We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way. [Dollhouse, Whedon spoilers]

EddieDean

mcdermott wrote: »

After this episode I'm convinced this is going to play out like a meta-Whedon-show.

Where I finally let go and fall deeply in love with the show, then it's killed horribly in front of me.

Well played, Joss.


EDIT: It's actually hard to remember the Dollhouse of the first few episodes, the one that was "kinda okay" and "I guess I'll keep watching."

Haha, good point.

One Whedon character loves another Whedon character, then one dies.
One viewer loves a Whedon show, the show dies.

Lacroix

Noo! My favourite chaacter!

---> I realise i'm probably the only one here who felt that, but still. I felt like I 'got' him, and understood his motivations much more than Boyd, who as has been pointed out, is looking more and more like the real mole after this episode.

I was a Dominic/DeWitt shipper already and whilst i'm glad the issue was adressed that there was something there, i'd have liked to have seen more hints of that.

Liking the crazy obsessive Ballard. He still feels like a walking cliche at times, but i do like him. Loving the fact that they are just breaking him so hard, it'll to be interesting to see who he turns into.

So, new fave characters need to have a space and now there are so many! When the series began, evebn five weeks in it was like 'well i don't really know these characters' and now I even like Echo! Not Caroline mind you, but the Echo we are seeing now is quite interesting.

I will buy the DVD set, but I don't know how often I can sit through episodes 2-4 (I actually thought the pilot wasnt too bad, and liked the cult leader ep... though not as much as the awesome that the show has now become)

Sorry for the brainfart of a post, but its been a while since TV did this to me. BSG could on occasion, but really there hasnt been many episodes of a TV show that have felt quite as intense as this weeks Dollhouse.

ElJeffe

Yeah, this show is now fantastic. I think I like it more than Firefly.

So I guess it's doomed.

Spawnbroker

Are the ratings for last night up yet?

North

Spoiler:

Great episode. Dominic caught me by surprise but they still have a mole sending messages to Ballard.

Something else I noticed, I watched it on tv instead of the internet and they said something about a dollhouse episode coming in two weeks. I don't know if they were just previewing an episode two weeks out or if they changed the schedule on it and they are only playing new episodes every two weeks now but it seems strange to me.

DevoutlyApathetic

The magic of TVguide.com says....

Prisonbreak is premiering with two hour long episodes. It appears that it will lead in to Dollhouse from now on.

Though the 8 o'clock one is a repeat.... I think it's a continuing drama so that might make some sense but still...weird.

area

From over here.

Marc Berman wrote:

Speaking of Dollhouse, the cancellation clock continues to click, with a mere 3.56 million viewers (#4 and tied with lead-in Sarah Connor) and a 1.4/ 4 among adults 18-49 (#3) at 9 p.m. Sorry Dollhouse fans…the future just does not look good.

Putting it in the nice little table that's been running through the thread:

Episode 1 - 4.8 million, 2.0 in 18-49 demo.
Episode 2 - 4.3 million, 1.7 in 18-49 demo. 5% share.
Episode 3 - 4.2 million, 1.6 in 18-49 demo. 5% share.
Episode 4 - 3.5 million, 1.5 in 18-49 demo, 5% share.
Episode 5 - 4.3 million, 1.6 in 18-49 demo, 5% share.
Episode 6 - 4.1 million, 1.5 in 18-49 demo, 5% share.
Episode 7 - 3.9 million, 1.4 in 18-49 demo, 4% share.
Episode 8 - 3.5 million, 1.4 in 18-49 demo, 5% share.
Episode 9 - 3.6 million, 1.4 in 18-49 demo, 4% share.

Emonk

I'm going to spoiler all this just in case:

Spoiler:

NO FLIPPIN' WAY is Dominic the mole that has been communicating with Ballard.

Although it is a little weird. Dominic has been there for three years, but he doesn't strike me as the type that could pull off installing the chip into the chair. The NSA only seemed to want to keep tabs on the Dollhouse though. It didn't seem to me that they were tampering with imprints. So does that mean the other mole was aware of the presence of the chip, and was using it to slip messages out to Ballard? I guess it could have been the NSA doing it, but it seems like they could have found a less dangerous way of communicating with him, being on the outside and all.

The obvious choice for the real mole is Amy Acker, with Boyd coming in as a less but still obvious number two.

So was Alpha an imprint gone awry, as we were initially led to believe, or was he programmed to do what he did with the chip in the chair?

My tiny brain boggles with all these questions.

