Regarding genres for the OP, I think you're a little mixed up on a couple of the definitions.
"Speculative fiction" is almost always used to refer to all of science fiction and fantasy. It's a way to refer to the overall genre, the section of the bookstore, where these stories reside.
"Epic" or "Heroic" Fantasy does not necessarily involve fighting an ultimate evil. Usually it just means an epic struggle to right some wrong or resolve some conflict in an alternate, medieval-esque world. A Song of Ice and Fire is certainly epic fantasy, even though thus far most of the fighting has simply been between regular people, with sympathetic characters on both sides of most conflicts.
You're sort of right about Space Opera, but it really can be more loosely and accurately defined as "science fiction that takes place on ships flying around the solar system/galaxy/universe". There is some overlap between hard science fiction and space opera. (Alastair Reynolds, for instance.)
For the most part your other definitions are fine, but some of the movie examples are a bit off.
Don't shoot the messenger. Science Fiction writers have been gnashing their teeth at 'Sci-Fi' as a description of their work for years.
Is dead-on. There are many SF (which is the preferred shorthand term, as was said) authors who HATE the term Sci-Fi, because it conjures up for them images of guys in rubber suits and chrome ray guns.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Had anyone read "The Word and The Void" series? I started reading Running with the Demon a few months ago but I lost track of it when my job picked up the busy.
I would like to register an official complaint with using categories.
For one thing, I think it's difficult to pin down many books into the boundaries of these categories. Why is Harry Potter epic fantasy and not YA? Why is Eragon Swords and Sorcery and not Epic? How much military does a sci-fi book need to have to be "military" and not "space opera"? Any genre boundaries are going to be arbitrary to begin with (YA especially so).
Secondly—and more importantly—I think the best and most influential SF/fantasy books defy narrow classification. It's tempting to think of Star Wars as "space opera," but it has swordfights and magic and military elements as well. Harry Potter has flashes of epic fantasy (especially in book 7), along with traditional mystery and "school-story" elements. Chances are, if a book fits snugly into a categorical box, it's probably not especially creative—unless, of course, this book created the box (like Lord of the Rings).
I'm not totally against classification. I just think it should be more general, so as not to shoehorn the books. Less categories would also help us look at books outside of our safety zones and preferred "genres."
Despite my nitpicky corrections above, Qingu, I agree. There is a lot of overlap between genres and the boundaries are hard to define. I'd prefer to just separate things into "science fiction" and "fantasy" and leave it at that.
I don't mind separating YA, because it's very easy to define the boundary there: If it's in the YA section of the bookstore and is marketed by the publisher to young adults, it's a YA book.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Had anyone read "The Word and The Void" series? I started reading Running with the Demon a few months ago but I lost track of it when my job picked up the busy.
It's not bad. I personally think that the Heritage series was his best work, but the Word and Void books aren't bad. I liked the first book of the trilogy the most, the next two held my attention, just not as well. However, together they form the basis of the "Genesis" books, which are actually pretty interesting. I do still need to read the last Genesis book (did it come out yet?), and see if he can successfully link everything together.
Bear in mind that I read the Shannara stuff when I was still fairly young (12-ish?), so I tend to have a soft spot for it. Except for First King, that book was boring.
I would like to register an official complaint with using categories.
For one thing, I think it's difficult to pin down many books into the boundaries of these categories. Why is Harry Potter epic fantasy and not YA? Why is Eragon Swords and Sorcery and not Epic? How much military does a sci-fi book need to have to be "military" and not "space opera"? Any genre boundaries are going to be arbitrary to begin with (YA especially so).
Secondly—and more importantly—I think the best and most influential SF/fantasy books defy narrow classification. It's tempting to think of Star Wars as "space opera," but it has swordfights and magic and military elements as well.
I'm not totally against classification. I just think it should be more general, so as not to shoehorn the books. Less categories would also help us look at books outside of our safety zones and preferred "genres."
for YA, i wasn't even sure that should be there...
for eragon, i was going with the movie eragon and not the book series. i realize that may have been confusing... but i was just trying to help zeeny.
if you don't have categories then this will quickly become the reading thread specifically about sci-fi/fantasy
Despite my nitpicky corrections above, Qingu, I agree. There is a lot of overlap between genres and the boundaries are hard to define. I'd prefer to just separate things into "science fiction" and "fantasy" and leave it at that.
I don't mind separating YA, because it's very easy to define the boundary there: If it's in the YA section of the bookstore and is marketed by the publisher to young adults, it's a YA book.
I agree with just leaving it as "SF and Fantasy."
I disagree about YA. Yeah, there's marketing to support the classification, but marketing can and often does shoehorn. Many YA books (such as the Bartimaeus and His Dark Materials) can be just as dark and mature as "adult" books; the only difference is that their protagonists are, or start off, relatively young. And even this isn't all that cut-and-dry—Luke Skywalker is supposed to be a teenager, but Star Wars isn't YA.
