slash you are raining on my parade. T-They had to stop these guys because they didn't have a choice! They didn't want to!
Who, Nintendo had to stop these guys?
Nintendo is protecting their own rights. They could have very well decided not to pursue their own protection of their own IP, and let people infringe, but the choice is up to them - and they chose to protect their own IP.
This is not a similar situation as LBP or Guitar Hero World Tour, where the company provided the tools and hosted the data on their servers. This is a case of people infringing Nintendo's Copyright. And Capcom's (and whoever else). Just because Nintendo provided legitimate software doesn't make them the police force of that software - unless they met many other factors, which, according to what little facts we have, they do not meet. Capcom is the one who must seek protection for Capcom's copyright. It's very unlikely that Nintendo would be found vicariously liable for hackers' infringment of Capcom's copyright.
Dusdais ashamed of this postSLC, UTRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
So...some fans made a mod for a game on a console. Since consoles generally don't have mod communities, this is suddenly IP infringement? Please. If this were someone dropping Dog from HL2 into Crysis we'd have a thread about how awesome it is. Someone would make a dedicated server and we'd all crowd into it and have a good time messing around.
This petty bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves. You don't like people taking the mods and turning them into hacks for online play? That's fine; call up Valve or Microsoft and learn how to make a real online system that doesn't suffer from these kinds of security holes. Make a server-side checksum of the client's characters or something, and boot players off if they're up to no good. Ban them even, if you like. But what is the point of taking legal action against them, besides pissing in you fan's frosted flakes?
Blue Blue, you are woefully under informed for this line of discussion and it's beginning to become irritating.
Oh-ho? So inform me then. You think if someone takes their boobs and puts them in smash brothers it will become M-rated?
Stop asking trollish questions, first and foremost.
No, it wouldn't become M-Rated because as far was we know, there's not a locked bare breast file in Smash's data, like Oblivion. Secondly, Nintendo has an obligation to uphold their company name because someone somewhere would see modded in breasts and blame Nintendo because "they let it happen."
slash you are raining on my parade. T-They had to stop these guys because they didn't have a choice! They didn't want to!
Who, Nintendo had to stop these guys?
Nintendo is protecting their own rights. They could have very well decided not to pursue their own protection of their own IP, and let people infringe, but the choice is up to them - and they chose to protect their own IP.
This is not a similar situation as LBP or Guitar Hero World Tour, where the company provided the tools and hosted the data on their servers. This is a case of people infringing Nintendo's Copyright. And Capcom's (and whoever else). Just because Nintendo provided legitimate software doesn't make them the police force of that software - unless they met many other factors, which, according to what little facts we have, they do not meet. Capcom is the one who must seek protection for Capcom's copyright. It's very unlikely that Nintendo would be found vicariously liable for hackers' infringment of Capcom's copyright.
Yes I understand all of that, but you see, I find nintendo's defense of their own copyright in this case to be wildly unnecessary and heavy-handed (although perfectly legal, I feel like I have to add lest I have to explained to me for the fifteenth time). The fanboy in me much prefer's khavall's suggestion that nintendo would be liable for infringement themselves if they did nothing because I could pretend that it wasn't nintendo being jerks. But! Apparently I cannot.
if someone planned to drop Dog into Crysis and was C&D'd the day before it came out and they agreed to it and didn't release it, we've have the same thread.
Nintendo is completely in the right here, and also good on ]EE[ for actually following the C&D (if they ever got one, and if their project ever got anywhere).
This isn't like a PC mod. This was a derivative work. Why is it a derivative work? Because the textures are based off existing character models. If I go into Half Life 2 and reskin Barney, that's a derivative work on Valve's copyright. If I import my own model and skin it, that's my own copyright work. It doesn't matter if the texture's colors are completely different, it's still intended for use on Nintendo's models.
In short, for this to be completely legit:
- they would have had to make all their own models and stages.
- the patch cannot contain ANY nintendo copyrighted material.
at this point, they might as well have made their own SSBB clone since you can't copyright game mechanics.
Also they can't go after homebrew channel since it does not have any Nintendo code in it.
Also, trademark law comes into this. They have to defend every percieved threat on their trademark or it becomes weakened.
So...some fans made a mod for a game on a console. Since consoles generally don't have mod communities, this is suddenly IP infringement? Please. If this were someone dropping Dog from HL2 into Crysis we'd have a thread about how awesome it is. Someone would make a dedicated server and we'd all crowd into it and have a good time messing around.
I'm not saying I love it or that it's good or something I necessarily stand for, but there are IP law issues on the table here.
It's infringment to reproduce illegitimate "copies" of a game. Copyright has certain specific definitions of what a "copy" is for software. What these users have done is exceeded the license of the copyright that they paid for when purchasing the game. It's also infringment to the "Adaptation right" to produce derivative works without the Copryright proprietor's permission. This all amounts to infringment.
There is infringment of Capcom's copyrights in taking Megaman and putting it into the game. That's Capcom's IP for Capcom to protect, if they so desire.
Furthermore, companies like Valve, or ID, or many others, can make it a part of their license that you are allowed to modify the game (derivative works under certain circumstances). Many pc devs/pubs do so, and usually it says as much in their license agreements. There's even a court case over Duke Nukem 3D mods that kind of touches upon this issue.
This petty bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves. You don't like people taking the mods and turning them into hacks for online play? That's fine; call up Valve or Microsoft and learn how to make a real online system that doesn't suffer from these kinds of security holes. Make a server-side checksum of the client's characters or something, and boot players off if they're up to no good. Ban them even, if you like. But what is the point of taking legal action against them, besides pissing in you fan's frosted flakes?
