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Pirates and Global Warming.

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Posts

  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Nocturne wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Ebz123 wrote: »

    I know if I were African, no sight would be as pleasing as a bunch of white Europeans headed my way in warships. Nothing bad ever happens when European militaries go to Africa.

    What? Are you saying you think this is a bad idea?

    I'm saying it's not going to win over any of the local public opinion that's actually needed to stop the pirates. All the piracy that's going on in Africa was going on in Southeast Asia before, in the Malacca Strait.

    It was greatly reduced not because the West sent in destroyers, but because insurance companies raised the rates of ships passing through the Strait. Loyd's of London declared it a "war zone" and raised rates by 1% of total cargo value. That pissed off businesses, which led to local governments in Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand getting together and purging the corrupt local officals who were allowing safe havens for the pirates, as well as coordinating patrols.
    So the idea is the Somali government should purge it's corrupt officials who are allowing piracy? The fact that the government in Somalia has little to no control over it's own coutry makes this idea ridiculous. The problem isn't corrupt officials. The problem is absolutely powerless officials.

    And neighboring countries.

    The Malacca Strait is between Malaysia and Singapore, but most of the pirates in the area were Indonesian. The Indonesian Navy did not have anywhere near the resources needed to go after the pirates. Malaysia and Singapore didn't just say "Oh, this is Indonesia's problem." They jumped in even though the pirates weren't their nationals. Then Thailand and later India got on board too.

    If Somalia doesn't have the infastructure and resources needed to head off the problem, then Yemen and Oman and Saudi Arabia and Kenya need to step up. People who actually know the area. Money and tech without local knowledge isn't going to get this task force anywhere.

    It's guerilla war, just in the water instead of on land. To win it you need local support. Take the British anti-guerilla campaign in Malaya in 1950. The central British strategy was the Briggs Plan, which called for cutting support for the guerillas from the populace.

    The British forcibly relocated half a million people out of guerilla territory and put them in barricaded villages to prevent the guerillas from drawing on their resources and population. At first the Malays hated it, but the British villages had a better standard of living than the old ones. The British provided money and gave the Malays actual land ownership of the "New Villages," along with building houses, schools, shops, etc.

    The Brits provided tons of food and medical aid to local Malays and indigenous tribes, and actively patrolled into the jungle. They didn't focus their efforts solely on protecting British commercial interests like rubber plantations and escorting convoys. They worked in close conjunction with the locals. The Malay Police Special Forces were actually in charge of joint operations, and civilian councils were actually listened to by military commanders.

    There was a huge propaganda campaign. The Brits dropped about 6 million leaflets a month. They got governments to promise limited amnesty for guerillas who surrendered. Heck, they did such a good job winning over hearts and minds that half the guerillas they captured ended up switching sides and fighting for the British.

    Yes, it was expensive. But it worked. The Brits did better with 30 thousand troops in Malaya than the Americans did with half a million troops in Indochina.

    You need to do all this to fight a guerilla war. The British did not just roll a bunch of tanks into town. And eventually, yes, you do need to rebuild the infastructure. Or help the locals rebuild it themselves.

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Ebz123 wrote: »
    According to this article ships may start carrying armed guards, it doesn't go into detail of how many and where they would be supplied from though. It does however talk about training normal crewmembers ways of shaking off pirates without using force.
    I believe right now crews are supposed to turn their fire hoses on any unwanted boarders . . . which seems like a kind of lame solution.

  • cliffskicliffski Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I thought that sonic weapons were the new defense of choice. Certainly better than hoses. Apparently they make the pirates throw up, which sounds like quite a cool weapon.
    FIRE THE VOMIT GUN!

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    BubbaT wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Nocturne wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »

    Well, yes, a successful gurellia war ending in the creation of a stable government would go extremely far in eliminating this problem. I do not believe for an instant that Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia and Kenya would be willing to foot the bill for it or could even be bothered to try it. Especially not via pressure from businesses.

    Really given the current atmosphere in Somalia I'm not seeing how they could even try to conduct a successful guerilla war. The country is controlled by warlords who can and will kill anyone even suspected of being a threat of any kind.