Why not just tag individual books as (YA), instead of making it a category. Heck, my public library sometimes has copies of the same book on both the Adult and YA shelves.
Urban Fantasy - either the story takes place almost entirely inside of a fantasy city with little change of scenery or it takes place in modern day settings with normal aspects of fantasy.
Example: Godzilla, Cloverfield
No bloody way.
Examples of urban fantasy: Dresden Files, Neverwhere
Urban Fantasy - either the story takes place almost entirely inside of a fantasy city with little change of scenery or it takes place in modern day settings with normal aspects of fantasy.
Example: Godzilla, Cloverfield
No bloody way.
Examples of urban fantasy: Dresden Files, Neverwhere
if you can think of a better urban fantasy POPULAR MOVIE then go for it. i was trying for a reference where at least people would have an idea what it meant without reading any specific book in the genre.
I think the system of recommendations and voting is more essential than having strict categories.
it at least gives places to place different books, you can probably just use the major categories such as
Epic fantasy, sword and sorcery, hard SF, soft SF if that makes it easier to distinguish.
I went to look it up, and the wikipedia page prominently displays the following:
When I finally got tired of arguing with her and decided to write a novel as if I was some kind of formulaic, genre writing drone, just to prove to her how awful it would be, I wrote the first book of the Dresden Files.
– Jim Butcher, in 'A Conversation With Jim Butcher', 2004
There's a blurring of lines between a lot of genres.
Anyway, for a recommendation which would fall in Sword and Sorcery by the above qualifications, I'm going to dig into an older one, which I got into purely by chance thanks to SFBC: The Swords series. I'm going to try to not get into too much detail, because the discovery is half the fun of this series. Covers spoiled for size.
The above is actually 11 books in 4 novels (the first three are all bound trilogies, the last one is two) - each story is independent of one another plot-wise, for the most part, but references the same characters and take place in chronological order. It's highly recommended you stick with the order - I actually read the first trilogy last, and lost a lot of detail/info from reading through my first time. Also, as a note, there's an anthology titled "An Armory of Swords" which has a bunch of short stories set in the world by other authors, but I can't seem to find a good image of it. Guess it's a tad more rare.
At any rate, without getting into too much detail, it takes place in a world where the Greek Gods are alive and interfering in the world, but it's not Greek mythology. They are obsessed with their 'Great Game,' seeking ascendancy over one another, normally using humans as pawns, with some few humans actually participating themselves. As part of this Game, Vulcan forges twelve Swords, each with unique powers, to be spread amongst the Gods for their usage and amusement. However, they were made so powerful that, for the first time, there was something which could kill a God. Something happened (this is actually the first short story in the anthology, and the one by Saberhagen himself, so I won't get into detail) and the Swords were spread throughout the world, with humans getting their hands on them. Chaos ensues.
I read these when I was a fair bit younger - it's not exactly highbrow, but as pulp fantasy goes, it's quite entertaining. Very easy, but entertaining nonetheless. The first trilogy covers a lot of ground and can't really be pinned, but the next eight books all focus on individual Swords (although they may involve others), to the degree that they're individually named "X's story" where the X is the name of a sword.
For those curious, the swords and their powers:
Coinspinner - Basically, grants the owner unbelievable luck, while bringing misfortune upon any who would try to harm them. However, the sword has something of a mind of its own, and is apt to disappear when its owner needs it most.
Doomgiver - Turns any attempt to harm or affect its controller back at the person instigating it - ie, arrows turn in flight and go back at the person who shot them, etc. Note this also applies to the powers of other Swords.
Dragonslicer - kinda a crappy one, honestly. In the series, Dragons are non-sentient predatory creatures with extremely durable hides which normal weapons can't really penetrate. This one not only can cut through them like butter, it leads the holder towards vital areas. Still very specific usage.
Farslayer - Hold the thought of the person you want to kill and let the sword go. It'll fly and pierce the heart of the person you thought of, no matter what physical or magical barriers surround them. Double edged sword, literally, since anyone around the person you killed can take the sword and use it themselves.
Mindsword - Compels absolute devotion bordering on worship of the person holding it, and those people will mindlessly follow orders without regards to their own safety. Has a range of roughly a long bowshot. Also, wounds from the sword tend to fester poisonously. Other Swords which affect psyche may not get the full effect of the Sword. When people leave/are forced to leave the direct influence of the sword, the effects wear off slowly.
Shieldbreaker - Renders the bearer immune to the powers of any other Sword, as well as invulnerable in weaponed combat - the Sword will move to not only block any attack, but actually shatter the weapons which are brought against the bearer. However, during combat, it adheres itself to the bearer's hand and can't be dropped, and the Sword can't harm an unarmed person - it passes harmlessly through them. An unarmed person can therefore grapple and subdue the bearer, leaving the bearer powerless.
