America: Freedom to Facism

_J_

LordFu wrote:

Aaron Russo is able to look at the very serious issues facing our nation with objectivity, as a concerned citizen.

LordFu wrote:

Mr. Russo connects the dots from the formation of the Federal Reserve in 1913 to the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. and REAL ID acts of this century, all the while painting a vivid and frightening picture of who the true enemies of Freedom are.

Objectively painting a vivid and frightening picture? I'm pretty sure that's not what "objectively" means.

ED!

The base premise that you dont have to pay income taxes. . .whew. Someone needs to do a little more research.

moniker

ED! wrote:

The base premise that you dont have to pay income taxes. . .whew. Someone needs to do a little more research.

Reading the Constitution would be a good place to start.

peterdevore

I think it's a really good documentary.

It starts out with the premise that there is no law that makes you pay income tax in America, since that is what the supreme court has been saying in a number of cases.

This gives the filmmaker a break into the viewer being suspicious about what the government tells you about the law, and that the supreme court and constitution have the last say about the law in America, as they should.

The documentary then carefully slides over to the more poignant issues that plaugue American lawmaking today, the Patriot act and the various orders the president gave that severely erode freedom. It ends with a call for civil disobedience and rejection of things like the Real ID coming next year.

The best thing about it are all the quotes from famous people, really influential people calling for a new world order and severe actions against freedom. I sometimes came across those, but this is the first time I've seen them all in one place in good context.

Seriously, see this movie. And refute it, since I'm not American and have no idea what I'm talking about.

moniker

peterdevore wrote:

I think it's a really good documentary.

It starts out with the premise that there is no law that makes you pay income tax in America, since that is what the supreme court has been saying in a number of cases.

What cases are they/what year were they decided, because

16th Ammendment to the United States Constitution wrote:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

basically refutes the entire premise of the movie. And I'm not a big fan of bait and switch. Especially in documentaries that are claiming to be objective.

MrMister

Yeah, income tax.

They passed an amendment specifically to allow it. As in, it was actually illegal, then the country went through a whole process with the express purpose of making it legal.

_J_

moniker wrote:

peterdevore wrote:

I think it's a really good documentary.

It starts out with the premise that there is no law that makes you pay income tax in America, since that is what the supreme court has been saying in a number of cases.

What cases are they/what year were they decided, because

16th Ammendment to the United States Constitution wrote:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

basically refutes the entire premise of the movie. And I'm not a big fan of bait and switch. Especially in documentaries that are claiming to be objective.

Well, geeze, if you're going to use facts and historical evidence to find fault with the documentary of course it will reflect poorly on the documentary. You're not supposed to be an informed citizen when you watch it.

DUH!

ElJeffe

MrMister wrote:

Yeah, income tax.

They passed an amendment specifically to allow it. As in, it was actually illegal, then the country went through a whole process with the express purpose of making it legal.

Psh, semantics.

Irond Will

ElJeffe wrote:

MrMister wrote:

Yeah, income tax.

They passed an amendment specifically to allow it. As in, it was actually illegal, then the country went through a whole process with the express purpose of making it legal.

Psh, semantics.

They really lobbed that one over the plate, didn't they?

ED!

From discussions on the web, it seems like people constantly point to the use of the term "voluntary" in regards to income tax forms, to which the IRS has repeatedly said that the act itself of you determining how much you pay owe is voluntary, not actually filing.

I know theres a whole page on it on the IRS's website, but I cant find it.

As for eroding freedom, and this country being a facist state - I'd ask, compared to what. . .I mean if GERMANY and ITALY had this kind of facism in their day, you can only wonder how WWII would have turned out.

Jinnigan

In America, there is a tendency (maybe it's just these forums) to view Europe as some kind of Liberal Paradise Utopia.

But is the average American citizen much less informed than the Average European (assuming equal socio-economic status)?

