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Shotguns!

King KongKing Kong Registered User regular
edited November 2008 in Help / Advice Forum
So I'm looking to purchase my first shotgun. I am familiar with other firearms (SKS, AK and various handguns) and currently own the SKS. What I'm looking for is something for home defense (primary reason for the shotgun) as well as something I can go shoot at clays at my buddies house. It would be used by myself (a large ogre of a man) but if the time came my woman would need to be able to handle hitting something with it. My other idea was I do not want to spend an assload of money. This would be my first one and am not looking to break the bank, something I could maybe pick up at a Wal-Mart might be best and maybe get something better later on.

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Posts

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Since you want something cheap-ish, that pretty much rules out semi-autos. You really can't go wrong with a Remington, a Mossberg or a Winchester.

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  • GrimmGrimm Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I suggest a Remington 870 12 gauge pump

    Pretty good all around shotgun. I play trap with mine all the time.

  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Second the 870. There's a reason it's the standard shotgun for military and law enforcement. Very solid and reliable. It's the Beretta M9 or Colt 1911 of shotguns.

  • Tucanwarrior13Tucanwarrior13 Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Third the 870

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    A friend of mine has a Mossberg 500 Persuader. He bought it primarily for home defense. I know he's taken it to shoot clays, though I can't tell you much else.

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  • MegoDrDoomMegoDrDoom Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'd get a Mossberg 590. Thats what I've been looking to buy (personal lack of monies prevents this)

    8 in the tube plus 1 in the chamber and you can mount a fucking bayonet on the thing. Whats the purpose of mounting a bayonet on to your shotgun you ask? I don't know... but I like it.

    edit: Gunbroker usually has a few in the $300-$500 range.

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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    MegoDrDoom wrote: »
    I'd get a Mossberg 590. Thats what I've been looking to buy (personal lack of monies prevents this)

    8 in the tube plus 1 in the chamber and you can mount a fucking bayonet on the thing. Whats the purpose of mounting a bayonet on to your shotgun you ask? I don't know... but I like it.

    edit: Gunbroker usually has a few in the $300-$500 range.

    You made me look up the difference.

    The model 500 HS410, or "Home Security" model, is only available in .410, and is specifically designed for defensive use. It comes with a youth sized stock, a vertical foregrip with, in some versions, a built in laser sight, and a special muzzle brake and spreader choke on an 18.5 inch (47 cm) bead sight barrel. The .410, while by far the least powerful common shotgun chambering, still generates energy in excess of a .357 Magnum, and the spreader choke produces wider patterns, as well as less chance of wall penetration, in the short ranges to be expected in a defensive situation. This model is targeted at the novice user, who needs a simple, easy to use yet effective defensive weapon, and is packaged with an introductory video covering use and safety.

    Special purpose models

    Special purpose models are intended for use for self defense, police, or military use. The Model 590 and the eight shot Model 500s are only sold as special purpose models. Special purpose models have short barrels, either 18.5 inches for the six shot models, or 20 inches for the eight and nine shot models.

    Special purpose models may be equipped with a standard shoulder stock, a "Speedfeed" stock that holds 4 additional rounds of ammunition, or a pistol grip stock. Special purpose models come with plain barrels (no vent rib) with bead sights or ghost ring sights. Some bead sighted models may include heat shields.

    It should be noted that "Special Purpose" models are not the same as "Law Enforcement" models; the latter have heavier duty barrels, safeties, and trigger guards, and will stand up to harder use.

    Law Enforcement Models

    Mossberg shotguns designated "law enforcement models" are 590A1s. 590A1s differ from other 500/590 shotguns, in that they have heavy barrels, metal trigger guards, and metal safeties. 590A1s are available in 14", 18.5", and 20" barrels. The 590A1 is also used by the U.S. and allied armed forces, having been designed to meet the stricter standards outlined by the U.S. Army.