Sightblinder - Makes the bearer appear as either the greatest fear or greatest love of anyone who looks upon them, as well as supernaturally enhancing the perception/senses of the bearer.
Soulcutter - Projects a field of apathy and despair across a range similar to Mindsword's. Unfortunately, it has the same effect on the wielder, as well as causing them to physically and mentally age at a faster rate, and the apathy is so strong they can't be bothered to cover the Sword again. Basically, this one's not used that much as more than a bargaining chip - it's kinda the "nuke" of the series.
Stonecutter - like Dragonslicer, but with more functional usage. It can cut through any type fo stone with ease. Useful in sieges, for stealing things, etc.
Townsaver - Basically takes over the person's body while defending innocents, giving them unbelievable strength and endurance - they cannot set the sword down while protecting others, and will continue fighting no matter the wounds they take....until there's no one to protect or no one to fight, at which everything they experienced crashes down all at once.
Wayfinder - will guide the owner to whatever they seek, intelligently (leading to items which they need to access whatever they seek, for example). However, it rarely, if ever, picks the 'safest' path, and can only lead a person to one thing at a time.
Woundhealer - Not a sword in the traditional sense, it heals all wounds, including things which have been done by other Swords. It can be self-administered, and can be used actively (ie, stick it inside yourself and you will survive a jump off a cliff).
At any rate, with varied uses like that, you can see where it can be made into an interesting series as they're brought to bear against one another
I would like to register an official complaint with using categories.
Well, I didn't make them up on the spot. I swear. Also, if you look at the authors suggested in the second post, they really, really differ from the one in the post on the previous page.
I don't agree myself with the examples he gave, but I really didn't think it matters.
I'd really, really, really like to use some form of categorization. The goal of the thread was to rank good books, but to allow to satisfy an itch about a decent content on a given theme too. Still, if the overwhelming opinion is to just have SF & Fantasy, that's what we'd do.
Right now, all categories are up for debate and removal.
For one thing, I think it's difficult to pin down many books into the boundaries of these categories.
The only reason we have categories is to group similar material, by quality and then by theme.
Would it be better if I rename epic to: "So, you liked LoTR?.." etc? I won't mind that either, but I'm unsure if that doesn't make categorization even more difficult.
We don't really need to "pin" the book/series, just to put together those that share stylistic or thematic links.
Why is Harry Potter epic fantasy and not YA? Why is Eragon Swords and Sorcery and not Epic?
Personally, I'd put both those in their very own category....
...you don't want to know.
How much military does a sci-fi book need to have to be "military" and not "space opera"?
I guess that was just a random example, but seriously, military SF is awfully obvious. I haven't read a lot of it, but the Honor Harrington series and Scalzy's trilogy are the military sf by definition. Army/Fleet this, army/fleet that, gain a rank, onto next book. Creative? Not especially, but there are people who like the formula.
Any genre boundaries are going to be arbitrary to begin with (YA especially so).
Should I remove it, and just mark books on the list intended for younger audience with (YA) next to them?
I'm not totally against classification. I just think it should be more general, so as not to shoehorn the books. Less categories would also help us look at books outside of our safety zones and preferred "genres."
What categories do you propose we maintain?
Edit: Speculative fiction is a cock up. It probably should have been Historical fiction. Think Simmons' The Terror, the Twelve book from the releases part, even Stephenson's cryptonomicon.
Sci-Fi, Space: Being those Science Fiction books that deal largely with space exploration, alien lifeforms, and inter-planetary conflicts. (Star Wars EU, Ender's Game, Starship Troopers)
Sci-Fi, Cyberpunk: Being those Science Fiction books that deal largely with societal changes (often degradation) due to the continued advance of technology and/or corporate power. (Altered Carbon, Neuromancer)
Fantasy, Classic: Being those Fantasy books that deal largely with Swords and/or Magic in historical based settings. (LotR, Song of Fire and Ice, anything with Drizzt in it...)
Fantasy, Contemporary: Being those Fantasy books that deal largely with Magical elements in a modern-day setting. (Tales from the Nightside, Word and the Void series, Anita Blake)
Something like this? The edges are pretty soft, but allow for thematic similarities?
If we absolutely have to have categories—and I say this without having read much SF—here's what I would do. (And this probably seems like a weird way to classify stuff, but I think it gets the job done)
• Total Fantasy takes place entirely on a made-up world with little resemblance to our own. (Or, in the cases of some old pulp fantasies and the Sword of Shannarra, on a future Earth so far removed from today that it is functionally indistinguishable from a made-up world). Other examples: Lord of the Rings, Earthsea, A Song of Ice and Fire, and reams and reams of derivative shit, such as Eragon.
• Earth-blended Fantasy often takes place in a parallel magical world that intersects with our own world, and often stars characters from Earth. Examples include: Narnia, The Dark is Rising, The Neverending Story, Amber, Harry Potter, and His Dark Materials. Also included in this category are fantasies that take place on an "alternate Earth," where much of the history is the same, but with wizards or some shit—such as the Bartimaeus trilogy. Neil Gaiman also goes here.