Fencingsax

Jinnigan wrote:

In America, there is a tendency (maybe it's just these forums) to view Europe as some kind of Liberal Paradise Utopia.

But is the average American citizen much less informed than the Average European (assuming equal socio-economic status)?

Yes. The Average American may not be informed about the Average European, either.

_J_

Jinnigan wrote:

In America, there is a tendency (maybe it's just these forums) to view Europe as some kind of Liberal Paradise Utopia.

But is the average American citizen much less informed than the Average European (assuming equal socio-economic status)?

I'd say dumbass americans and dumbass europeans are equally uninformed.

Anarchy Rules!

Concerning income tax, I like the idea that the tax in England was set up to fund a war with Napoleon, but the tax was never removed. :?

ED!

_J_ wrote:

Jinnigan wrote:

In America, there is a tendency (maybe it's just these forums) to view Europe as some kind of Liberal Paradise Utopia.

But is the average American citizen much less informed than the Average European (assuming equal socio-economic status)?

I'd say dumbass americans and dumbass europeans are equally uninformed.

Being a dumbass and being uninformed though dont always go hand-in-hand. I know a lot of smart folks, who for whatever reason, just arent concerned with what goes on beyond themselves on a local level.

DisruptorX2

Anarchy Rules! wrote:

Concerning income tax, I like the idea that the tax in England was set up to fund a war with Napoleon, but the tax was never removed. :?

Our current one is paying for world war 1, I believe.

Anyhow, to be a fascist state, we would have to have a government that actively bullies political opponents, has gangs of thugs beat them up, and/or has them killed.

moniker

ED! wrote:

As for eroding freedom, and this country being a facist state - I'd ask, compared to what. . .I mean if GERMANY and ITALY had this kind of facism in their day, you can only wonder how WWII would have turned out.

Compare it to ourselves not too long ago. Japanese Internment, HUAC, COINTELPRO, etc. Oh yeah we've really slid down the freedometer. How will we ever manage to shake these tragic bonds.

mcc

Well it's a good thing that someone can move past partisan and politically motivated thinking and realize that the real problems with America are income tax and the Federal Reserve

Jinnigan

moniker wrote:

ED! wrote:

As for eroding freedom, and this country being a facist state - I'd ask, compared to what. . .I mean if GERMANY and ITALY had this kind of facism in their day, you can only wonder how WWII would have turned out.

Compare it to ourselves not too long ago. Japanese Internment, HUAC, COINTELPRO, etc. Oh yeah we've really slid down the freedometer. How will we ever manage to shake these tragic bonds.

The question that is interesting to ask is not if we've shaken off the obvious symptoms of fascism, but if we're building subtle ones. Poor education goes hand-in-hand with a lack of knowledge, obviously, and then that leads to apathy, whether it be about the government or evolution or Marcus Garvey. And, of course, almost everything the Bush administration has done - No Child Left Behind, the growth of ignorant patriotism (see: O'Reilly), and more.

I don't believe that America is a truly fascist state as of yet. But I do think the groundwork has or is being laid, and I'm curious as to what you guys think.

LiveWire

moniker wrote:

ED! wrote:

As for eroding freedom, and this country being a facist state - I'd ask, compared to what. . .I mean if GERMANY and ITALY had this kind of facism in their day, you can only wonder how WWII would have turned out.

Compare it to ourselves not too long ago. Japanese Internment, HUAC, COINTELPRO, etc. Oh yeah we've really slid down the freedometer. How will we ever manage to shake these tragic bonds.

Srsly. And don't forget all the civil liberties Lincoln suspended in his time. It is important to be concerned with what our government is doing now, but saying we've gone from "freedom to facism" is demonstrable of one allowing themself become overexcited at the expense of reality.

And its nothing small either that 50 years ago women and blacks didn't have the same civil liberies as the rest of america, as they do now. Or that we give more in terms of welfare to the struggling lower-classes than ever, even in the great depression. The graph of course will spike up and down a little, but the overall trend is that of moving away further away from facism, and it bothers me slightly to observe people trying to paint a "vivid and frightening" picture of how "our real enemy" is not the facists who would obliterate the entire west if we let them, but the politicians you elected democratically who want you to prove your identification at the airport. Please.