Meh, it's not like it takes much to send a simple C&D letter to a small group of people.
if someone planned to drop Dog into Crysis and was C&D'd the day before it came out and they agreed to it and didn't release it, we've have the same thread.
...My point is it wouldn't be C&D'd. Valve wouldn't give a shit.
Blue Blue, you are woefully under informed for this line of discussion and it's beginning to become irritating.
Oh-ho? So inform me then. You think if someone takes their boobs and puts them in smash brothers it will become M-rated?
Stop asking trollish questions, first and foremost.
No, it wouldn't become M-Rated because as far was we know, there's not a locked bare breast file in Smash's data, like Oblivion. Secondly, Nintendo has an obligation to uphold their company name because someone somewhere would see modded in breasts and blame Nintendo because "they let it happen."
It was you who pointed out that oblivion was negatively affected by modders due to their in-game bare breasts, and now you agree that nintendo would not be so impacted. I am not trolling anyone.
if someone planned to drop Dog into Crysis and was C&D'd the day before it came out and they agreed to it and didn't release it, we've have the same thread.
...My point is it wouldn't be C&D'd. Valve wouldn't give a shit.
We don't know how Valve would react, because it hasn't happened.
if someone planned to drop Dog into Crysis and was C&D'd the day before it came out and they agreed to it and didn't release it, we've have the same thread.
...My point is it wouldn't be C&D'd. Valve wouldn't give a shit.
Some companies allow, as part of the license agreement, that end users can modify the game as they like. Usually part of the agreement is that you don't sell your mods.
Even so, it doesn't have to be explicit. If a copyright proprietor didn't include terms in the license that a person cannot make mods to their software, the proprietor can simply choose not to enforce that right.
In other words, a company, like Valve or Id, could very well put in the EULA that a person can make mods and release them for free. Or they can choose not to do so and then decide not to sue when someone mods the stuff. Either way it's the same result. A copyright owner can do what he wants with his own property; and the choice is up to him if he wants to pursue protection when it's infringed.
Alright, I'm a big fan of smash (as are several people on the board are I'm sure) so there are of course some things that I wish they would fix or be updated.
That said, I understand why the big N would send a C&D. As someone said earlier, this does seem like a gateway to hacking. I'm the only one among my friends that knows about the homebrew channel and wii hacking in general. If my smash friends found out there is a way to retool some of the things in smash we dont like, I'm sure they would do some research into wii hacking. Also, I'm positive a few of my less reputable friends would continue from there and play burned games, etc.
Another thing someone said earlier (Urahonky, I think) was that he played online and a Luigi falcon punched him. He didn't imply it, but it sounded like he didn't actually have the fan patch installed, so if someone was able to use the hacks client side online, whats to stop someone from putting out giant penises doing mario's down B? Then Nintendo would have to deal with angry parents yelling with rage about what their kids are doing online.
As much as I would like options and updates for Brawl, I don't think Nintendo would want the public to have free reign over it all. Plus, who would buy the next Smash Bros when this one can have megaman, ridley, and all sorts of hacked goodies? It may be detrimental for Nintendo's future sales. Plus I'm always hopeful for a Brawl v.2 with an updated online and balance patching. Never gonna happen, but I can wish.
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EvilBadmanDO NOT TRUST THIS MANRegistered Userregular
Blue Blue, you are woefully under informed for this line of discussion and it's beginning to become irritating.
Oh-ho? So inform me then. You think if someone takes their boobs and puts them in smash brothers it will become M-rated?
Stop asking trollish questions, first and foremost.
No, it wouldn't become M-Rated because as far was we know, there's not a locked bare breast file in Smash's data, like Oblivion. Secondly, Nintendo has an obligation to uphold their company name because someone somewhere would see modded in breasts and blame Nintendo because "they let it happen."
It was you who pointed out that oblivion was negatively affected by modders due to their in-game bare breasts, and now you agree that nintendo would not be so impacted. I am not trolling anyone.
Because the files were in Oblivion naturally, but locked.
Blue Blue, you are woefully under informed for this line of discussion and it's beginning to become irritating.
Oh-ho? So inform me then. You think if someone takes their boobs and puts them in smash brothers it will become M-rated?
Stop asking trollish questions, first and foremost.
No, it wouldn't become M-Rated because as far was we know, there's not a locked bare breast file in Smash's data, like Oblivion. Secondly, Nintendo has an obligation to uphold their company name because someone somewhere would see modded in breasts and blame Nintendo because "they let it happen."
It was you who pointed out that oblivion was negatively affected by modders due to their in-game bare breasts, and now you agree that nintendo would not be so impacted. I am not trolling anyone.
Because the files were in Oblivion naturally, but locked.
Yes I know. What was your point in bringing it up initially? I was asking for a case where someone would have modded in some copyrighted work (megaman being the #1 used example) and what bethesda did, or had to do about it. You brought up the boob thing like it had something to do with nintendo.
See then I said in-game was key, because it was changed to m-rated because the boobs were there already, whereas there aren't any in brawl, then you called me woefully underinformed. I ask to be informed and I am a troll! There is just no pleasing you.
So...some fans made a mod for a game on a console. Since consoles generally don't have mod communities, this is suddenly IP infringement? Please. If this were someone dropping Dog from HL2 into Crysis we'd have a thread about how awesome it is. Someone would make a dedicated server and we'd all crowd into it and have a good time messing around.