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  • DJ-99DJ-99 Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Wouldn't a 12 gauge have a little too much kick for a woman? I think a 20 might be more comfortable, and would certainly be functional for what you want to do with it.

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If a person is taught to shoot properly, 12 gauge recoil is manageable for almost anyone.

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  • ViscountalphaViscountalpha Registered User
    edited November 2008
    If a person is taught to shoot properly, 12 gauge recoil is manageable for almost anyone.

    The shell you are using makes a fairly big difference too. Double 00 buck can put a nasty bruise on someone. It should be manageable for most people though.

    I will third mossberg. I enjoy borrowing my dads shotgun when we go out plinking. I really should get one of my own.. hmm.

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  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited November 2008
    DJ-99 wrote: »
    Wouldn't a 12 gauge have a little too much kick for a woman? I think a 20 might be more comfortable, and would certainly be functional for what you want to do with it.

    If it's used primarily for home protection then he's really going to want the 12-gauge. If she's planning on shooting skeet then you can always load it with lighter rounds and the kick should be pretty negligible.



    I see a lot of suggestions for the Remington 870. That's a damn fine and reliable pump-action shotgun. Definitely give it a look.

    Also, have a look at the Mossberg 500. Mossberg makes a nice line of interchangeable barrels and a slew of modifications to really customize their shotguns. You could buy a Mossberg 500 with a standard 18" barrel for home defense, and then swap it out down the line for a 28" barrel with an improved choke if you want to go out and shoot skeet, and all it takes is a turn of a screw.

    Mossberg also makes barrels for Remington that are usually a little cheaper than the proprietary models.

    If you're looking for cheap cheap then there is the Maverick 88 by Mossberg which comes in somewhere between $100-160 and is essentially the exact same as the mossberg save for the placement of the safety and one other thing that slips my mind. I've had one of those for years and a mossberg and neither have let me down.

    I tend to keep the maverick around with the shorter barrel as my hiking/bear defense gun, and the mossberg as my duck hunting shotgun.

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Really, Mossberg, Winchester and Remington all make fine pump shotguns. Try them out, or at least handle them at a gunstore. A person working the sporting goods section at Wally World is probably completely ignorant or at best indifferent. Go to a gun store if at all possible.

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  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    God damn a 12 gauge for home defense? What are you defending against? Super Mutants?

    20 gauge is perfect for home defense.

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  • supabeastsupabeast Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If a person is taught to shoot properly, 12 gauge recoil is manageable for almost anyone.

    Managing recoil on a range is one thing. Managing recoil in your bathrobe at four am is a little different. And if you live in a state where you might get prosecuted for killing an invader, a 12 gauge is very bad idea.

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Honestly, a 20 gauge is probably plenty for home defense and sporting clays. I used a 20 gauge on clay pigeons for years rather successfully. A 12 gauge does put a lot more shot in the air with more velocity though, for better or worse.

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  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    God damn a 12 gauge for home defense? What are you defending against? Super Mutants?

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  • RhinoRhino Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'll put in another vote for Remington 870

    Couple options here. You could get a 12 gauge tactical

    I don't think this the best because a) it's fairly expensive and b) 12 gauge like others said is pretty beefy, specially if you consider it be shot at 9 feet or less c) harder to control d) your going to fuck things up if you miss. If you use slugs (which is probably not a good idea either), you have the chance of blowing though walls.


    Another option, is what I did: Remington 870 20 Gauge Junior Express.

    The reason I did this was:

    20 gauge has less kick and easier to handle.

    Secondly, if you hit an attacker with a 20 gauge it's going to slow him down or stop him.
    It's enough, but not to much - in my opinion.

    With the 2 3/4 shells, they also have less load I believe. My friend creates 'half load' shells - which also I think are ideal. Less kick, less damage.

    The Junior Express is also really small and easy to move around, special in tight spaces.
    With a pistol grip it would be even shorter.

    It's good for females. My girlfriend is a little over 100 pounds and can handle it fairly easy.
    A full 12 gauge is harder for her to handle.