DisruptorX2

Jinnigan wrote:

I don't believe that America is a truly fascist state as of yet. But I do think the groundwork has or is being laid, and I'm curious as to what you guys think.

We are not even close to a fascist state. All the stuff the government is trying to do, other countries that wouldn't be considered "fascist" do. "Fascist " refers to a very specific kind of government, which the USA does not resemble at all.

Now, you could argue we are sliding towards an authoritarian goverment, and I'd agree that its a worrying trend. Saying we are becoming a "fascist" country is just hyperbole, though.

moniker

Jinnigan wrote:

moniker wrote:

ED! wrote:

As for eroding freedom, and this country being a facist state - I'd ask, compared to what. . .I mean if GERMANY and ITALY had this kind of facism in their day, you can only wonder how WWII would have turned out.

Compare it to ourselves not too long ago. Japanese Internment, HUAC, COINTELPRO, etc. Oh yeah we've really slid down the freedometer. How will we ever manage to shake these tragic bonds.

The question that is interesting to ask is not if we've shaken off the obvious symptoms of fascism, but if we're building subtle ones. Poor education goes hand-in-hand with a lack of knowledge, obviously, and then that leads to apathy, whether it be about the government or evolution or Marcus Garvey. And, of course, almost everything the Bush administration has done - No Child Left Behind, the growth of ignorant patriotism (see: O'Reilly), and more.

I don't believe that America is a truly fascist state as of yet. But I do think the groundwork has or is being laid, and I'm curious as to what you guys think.

The country has always been fairly apathetic towards the electoral process, though. The jingoism still seems to be a lingering affect of the rally 'round the flag effect that 9-11 prompted. I'd agree that our education system is woefully inadequate for this day and age but it is actively being promoted and not pushed to toe a government line/revisionist history to show the glory of our great state and it's dear leaders. The idea of elected officials serving their constituents opinion is being promoted for some perverse reason; and you can't lead when you're following. This is the major problem we have; a lack of political leadership and will.

@ LiveWire: Lincoln was President over a period of open national rebellion so he gets a pass.

ED!

The problem with these facists arguments, is that they point to forms of government control to make their case, without actually looking at the basis for such legilastion or movement in domestic policy. REAL ID for example. Do we need it and will it make us any safer? Debateable and well actually have to see how it works in practice. But taken into context with the Patriot Act and the neccesity to streamline information access, a real case COULD be made for its use (and yes there are pros to a national id). The arguments start breaking down because we use rhetoric in place of actual criticism to describe the government bodies behind the decision making. We read 1984 and label any government action as "Big Brother" looking down on you, and use that to color the dialogue.

As someone said, the US is FAR from a facist state; not even close. Media STILL have freedom to report, and it regularly does. The blogosphere is alive, well and still acting as the watchdog for the three branches of government. "Pride" is encouraged, but hardly mandatory for someone to be successful in this country, and in fact many make careers on challenging the traditional notions of "patriotism".

I would buy the whole argument of facism, IF there didnt exist a method by which to combat that - voting. No matter how much control the Bush Admin wants, it is checked by the fact that every American has the ability to vote into office the people they want to provide the check on this administration. The sad thing is, that a great majority of those complaining, wont actually use the single greatest weapon they have.

Jinnigan

Someone tell me about the blogosphere.

It seems very mystical and hand-wavey to me.

How effective is it? What big things has it accomplished? What is it?

ege02

---

No matter how much control the Bush Admin wants, it is checked by the fact that every American has the ability to vote into office the people they want to provide the check on this administration.

---

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elections in a row and get away with it.

As for your "blogosphere" argument, you heard of them trying to get Internet under control, no? I'm talking about the whole net neutrality debate.