I'm not saying I love it or that it's good or something I necessarily stand for, but there are IP law issues on the table here.
It's infringment to reproduce illegitimate "copies" of a game. Copyright has certain specific definitions of what a "copy" is for software. What these users have done is exceeded the license of the copyright that they paid for when purchasing the game. It's also infringment to the "Adaptation right" to produce derivative works without the Copryright proprietor's permission. This all amounts to infringment.
There is infringment of Capcom's copyrights in taking Megaman and putting it into the game. That's Capcom's IP for Capcom to protect, if they so desire.
Furthermore, companies like Valve, or ID, or many others, can make it a part of their license that you are allowed to modify the game (derivative works under certain circumstances). Many pc devs/pubs do so, and usually it says as much in their license agreements. There's even a court case over Duke Nukem 3D mods that kind of touches upon this issue.
This petty bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves. You don't like people taking the mods and turning them into hacks for online play? That's fine; call up Valve or Microsoft and learn how to make a real online system that doesn't suffer from these kinds of security holes. Make a server-side checksum of the client's characters or something, and boot players off if they're up to no good. Ban them even, if you like. But what is the point of taking legal action against them, besides pissing in you fan's frosted flakes?
Meh, it's not like it takes much to send a simple C&D letter to a small group of people.
Slash, thanks for taking the time to reply to each of my points; when the forums get into this sort of mode a lot of the discussion turns into one-shot counterpoints that really don't go anywhere.
I understand the IP concerns of it, and I think it was dumb of them to think that they could get away with dropping Megaman and other popular IP into it. I completely understand that it is within any company's rights to set the legal team on anything that threatens their IP.
All I am trying to say is that in the PC world things like this happen all the time, and the reaction is completely different (there are exceptions of course, and I am well aware of them). You know this, I know this, and so does everyone else on this forum that's worth a damn. When Nintendo/Sony/Square/etc pull a dick move like this, every single one of us groans and says "Well, it's within their rights." We all know it is a pointless move, we all know it just pisses people off.
If there is one thing I do not understand, it is how time and time again some of my favorite companies fail to realize this mistake.
Yeah but like youtube they also host and distribute created content. LBP was a poor choice of example...I guess more like oblivion? I actually don't play a lot of mod-heavy games. If someone could think of a case where one sent some guys a C&D I'd appreciate it.
See this? This is you trying to use Oblivion as an example. A poor one at that. I retorted and explained to you why it was, namely the boobie hack.
Instead of looking relative information up, you're asking ridiculously silly questions or making terrible references. Then hiding behind the excuse of ignorance, it's pretty much trolling.
Blue Blue, you are woefully under informed for this line of discussion and it's beginning to become irritating.
Oh-ho? So inform me then. You think if someone takes their boobs and puts them in smash brothers it will become M-rated?
Stop asking trollish questions, first and foremost.
No, it wouldn't become M-Rated because as far was we know, there's not a locked bare breast file in Smash's data, like Oblivion. Secondly, Nintendo has an obligation to uphold their company name because someone somewhere would see modded in breasts and blame Nintendo because "they let it happen."
It was you who pointed out that oblivion was negatively affected by modders due to their in-game bare breasts, and now you agree that nintendo would not be so impacted. I am not trolling anyone.
Because the files were in Oblivion naturally, but locked.
Locked so damn hard the modder had to hack apart the .NIF file.
That is, the model itself. There is absolutely no way anyone would have found it unless you were specifically looking for it.
Yeah but like youtube they also host and distribute created content. LBP was a poor choice of example...I guess more like oblivion? I actually don't play a lot of mod-heavy games. If someone could think of a case where one sent some guys a C&D I'd appreciate it.
See this? This is you trying to use Oblivion as an example. A poor one at that. I retorted and explained to you why it was, namely the boobie hack.
Oblivion is a great and perfect example of a game where people mod and distribute their mods. It matches up perfectly to people using Brawl to mod in copyright infringing works. I am great and perfect.
What do the boobs have to do with beth's legal obligation Re: their users creating illegal copyright infringing mods?
Instead of looking relative information up, you're asking ridiculously silly questions or making terrible references. Then hiding behind the excuse of ignorance, it's pretty much trolling.
I maintain that all of my references are perfect. Even the one about writing in a different ending into books. Bring them up and I will explain how perfect they are in great detail. LBP obviously doesn't count since I obviously already admitted it was a bad example (though I was later proven to be right about it, despite myself!)
So...some fans made a mod for a game on a console. Since consoles generally don't have mod communities, this is suddenly IP infringement? Please. If this were someone dropping Dog from HL2 into Crysis we'd have a thread about how awesome it is. Someone would make a dedicated server and we'd all crowd into it and have a good time messing around.
I'm not saying I love it or that it's good or something I necessarily stand for, but there are IP law issues on the table here.
It's infringment to reproduce illegitimate "copies" of a game. Copyright has certain specific definitions of what a "copy" is for software. What these users have done is exceeded the license of the copyright that they paid for when purchasing the game. It's also infringment to the "Adaptation right" to produce derivative works without the Copryright proprietor's permission. This all amounts to infringment.
There is infringment of Capcom's copyrights in taking Megaman and putting it into the game. That's Capcom's IP for Capcom to protect, if they so desire.
Furthermore, companies like Valve, or ID, or many others, can make it a part of their license that you are allowed to modify the game (derivative works under certain circumstances). Many pc devs/pubs do so, and usually it says as much in their license agreements. There's even a court case over Duke Nukem 3D mods that kind of touches upon this issue.