    The problems Indonesia had are not comparable to the problems currently in Somalia.

    sigtk.jpg
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Bro!Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    cliffski wrote: »
    I thought that sonic weapons were the new defense of choice. Certainly better than hoses. Apparently they make the pirates throw up, which sounds like quite a cool weapon.
    FIRE THE VOMIT GUN!
    Oooh ooh - I remember reading about this. It's a technology which uses ultrasonic emitters to induce sonic vibrations in your skull, so they can focus and target an extremely loud noise at someone without deafening everyone else.

    Apparently like, 1% of the intensity will make you nauseous and is about the worst thing you can imagine happening.

    It's technology is based on this I think.

  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    So, if a brutal strongman takes over and sets shit straight, do we accept that as a better alternative to the rampant piracy?

    Depends on who the strongman is. When the Islamic Courts Union took control of Mogadishu they imposed law, order and security on the city for the first time since the early 90s. I'm not sure what their stance on pirates would be, but they kept all the other warlords and crime bosses in check. Then the US-funded Etheopian force invaded and took (loose) control of the city. Now nobody is in control, and the fighting has been pretty nasty at times.

    The US will never support an Islamic faction. Pretty well anyone else they could install that is US friendly would be ok by them. If history is any indication, this would probably not be a kind sort of strongman. But Somalia has been so messed up for so long nobody can just orchestrate a coup and install who they want. For someone to get power they pretty well have to build the government from the ground up.

    ragesig.jpg

  • yotesyotes Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Just throwing out some links here:

    http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=8398&IBLOCK_ID=35
    http://exiledonline.com/from-the-rhinos-head-to-the-hyenas-belly/
    http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-update-jack-al-sparrow-vs-the-do-gooders/

    I don't know how accurate War Nerd's history lessons are, but they sure entertain me.

    About that "pirate mothership" that was sunk by the Indian navy, turns out, well.. see, there was a Thai fishing boat that disappeared in the region about the same time. It wasn't the motherliest of ships. GJ India.

    Salon/Spiegel article mentions that private security would run $2000++ per bodyguard per day, probably not worth it for most shipping companies.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    yotes wrote: »
    About that "pirate mothership" that was sunk by the Indian navy, turns out, well.. see, there was a Thai fishing boat that disappeared in the region about the same time. It wasn't the motherliest of ships. GJ India.

    People on the Thai ship were shooting at the Indian ship. How were they supposed to react?

    sig-2699.jpg Iosif is friend. Come, visit friend.
  • yotesyotes Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    yotes wrote: »
    About that "pirate mothership" that was sunk by the Indian navy, turns out, well.. see, there was a Thai fishing boat that disappeared in the region about the same time. It wasn't the motherliest of ships. GJ India.

    People on the Thai ship were shooting at the Indian ship. How were they supposed to react?

    Sinking the ship is somewhat defensible, but maybe they shouldn't have admitted that what they shot at was a fishing vessel in distress, not some kind of Anthony-Hopkins-captained Smoker warship out to invade India. I'm pretty sure they searched the wreckage for survivors to take home and try in court afterwards and instead found out they didn't just kill a bunch of pirates.

    edit:

    Also, this is probably why arming the crews of merchant ships might be a bad idea. How can you really tell the difference between a bunch of guys with rifles on a boat from pirates? If confronted by a well-armed warship and asked to identify themselves, they'd say they weren't pirates, but who's going to just take that at face value and go on, "no worries mate, pirates wouldn't lie about it, go on about your business"? The ship would have to be boarded and inspected at a great danger to the navy crew.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Muddy WaterMuddy Water Quiet Batperson Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    yotes wrote: »
    they didn't just kill a bunch of pirates.

    Did you actually read the article you've linked to? There were pirates on the ship. It's unfortunate that some innocent merchants got caught in the crossfire but the point is that the INS Tabar killed a bunch of pirates that opened fire on it. The only mistake the Indian Navy made was thinking that it had destroyed a "mother-ship" when it was an ordinary trawler in the middle of being hijacked.