I agree with the rest of the stuff you said.

ED!

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elections in a row and get away with it.

Im not even going to touch this one, because itll involve arguing in circles and thats no fun.

As for your "blogosphere" argument, you heard of them trying to get Internet under control, no? I'm talking about the whole net neutrality debate.

As far as I understand Net Neutrality, even if its passed it still wouldnt prevent someone from actually posting information on the web. Nothing stops a person from setting up a website using free internet (such as folks downtown in San Fran) to report on the issue. This of course assumes that individual companies would even march in line to what the administration (whichever admin is in office) wants.

Yar

ege02 wrote:

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elections in a row and get away with it.

Phew, it's a good thing they can't, then.

Phoenix-D

Yar wrote:

ege02 wrote:

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elections in a row and get away with it.

Phew, it's a good thing they can't, then.

The voting software used in south Florida has a glitch. A good percent of the time, you'll select one canidate and it'll actually register a vote for a different one.

I'd be less concered about that except that in every example I've seen, the glitch selects a Republican canidate..

ege02

The "glitch" not only selects a republican candidate, the vote in question 90% of the time belongs to a black voter.

---

ed! wrote: As far as I understand Net Neutrality, even if its passed it still wouldnt prevent someone from actually posting information on the web. Nothing stops a person from setting up a website using free internet (such as folks downtown in San Fran) to report on the issue. This of course assumes that individual companies would even march in line to what the administration (whichever admin is in office) wants.

---

Right, but it wouldn't get equal treatment. If you don't pay enough to the "right people," so to speak, they can make it so that your website is harder to reach and gets less traffic. You can see how this can be very convinient for an authoritarian leadership, no?

Shinto

*Yawn*

ElJeffe

ege02 wrote:

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elec...

NO.

Not here. Start your own damned thread.

Ranx

You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm glad I'm Canadian.

ege02

---

NO.

Not here. Start your own damned thread.

---

It's very related to this particular topic, so I don't see why I should.

I'm not gonna push it, however. If you don't wanna discuss it, let's not.

Fencingsax

Xorexnar wrote:

You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm glad I'm Canadian.

It's your gift, but also our curse?

Shinto

Fencingsax wrote:

Xorexnar wrote:

You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm glad I'm Canadian.

It's your gift, but also our curse?

Fencingsax

Shinto wrote:

Fencingsax wrote:

Xorexnar wrote:

You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm glad I'm Canadian.

It's your gift, but also our curse?

I meant to type "your curse", but I figured it's funnier this way.

mcc

ElJeffe wrote:

ege02 wrote:

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elec...

NO.

Not here. Start your own damned thread.

Wait

Are you suggesting that if this gets on a discussion of election-stealing, then this horrible stillbirth of a thread will be locked?

Is this meant to dissuade or encourage discussion about election-stealing?

entropykid

Freedom to Fascism is one of the best documentaries of the year,
next to:

Iraq for Sale
(new brave new films/robert greenwald movie)

TerrorStorm:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=786048453686176230&q=terrorstorm

and 9/11 Press For Truth:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250&q=press+for+truth

Gorak

I'm addicted to conspiracy theory videos so I eventually caved in and started to watch this.

The whole point of this documentary is that the 16th ammendment doesn't confer any new rights to tax and that the income tax is therefore unconstitutional.I'm not a constitutional lawyer and don't claim to know anything about this, but one thing that did strike me was the handful of ex-IRS employees who don't file income tax.

Have these guys been prosecuted since this was released? Is there anyone who knows tax law who has got 10-20 mins to spare to look at the start of this film?

LondonBridge

ege02 wrote:

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elections in a row and get away with it.

Your posts kill more brain cells than sniffing model glue.

Rust

LondonBridge wrote:

ege02 wrote:

Not when the administration in question can steal not one, but two elections in a row and get away with it.

Your posts kill more brain cells than sniffing model glue.

You ain't much better, Horatio.