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Pirates and Global Warming.

BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
edited November 2008 in Debate and/or Discourse
piratesarecool.jpg

So, today a group of Somalian Pirates stole a large aircraft carrier sized Crude Oil Tanker under Saudi control. The article I was reading says that most deals from these pirates bring in $1+ million on average and the pirates have earned over $30 million in ransoms for persons alone. It is seen as the most lucrative line of work for many people in Somalia and pirate attacks are up ~75% this year.

This stolen tanker is able to carry 2 million barrels of crude at max capacity worth up to an estimated $100 million. However the somalians have no way to unload the oil or refine it, so I guess they are just hitting anything that can move?

So, a few months ago they stole a load of Russian tanks. Now they are stealing crude oil from the Saudis. Who will they piss off next?


I'm just trying to imaging how much more it would've cost the Dubai company to have a crew of say 50 armed guys instead of 25 unarmed regulars. I mean a gigantic sea vessel is basically a large platform floating in the water. To board it you'd need to climb something. If you were climbing up a rope and someone held a gun over the top ledge pointed down at you, I feel like I'd give up climbing.

Burtletoy on
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Posts

  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm not sure I'd want to be in the business of embarrasing the Saudis or the Russians.

    "Adios, mofo" -- TX Gov Rick Perry (R)
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It's all part of The Pattern.

    Someone is behind this, pulling the strings. And I plan to find out who.
    Spoiler:


    Actually, this sounds very interesting. There was an article recently on why pirates like these will drive the cost of video games up, since tankers will have to take longer routes to avoid Somali pirate waters.

  • arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    What the fuck.

    Just shoot them.

    How hard is it to negotiate minimal private security to deal with this?

    glitteratsigcopy.jpg
  • Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm just waiting for the moment when these pirates piss off someone they really shouldn't have, and will get utterly annihilated. It's just a question of time.

    steam_sig.png
  • Darkchampion3dDarkchampion3d Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    I'm just waiting for the moment when these pirates piss off someone they really shouldn't have, and will get utterly annihilated. It's just a question of time.

    Like by stealing russian tanks perhaps?

    Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    wow...

    correct me if im mistaken but does that show global warming is caused by pirates?

    does that mean inflation is caused by ninjas?....


    on a more serious note, the reason they havent been caught is because the ocean is big, they use small fast ships and hide along the coast.

    the best way to stop them would be to start sending in decoy cargo ships that are full of marines.

    blowing a motorboat out of the water with a deck gun might be overkill.

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    I'm just waiting for the moment when these pirates piss off someone they really shouldn't have, and will get utterly annihilated. It's just a question of time.

    The Russians! And the Saudis!

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    arod_77 wrote: »
    What the fuck.

    Just shoot them.

    How hard is it to negotiate minimal private security to deal with this?

    Because there are thousands, if not millions of cargo ships in the ocean every day? And paying people to guard your cargo ship with guns probably costs more than the money you lose when something gets taken over by pirates?

    If having a small militia on every cargo ship plying the oceans was a profitable venture, you better believe companies would do it.

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  • arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    Yes but where arms shipments are concerned it is probably a good idea regardless.

    glitteratsigcopy.jpg
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    wow...

    correct me if im mistaken but does that show global warming is caused by pirates?

    does that mean inflation is caused by ninjas?....

    No, it shows a correlation between global warming and international piracy. Global warming = more drought and famine, which in turn causes more things like piracy.

    I thought that was pretty obvious..

  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    If having a small militia on every cargo ship plying the oceans was a profitable venture, you better believe companies would do it.

    You don't even need guards. Just include a few AK's on the ship. When the cargo ship starts shooting back, I have a feeling most of the pirates would look for an easier target.

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  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I always wondered about this. There must be some reason that they don't have some armed guards on the boat. Money? Doesn't seem like it be that much of an issue. Safety? Could be that they fear the guards themselves maybe are a risk to the ship. Ineffective? I think this is the core of the issue.

    Protecting a boat must be harder than it seems is all I can think of. If it was easy as putting a dozen armed guards on a boat and pull up the ladders so no one can board, I think they would have done it.

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett

    George R. R. Martin is not your bitch. ~ Neil Gaiman
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    arod_77 wrote: »
    What the fuck.

    Just shoot them.

    How hard is it to negotiate minimal private security to deal with this?

    Because there are thousands, if not millions of cargo ships in the ocean every day? And paying people to guard your cargo ship with guns probably costs more than the money you lose when something gets taken over by pirates?

    If having a small militia on every cargo ship plying the oceans was a profitable venture, you better believe companies would do it.

    Maybe.

    How many people drive without insurance? And you better believe that when some of those people get into an accident, it ends up being far more expensive for some than if they had insurance.

    But "it probably won't happen" saves money, if you go without insurance.

    Companies might be operating under similar principles when they transport things overseas.

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    I'm just waiting for the moment when these pirates piss off someone they really shouldn't have, and will get utterly annihilated. It's just a question of time.

    Well apparently stealing Russian weaponry and Saudi oil didn't do it.

    So I guess it's up to the Chinese.

    Come on China! Send some ships down towards Somalia! Do it! You know you want to!

