enough for one of you to move. They won't last indefinitely. That would be pretty pathetic.

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