Spawnbroker

Im gonna go out on a limb here. I think the mole is a sleeper active with the person's normal identity as the dominant mode, programmed to sneak in and reprogram Topher's stuff without them even knowing it. In other words, I think the mole is somebody who was captured by Alpha and he just kept their normal personality but put in a sleeper condition where they go and mess with the programming every once in a while.

Edit: Also, those ratings are depressing. This is what happens when you put a good show in the Friday night death slot. It DIES.

Emonk

You're probably right. I don't think it can be anybody who is totally obvious.

deadonthestreet

Ok yeah that episode was really good.

Thetheroo

Oh God, I love this show so much.

I loved the way they flipped around with the actives, it made the episode a hundred times cooler.

piL

I think I know a character dying soon.

Spoiler:

The new Handler is fucked.

Still crossing my fingers on the folowing:

Dominic's right, and Echo does go insane, killing a couple of named characters and a ton of redshirts

Spoiler:

If it happens, the new handler'll probably be the first to go

No actual spy, but actives passing around the spy role

The Dollhouse exists, not for it's philanthropic part, but not for some evil take over the world thing either. True motive of the Dollhouse? To build up a powerful enough network to fight off second, more powerful enemy, the __________.

Dashui

piL wrote: »

I think I know a character dying soon.

Spoiler:

The new Handler is fucked.

Still crossing my fingers on the folowing:

Dominic's right, and Echo does go insane, killing a couple of named characters and a ton of redshirts

Spoiler:

If it happens, the new handler'll probably be the first to go

No actual spy, but actives passing around the spy role

The Dollhouse exists, not for it's philanthropic part, but not for some evil take over the world thing either. True motive of the Dollhouse? To build up a powerful enough network to fight off second, more powerful enemy, the __________.

Reavers!

Starcross

DeWitt doesn't seem at all concerned about Echo's potential Alpha-ing. She just seems to blow off everyones warnings about it. I'm starting to think she maybe wants a composite incident for some reason.

Magell

Alpha's composite was bad because he had 'default' ninja skills, which Echo doesn't. Plus a composite isn't neccessarily bad.

I want the real mole to turn out as Dr. Saunders, but it seems too obvious for that to happen. Of course there is the chance that since it's the obvious choice so it can't be, that it will be. I can't picture Boyd as the mole, it just doesn't feel right.

Millie revealing to Ballard that she was a doll was an awesome moment. Perfectly played and very painful for the characters.

The latest episode was great with characters developing, and the plot moving along well. Switching from imprint to imprint was a great choice for this episode.

DVG

It occurs to me, that the solution to their security woes, at least most of them, would be solved by making every employee in the Dollhouse a doll. Wiped, reprinted with their own personality plus a loyalty clause.

Of course, I'm not complaining. If they did that the show would probably suck

Emonk

It occurs to me that maybe they are.

Element Brian

This show is Amazingly Fantastic. I wish they had put a little more into Ballard's emotion of finding out about Mellie, but still, the situation is so fantastically dark and twisted now. Hes on a mission to save people like Mellie, especially from people he sees as perverts who exploit them for sex, and NOW what does he have to do? He has to sleep with her and basically exploit her in order to keep the charade up. Its such a great plot.

DeathPrawn

Emonk wrote: »

It occurs to me that maybe they are.

Spoiler:

If everyone (including Dominic) was wiped, and Dominic still became a spy, there's only one reasonable conclusion other than "shit doesn't work". Dominic was being loyal to the Dollhouse in that he thought it was in the best of the Dollhouse's intentions that he keep on secretly spying. In other word, he honestly believed the "saving the Dollhouse from itself" stuff he was saying.

I can't believe, though, that the Dollhouse higher-ups would go through the trouble of wiping all of its staff only to allow enough wiggle room so that a relatively low-level employee can make a large-scale value judgements as to what's 'best' for the Dollhouse.

Big Dookie

Emonk wrote: »

Is it okay to like this show now?

Because I think it's getting really fucking good.

After that massive disappointment and subsequent black hole of entertainment that the BSG finale gave me, Dollhouse has replaced it now as my go-to Friday night show. I'm not prepared yet to say that it's the best show on TV or anything, but it might just become that at this rate. Which will only make the inevitable cancellation worse.

shryke

We were talking about this before and I think Doll imprints are just too limited to really function effectively as heads of something like this. They aren't well-rounded enough and can't react well enough to any situation.