• Near-future Science Fiction would include Asimov robots and cyberpunk and other sub-genres that stay on or near Earth and deal with (somewhat) plausible extensions of current technology. Includes The House of the Scorpion.
• Far-out Science Fiction is the kind with starships and shit. Foundation and Dune go here. And I guess I'd put something like Diamond Age here as well.
I really can't see "space" and "cyberpunk" as the divisions in science fiction. For one thing, they don't come close to covering the whole spectrum by themselves. For another thing, "cyberpunk" is a very specific subgenre that covers a tiny percentage of the overarching SF genre.
I could maybe get behind those rough divisions for fantasy, but they still seem kind of arbitrary.
I would honestly prefer just "science fiction" and "fantasy" if we're not going to use specific subgenres.
Edit: Qingu's broad categories are better, though. But that still leaves genres like steampunk and alternate history out in the cold.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Edit: Qingu's broad categories are better, though. But that still leaves genres like steampunk and alternate history out in the cold.
We could change "Near-future SF" to "Near-future and Near-past SF" so that it would include Steampunk.
Or just put Steampunk and alternate histories into the "Earth-blended Fantasy" category, which seems about right to me. Steampunk has always struck me more of a fantasy thing than a SF thing, though I guess the lines are ultimately blurred between those two categories too.
Edit: the more I think about it, the more I like my categories. They almost make a spectrum wheel. If you go far enough along on "Far-out SF," your story starts to look like "Total Fantasy" (i.e. Star Wars). Steampunk is an intermediary between Earth-blended Fantasy and Near-future SF.
We could also make a graph, where the X-axis is a spectrum of Magic<—>Technology, and the Y-axis is a spectrum of Near Modern Earth<—>Far from Modern Earth.....
Or...instead of caring about how we're going to categorize things in the OP, we could actually talk about books.
I haven't read any Saberhagen. Should I be ashamed? Your description sounded interesting
Not really. He's not exactly well known. I got the books purely by chance when I signed up for SFBC and had to pick some "pick 5 books from this list to get for a buck" thing - the Swords books had better looking covers than most and so I got The First Triad, The Second Triad, and Endgame.
Like I said - they're entertaining, but keep in mind I read them when I was in middle school. It's mindless entertainment. He sticks to a lot of cliches, but the world/variance of the Swords made for an entertaining read.
It wouldn't surprise me if you can find the books used for cheap somewhere, or just grab them from a library, since it shouldn't take more than a week or two to plow through one of the bound trilogies.
This is Stephenson's first book, and instead of being intensely fantastical as his other books have been, it's pretty much a straight parody of college. Multiple characters, such as Casimir Radon, a genius level physics major who, because he didn't take a class understanding science's 'relationship with the self' need to retake several freshman level classes, and Bert Nix, the leader of a group of LARPers who utilize the tunnels under the college, are hilarious. To a large degree, it's a 'normal' book, until the Crotobaltislovians who are the custodians for the school take the nuclear reactor hostage and attempt to form a Free People's Republic of Crotobaltislovia within the limits of the school.
!add Will Gibson - Neuromancer Near Future SF
The first cyberpunk novel to come out, Neuromancer is particularly amazing when you consider that it talks about things like hacking and the internet far before computers were able to connect to an internet. Case is a former hacker who's body was damaged such that he can't jack into the Matrix (their internet). He is picked up from Chiba City by Molly, a mercenary who kicks ass. Together they hack stuff and do things in one of the most well written SF novels of all time, written in a style reminiscent of old noir.
The first cyberpunk novel to come out, Neuromancer is particularly amazing when you consider that it talks about things like hacking and the internet far before computers were able to connect to an internet. Case is a former hacker who's body was damaged such that he can't jack into the Matrix (their internet). He is picked up from Chiba City by Molly, a mercenary who kicks ass. Together they hack stuff and do things in one of the most well written SF novels of all time, written in a style reminiscent of old noir.
!vote Will Gibson - Neuromancer Near Future SF
This easily gets a vote. The next two books (Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive) are pretty good, too, but Neuromancer was always my favorite.
!add Orson Scott Card - Ender's Game. (It's soft science fiction. I don't know what we're going to do regarding categorization, though.) Details to come in a second.
One of the most well-known novels in science fiction, Ender's Game is Card's most famous novel. It is the story of a genius child enlisted by Earth's interstellar military and sent to a battle school in space, where he and others like him are trained to be next Napoleons and Alexander the Greats. It's one of those books where the premise doesn't do justice the execution, and the execution is magnificent. It is the play on morality that makes this novel so important; its accessible style, sympathetic main character, and compelling plot make it an immensely entertaining read. If you haven't checked it out, do so. Not everyone loves it, but most who read it do.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
And while we're on it: !add Orson Scott Card - Speaker for the Dead.
