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♪Do you believe in (talking about) magic?♪
Sorenson
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Magic is more or less standard fare in RPGs and other fantasy-ish games these days, manifesting in so many different forms in so many different titles that it's kind of a wonder that we even think of it as magic anymore in he first place.Depending on what game in particular you're talking about, you can have anything from the stock character that learns magic along a strict, unyielding schedule as they develop (Dragon Quest) or a particular class that can learn any number of magical abilities (class-based Final Fantasy, party-based dungeon crawlers, most MMOs) to systems that're a bit more liberal in regard to who can do what (Final Fantasy 7, the more modern Elder Scrolls games) and games that try to turn the bog-standard magic system on its head and shake things up. The last of those is what I'm particularly interested in: I wanna' see just how many neat nonconforming magic systems developers have come up with over the last 20 years and explore what makes them special (though general discussion on the deployment of magic in games in general is fine and dandy, too).
It would be rather unsporting to just toss this out to you folks as-is, though, so I'll start off with some systems of interest and general notes:
Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Arcanum, a wonderful RPG by Troika Games that is, as its title implies, a mash-up of traditional fantasy with late nineteenth-century steampunk, is in truth not that remarkable or really differentiating in the magic department from other games: players invest in numerous schools of magic, learning spells from each in a linear fashion (though certainely notable is just the sheer number of schools, which range from bog-standard fire/water/wind/earth stuff to sonics, temporal manipulation, telekinesis and necromancy). What DOES make the system interesting is its conflictive nature with the other half of the game's skill system, technology: as it's put in-game, technology works with the flow of the world's natural patterns and laws whilst magic works against it, so a character steeped in technological learnings and clad in technological items, or stuck in an area with high technological concentrations, will have difficulty or complete inability to use magic.
Arx Fatalis/Black and White
Given the sheer similarity between the system used by these two I figured I'd lump them together. Owing to their general fantastic nature, a lot of games (RPGs especially) automate as much of the work for the player as possible, the prototype being ye olde menu-driven RPG like Dragon Quest: not these two. Whereas with other games you simply pick a spell and a target and watch the fireworks, Arx Fatalis and Black and White use a glyph-based system for launching spells: drag the cursor on the screen in a specific pattern, either a single set shape or a series of strokes following a pattern of runic shapes.
Eternal Darkness
And if one is to mention runic shapes, one must certainely mention the system that is completily dependent upon them. Unlike most games in which spells have set effects and levels of effectiveness, Eternal Darkness shakes things up by implimenting a rune-based system in which spells are controlled by the number and type of runes used: depending upon the runes of alignment (split between the three cosmic beings that drive the game story, each representitive of a particular paradigm and trait) effect and target, plus additional power-boosting runes, you can wind up with anything from bog-standard healing spells to shields and summons.
Rudra no Hihou
Arguably one of the neatest systems I've ever seen. You know how in a lot of comics and anime and stuff how folks will shout out the name of the attack they're doing? Take that and twist it so that what you're shouting out affects what you're actually going to do. I'll let Wikipedia explain:
But for all the mold-breaking the above do, I'm sure there're plenty more games that go and do their own thing with some level of success, and I want to learn more.
Other things to discuss:
*Magic replenishment methods (fixed versus regenerative)
*Why anything that isn't a direct attack spell is often useless, and how to fix this
*Magic with long-term usability instead of one-shot-ness
It would be rather unsporting to just toss this out to you folks as-is, though, so I'll start off with some systems of interest and general notes:
Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Arcanum, a wonderful RPG by Troika Games that is, as its title implies, a mash-up of traditional fantasy with late nineteenth-century steampunk, is in truth not that remarkable or really differentiating in the magic department from other games: players invest in numerous schools of magic, learning spells from each in a linear fashion (though certainely notable is just the sheer number of schools, which range from bog-standard fire/water/wind/earth stuff to sonics, temporal manipulation, telekinesis and necromancy). What DOES make the system interesting is its conflictive nature with the other half of the game's skill system, technology: as it's put in-game, technology works with the flow of the world's natural patterns and laws whilst magic works against it, so a character steeped in technological learnings and clad in technological items, or stuck in an area with high technological concentrations, will have difficulty or complete inability to use magic.
Arx Fatalis/Black and White
Given the sheer similarity between the system used by these two I figured I'd lump them together. Owing to their general fantastic nature, a lot of games (RPGs especially) automate as much of the work for the player as possible, the prototype being ye olde menu-driven RPG like Dragon Quest: not these two. Whereas with other games you simply pick a spell and a target and watch the fireworks, Arx Fatalis and Black and White use a glyph-based system for launching spells: drag the cursor on the screen in a specific pattern, either a single set shape or a series of strokes following a pattern of runic shapes.
