Leveling up is to develop your character, but when the term "Character development" is used it generally refers to something more specific, that is to say it refers to the definition used in literature.
Character development means that characters need to change. Not by gaining stats, but by actual learning and experience. A coward might learn to overcome his fears, a woman might get over the loss of her son, that sort of thing.
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
You can't do the stuff at level 1, though, which you can in Oblivion.
You also can't do that stuff unless your DM is dumb enough to allow it. That, and the DM can adjust encounters on the fly so they're always as difficult as intended.
So, if you can break the game by building your character in a certain way, Its Not An RPG.
But, if you break the game by building your character a certain way, and someone tells you not to do that, It Is An RPG.
Wow, these rules make so much sense!
Nope, I'm not arguing either way, which shows how much attention you're paying to the discussion. I'm just shooting down your half-cocked assumption that Pun-Pun is somehow a valid build, which you're using to go after another argument.
Pun Pun was an example - They are hundreds of cheesy builds in DnD, none of which make DnD any less of an RPG. Try to learn to read.
What determines something's genre is always arbitrary. The main thingis that there is a general agreement on what determines that something is in X genre is. The widest used definitions at this point is that leveling up or improve your character's skills is a large part of the game.
See, they all contain ROLEPLAYING
That doesn't make them RPGs just like containing action and adventure doesn't make a game an action adventure game or a game where you play as a god like in Okami doesn't make it a god game.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Thank you for leaving Khavall, since you really weren't even arguementative, but just disagreed with shit that we said, ignored said shit, took said shit out of context, and generally acted like an ass.
So, you were basically channeling O'Reiley right there.
I hate this question, because it's a never ending merry-go-round and no one ever agrees on any conclusion. The fact of the matter is, the genre is big. You can't just come up with one definition to define them all. There are numerous sub-genres. Even here we find ourselves prone to splitting up RPGs by region, East and West. It's not an easy question to answer because of that diversity and range.
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I think a lot of the arguments in this thread are centered around the fact that some people are trying to define "RPG" as the genre defines itself, while others are trying to define what an RPG should be.
The way a videogame earns the RPG label is through stats and similar gameplay systems to other games defined as RPGs.
The way they should be is another topic entirely, and I think people are arguing this point in the guise of the first in order to add some ethreal legitimacy to their side.
If I think all RPGs should be a linear story with predefined characters, that isn't any less valid a desire as something that fits the semantics of the name. It's not as if people would stop hating JRPGs if they were called bafmodads.
What about a game like Contact? The story is linear, and your character is predefined. However, you can woo girls or steal stuff, which changes how other people see you. Try to be a pimp, and ALL the girls will be pissed at you. Steal things or attack citizens, and expect to be attacked on sight by NPCs.
Where does that fit? The gameplay is very much in the JRPG camp, but your actions have more of an effect than in many of the titles lauded as "real RPGs."
I don't see how they break any rules, maybe you are imagining things to win an arguement?
See, they all contain ROLEPLAYING, so, unless you ignored what mayday said in favor of some fucking intangible RPGCodex strawman that has nothing to do with reality, then you need to shut the fuck up.
Wow, you're a moron.
Read the fucking thread (including the first post) - "Contains ROLEPLAYING" does not make a game an RPG according to Maydays rules.
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
You can't do the stuff at level 1, though, which you can in Oblivion.
You also can't do that stuff unless your DM is dumb enough to allow it. That, and the DM can adjust encounters on the fly so they're always as difficult as intended.
So, if you can break the game by building your character in a certain way, Its Not An RPG.
But, if you break the game by building your character a certain way, and someone tells you not to do that, It Is An RPG.
Wow, these rules make so much sense!
Nope, I'm not arguing either way, which shows how much attention you're paying to the discussion. I'm just shooting down your half-cocked assumption that Pun-Pun is somehow a valid build, which you're using to go after another argument.
Pun Pun was an example - They are hundreds of cheesy builds in DnD, none of which make DnD any less of an RPG. Try to learn to read.
You can use the rules in a way they were not intended to be used and so make the challenges in a game trivial. This may make the game a poorly thought out RPG, but I fail to see how you abusing the rule makes it not be an RPG. That is somewhat like saying that if I choose to fight my way through every level of Thief that means it is not a stealth game, and if I never fire a bullet in Doom that makes it hack and slash.
Edit: Actually, that is not what you meant at all. Fuck, the arguments going on in that quote thread are way too odd. Comment changed to not be retarded.
I have to say that I disagree with you completely JohnDoe. You are saying that by using the rules in a way they were not intended to be used you can make the challenges in a game trivial. This may make the game a poorly thought out RPG, but I fail to see how you abusing the rule makes it not be an RPG. That is somewhat like saying that if I choose to fight my way through every level of Thief that means it is not a stealth game, and if I never fire a bullet in Doom that makes it hack and slash.
Thats not what I saying at all. Mayday said Oblivion wasn't an RPG because you could level in a way that made the game easy. I gave the example of a cheesy DnD build to show, that by that logic, DnD isn't an RPG (Which is obviously absurd).