The sequel, and an all-around great story, and worthy follow-up. However, I would stop there, because I read Xenocide, and it stabbed me in the heart and took away everything that was awesome about the first two books. IMO.
So, eh, where does something like Kim Newman's Anno Dracula series fit in if we're doing the whole categories thing? Most alternate history books are called SF, but these have far more of a fantasy feel to them, especially the first. I guess it’s the urban-SF-but-really-urban-fantasy-which-is,-indeed,-a-silly-category-even-if-it-makes-a-certain-kind-of-sense category?
For those who haven't (and if you haven't, remedy that) read them, they’re an alternate history in which not only are a lot of famous, fictional characters real, but Bram Stoker's Dracula wasn't killed but managed to take over England as regent.
There are three books so far, the first (Anno Dracula) taking place during Stoker's timeline and focusing on an English agent working for Arthur Conan Doyle's The Diogenes Club in an effort to catch Jack The Ripper. It very much captures the feel you associate with Stoker's book, and with that era. There’s a lot of fun to be had spotting famous literary figures or real historical figures as they pop up, either for extended parts or for a quick ‘cameo’. These range from Fu Manchu to Anne Rice’s Lestat, with a host of others in between.
The second book (The Bloody Red Baron) takes place during WW1, focusing on the effort to stop the famous Red Baron. Only this particular version of the Red Baron isn’t quite human.. Features another impressive cast of real and fictional characters, from Mata Hari to Mycroft Holmes.
The third book (Dracula Cha-Cha-Cha) takes place in the fifties, in Rome. It has a cool atmosphere, shifting between a glamorous, movie-like idealization of late fifties Rome (there’s a Fellini inspiration), to a Giallo feel, into something right out of Argento’s Three Mothers trilogy. Features an appearance by Clark Kent, of all ‘people’, and a vampire James Bond.
The first book is the best, with the third being somewhat better than the second. They are all very much worth reading. A fourth is planned.
Screw the whole categories thing, just go read Anno Dracula. A fun set of stories from a very clever writer, featuring vampires, trench warfare and villains with cats (with a twist).
Also, just getting these out of the way if we're doing this voting thing.
!add A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin (fantasy) !add Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson/Ian Cameron Esslemont (fantasy) !add Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien (fantasy) !add The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien (fantasy) !add The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis (fantasy) !add Robert A. Heinlein (Sci-Fi) !add Kurt Vonnegut (Sci-Fi) - this one's only loosely sci-fi in some of his books, admittedly.
Posts
But I guess Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? would be a hard sci-fi.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
the larger categories like Hard SF, Epic fantasy, etc. can have many aspects of smaller categories present.
use your best judgement.
Dresden files are awesome. Pure fun.
Then vote for them!
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
"Speculative fiction" is almost always used to refer to all of science fiction and fantasy. It's a way to refer to the overall genre, the section of the bookstore, where these stories reside.
"Epic" or "Heroic" Fantasy does not necessarily involve fighting an ultimate evil. Usually it just means an epic struggle to right some wrong or resolve some conflict in an alternate, medieval-esque world. A Song of Ice and Fire is certainly epic fantasy, even though thus far most of the fighting has simply been between regular people, with sympathetic characters on both sides of most conflicts.
You're sort of right about Space Opera, but it really can be more loosely and accurately defined as "science fiction that takes place on ships flying around the solar system/galaxy/universe". There is some overlap between hard science fiction and space opera. (Alastair Reynolds, for instance.)
For the most part your other definitions are fine, but some of the movie examples are a bit off.
Oh, and this:
Is dead-on. There are many SF (which is the preferred shorthand term, as was said) authors who HATE the term Sci-Fi, because it conjures up for them images of guys in rubber suits and chrome ray guns.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
For one thing, I think it's difficult to pin down many books into the boundaries of these categories. Why is Harry Potter epic fantasy and not YA? Why is Eragon Swords and Sorcery and not Epic? How much military does a sci-fi book need to have to be "military" and not "space opera"? Any genre boundaries are going to be arbitrary to begin with (YA especially so).
Secondly—and more importantly—I think the best and most influential SF/fantasy books defy narrow classification. It's tempting to think of Star Wars as "space opera," but it has swordfights and magic and military elements as well. Harry Potter has flashes of epic fantasy (especially in book 7), along with traditional mystery and "school-story" elements. Chances are, if a book fits snugly into a categorical box, it's probably not especially creative—unless, of course, this book created the box (like Lord of the Rings).
I'm not totally against classification. I just think it should be more general, so as not to shoehorn the books. Less categories would also help us look at books outside of our safety zones and preferred "genres."
I don't mind separating YA, because it's very easy to define the boundary there: If it's in the YA section of the bookstore and is marketed by the publisher to young adults, it's a YA book.