    Third, it's cheap. You can get a new one, top of the line for like $230 at Gander Mountain. Lots cheaper if you know the guy at the local gun store or buy one used.

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  • BoutrosBoutros Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Rhino wrote: »
    Another option, is what I did: Remington 870 20 Gauge Junior Express.

    This was the second gun my dad ever bought me, but I think it is just too small for adults. The stock on mine is really really short. Also, it is lighter than a full-sized gun so it will kick a little harder than an adult sized 20 gauge.

    20 gauge is a fine gun, and will also work well if you ever decided to go duck or pheasant or grouse hunting, but I would want a 12 gauge for geese. And really 12 gauge with 2 3/4" shells that aren't heavily loaded are not that bad on recoil. 3" mags are pretty hard kicking though.

  • FatsFats Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Get the largest shotgun you're comfortable with -- they'll all kill someone (with the exception of .410, avoid that). That said, I don't find 12 gauge to be very punishing (with the exception of some ridiculous 3 and 3.5" slugs), and I think almost anyone can be taught to fire one without hassle. There are excellent reduced-recoil loads out there which soften the blow even more.

    The 870 Junior Express isn't a bad idea, the standard 870 has a pretty long length of pull which might be uncomfortable for your girlfriend. The shorter gun might be uncomfortable for you, however. Definitely handle them in a store before you buy.

  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    DJ-99 wrote: »
    Wouldn't a 12 gauge have a little too much kick for a woman? I think a 20 might be more comfortable, and would certainly be functional for what you want to do with it.

    Reduced recoil loads for 12 gauge bring down the recoil closer to 20 gauge levels. The increased availability of reduced recoil loadings for 12 has cut into demand for the 20 from what I've heard. This has made 20 gauge ammo less common than it was before and therefore more expensive. 20 gauge buckshot is a lot harder to find than for 12.

    Anyway, +1 to all the people suggesting a Remington 870 or Mossberg 5xx. Handle both, it's often the minor differences like location of safety (Remington's is a pain for lefties) and texture of the foreend that sway people one way or the other.

    Since you mentioned clays and HD, you might want to look into picking up another barrel to complement whatever the default barrel was (ie, 18 inch barrel if the gun came with a 26 inch sporting barrel). Then look at choke tubes for the sport barrel.

    Definitely look into a good recoil pad for the gun. No idea about Mossberg, but the default on an 870 leaves much to be desired compared to a full on pad.

    Stockwise, wood is easier to work with if the length of pull needs to be adjusted. In any case, it's easier for someone big to use a shorter stocked shotgun than the other way around.

    Finally, make sure you look at used guns. The 870 receiver clocks about 300,000 rounds before it needs to be replaced from what I've read and getting a Wingmaster for an Express price is not out of the question. I've been told by a clerk at a gun store that they tend to get a lot of used shotguns in after hunting season ends, kind of like how classified sections get more exercise machines a few weeks after New Year as people give up on resolutions to get in shape.

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  • Durandal InfinityDurandal Infinity Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Remington 870 or Mossberg 5xx series, 590a1 is my fav of that, The Remington 870 is probably the best bang for your buck and the most popular shotgun in general, the 1100 is also a fantastic one if you want semi-auto.

    [edit] fuck the recoil pad, pull the bitch in tight =]

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    I have an 870 express magnum. It's in the same price range as the Mossberg 500. Handle both and you'll see why people usually go with the 870. It's pretty heavy, though. That's the biggest tradeoff for the price.

  • Tucanwarrior13Tucanwarrior13 Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Boutros wrote: »
    Rhino wrote: »
    Another option, is what I did: Remington 870 20 Gauge Junior Express.

    This was the second gun my dad ever bought me, but I think it is just too small for adults. The stock on mine is really really short. Also, it is lighter than a full-sized gun so it will kick a little harder than an adult sized 20 gauge.