  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    yotes wrote: »
    they didn't just kill a bunch of pirates.

    Did you actually read the article you've linked to? There were pirates on the ship. It's unfortunate that some innocent merchants got caught in the crossfire but the point is that the INS Tabar killed a bunch of pirates that opened fire on it. The only mistake the Indian Navy made was thinking that it had destroyed a "mother-ship" when it was an ordinary trawler in the middle of being hijacked.

    It wasn't in the process of being hijacked; it had been hijacked earlier that day. The British attempted to intercept the ship when it was being hijacked, but got there too late and told the owners they should wait for the ransom call. That information was reported to the International Maritime Bureau for dissemination, but India and the IMB do not have regular communication.

    sig-2699.jpg Iosif is friend. Come, visit friend.
  • Muddy WaterMuddy Water Quiet Batperson Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Whatever. They killed pirates, not merchants, which is what yotes seems to be implying.

  • yotesyotes Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    They definitely did kill civvies unless the 14 missing fisherdudes (who were tied up inside the ship) miraculously pop up at some point. They won't. Some of the pirates did get away in their teeny weenie speedboats. Hell, most of them probably jumped off the side as soon as the Tabar opened fire.
    And how the ranks had a chance to actually use the damn thing and get on the BBC! A legitimate target! Live video games for everybody! The temptation would have been too much for any red-blooded navy man.
    In hindsight, sure, they could have asked, “Any civilian crew with you pirates over there? Are you an evil alien mother ship or just, y’know, a shrimp boat outta Pattaya?” But hindsight is 20/20, or in this case 57mm.

    Basically.

    I don't think we'll be hearing much more about this, both Thailand and India have some bigger problems at the moment.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Bro!Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7754433.stm

    Pirates get another boat. But surely they can hire security to keep the pirates away? Well it does help if the security guards don't jump overboard when pirates show up.

    And just for amusements sake, the company who was hired to provide security:
    http://apmss.co.uk/

  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7754433.stm

    Pirates get another boat. But surely they can hire security to keep the pirates away? Well it does help if the security guards don't jump overboard when pirates show up.

    And just for amusements sake, the company who was hired to provide security:
    http://apmss.co.uk/

    Honestly maybe crews should just be prepared to abandon ship at the last moment. If the pirates have the boat but no hostages it opens up a host of military options, no more paying the ransoms.

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Dman wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7754433.stm

    Pirates get another boat. But surely they can hire security to keep the pirates away? Well it does help if the security guards don't jump overboard when pirates show up.

    And just for amusements sake, the company who was hired to provide security:
    http://apmss.co.uk/
    Honestly maybe crews should just be prepared to abandon ship at the last moment. If the pirates have the boat but no hostages it opens up a host of military options, no more paying the ransoms.
    An additional class of life boat perhaps. Where regular ones are just meant to bob around and wait for rescue, a ship could also carry something for a speedy get-away.

  • oneeyedjack909oneeyedjack909 Registered User
    edited November 2008
    They had a really cool article in National Geographic about piracy recently. The author actually got to hang out with a few from Southeast Asia and even got to go to one of their, for lack of a better word, pirate practices. I guess its all about stealth and over watch. According to these pirates they have their main boat launch a little raft or something and then the bigger boat watches over them from a distance while they sneek aboard. I guess the crews aren't big enough to watch all the boat all of the time. Anyway by the time the crew realizes theres pirates afoot they're already fucked. Btw the bigger boat that watches over the smaller one normally is doing so with a big ol' belt fed machine gun so yeah, fighting back is a problem.

    Ill try and find the article and post it. I guess modern pirates are pretty bold and cunning just like the old ones.

    "A mans first duty is to his conscience and honor"- Mark Twain

    "Those who are willing to give up essential liberties for a little safety diserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin
  • oneeyedjack909oneeyedjack909 Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Ah here it is

    crafty fuckers use bamboo ladders.

    "A mans first duty is to his conscience and honor"- Mark Twain

    "Those who are willing to give up essential liberties for a little safety diserve neither liberty nor safety"-Benjamin Franklin
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