It's not bad. I personally think that the Heritage series was his best work, but the Word and Void books aren't bad. I liked the first book of the trilogy the most, the next two held my attention, just not as well. However, together they form the basis of the "Genesis" books, which are actually pretty interesting. I do still need to read the last Genesis book (did it come out yet?), and see if he can successfully link everything together.
Bear in mind that I read the Shannara stuff when I was still fairly young (12-ish?), so I tend to have a soft spot for it. Except for First King, that book was boring.
for YA, i wasn't even sure that should be there...
for eragon, i was going with the movie eragon and not the book series. i realize that may have been confusing... but i was just trying to help zeeny.
if you don't have categories then this will quickly become the reading thread specifically about sci-fi/fantasy
I disagree about YA. Yeah, there's marketing to support the classification, but marketing can and often does shoehorn. Many YA books (such as the Bartimaeus and His Dark Materials) can be just as dark and mature as "adult" books; the only difference is that their protagonists are, or start off, relatively young. And even this isn't all that cut-and-dry—Luke Skywalker is supposed to be a teenager, but Star Wars isn't YA.
But I've said my piece and shall leave it up to zeeny.
No bloody way.
Examples of urban fantasy: Dresden Files, Neverwhere
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
if you can think of a better urban fantasy POPULAR MOVIE then go for it. i was trying for a reference where at least people would have an idea what it meant without reading any specific book in the genre.
it at least gives places to place different books, you can probably just use the major categories such as
Epic fantasy, sword and sorcery, hard SF, soft SF if that makes it easier to distinguish.
I went to look it up, and the wikipedia page prominently displays the following:
That's, uh... that's a real enthusiasm builder.
Anyway, for a recommendation which would fall in Sword and Sorcery by the above qualifications, I'm going to dig into an older one, which I got into purely by chance thanks to SFBC: The Swords series. I'm going to try to not get into too much detail, because the discovery is half the fun of this series. Covers spoiled for size.
The above is actually 11 books in 4 novels (the first three are all bound trilogies, the last one is two) - each story is independent of one another plot-wise, for the most part, but references the same characters and take place in chronological order. It's highly recommended you stick with the order - I actually read the first trilogy last, and lost a lot of detail/info from reading through my first time. Also, as a note, there's an anthology titled "An Armory of Swords" which has a bunch of short stories set in the world by other authors, but I can't seem to find a good image of it. Guess it's a tad more rare.
At any rate, without getting into too much detail, it takes place in a world where the Greek Gods are alive and interfering in the world, but it's not Greek mythology. They are obsessed with their 'Great Game,' seeking ascendancy over one another, normally using humans as pawns, with some few humans actually participating themselves. As part of this Game, Vulcan forges twelve Swords, each with unique powers, to be spread amongst the Gods for their usage and amusement. However, they were made so powerful that, for the first time, there was something which could kill a God. Something happened (this is actually the first short story in the anthology, and the one by Saberhagen himself, so I won't get into detail) and the Swords were spread throughout the world, with humans getting their hands on them. Chaos ensues.
I read these when I was a fair bit younger - it's not exactly highbrow, but as pulp fantasy goes, it's quite entertaining. Very easy, but entertaining nonetheless. The first trilogy covers a lot of ground and can't really be pinned, but the next eight books all focus on individual Swords (although they may involve others), to the degree that they're individually named "X's story" where the X is the name of a sword.
For those curious, the swords and their powers:
Doomgiver - Turns any attempt to harm or affect its controller back at the person instigating it - ie, arrows turn in flight and go back at the person who shot them, etc. Note this also applies to the powers of other Swords.
Dragonslicer - kinda a crappy one, honestly. In the series, Dragons are non-sentient predatory creatures with extremely durable hides which normal weapons can't really penetrate. This one not only can cut through them like butter, it leads the holder towards vital areas. Still very specific usage.
Farslayer - Hold the thought of the person you want to kill and let the sword go. It'll fly and pierce the heart of the person you thought of, no matter what physical or magical barriers surround them. Double edged sword, literally, since anyone around the person you killed can take the sword and use it themselves.
Mindsword - Compels absolute devotion bordering on worship of the person holding it, and those people will mindlessly follow orders without regards to their own safety. Has a range of roughly a long bowshot. Also, wounds from the sword tend to fester poisonously. Other Swords which affect psyche may not get the full effect of the Sword. When people leave/are forced to leave the direct influence of the sword, the effects wear off slowly.
Shieldbreaker - Renders the bearer immune to the powers of any other Sword, as well as invulnerable in weaponed combat - the Sword will move to not only block any attack, but actually shatter the weapons which are brought against the bearer. However, during combat, it adheres itself to the bearer's hand and can't be dropped, and the Sword can't harm an unarmed person - it passes harmlessly through them. An unarmed person can therefore grapple and subdue the bearer, leaving the bearer powerless.
Sightblinder - Makes the bearer appear as either the greatest fear or greatest love of anyone who looks upon them, as well as supernaturally enhancing the perception/senses of the bearer.