    20 gauge is a fine gun, and will also work well if you ever decided to go duck or pheasant or grouse hunting, but I would want a 12 gauge for geese. And really 12 gauge with 2 3/4" shells that aren't heavily loaded are not that bad on recoil. 3" mags are pretty hard kicking though.

    I have a Remington 870 20 gauge (adult), and completely love it. I will say it doesn't have the power your 12 gauge does, but it still kills stuff without much trouble. I have brought down two full sized bucks with mine.

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  • fuelishfuelish Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I remember an article from one of the gun mags(the one that had Jeff Cooper on staff) that said the best home defense weapon was a 38 revolver. Easy to point and shoot, not to bad a recoil, always "on", small frame, made a decent size hole, a good choice for when a woman might need to use it.

    For me, an in home shot gun would be something like a Stoeger coach gun. Shortest legal barrel, no choke, only two shots(not great but easy reload). In the confines of a typical house a pump shotgun might be a little big and any 12g would be a handful for a smaller woman.

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If you are using a gun for home defense, make damn sure you identify your target before you pull the trigger. Many people (gun writers, law enforcement, professional shooters who train people) recommend a serious, specially made for this flashlight. The kind that mounts onto your gun. On shotguns, it usually replaces the forward grip area.

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  • TL DRTL DR Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah, one would hope that there would be a class or seminar of some kind, rather than mounting the thing above the bed and hoping that uncle Ted doesn't drop in at an odd hour. Racking the slide and shouting something like "Identify yourself" or "Get on the ground" would be preferable to just aiming for center mass and getting your free crit from attacking from stealth.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    supabeast wrote: »
    If a person is taught to shoot properly, 12 gauge recoil is manageable for almost anyone.

    Managing recoil on a range is one thing. Managing recoil in your bathrobe at four am is a little different. And if you live in a state where you might get prosecuted for killing an invader, a 12 gauge is very bad idea.

    If you live in a state where you might get prosecuted for killing an invader, then odds are you will get prosecuted for shooting one and it will be a pretty fucking serious crime anyway. Even shooting at somebody and missing is generally going to be a felony carrying a hefty prison sentence.

    Unless you're using a BB gun or a paintball gun, if you're shooting somebody you should be perfectly fine with killing them...because it's the extremely likely outcome regardless of what kind of gun or ammunition you're using. If that's something you're not comfortable with, or that the law in your area forbids, then you should instead invest in a baseball bat, taser, pepper spray, or some other less-lethal option that's legal and feasible for you.

    Pulling the trigger on a firearm is always going to be considered a "use of deadly force," regardless of if anybody dies. So if your local law doesn't allow for the use of deadly force in likely home-defense scenarios, you don't buy a gun for that purpose. Period. If it does allow for it, and if you decide that's the route you want to take, you buy a gun that will kill the person. Because if you're in a situation where you're using deadly force to defend yourself, this is exactly what you want to do...anything less only puts you in danger.


    Back to fucking shotguns, I'll join the thread consensus and say if you're looking for a shotgun on the cheap the Remington 870 or the Mossberg 500 are probably your best bets. Handle both, choose, enjoy. Shoot it for a while, figure out what you like and don't like in a shotgun, then that'll help you when you decide to get something a little nicer.

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  • GrimmGrimm Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Another thing to consider when deciding on a gun for home defense, whether it be shotgun or not, what would happen if you missed? I mean in that type of setting, you're pretty much guaranteed to be at close range so your not really going to need that powerful of a load. What i'm trying to say is, if a bullet sticks in your wall, oh well. Go buy some paint and it's as good as new. If the bullet goes through the wall and kills your neighbor's child asleep in their bed, well...

  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yes. Home defense is not something to be joked about. Do it seriously, with thorough research. Check local laws to make sure home defense is legal. (Yes, there are places were the homeowner shoots at an invader and goes to jail with the invader).