OptimusZed

DeathPrawn wrote: »

Emonk wrote: »

It occurs to me that maybe they are.

Spoiler:

If everyone (including Dominic) was wiped, and Dominic still became a spy, there's only one reasonable conclusion other than "shit doesn't work". Dominic was being loyal to the Dollhouse in that he thought it was in the best of the Dollhouse's intentions that he keep on secretly spying. In other word, he honestly believed the "saving the Dollhouse from itself" stuff he was saying.

I can't believe, though, that the Dollhouse higher-ups would go through the trouble of wiping all of its staff only to allow enough wiggle room so that a relatively low-level employee can make a large-scale value judgements as to what's 'best' for the Dollhouse.

Spoiler:

"Head of Security" isn't a low-level employee. He's the number two guy at that dollhouse.

That said, wiping and rebuilding everyone seems excessive. More likely most of them are just payed extremely well and know they would face the wrath of the dollhouse and it's connections should they cause problems.

Balefuego

shryke wrote: »

We were talking about this before and I think Doll imprints are just too limited to really function effectively as heads of something like this. They aren't well-rounded enough and can't react well enough to any situation.

unless they are Echo

wazilla

OptimusZed wrote: »

DeathPrawn wrote: »

Emonk wrote: »

It occurs to me that maybe they are.

Spoiler:

If everyone (including Dominic) was wiped, and Dominic still became a spy, there's only one reasonable conclusion other than "shit doesn't work". Dominic was being loyal to the Dollhouse in that he thought it was in the best of the Dollhouse's intentions that he keep on secretly spying. In other word, he honestly believed the "saving the Dollhouse from itself" stuff he was saying.

I can't believe, though, that the Dollhouse higher-ups would go through the trouble of wiping all of its staff only to allow enough wiggle room so that a relatively low-level employee can make a large-scale value judgements as to what's 'best' for the Dollhouse.

Spoiler:

"Head of Security" isn't a low-level employee. He's the number two guy at that dollhouse.

That said, wiping and rebuilding everyone seems excessive. More likely most of them are just payed extremely well and know they would face the wrath of the dollhouse and it's connections should they cause problems.

Spoiler:

I think he was talking about "low" in terms relative to the dollhouse's multinational heirarchy

OptimusZed

wazilla wrote: »

OptimusZed wrote: »

DeathPrawn wrote: »

Emonk wrote: »

It occurs to me that maybe they are.

Spoiler:

If everyone (including Dominic) was wiped, and Dominic still became a spy, there's only one reasonable conclusion other than "shit doesn't work". Dominic was being loyal to the Dollhouse in that he thought it was in the best of the Dollhouse's intentions that he keep on secretly spying. In other word, he honestly believed the "saving the Dollhouse from itself" stuff he was saying.

I can't believe, though, that the Dollhouse higher-ups would go through the trouble of wiping all of its staff only to allow enough wiggle room so that a relatively low-level employee can make a large-scale value judgements as to what's 'best' for the Dollhouse.

Spoiler:

"Head of Security" isn't a low-level employee. He's the number two guy at that dollhouse.

That said, wiping and rebuilding everyone seems excessive. More likely most of them are just payed extremely well and know they would face the wrath of the dollhouse and it's connections should they cause problems.

Spoiler:

I think he was talking about "low" in terms relative to the dollhouse's multinational heirarchy

Spoiler:

Even in that context, he's in the top 50 in the company (assuming one head and one chief at each house, with a half-dozen or so upper-level management), and even higher depending on where the LA house falls in the hierarchy of houses.

He's not a handler or a yoga instructor; he's important.

David_T

Emonk wrote: »

It occurs to me that maybe they are.

But "Echoes" showed who aren't Dolls by how they reacted to the drug.

Spoiler:

Including Dominic, DeWitt, Boyd (and by extension, the rest of the handlers) and Topher.

wazilla

OptimusZed wrote: »

Spoiler:

Even in that context, he's in the top 50 in the company (assuming one head and one chief at each house, with a half-dozen or so upper-level management), and even higher depending on where the LA house falls in the hierarchy of houses.

He's not a handler or a yoga instructor; he's important.

Spoiler:

Thinking about it in this way seems to lead us a bit astray though. I feel like there's such a huge gap between the head of the house and the head of security in terms of power, what they know, influence, etc.

Also keep in mind that the Dollhouse is probably run by some board of directors somewhere that have even more power. A central headquarters, if you will. In this context I think it makes sense to say that Head of Security at one dollhouse branch is probably not a very important position. I mean, DeWitt promoted Boyd without a second thought... it was kind of offhanded. Maybe she was still just trying to play down the significance of the betrayal but that's another thing to wonder.