Soulcutter - Projects a field of apathy and despair across a range similar to Mindsword's. Unfortunately, it has the same effect on the wielder, as well as causing them to physically and mentally age at a faster rate, and the apathy is so strong they can't be bothered to cover the Sword again. Basically, this one's not used that much as more than a bargaining chip - it's kinda the "nuke" of the series.
Stonecutter - like Dragonslicer, but with more functional usage. It can cut through any type fo stone with ease. Useful in sieges, for stealing things, etc.
Townsaver - Basically takes over the person's body while defending innocents, giving them unbelievable strength and endurance - they cannot set the sword down while protecting others, and will continue fighting no matter the wounds they take....until there's no one to protect or no one to fight, at which everything they experienced crashes down all at once.
Wayfinder - will guide the owner to whatever they seek, intelligently (leading to items which they need to access whatever they seek, for example). However, it rarely, if ever, picks the 'safest' path, and can only lead a person to one thing at a time.
Woundhealer - Not a sword in the traditional sense, it heals all wounds, including things which have been done by other Swords. It can be self-administered, and can be used actively (ie, stick it inside yourself and you will survive a jump off a cliff).
At any rate, with varied uses like that, you can see where it can be made into an interesting series as they're brought to bear against one another
Well, I didn't make them up on the spot. I swear. Also, if you look at the authors suggested in the second post, they really, really differ from the one in the post on the previous page.
I don't agree myself with the examples he gave, but I really didn't think it matters.
I'd really, really, really like to use some form of categorization. The goal of the thread was to rank good books, but to allow to satisfy an itch about a decent content on a given theme too. Still, if the overwhelming opinion is to just have SF & Fantasy, that's what we'd do.
Right now, all categories are up for debate and removal.
The only reason we have categories is to group similar material, by quality and then by theme.
Would it be better if I rename epic to: "So, you liked LoTR?.." etc? I won't mind that either, but I'm unsure if that doesn't make categorization even more difficult.
We don't really need to "pin" the book/series, just to put together those that share stylistic or thematic links.
Personally, I'd put both those in their very own category....
I guess that was just a random example, but seriously, military SF is awfully obvious. I haven't read a lot of it, but the Honor Harrington series and Scalzy's trilogy are the military sf by definition. Army/Fleet this, army/fleet that, gain a rank, onto next book. Creative? Not especially, but there are people who like the formula.
Should I remove it, and just mark books on the list intended for younger audience with (YA) next to them?
What categories do you propose we maintain?
Edit: Speculative fiction is a cock up. It probably should have been Historical fiction. Think Simmons' The Terror, the Twelve book from the releases part, even Stephenson's cryptonomicon.
Making up a few (brainstorming):
Sci-Fi, Space: Being those Science Fiction books that deal largely with space exploration, alien lifeforms, and inter-planetary conflicts. (Star Wars EU, Ender's Game, Starship Troopers)
Sci-Fi, Cyberpunk: Being those Science Fiction books that deal largely with societal changes (often degradation) due to the continued advance of technology and/or corporate power. (Altered Carbon, Neuromancer)
Fantasy, Classic: Being those Fantasy books that deal largely with Swords and/or Magic in historical based settings. (LotR, Song of Fire and Ice, anything with Drizzt in it...)
Fantasy, Contemporary: Being those Fantasy books that deal largely with Magical elements in a modern-day setting. (Tales from the Nightside, Word and the Void series, Anita Blake)
Something like this? The edges are pretty soft, but allow for thematic similarities?
• Total Fantasy takes place entirely on a made-up world with little resemblance to our own. (Or, in the cases of some old pulp fantasies and the Sword of Shannarra, on a future Earth so far removed from today that it is functionally indistinguishable from a made-up world). Other examples: Lord of the Rings, Earthsea, A Song of Ice and Fire, and reams and reams of derivative shit, such as Eragon.
• Earth-blended Fantasy often takes place in a parallel magical world that intersects with our own world, and often stars characters from Earth. Examples include: Narnia, The Dark is Rising, The Neverending Story, Amber, Harry Potter, and His Dark Materials. Also included in this category are fantasies that take place on an "alternate Earth," where much of the history is the same, but with wizards or some shit—such as the Bartimaeus trilogy. Neil Gaiman also goes here.
• Near-future Science Fiction would include Asimov robots and cyberpunk and other sub-genres that stay on or near Earth and deal with (somewhat) plausible extensions of current technology. Includes The House of the Scorpion.
• Far-out Science Fiction is the kind with starships and shit. Foundation and Dune go here. And I guess I'd put something like Diamond Age here as well.
I could maybe get behind those rough divisions for fantasy, but they still seem kind of arbitrary.
I would honestly prefer just "science fiction" and "fantasy" if we're not going to use specific subgenres.
Edit: Qingu's broad categories are better, though. But that still leaves genres like steampunk and alternate history out in the cold.