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  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA
    edited November 2008
    Grimm wrote: »
    Another thing to consider when deciding on a gun for home defense, whether it be shotgun or not, what would happen if you missed? I mean in that type of setting, you're pretty much guaranteed to be at close range so your not really going to need that powerful of a load. What i'm trying to say is, if a bullet sticks in your wall, oh well. Go buy some paint and it's as good as new. If the bullet goes through the wall and kills your neighbor's child asleep in their bed, well...

    Any bullet moving fast enough to kill a person is going to be capable of penetrating all the way through a residential wall. It would be an unlikely occurrence for the first wall the bullet hit to stop it. This applies to shot as well.

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  • Zombie NirvanaZombie Nirvana Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm going to 5th or 6th an 870 model. Honestly, they should just start calling them shotgun instead of worrying about the whole Remington model number. That way it would be easy when people want to buy their first shotgun.

  • RhinoRhino Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I should point out, yes - my advance assumes the OP has firearm training and is due diligent in his approach and actions.

    never point a firearm at someone/something unless you want that thing dead/destroyed.

    Also another option: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-lethal_rounds.

    Another option would be pepper spray and/or a melee weapon. I would suggest against a tazer if they are ussually one shot. A hand held tazer/stun would work - but that would require you to be up close which could put you in harms way.

    A third option is an active alarm system. Something that has a blaring siren when entered. That should deter common crooks.

    Lastly, a security/monitoring system (camera) would be good 'after the fact' or while you are away. It might also be useful in court in case you did have to use force to defend yourself:

    [not affiliated, just first site I thought of that has good deals on them. newegg or amazon probably has something too]:

    http://www.costco.com/Common/Category.aspx?cat=4802&eCat=BC|79|4802&lang=en-US&whse=BC&topnav=

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  • RhinoRhino Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm going to 5th or 6th an 870 model. Honestly, they should just start calling them shotgun instead of worrying about the whole Remington model number. That way it would be easy when people want to buy their first shotgun.

    The Remington 870 is to shotguns, what the 10/22 ruger is to 22 long rifles.

    93mb4.jpg
  • GrimmGrimm Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Pheezer wrote: »
    Grimm wrote: »
    Another thing to consider when deciding on a gun for home defense, whether it be shotgun or not, what would happen if you missed? I mean in that type of setting, you're pretty much guaranteed to be at close range so your not really going to need that powerful of a load. What i'm trying to say is, if a bullet sticks in your wall, oh well. Go buy some paint and it's as good as new. If the bullet goes through the wall and kills your neighbor's child asleep in their bed, well...

    Any bullet moving fast enough to kill a person is going to be capable of penetrating all the way through a residential wall. It would be an unlikely occurrence for the first wall the bullet hit to stop it. This applies to shot as well.

    Of course any bullet has the possibility of penetrating a wall. I'm just saying you can at least try to avoid this. You don't have to use a cannon to stop someone breaking into your home. Just something powerful enough to incapacitate them. The following is from http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VG1.html
    I know this part of the article is talking about handguns and not shotguns like the OP asked about but im just trying to back up my point.