  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    wow...

    correct me if im mistaken but does that show global warming is caused by pirates?

    does that mean inflation is caused by ninjas?....

    No, it shows a correlation between global warming and international piracy. Global warming = more drought and famine, which in turn causes more things like piracy.

    I thought that was pretty obvious..

    it was a joke dude, a joke....

  • ZeroCowZeroCow Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    wow...

    correct me if im mistaken but does that show global warming is caused by pirates?

    does that mean inflation is caused by ninjas?....

    Look up Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    PSN ID - Buckeye_Bert
    Magic Online - Bertro
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    wow...

    correct me if im mistaken but does that show global warming is caused by pirates?

    does that mean inflation is caused by ninjas?....

    No, it shows a correlation between global warming and international piracy. Global warming = more drought and famine, which in turn causes more things like piracy.

    I thought that was pretty obvious..

    And I thought it was a pretty obvious Flying Spaghetti Monster reference that didn't really have any thread relevance, but still kinda did.

  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    wow...

    correct me if im mistaken but does that show global warming is caused by pirates?

    does that mean inflation is caused by ninjas?....

    No, it shows a correlation between global warming and international piracy. Global warming = more drought and famine, which in turn causes more things like piracy.

    I thought that was pretty obvious..

    it was a joke dude, a joke....

    CatLaugh.jpg

  • arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    Either that or the Russians install deadman switches on their shipments and any pirates (and surviving crew) are met with a nasty explosive surprise.

    It appeals to my James Bond sensibilities, if not my pragmatic ones.

    glitteratsigcopy.jpg
  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime "We're ready to believe you..." FireSideWizardRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Spoiler:

    flzthy.png
    This neo-feudalism would be more tolerable if our betters had fancy titles.
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    MagicPrime wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    Hey, Magic, if you haven't bought that TV you were looking at in the Tech subforum, you might want to look again.

  • JamesJames Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I always wondered about this. There must be some reason that they don't have some armed guards on the boat. Money? Doesn't seem like it be that much of an issue. Safety? Could be that they fear the guards themselves maybe are a risk to the ship. Ineffective? I think this is the core of the issue.

    Protecting a boat must be harder than it seems is all I can think of. If it was easy as putting a dozen armed guards on a boat and pull up the ladders so no one can board, I think they would have done it.

    I don't think anyone expected it. This is the largest ship to have ever been attacked (it's three times the size of your average aircraft carrier), and is the farthest attack from shore, so far.

    It's also pretty difficult to defend a ship that large.

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    arod_77 wrote: »
    What the fuck.

    Just shoot them.

    How hard is it to negotiate minimal private security to deal with this?

    Because there are thousands, if not millions of cargo ships in the ocean every day? And paying people to guard your cargo ship with guns probably costs more than the money you lose when something gets taken over by pirates?

    If having a small militia on every cargo ship plying the oceans was a profitable venture, you better believe companies would do it.

    Maybe.

    How many people drive without insurance? And you better believe that when some of those people get into an accident, it ends up being far more expensive for some than if they had insurance.

    But "it probably won't happen" saves money, if you go without insurance.

    Companies might be operating under similar principles when they transport things overseas.

    That may be the case, but the companies measure three things:
    1. Chances of getting knocked over by pirates
    2. Loss if you do get knocked over by pirates
    3. Cost of private security

    They take those factors and balance them out. It's risk-analysis just like in any other business. People make decisions based on instincts or conceptions they have. On this shit, companies make decisions based on numbers.

    Also, take into account the other factors presented here. Cargo ships are huge. Defending them is hard. Hiring soldiers to sit on a base somewhere might not cost that much. Hiring soldiers to chill out on a boat in the middle of nowhere costs significantly more, especially if they are guarding valuable cargo likely to get attacked by gun-wielding pirates.

    steam_sig.png
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    arod_77 wrote: »
    Either that or the Russians install deadman switches on their shipments and any pirates (and surviving crew) are met with a nasty explosive surprise.

    It appeals to my James Bond sensibilities, if not my pragmatic ones.

    I like this.

    Also, simply pulling up the ladders isn't going to do much if the guys in the small boats have RPGs. A few of those will fuck up your whole program.


    Anyway, I can't imagine why they don't at least think about investing in some weapons for the crew...if I had to guess, I'd say probably due to some funky regulations on one side of the route or the other. But if you had even 25% of the crew trained in the use of the weapons, you'd have at least some chance of defending the ship in such a situation.

    More likely, however, is you'll see an increase in the market for insuring these loads against piracy.

  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    If you were climbing up a rope and someone held a gun over the top ledge pointed down at you, I feel like I'd give up climbing.
    And then get shot in the head by a guy on the other boat with a scope. Defending anything can be complicated depending on the variables.

    Like it was said earlier, there are a lot of ships out there that would require a lot of guns and personnel to guard.

    PSN: allenquid
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Quid wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    If you were climbing up a rope and someone held a gun over the top ledge pointed down at you, I feel like I'd give up climbing.
    And then get shot in the head by a guy on the other boat with a scope. Defending anything can be complicated depending on the variables.