This petty bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves. You don't like people taking the mods and turning them into hacks for online play? That's fine; call up Valve or Microsoft and learn how to make a real online system that doesn't suffer from these kinds of security holes. Make a server-side checksum of the client's characters or something, and boot players off if they're up to no good. Ban them even, if you like. But what is the point of taking legal action against them, besides pissing in you fan's frosted flakes?
Meh, it's not like it takes much to send a simple C&D letter to a small group of people.
Slash, thanks for taking the time to reply to each of my points; when the forums get into this sort of mode a lot of the discussion turns into one-shot counterpoints that really don't go anywhere.
I understand the IP concerns of it, and I think it was dumb of them to think that they could get away with dropping Megaman and other popular IP into it. I completely understand that it is within any company's rights to set the legal team on anything that threatens their IP.
All I am trying to say is that in the PC world things like this happen all the time, and the reaction is completely different (there are exceptions of course, and I am well aware of them). You know this, I know this, and so does everyone else on this forum that's worth a damn. When Nintendo/Sony/Square/etc pull a dick move like this, every single one of us groans and says "Well, it's within their rights." We all know it is a pointless move, we all know it just pisses people off.
If there is one thing I do not understand, it is how time and time again some of my favorite companies fail to realize this mistake.
The modding community and accessibility on PC is far beyond anything the consoles have. Sure there's been mod groups for consoles, but not in the sheer capacity of what is on the computers. And that's mostly the consoles fault, as none of them are easily modifiable, but Valve and Fallout 3 have mod tools on their PC versions. Modding on consoles isn't something the common end user is indulging in.
All I am trying to say is that in the PC world things like this happen all the time, and the reaction is completely different (there are exceptions of course, and I am well aware of them). You know this, I know this, and so does everyone else on this forum that's worth a damn. When Nintendo/Sony/Square/etc pull a dick move like this, every single one of us groans and says "Well, it's within their rights." We all know it is a pointless move, we all know it just pisses people off.
If there is one thing I do not understand, it is how time and time again some of my favorite companies fail to realize this mistake.
One thing about this is in my mind the PC audience is totally different from consoles, especially the Wii, which not only has a huge audience that is new to gaming (and/or technology in some cases), but also carries the weight of the "family friendly" name brand Nintendo. A lot of people still think video games=nintendo, and thus see the company as the target that is most responsible for any problems. Kind of like that idiotic family a few years ago that sued Nintendo over giving their kid seizures, despite every game having the seizure warning.
On the PC side, a lot of the modders and users of mods are fairly intelligent about how their computers and software works, therefore knowing what to expect when it comes to modifying their experience. Since the audiences are a lot more lenient/forgiving compared to sue-hungry parents, perhaps PC devs don't have to worry as much and are more carefree about mods.
So...some fans made a mod for a game on a console. Since consoles generally don't have mod communities, this is suddenly IP infringement? Please. If this were someone dropping Dog from HL2 into Crysis we'd have a thread about how awesome it is. Someone would make a dedicated server and we'd all crowd into it and have a good time messing around.
I'm not saying I love it or that it's good or something I necessarily stand for, but there are IP law issues on the table here.
It's infringment to reproduce illegitimate "copies" of a game. Copyright has certain specific definitions of what a "copy" is for software. What these users have done is exceeded the license of the copyright that they paid for when purchasing the game. It's also infringment to the "Adaptation right" to produce derivative works without the Copryright proprietor's permission. This all amounts to infringment.
There is infringment of Capcom's copyrights in taking Megaman and putting it into the game. That's Capcom's IP for Capcom to protect, if they so desire.
Furthermore, companies like Valve, or ID, or many others, can make it a part of their license that you are allowed to modify the game (derivative works under certain circumstances). Many pc devs/pubs do so, and usually it says as much in their license agreements. There's even a court case over Duke Nukem 3D mods that kind of touches upon this issue.
This petty bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves. You don't like people taking the mods and turning them into hacks for online play? That's fine; call up Valve or Microsoft and learn how to make a real online system that doesn't suffer from these kinds of security holes. Make a server-side checksum of the client's characters or something, and boot players off if they're up to no good. Ban them even, if you like. But what is the point of taking legal action against them, besides pissing in you fan's frosted flakes?
Meh, it's not like it takes much to send a simple C&D letter to a small group of people.
Slash, thanks for taking the time to reply to each of my points; when the forums get into this sort of mode a lot of the discussion turns into one-shot counterpoints that really don't go anywhere.
I understand the IP concerns of it, and I think it was dumb of them to think that they could get away with dropping Megaman and other popular IP into it. I completely understand that it is within any company's rights to set the legal team on anything that threatens their IP.
All I am trying to say is that in the PC world things like this happen all the time, and the reaction is completely different (there are exceptions of course, and I am well aware of them). You know this, I know this, and so does everyone else on this forum that's worth a damn. When Nintendo/Sony/Square/etc pull a dick move like this, every single one of us groans and says "Well, it's within their rights." We all know it is a pointless move, we all know it just pisses people off.
If there is one thing I do not understand, it is how time and time again some of my favorite companies fail to realize this mistake.