Or just put Steampunk and alternate histories into the "Earth-blended Fantasy" category, which seems about right to me. Steampunk has always struck me more of a fantasy thing than a SF thing, though I guess the lines are ultimately blurred between those two categories too.
Edit: the more I think about it, the more I like my categories. They almost make a spectrum wheel. If you go far enough along on "Far-out SF," your story starts to look like "Total Fantasy" (i.e. Star Wars). Steampunk is an intermediary between Earth-blended Fantasy and Near-future SF.
We could also make a graph, where the X-axis is a spectrum of Magic<—>Technology, and the Y-axis is a spectrum of Near Modern Earth<—>Far from Modern Earth.....
Hey btw, I can't understand why no one have mentioned the Culture and Iain M. Banks yet, easily my favorite SF writer.
I haven't read any Saberhagen. Should I be ashamed? Your description sounded interesting
Not really. He's not exactly well known. I got the books purely by chance when I signed up for SFBC and had to pick some "pick 5 books from this list to get for a buck" thing - the Swords books had better looking covers than most and so I got The First Triad, The Second Triad, and Endgame.
Like I said - they're entertaining, but keep in mind I read them when I was in middle school. It's mindless entertainment. He sticks to a lot of cliches, but the world/variance of the Swords made for an entertaining read.
It wouldn't surprise me if you can find the books used for cheap somewhere, or just grab them from a library, since it shouldn't take more than a week or two to plow through one of the bound trilogies.
This is Stephenson's first book, and instead of being intensely fantastical as his other books have been, it's pretty much a straight parody of college. Multiple characters, such as Casimir Radon, a genius level physics major who, because he didn't take a class understanding science's 'relationship with the self' need to retake several freshman level classes, and Bert Nix, the leader of a group of LARPers who utilize the tunnels under the college, are hilarious. To a large degree, it's a 'normal' book, until the Crotobaltislovians who are the custodians for the school take the nuclear reactor hostage and attempt to form a Free People's Republic of Crotobaltislovia within the limits of the school.
!add Will Gibson - Neuromancer Near Future SF
The first cyberpunk novel to come out, Neuromancer is particularly amazing when you consider that it talks about things like hacking and the internet far before computers were able to connect to an internet. Case is a former hacker who's body was damaged such that he can't jack into the Matrix (their internet). He is picked up from Chiba City by Molly, a mercenary who kicks ass. Together they hack stuff and do things in one of the most well written SF novels of all time, written in a style reminiscent of old noir.
!vote Will Gibson - Neuromancer Near Future SF
This easily gets a vote. The next two books (Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive) are pretty good, too, but Neuromancer was always my favorite.
!vote Orson Scott Card - Ender's Game.
And while we're on it:
!add Orson Scott Card - Speaker for the Dead.
The sequel, and an all-around great story, and worthy follow-up. However, I would stop there, because I read Xenocide, and it stabbed me in the heart and took away everything that was awesome about the first two books. IMO.
Eagerly awaiting Shadowrise sometime this year.
For those who haven't (and if you haven't, remedy that) read them, they’re an alternate history in which not only are a lot of famous, fictional characters real, but Bram Stoker's Dracula wasn't killed but managed to take over England as regent.
There are three books so far, the first (Anno Dracula) taking place during Stoker's timeline and focusing on an English agent working for Arthur Conan Doyle's The Diogenes Club in an effort to catch Jack The Ripper. It very much captures the feel you associate with Stoker's book, and with that era. There’s a lot of fun to be had spotting famous literary figures or real historical figures as they pop up, either for extended parts or for a quick ‘cameo’. These range from Fu Manchu to Anne Rice’s Lestat, with a host of others in between.
The second book (The Bloody Red Baron) takes place during WW1, focusing on the effort to stop the famous Red Baron. Only this particular version of the Red Baron isn’t quite human.. Features another impressive cast of real and fictional characters, from Mata Hari to Mycroft Holmes.
The third book (Dracula Cha-Cha-Cha) takes place in the fifties, in Rome. It has a cool atmosphere, shifting between a glamorous, movie-like idealization of late fifties Rome (there’s a Fellini inspiration), to a Giallo feel, into something right out of Argento’s Three Mothers trilogy. Features an appearance by Clark Kent, of all ‘people’, and a vampire James Bond.
The first book is the best, with the third being somewhat better than the second. They are all very much worth reading. A fourth is planned.
Screw the whole categories thing, just go read Anno Dracula. A fun set of stories from a very clever writer, featuring vampires, trench warfare and villains with cats (with a twist).
!add A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin (fantasy)
!add Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson/Ian Cameron Esslemont (fantasy)
!add Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien (fantasy)
!add The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien (fantasy)
!add The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis (fantasy)
!add Robert A. Heinlein (Sci-Fi)
!add Kurt Vonnegut (Sci-Fi) - this one's only loosely sci-fi in some of his books, admittedly.