Then someone said the cheesy build in DnD would be disallowed by the DM - Implying that somehow that because no-one is there to stop you from being cheesy in Oblivion, its not an RPG, but a DM stopping you from being cheesy in PnP makes that an RPG.
This thread boils down to a religious debate. Seriously.
Me, in this arguement:
Role-Playing:An instance or situation in which one deliberately acts out or assumes a particular character or rol*assholes are assholes, strawman*
Khavall, thank you for leaving the thread.
Me, when religion is argued over:
Version A:You know, a large amount of Catholic schools teach that the bible is filled with metaphors/soiled by human hands, being that they are the church that Jesus allegedly establi*assholes are assholes, strawman*
Version B:No maam, science is not an evil plot by the devil to destroy god, and no, maam, Obama is not the antichrist, because 1:The world's children and faithful have not disappeared, and 2:If he were you would like him, NO MAAM IT'S IN THE BIBLE MAAM.
I have to say that I disagree with you completely JohnDoe. You are saying that by using the rules in a way they were not intended to be used you can make the challenges in a game trivial. This may make the game a poorly thought out RPG, but I fail to see how you abusing the rule makes it not be an RPG. That is somewhat like saying that if I choose to fight my way through every level of Thief that means it is not a stealth game, and if I never fire a bullet in Doom that makes it hack and slash.
Thats not what I saying at all. Mayday said Oblivion wasn't an RPG because you could level in a way that made the game easy. I gave the example of a cheesy DnD build to show, that by that logic, DnD isn't an RPG (Which is obviously absurd).
Then someone said the cheesy build in DnD would be disallowed by the DM - Implying that somehow that because no-one is there to stop you from being cheesy in Oblivion, its not an RPG, but a DM stopping you from being cheesy in PnP makes that an RPG.
Yeah, sorry about that. I realised that just after I posted and tried to repair my post.
I don't see how they break any rules, maybe you are imagining things to win an arguement?
See, they all contain ROLEPLAYING, so, unless you ignored what mayday said in favor of some fucking intangible RPGCodex strawman that has nothing to do with reality, then you need to shut the fuck up.
Wow, you're a moron.
Read the fucking thread (including the first post) - "Contains ROLEPLAYING" does not make a game an RPG according to Maydays rules.
I'm sorry, but something a non-english native said in an offhand remark about Oblivion, and has said he shall reword, does not contradict anything I said previously, no matter how much you want it to.
This thread boils down to a religious debate. Seriously.
Me, in this arguement:
Role-Playing:An instance or situation in which one deliberately acts out or assumes a particular character or rol*assholes are assholes, strawman*
Khavall, thank you for leaving the thread.
Me, when religion is argued over:
Version A:You know, a large amount of Catholic schools teach that the bible is filled with metaphors/soiled by human hands, being that they are the church that Jesus allegedly establi*assholes are assholes, strawman*
Version B:No maam, science is not an evil plot by the devil to destroy god, and no, maam, Obama is not the antichrist, because 1:The world's children and faithful have not disappeared, and 2:If he were you would like him, NO MAAM IT'S IN THE BIBLE MAAM.
Sure, Whatever, I'm leaving.
I wish you would leave. I can't make out this gibberish. I'm sure you thought it was very clever but I've not seen you do anything but attack others with awesome bold formatting!
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
I always thought an RPG was a Rocket Propelled Grenade.
I don't see how they break any rules, maybe you are imagining things to win an arguement?
See, they all contain ROLEPLAYING, so, unless you ignored what mayday said in favor of some fucking intangible RPGCodex strawman that has nothing to do with reality, then you need to shut the fuck up.
Wow, you're a moron.
Read the fucking thread (including the first post) - "Contains ROLEPLAYING" does not make a game an RPG according to Maydays rules.
I'm sorry, but something a non-english native said in an offhand remark about Oblivion, and has said he shall reword, does not contradict anything I said previously, no matter how much you want it to.
So, what to do with all those games that don't fall into the RPG category? Well, when I was a kid we used to call them by various names.
Dungeon crawler (Might and Magic, Dungeon Master)
Action-adventure (Ultima, Witcher?)
Hack and Slash (Diablo, Oblivion, Nethack (I do believe roguelike is a term regarding presentation rather than gameplay)
Hes already knocked off some your examples of "RPGs" in the first post. You couldn't even manage to read the first post!
RPG in video games is a misnomer. The real roleplaying games are tabletop, like D&D. Video game RPGs are games that are reminiscent of tabletop RPGs in gameplay, i.e. based in some part on dice rolling, stats and character progression. Almost all video games contain "roleplaying" so it's meaningless to interpret the phrase literally.
What about the commonly used definition of RPG as involving improving character skills so bad that it should be changed?
Because Call of Duty 4 is not an RPG?
Still not seeing what is so horrible.
Horrible, no.
Incorrect, yes.
Also, it pisses me off when I look for new games that I want to play and see only things that I loathe.
Really, I blame games "journalism", for years they give "THE BEST CRPG TO DATE" 4-6 review scores and then fucking Diablo gets a fucking ten out of ten, and then there are nothing but shitty Diablo clones.
What about the commonly used definition of RPG as involving improving character skills so bad that it should be changed?