Eternal Darkness
And if one is to mention runic shapes, one must certainely mention the system that is completily dependent upon them. Unlike most games in which spells have set effects and levels of effectiveness, Eternal Darkness shakes things up by implimenting a rune-based system in which spells are controlled by the number and type of runes used: depending upon the runes of alignment (split between the three cosmic beings that drive the game story, each representitive of a particular paradigm and trait) effect and target, plus additional power-boosting runes, you can wind up with anything from bog-standard healing spells to shields and summons.
Rudra no Hihou
Arguably one of the neatest systems I've ever seen. You know how in a lot of comics and anime and stuff how folks will shout out the name of the attack they're doing? Take that and twist it so that what you're shouting out affects what you're actually going to do. I'll let Wikipedia explain:
The game's most innovative feature is its magic system. Whereas most console RPGs give the player access to a limited number of precreated spells, Rudra no Hihō allows the player nearly total creative freedom. The player can enter various "words of power" (called "mantras" in the English translation) into his grimoire. Every one will have some effect, although most are not useful. There is an underlying framework to the system, however, which is based on the gameworld's elements.
A complete mantra generally consists of a prefix, elemental core, and suffix, although the core alone is enough to produce an effect. There are eight elements (plus healing), and of these, six are arranged in mutually antagonistic pairings: fire vs. water, wind vs. electricity, and light vs dark. The remaining two offensive elements, earth and void, have no strengths or weaknesses. Since spells are formed from letters, there are specific patterns corresponding to each element. Certain spells that use the root word tou for example, will produce lightning-based attacks, while those containing aqu will create water-based effects.
Additionally, there are prefixes and suffixes that can be added onto the base elements to change their attributes. Most of these influence the base power and cost to use the spell, but others add abnormal status effects (for example, poisoning the target) or change the mantra's range so that it only targets a single enemy instead of multiple ones or vice versa. Prefixes and suffixes with similar effects can be used in tandem to produce amplified effects.
Other mantras consist of unique words, many of them in English, that create certain effects and skip the naming system entirely. Many of these strange words are learned from in-game characters or by reading books. For example, geo is an earth-related mantra, and kingcoast is a water spell. Adding prefixes or suffixes to these usually makes something completely different (and often useless).
This use of spelled-out mantras allows the player to learn magic from even his enemies. When an enemy uses magic, the player has but to write down the spells used and then to enter them into his or her own grimoire after the battle in order to have access to them. Some of these enemy spells are extremely powerful, although many are not as cost-efficient as the basic spells described above. Some are more space-efficient versions of regular spells.
And because I know some of you folks are wondering, WANG is a low-level water spell. :P
But for all the mold-breaking the above do, I'm sure there're plenty more games that go and do their own thing with some level of success, and I want to learn more.
Other things to discuss:
*Magic replenishment methods (fixed versus regenerative)
*Why anything that isn't a direct attack spell is often useless, and how to fix this
*Magic with long-term usability instead of one-shot-ness
Sorenson on
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The only similarity comes from the gestural system, and Black and White's was far more freeform.
Man, if a newer RPG based their magic on that system? I'd fucking pre-order that thing so hard. New graphics, open world, physics...
Oh man, that game would be tits.
Magic is like, my thing. Some people like guns, or sports, or steampunk, whatever. I like magic. I'm always a magic using character in any game I play and typically an evil one, to boot, so this entire thread topic is extremely relevant to my interests.
What the fuck was up with that system? Weirdest thing ever.
I don't know how it's done in 4th but honestly it was pretty strange and nebulous. Spells per day makes sense from a literary perspective but in game...it just never felt right to me. I guess it's because your ability to be an effective party member doesn't just depend on dice, it's entirely dependent upon the GM to give you rest stops, and you can either be overpowered or underpowered at his will.
It was definitely weird but I actually preferred that to having MP. I don't know why, something about it just seemed better to me.
Thank god for Serpent Isle's Expansion. Everybody loves the Ring of Reagents.
If you know what I mean. :winky:
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
Yeah bloodstone or whatever it was called was way to freakin rare in SI. That ring did kinda break the game though.
One involves colors of visible light and prisms, and the other involves crystalized and/or petrified remains of an elder race.
Vancian spellcasting had it's problems but also a lot of benefits. It is easier to work out spells per day than having to subtract points from a MP type thing by hand.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
Edit: some of the best magic systems I've seen were in MUDs, but that probably goes without saying.
Steam BoardGameGeek Twitter
3.5 Psionics is cool but the fact is that what I said is true. Keeping track of your power points is more time consuming than keeping track of spells per day. Especially if you're using your powers at higher costs than standard because you have to work that out and then subtract it and keep in mind manifester level and so on.
Whether or not trading versatility for simplicity is worth it or not is a seperate question.