Agreed, it sucks. I wish console modding was seen by console companies in kind of the general way that most PC companies do. Unfortunately... some, like Nintendo, do not. I think the real important difference is that Nintendo is the one that owns and makes the consoles, whereas with PCs, well, there is no single one PC. Nintendo may simply be using Copyright as a hammer to try and smash projects that could potentially lead to a way to mod the system and allow for piracy. There is no gaming company with that kind of vested interest in the specific hardware setups of gamers in the PC gaming world. Modding PC games doesn't put any particular PC gaming company at risk of having their specific and universal set of hardware at risk of a piracy solution being developed that could cause a distinct kind of harm to them and their third party licensees.
I don't know if it makes sense or if it's fair or not. But the reason that there seems to be an "idealogical" difference is that there doesn't seem to be key companies with vested interest in specific hardware layouts when it comes to PC gaming. And I think that this sort of thing is more common (C&Ds for modding) on consoles for this reason.
Nintendo may simply be using Copyright as a hammer to try and smash projects that could potentially lead to a way to mod the system and allow for piracy. There is no gaming company with that kind of vested interest in the specific hardware setups of gamers in the PC gaming world. Modding PC games doesn't put any particular PC gaming company at risk of having their specific and universal set of hardware at risk of a piracy solution being developed that could cause a distinct kind of harm to them and their third party licensees.
Potentially mod the system and aid piracy? I thought all that homebrew stuff had already achieved that. Or - maybe it was actually just running titles region-free? I recall there was that thing where the guy found the exploit and was being ignored by nintendo...I wonder how that turned out.
edit - quick search shows at least the vc and wiiware are busted.
Nintendo may simply be using Copyright as a hammer to try and smash projects that could potentially lead to a way to mod the system and allow for piracy. There is no gaming company with that kind of vested interest in the specific hardware setups of gamers in the PC gaming world. Modding PC games doesn't put any particular PC gaming company at risk of having their specific and universal set of hardware at risk of a piracy solution being developed that could cause a distinct kind of harm to them and their third party licensees.
Potentially mod the system and aid piracy? I thought all that homebrew stuff had already achieved that. Or - maybe it was actually just running titles region-free? I recall there was that thing where the guy found the exploit and was being ignored by nintendo...I wonder how that turned out.
I dunno exactly what Nintendo's reasons are, honestly. I just know that what they're doing is within their rights. And I'm just suggesting a key difference between the console games environment and the pc games environment that probably has companies more inclined to do this sort of thing.
It's debatable about what Nintendo's real actual underlying reasons for doing this are. And whether this course of action is a "good thing" for them or not is also up to debate. But being able to do this, legally, isn't really.
I'm just posting in this thread because I'm trying to be helpful and explain things. Stuff about copyright law I can help clarify. Underlying motives for actions are completely up to debate though, and honestly, I do not mean to take a "stance," because I don't really want to get into a "stance" debate. I just want to answer questions/clarify stuff over copyright if I can and that's all.
Seems like everyone's on the same page that Nintendo is legally in the right but it's kind of a dick thing to do to people just having fun. However I get the feeling Nintendo probably had more on their minds that just messing with fans. This part of the OP:
So, here's what happened. A while back, a guy on Smash Boards named Pharrox figured out where on the Brawl disc character textures were located and, being the genius he is, found a way to replace those textures with files he made in Photoshop. The first Brawl texture hack was made. Since then, numerous people have learned his techniques and expanded upon them. Three such people made up the hack team ]Syntax Error[, or ]EE[ for short.
The guys at ]EE[ spent the greater part of a year creating a custom patch for Brawl that would have been the equivalent of a total conversion mod for textures. These three guys, with help from the Stack Smash team (linked above), paved the way for hackers in Brawl, eventually being able to hack everything from textures, to stages, to character selection portraits (think what you click on when selecting one of the Pokemon, for instance)...
Maybe Nintendo was a little more worried about these guys digging so deep for so long, expanding from Photoshop textures to hacking in stages and patches, and grew concerned about the integrity of their code/protecting future releases. But then again I'm no expert on that end, just sounds like this project quickly grew and could have had longer-term implications for Nintendo than just awesome character models.
As for Nintendo not caring about the homebrew channel but coming down hard on these guys, I thought the latest Wii system update killed the Twilight hack? Remember, Nintendo hates all creativity/community aspects, they just wait until the last moment to shut you down.
I'm just posting in this thread because I'm trying to be helpful and explain things. Stuff about copyright law I can help clarify. Underlying motives for actions are completely up to debate though, and honestly, I do not mean to take a "stance," because I don't really want to get into a "stance" debate. I just want to answer questions/clarify stuff over copyright if I can and that's all.
You are very helpful! And yes, I don't think the legality on nintendo's end is up for debate at all.
I am on team Jerk, though. Team Jerk is opposed to team Protecting Their Property And Good On Them.
eh, point's moot anyways, since another team has it (the ones linked in the OP) and are going to do their own thing and release stuff anyways.
2. Yes we have everything EE made. Unfortunately we can’t leak because ]EE[ would be held liable. That’s nooooo good. The only thing we can do is remix some of EE’s hacks and put a fresh Stack Smash spin on them.
eh, point's moot anyways, since another team has it (the ones linked in the OP) and are going to do their own thing and release stuff anyways.
2. Yes we have everything EE made. Unfortunately we can’t leak because ]EE[ would be held liable. That’s nooooo good. The only thing we can do is remix some of EE’s hacks and put a fresh Stack Smash spin on them.
Hahaha hahahaha
Next they are going to release chrono trigger resurrection but instead of chrono it's goku.
It's like if Warren Robbinett showed up and put an end to slash's adventure project over there. You don't think anyone would be upset?
I know, I'm treading on thin ice over here!
HOLD IT!