Yeah, because stats aren't necessary for playing a role. Defining that role is.
Roleplaying games are about as much as playing roles as film noir is about black, adventure games are about adventure, strategy games are actually about strategy, etc.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
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I disagree; This has nothing to do with screws, nor feces. You know nothing!
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
Character development means that characters need to change. Not by gaining stats, but by actual learning and experience. A coward might learn to overcome his fears, a woman might get over the loss of her son, that sort of thing.
Pun Pun was an example - They are hundreds of cheesy builds in DnD, none of which make DnD any less of an RPG. Try to learn to read.
That doesn't make them RPGs just like containing action and adventure doesn't make a game an action adventure game or a game where you play as a god like in Okami doesn't make it a god game.
But the question is, would anyone like to see what I've got under my Pope robes?
:winky:
So, you were basically channeling O'Reiley right there.
The way a videogame earns the RPG label is through stats and similar gameplay systems to other games defined as RPGs.
The way they should be is another topic entirely, and I think people are arguing this point in the guise of the first in order to add some ethreal legitimacy to their side.
If I think all RPGs should be a linear story with predefined characters, that isn't any less valid a desire as something that fits the semantics of the name. It's not as if people would stop hating JRPGs if they were called bafmodads.
What about a game like Contact? The story is linear, and your character is predefined. However, you can woo girls or steal stuff, which changes how other people see you. Try to be a pimp, and ALL the girls will be pissed at you. Steal things or attack citizens, and expect to be attacked on sight by NPCs.
Where does that fit? The gameplay is very much in the JRPG camp, but your actions have more of an effect than in many of the titles lauded as "real RPGs."
Wow, you're a moron.
Read the fucking thread (including the first post) - "Contains ROLEPLAYING" does not make a game an RPG according to Maydays rules.
You can use the rules in a way they were not intended to be used and so make the challenges in a game trivial. This may make the game a poorly thought out RPG, but I fail to see how you abusing the rule makes it not be an RPG. That is somewhat like saying that if I choose to fight my way through every level of Thief that means it is not a stealth game, and if I never fire a bullet in Doom that makes it hack and slash.
Edit: Actually, that is not what you meant at all. Fuck, the arguments going on in that quote thread are way too odd. Comment changed to not be retarded.
If it uses hit points, HP, or occasionally vitality, it's an RPG.
If the game calls it "health," "stamina," leaves it unnamed, or uses some other vague term, it's not an RPG.
And I'm greatly disturbed by everyone's apathy towards paleoanthropology in this thread.
Thats not what I saying at all. Mayday said Oblivion wasn't an RPG because you could level in a way that made the game easy. I gave the example of a cheesy DnD build to show, that by that logic, DnD isn't an RPG (Which is obviously absurd).
Then someone said the cheesy build in DnD would be disallowed by the DM - Implying that somehow that because no-one is there to stop you from being cheesy in Oblivion, its not an RPG, but a DM stopping you from being cheesy in PnP makes that an RPG.
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:P
Not an RPG. Sorry.
Me, in this arguement:
Role-Playing:An instance or situation in which one deliberately acts out or assumes a particular character or rol*assholes are assholes, strawman*
Khavall, thank you for leaving the thread.
Me, when religion is argued over:
Version A:You know, a large amount of Catholic schools teach that the bible is filled with metaphors/soiled by human hands, being that they are the church that Jesus allegedly establi*assholes are assholes, strawman*
Version B:No maam, science is not an evil plot by the devil to destroy god, and no, maam, Obama is not the antichrist, because 1:The world's children and faithful have not disappeared, and 2:If he were you would like him, NO MAAM IT'S IN THE BIBLE MAAM.
Sure, Whatever, I'm leaving.
Yeah, sorry about that. I realised that just after I posted and tried to repair my post.
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I have decided that Bioshock is a RPG. It is just very very bad at the meaningful choice part.
I'm sorry, but something a non-english native said in an offhand remark about Oblivion, and has said he shall reword, does not contradict anything I said previously, no matter how much you want it to.
Because Call of Duty 4 is not an RPG?
I wish you would leave. I can't make out this gibberish. I'm sure you thought it was very clever but I've not seen you do anything but attack others with awesome bold formatting!
Hurr hurr hurr.
But it has RPG elements.
It is not an RPG because the stats take a backseat to the shooting parts.
Yeah, because stats aren't necessary for playing a role. Defining that role is.
:^:
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
Still not seeing what is so horrible.
This.
Hes already knocked off some your examples of "RPGs" in the first post. You couldn't even manage to read the first post!
"I park on my driveway and drive on the parkway."
So, an RPG would not imply the presence of those elements, but their importance.
Horrible, no.
Incorrect, yes.
Also, it pisses me off when I look for new games that I want to play and see only things that I loathe.
Really, I blame games "journalism", for years they give "THE BEST CRPG TO DATE" 4-6 review scores and then fucking Diablo gets a fucking ten out of ten, and then there are nothing but shitty Diablo clones.
Roleplaying games are about as much as playing roles as film noir is about black, adventure games are about adventure, strategy games are actually about strategy, etc.
Playing the wrong RPGs more like it.