    One should carry only hollowpoint ammunition in a defensive
    handgun. Hollowpoint ammunition has much better stopping power than full
    metal jacket or round-nose lead, and stopping power is what you need when
    being assaulted. The point is not to wound or kill the adversary: the
    point is to stop him in his tracks and make him cease attacking you.
    "Stopping power" (sometimes called "knock-down power") refers to a
    particular bullet's ability to incapacitate an attacker - the greater
    that ability, the less chance that your attacker will be able to continue
    shooting, stabbing, or beating you after you have shot him. Handguns are
    not death-rays; despite what you see in the movies, the vast majority of
    people shot with handguns survive (over 80%). Handguns are weak compared
    to rifles and shotguns, and thus you want every edge you can get. Great
    ammunition is no more expensive than mediocre ammunition, so carry the
    best. Rifles and shotguns have stopping power to spare; handguns do not.
    Thus you must select your handgun load very carefully, and the detail of
    the handgun ammunition section reflects this.
    Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal
    jacket) ammunition. You may have seen media hype about "killer dum-dum
    bullets" but this is nonsense. Hollowpoint bullets usually expand and
    stop in the human body, and thus the attacker absorbs much more of the
    bullet's kinetic energy than if the bullet had merely zipped through him
    and left two small holes. Hollowpoint ammunition is also safer for all
    parties concerned.
    * You are safer because your attacker is more likely to be
    incapacitated after one or two shots and thus unable to fire back, stab
    you, or whatever. The decreased likelihood of your attacker dying from
    hollowpoint bullets saves you the moral and legal complications and
    expense you will experience from killing a man.
    * Innocent bystanders are safer because hollowpoint bullets are
    less likely to exit the attacker's body and go on to injure anyone else.
    The ricochet danger is also much lower than that of ball ammunition, and
    hollowpoint bullets are less likely to penetrate walls or doors and
    strike uninvolved third parties. Furthermore, if your foe is
    incapacitated quickly he won't be spraying wild bullets around,
    endangering uninvolved third parties.
    * Lastly, your attacker is safer because he is far less likely to
    die from one or two hollowpoint bullets than the five or six round-nose
    slugs you would have had to fire to put him down. Most gunshot deaths
    occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry
    and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker
    shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather
    than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss. If
    you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal
    reasons.

  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA
    edited November 2008
    Yeah but that supports my point exactly. Hollow point has some characteristics that make it less likely to leave a residential home through the wall, but let's be perfectly clear about even that point: A hollow point round needs a significant reduction in speed from a large amount of resistance to break. A sheet of drywall provides nothing. If you hit a wall stud, that would probably do it but that's unlikely at best.

    That's the only way a round moving fast enough to kill is going to stop in a wall, though. And it's in no way applicable to a shotgun, even a 20 gauge. If you miss, you're penetrating whatever's on the other side of that wall.

    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
  • arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    LTL rounds fired from a shotgun aren't really a good option (unless the next shell in the chamber is 00 buck)

    Its still deadly force.

    Im' in florida so Castle Doctrine says id' be fine--but in most states you'd probably be better off with a dead intruder than with an injured intruder.

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  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User
    edited November 2008
    arod_77 wrote: »
    LTL rounds fired from a shotgun aren't really a good option (unless the next shell in the chamber is 00 buck)

    In areas where you don't have the equivalent to the "Castle Doctorine" (lucky fucker) loading rubber as your first shell can be used to your advantage in a self-defense claim. You didn't want to kill him (LTL rubber slug to the chest) but you had no other choice after he didn't flee.

    I wouldn't suggest it for a three-shell shotgun though.

    But other than that, I'm in full agreement - you never, ever "shoot to wound." Leave that for the movies. A dead intruder is better than an injured-but-still-able-to-return-fire-and-now-incredibly-angry intruder.

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  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    Not so, usually. It's just like firing a warning shot into the air. Either you needed to use deadly force then and there (you wouldn't have had time for a warning shot), or you didn't (the warning shot scenario) and the killing was unjustified.

  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Doc wrote: »
    Not so, usually. It's just like firing a warning shot into the air. Either you needed to use deadly force then and there (you wouldn't have had time for a warning shot), or you didn't (the warning shot scenario) and the killing was unjustified.

    Well, you have to remember that in Canada, anyone who so much as thinks about guns is a violent, dangerous criminal on the brink of a shooting spree, much less anyone who owns one, or god forbid has to use it to defend self or other. So anything that gives you a better chance to be painted as the guy who was left with no other option rather than "getting the auto-crit for attacking from stealth" as outlined on the previous page would be a Good Thing.

    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA
    edited November 2008
    No, Doc's point still stands. You shout at them to put their hands in the air and if they do anything but that you open fire, center of mass, with a round meant to kill. If you're still firing warning shots at that point, you're either dead or you're using lethal force unnecessarily. Better to leave them dead, and be able to claim that your hand was forced.

    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
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