The Adventure reboot was originally *my* idea and I would like to shed some light on it. I personally contacted Warren about it and he was more the honored. However, he told me does not own the rights to Adventure, Atari does. Now, if you want to learn about the mod, you look no further than the README that came with my code...
### A note on Copyright ###
This code has been created in good faith that it's predecessor was done
against a legal reference implementation. In the case of Sony Computer
Entertainment, Inc. v. Connectix Corp., it was found that if the copyright work
is modestly transformative, than the original disassembly falls into the realm
of fair use (paragraph 11, 203 F.3d 596 (9th Cir. 2000)). As this
implementation is on a much larger scale, written in completely different
language, and created for a system that simply did not exist in 1979, this
work falls well into the realm of a fair use.
The idea for a game is not protected by copyright. The same is true of the
name or title given to the game and of the method or methods for playing it.
A name can be protected by trademark only, and only if it's enforced and not
generic. This puts gamepley into the realm on "non-protected use".
I at least *tried* to legally cover my ass.
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Dusdais ashamed of this postSLC, UTRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
Is this Bob's Game thing new? I can't tell exactly when his protest started; the latest video there was posted in September, so...
Is this Bob's Game thing new? I can't tell exactly when his protest started; the latest video there was posted in September, so...
I get the impression there was supposed to be a counter.
Either way it doesn't matter, his game looks terrible. Ooh, I have so many characters, and a weather system!
Really? I thought it looked pretty cool. Definitely in an old school indie sort of way, but I commend his unwavering persistence. That dude will die before letting his idea suffer the same.
Oh, and he's got one of those LED marquee boards on the webcam that alternates between "REGGIE!" and "Day 13".
I agree that there is plenty of legal basis for Nintendo to do this.
It is also a fucking stupid decision on their part and Very Bad PR®.
In other, tangentially related news, this isn't the only place they're acting in a vaguely Nazi-esque manner regarding their closed platform.
How dramatic. He should just sign up for Xbox community games.
It's obviously a PR stunt too, but that doesn't mean Nintendo is acting intelligently or in a manner worthy of support :P
How exactly is protecting their closed platform and having a having a zero tolerance policy for Wii-hacking unintelligent?
We are probably taking 1% of their installed user base that give a damn. Whether they benefit from this move in the long run is open to debate, but shutting this down is of very little risk to them.
Alright, I'm a big fan of smash (as are several people on the board are I'm sure) so there are of course some things that I wish they would fix or be updated.
That said, I understand why the big N would send a C&D. As someone said earlier, this does seem like a gateway to hacking. I'm the only one among my friends that knows about the homebrew channel and wii hacking in general. If my smash friends found out there is a way to retool some of the things in smash we dont like, I'm sure they would do some research into wii hacking. Also, I'm positive a few of my less reputable friends would continue from there and play burned games, etc.
Another thing someone said earlier (Urahonky, I think) was that he played online and a Luigi falcon punched him. He didn't imply it, but it sounded like he didn't actually have the fan patch installed, so if someone was able to use the hacks client side online, whats to stop someone from putting out giant penises doing mario's down B? Then Nintendo would have to deal with angry parents yelling with rage about what their kids are doing online.
As much as I would like options and updates for Brawl, I don't think Nintendo would want the public to have free reign over it all. Plus, who would buy the next Smash Bros when this one can have megaman, ridley, and all sorts of hacked goodies? It may be detrimental for Nintendo's future sales. Plus I'm always hopeful for a Brawl v.2 with an updated online and balance patching. Never gonna happen, but I can wish.
Yeah I didn't have the fan patch installed. This was vanilla Smash Bros that I was playing. As soon as that happened I stuck with local (lag was bad too, but that was the final straw).
Posts
Who, Nintendo had to stop these guys?
Nintendo is protecting their own rights. They could have very well decided not to pursue their own protection of their own IP, and let people infringe, but the choice is up to them - and they chose to protect their own IP.
This is not a similar situation as LBP or Guitar Hero World Tour, where the company provided the tools and hosted the data on their servers. This is a case of people infringing Nintendo's Copyright. And Capcom's (and whoever else). Just because Nintendo provided legitimate software doesn't make them the police force of that software - unless they met many other factors, which, according to what little facts we have, they do not meet. Capcom is the one who must seek protection for Capcom's copyright. It's very unlikely that Nintendo would be found vicariously liable for hackers' infringment of Capcom's copyright.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
This petty bullshit is really starting to get on my nerves. You don't like people taking the mods and turning them into hacks for online play? That's fine; call up Valve or Microsoft and learn how to make a real online system that doesn't suffer from these kinds of security holes. Make a server-side checksum of the client's characters or something, and boot players off if they're up to no good. Ban them even, if you like. But what is the point of taking legal action against them, besides pissing in you fan's frosted flakes?
Stop asking trollish questions, first and foremost.
No, it wouldn't become M-Rated because as far was we know, there's not a locked bare breast file in Smash's data, like Oblivion. Secondly, Nintendo has an obligation to uphold their company name because someone somewhere would see modded in breasts and blame Nintendo because "they let it happen."
Yes I understand all of that, but you see, I find nintendo's defense of their own copyright in this case to be wildly unnecessary and heavy-handed (although perfectly legal, I feel like I have to add lest I have to explained to me for the fifteenth time). The fanboy in me much prefer's khavall's suggestion that nintendo would be liable for infringement themselves if they did nothing because I could pretend that it wasn't nintendo being jerks. But! Apparently I cannot.