    Like it was said earlier, there are a lot of ships out there that would require a lot of guns and personnel to guard.

    How can a guy with a scope thats 100ft (random guess at how high out of the water this tanker is compaired to a small speed boat) lower than your ship ever have a chance of shooting you?

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    If you were climbing up a rope and someone held a gun over the top ledge pointed down at you, I feel like I'd give up climbing.
    And then get shot in the head by a guy on the other boat with a scope. Defending anything can be complicated depending on the variables.

    Like it was said earlier, there are a lot of ships out there that would require a lot of guns and personnel to guard.

    How can a guy with a scope thats 100ft (random guess at how high out of the water this tanker is compaired to a small speed boat) lower than your ship ever have a chance of shooting you?

    He probably doesn't need to. Anybody want to guess what two or three RPGs into the side of a cargo ship would do?

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    mcdermott wrote: »
    arod_77 wrote: »
    Either that or the Russians install deadman switches on their shipments and any pirates (and surviving crew) are met with a nasty explosive surprise.

    It appeals to my James Bond sensibilities, if not my pragmatic ones.

    I like this.

    Also, simply pulling up the ladders isn't going to do much if the guys in the small boats have RPGs. A few of those will fuck up your whole program.


    Anyway, I can't imagine why they don't at least think about investing in some weapons for the crew...if I had to guess, I'd say probably due to some funky regulations on one side of the route or the other. But if you had even 25% of the crew trained in the use of the weapons, you'd have at least some chance of defending the ship in such a situation.

    More likely, however, is you'll see an increase in the market for insuring these loads against piracy.

    It's the same reason why retail stores don't let their employees tackle/restrain shoplifters. It is cheaper to deal with the pirates through negotiation/ransom when it does happen than have your crew get killed in a firefight with the pirates (hello lawsuit), and then have the pirates take the ship anyway.

    steam_sig.png
  • arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    Thats probably how they do it. All they need to do is sink one ship with an RPG and that will give the crews a little pause about calling bluffs

    glitteratsigcopy.jpg
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Spill millions of dollars/barrels of crude oil into the ocean?

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    arod_77 wrote: »
    Thats probably how they do it. All they need to do is sink one ship with an RPG and that will give the crews a little pause about calling bluffs

    Didn't some cruise liner escape these same types of pirates after being hit with a few RPG's? They out ran the speed boat6s in their cruise ship if I remember correctly.

  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    If you were climbing up a rope and someone held a gun over the top ledge pointed down at you, I feel like I'd give up climbing.
    And then get shot in the head by a guy on the other boat with a scope. Defending anything can be complicated depending on the variables.

    Like it was said earlier, there are a lot of ships out there that would require a lot of guns and personnel to guard.

    How can a guy with a scope thats 100ft (random guess at how high out of the water this tanker is compaired to a small speed boat) lower than your ship ever have a chance of shooting you?
    I hear pirates have more than one boat these days.

    Also, what mcdermott said.

    PSN: allenquid
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    arod_77 wrote: »
    Thats probably how they do it. All they need to do is sink one ship with an RPG and that will give the crews a little pause about calling bluffs

    Didn't some cruise liner escape these same types of pirates after being hit with a few RPG's? They out ran the speed boat6s in their cruise ship if I remember correctly.
    It depends entirely on the ship. For instance a lot of U.S. navy ships would be relatively fine since they're built to actually take damage equating to an RPG.

    PSN: allenquid
  • DerLustigeBosniakDerLustigeBosniak Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Well, I guess they can start running convoys.

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  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    arod_77 wrote: »
    Thats probably how they do it. All they need to do is sink one ship with an RPG and that will give the crews a little pause about calling bluffs

    Didn't some cruise liner escape these same types of pirates after being hit with a few RPG's? They out ran the speed boat6s in their cruise ship if I remember correctly.

    This I find hard to believe, but apparently it did happen.

    How does a cruise ship that goes 20mph top-speed outrun pirate speedboats?

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  • arod_77arod_77 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2008
    its a big fucking boat--if it keeps moving and the rpgs and grenades aren't stopping it--they can't board you

    glitteratsigcopy.jpg
  • JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    arod_77 wrote: »
    its a big fucking boat--if it keeps moving and the rpgs and grenades aren't stopping it--they can't board you

    But isn't life an action movie? You can board anything, anytime, regardless of speed.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    arod_77 wrote: »
    Thats probably how they do it. All they need to do is sink one ship with an RPG and that will give the crews a little pause about calling bluffs

    Didn't some cruise liner escape these same types of pirates after being hit with a few RPG's? They out ran the speed boat6s in their cruise ship if I remember correctly.

    This I find hard to believe, but apparently it did happen.

    How does a cruise ship that goes 20mph top-speed outrun pirate speedboats?

    Wow.

    I guess that I overestimated both the destructive power of RPGs (though it sounds like some didn't detonate...they do IIRC require flight time to arm, or could just have been duds) as well as underestimated how badass the crew of the Love Boat may have been.

  • DerLustigeBosniakDerLustigeBosniak Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I thought RPGs left the launcher armed. I'm no army dude so I really have no idea. Just seems like it's possible.

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