This isn't like a PC mod. This was a derivative work. Why is it a derivative work? Because the textures are based off existing character models. If I go into Half Life 2 and reskin Barney, that's a derivative work on Valve's copyright. If I import my own model and skin it, that's my own copyright work. It doesn't matter if the texture's colors are completely different, it's still intended for use on Nintendo's models.
In short, for this to be completely legit:
- they would have had to make all their own models and stages.
- the patch cannot contain ANY nintendo copyrighted material.
at this point, they might as well have made their own SSBB clone since you can't copyright game mechanics.
Also they can't go after homebrew channel since it does not have any Nintendo code in it.
Also, trademark law comes into this. They have to defend every percieved threat on their trademark or it becomes weakened.
I'm not saying I love it or that it's good or something I necessarily stand for, but there are IP law issues on the table here.
It's infringment to reproduce illegitimate "copies" of a game. Copyright has certain specific definitions of what a "copy" is for software. What these users have done is exceeded the license of the copyright that they paid for when purchasing the game. It's also infringment to the "Adaptation right" to produce derivative works without the Copryright proprietor's permission. This all amounts to infringment.
There is infringment of Capcom's copyrights in taking Megaman and putting it into the game. That's Capcom's IP for Capcom to protect, if they so desire.
Furthermore, companies like Valve, or ID, or many others, can make it a part of their license that you are allowed to modify the game (derivative works under certain circumstances). Many pc devs/pubs do so, and usually it says as much in their license agreements. There's even a court case over Duke Nukem 3D mods that kind of touches upon this issue.
Meh, it's not like it takes much to send a simple C&D letter to a small group of people.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
...My point is it wouldn't be C&D'd. Valve wouldn't give a shit.
It was you who pointed out that oblivion was negatively affected by modders due to their in-game bare breasts, and now you agree that nintendo would not be so impacted. I am not trolling anyone.
We don't know how Valve would react, because it hasn't happened.
edit: removed due to PM
Some companies allow, as part of the license agreement, that end users can modify the game as they like. Usually part of the agreement is that you don't sell your mods.
Even so, it doesn't have to be explicit. If a copyright proprietor didn't include terms in the license that a person cannot make mods to their software, the proprietor can simply choose not to enforce that right.
In other words, a company, like Valve or Id, could very well put in the EULA that a person can make mods and release them for free. Or they can choose not to do so and then decide not to sue when someone mods the stuff. Either way it's the same result. A copyright owner can do what he wants with his own property; and the choice is up to him if he wants to pursue protection when it's infringed.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
That said, I understand why the big N would send a C&D. As someone said earlier, this does seem like a gateway to hacking. I'm the only one among my friends that knows about the homebrew channel and wii hacking in general. If my smash friends found out there is a way to retool some of the things in smash we dont like, I'm sure they would do some research into wii hacking. Also, I'm positive a few of my less reputable friends would continue from there and play burned games, etc.
Another thing someone said earlier (Urahonky, I think) was that he played online and a Luigi falcon punched him. He didn't imply it, but it sounded like he didn't actually have the fan patch installed, so if someone was able to use the hacks client side online, whats to stop someone from putting out giant penises doing mario's down B? Then Nintendo would have to deal with angry parents yelling with rage about what their kids are doing online.
As much as I would like options and updates for Brawl, I don't think Nintendo would want the public to have free reign over it all. Plus, who would buy the next Smash Bros when this one can have megaman, ridley, and all sorts of hacked goodies? It may be detrimental for Nintendo's future sales. Plus I'm always hopeful for a Brawl v.2 with an updated online and balance patching. Never gonna happen, but I can wish.
Because the files were in Oblivion naturally, but locked.
Yes I know. What was your point in bringing it up initially? I was asking for a case where someone would have modded in some copyrighted work (megaman being the #1 used example) and what bethesda did, or had to do about it. You brought up the boob thing like it had something to do with nintendo.
See then I said in-game was key, because it was changed to m-rated because the boobs were there already, whereas there aren't any in brawl, then you called me woefully underinformed. I ask to be informed and I am a troll! There is just no pleasing you.
Slash, thanks for taking the time to reply to each of my points; when the forums get into this sort of mode a lot of the discussion turns into one-shot counterpoints that really don't go anywhere.
I understand the IP concerns of it, and I think it was dumb of them to think that they could get away with dropping Megaman and other popular IP into it. I completely understand that it is within any company's rights to set the legal team on anything that threatens their IP.
All I am trying to say is that in the PC world things like this happen all the time, and the reaction is completely different (there are exceptions of course, and I am well aware of them). You know this, I know this, and so does everyone else on this forum that's worth a damn. When Nintendo/Sony/Square/etc pull a dick move like this, every single one of us groans and says "Well, it's within their rights." We all know it is a pointless move, we all know it just pisses people off.
If there is one thing I do not understand, it is how time and time again some of my favorite companies fail to realize this mistake.
See this? This is you trying to use Oblivion as an example. A poor one at that. I retorted and explained to you why it was, namely the boobie hack.
Instead of looking relative information up, you're asking ridiculously silly questions or making terrible references. Then hiding behind the excuse of ignorance, it's pretty much trolling.
Locked so damn hard the modder had to hack apart the .NIF file.
That is, the model itself. There is absolutely no way anyone would have found it unless you were specifically looking for it.
Oblivion is a great and perfect example of a game where people mod and distribute their mods. It matches up perfectly to people using Brawl to mod in copyright infringing works. I am great and perfect.
What do the boobs have to do with beth's legal obligation Re: their users creating illegal copyright infringing mods? I maintain that all of my references are perfect. Even the one about writing in a different ending into books. Bring them up and I will explain how perfect they are in great detail. LBP obviously doesn't count since I obviously already admitted it was a bad example (though I was later proven to be right about it, despite myself!)
Hee hee...
Balls.
The modding community and accessibility on PC is far beyond anything the consoles have. Sure there's been mod groups for consoles, but not in the sheer capacity of what is on the computers. And that's mostly the consoles fault, as none of them are easily modifiable, but Valve and Fallout 3 have mod tools on their PC versions. Modding on consoles isn't something the common end user is indulging in.
It is also a fucking stupid decision on their part and Very Bad PR®.
In other, tangentially related news, this isn't the only place they're acting in a vaguely Nazi-esque manner regarding their closed platform.
One thing about this is in my mind the PC audience is totally different from consoles, especially the Wii, which not only has a huge audience that is new to gaming (and/or technology in some cases), but also carries the weight of the "family friendly" name brand Nintendo. A lot of people still think video games=nintendo, and thus see the company as the target that is most responsible for any problems. Kind of like that idiotic family a few years ago that sued Nintendo over giving their kid seizures, despite every game having the seizure warning.
On the PC side, a lot of the modders and users of mods are fairly intelligent about how their computers and software works, therefore knowing what to expect when it comes to modifying their experience. Since the audiences are a lot more lenient/forgiving compared to sue-hungry parents, perhaps PC devs don't have to worry as much and are more carefree about mods.
How dramatic. He should just sign up for Xbox community games.
Agreed, it sucks. I wish console modding was seen by console companies in kind of the general way that most PC companies do. Unfortunately... some, like Nintendo, do not. I think the real important difference is that Nintendo is the one that owns and makes the consoles, whereas with PCs, well, there is no single one PC. Nintendo may simply be using Copyright as a hammer to try and smash projects that could potentially lead to a way to mod the system and allow for piracy. There is no gaming company with that kind of vested interest in the specific hardware setups of gamers in the PC gaming world. Modding PC games doesn't put any particular PC gaming company at risk of having their specific and universal set of hardware at risk of a piracy solution being developed that could cause a distinct kind of harm to them and their third party licensees.
I don't know if it makes sense or if it's fair or not. But the reason that there seems to be an "idealogical" difference is that there doesn't seem to be key companies with vested interest in specific hardware layouts when it comes to PC gaming. And I think that this sort of thing is more common (C&Ds for modding) on consoles for this reason.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
It's obviously a PR stunt too, but that doesn't mean Nintendo is acting intelligently or in a manner worthy of support :P
Potentially mod the system and aid piracy? I thought all that homebrew stuff had already achieved that. Or - maybe it was actually just running titles region-free? I recall there was that thing where the guy found the exploit and was being ignored by nintendo...I wonder how that turned out.
edit - quick search shows at least the vc and wiiware are busted.
I dunno exactly what Nintendo's reasons are, honestly. I just know that what they're doing is within their rights. And I'm just suggesting a key difference between the console games environment and the pc games environment that probably has companies more inclined to do this sort of thing.
It's debatable about what Nintendo's real actual underlying reasons for doing this are. And whether this course of action is a "good thing" for them or not is also up to debate. But being able to do this, legally, isn't really.
I'm just posting in this thread because I'm trying to be helpful and explain things. Stuff about copyright law I can help clarify. Underlying motives for actions are completely up to debate though, and honestly, I do not mean to take a "stance," because I don't really want to get into a "stance" debate. I just want to answer questions/clarify stuff over copyright if I can and that's all.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
Maybe Nintendo was a little more worried about these guys digging so deep for so long, expanding from Photoshop textures to hacking in stages and patches, and grew concerned about the integrity of their code/protecting future releases. But then again I'm no expert on that end, just sounds like this project quickly grew and could have had longer-term implications for Nintendo than just awesome character models.
As for Nintendo not caring about the homebrew channel but coming down hard on these guys, I thought the latest Wii system update killed the Twilight hack? Remember, Nintendo hates all creativity/community aspects, they just wait until the last moment to shut you down.
You are very helpful! And yes, I don't think the legality on nintendo's end is up for debate at all.
I am on team Jerk, though. Team Jerk is opposed to team Protecting Their Property And Good On Them.
Hahaha
hahahaha
Next they are going to release chrono trigger resurrection but instead of chrono it's goku.
oh man that website is really terrible
HOLD IT!
The Adventure reboot was originally *my* idea and I would like to shed some light on it. I personally contacted Warren about it and he was more the honored. However, he told me does not own the rights to Adventure, Atari does. Now, if you want to learn about the mod, you look no further than the README that came with my code...
I at least *tried* to legally cover my ass.
I get the impression there was supposed to be a counter.
Either way it doesn't matter, his game looks terrible. Ooh, I have so many characters, and a weather system!
Really? I thought it looked pretty cool. Definitely in an old school indie sort of way, but I commend his unwavering persistence. That dude will die before letting his idea suffer the same.
Oh, and he's got one of those LED marquee boards on the webcam that alternates between "REGGIE!" and "Day 13".
We are probably taking 1% of their installed user base that give a damn. Whether they benefit from this move in the long run is open to debate, but shutting this down is of very little risk to them.
Yeah I didn't have the fan patch installed. This was vanilla Smash Bros that I was playing. As soon as that happened I stuck with local (lag was bad too, but that was the final straw).
Fuck home brew if it lets cheat-modders play with regular peeps.