Magell

It's either strongly implied or flat out stated that Echo isn't a typical doll with her continued rememberances of her past, which I'm pretty sure were caused by the poison she drank in the second episode, which I think Alpha was the cause of.

I know others have said this before, but I really hate the opening credits for this show. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly had me right away. The song is lame, and the video isn't that interesting, and I dislike how I'm not introduced to who the actors play with their name.

I also refuse to fear the cancellation of the show. I'm going to enjoy it while it's here and if it doesn't last that's too bad, but that fear won't stop me from enjoying what I do get.

OptimusZed

wazilla wrote: »

OptimusZed wrote: »

Spoiler:

Even in that context, he's in the top 50 in the company (assuming one head and one chief at each house, with a half-dozen or so upper-level management), and even higher depending on where the LA house falls in the hierarchy of houses.

He's not a handler or a yoga instructor; he's important.

Spoiler:

Thinking about it in this way seems to lead us a bit astray though. I feel like there's such a huge gap between the head of the house and the head of security in terms of power, what they know, influence, etc.

Also keep in mind that the Dollhouse is probably run by some board of directors somewhere that have even more power. A central headquarters, if you will. In this context I think it makes sense to say that Head of Security at one dollhouse branch is probably not a very important position. I mean, DeWitt promoted Boyd without a second thought... it was kind of offhanded. Maybe she was still just trying to play down the significance of the betrayal but that's another thing to wonder.

Spoiler:

I would say that the amount of autonomy evidenced by DeWitt actually makes the security chief more important, not less. It points to the houses being largely isolated from each other, run as singular entities. The board or the equivalent only steps in in extreme circumstances (DeWitt had to specifically notify the other houses about Sierra's handler, for example, whereas in a more tightly monitored arrangement that would be done by someone above her), making the dude who is supposed to be securing the whole thing extremely important. Chances are he knows almost as much as DeWitt and probably has authority to assume command in instances of extreme security breaches and such.

He's not a peon.

Tamin

OptimusZed wrote: »

wazilla wrote: »

OptimusZed wrote: »

Spoiler:

Even in that context, he's in the top 50 in the company (assuming one head and one chief at each house, with a half-dozen or so upper-level management), and even higher depending on where the LA house falls in the hierarchy of houses.

He's not a handler or a yoga instructor; he's important.

Spoiler:

Thinking about it in this way seems to lead us a bit astray though. I feel like there's such a huge gap between the head of the house and the head of security in terms of power, what they know, influence, etc.

Also keep in mind that the Dollhouse is probably run by some board of directors somewhere that have even more power. A central headquarters, if you will. In this context I think it makes sense to say that Head of Security at one dollhouse branch is probably not a very important position. I mean, DeWitt promoted Boyd without a second thought... it was kind of offhanded. Maybe she was still just trying to play down the significance of the betrayal but that's another thing to wonder.

Spoiler:

I would say that the amount of autonomy evidenced by DeWitt actually makes the security chief more important, not less. It points to the houses being largely isolated from each other, run as singular entities. The board or the equivalent only steps in in extreme circumstances (DeWitt had to specifically notify the other houses about Sierra's handler, for example, whereas in a more tightly monitored arrangement that would be done by someone above her), making the dude who is supposed to be securing the whole thing extremely important. Chances are he knows almost as much as DeWitt and probably has authority to assume command in instances of extreme security breaches and such.

He's not a peon.

Spoiler:

And we saw some of that in this episode: he had the authority to lock down the entire house.

OptimusZed

Tamin wrote: »

OptimusZed wrote: »

wazilla wrote: »

OptimusZed wrote: »

Spoiler:

Even in that context, he's in the top 50 in the company (assuming one head and one chief at each house, with a half-dozen or so upper-level management), and even higher depending on where the LA house falls in the hierarchy of houses.

He's not a handler or a yoga instructor; he's important.

Spoiler:

Thinking about it in this way seems to lead us a bit astray though. I feel like there's such a huge gap between the head of the house and the head of security in terms of power, what they know, influence, etc.

Also keep in mind that the Dollhouse is probably run by some board of directors somewhere that have even more power. A central headquarters, if you will. In this context I think it makes sense to say that Head of Security at one dollhouse branch is probably not a very important position. I mean, DeWitt promoted Boyd without a second thought... it was kind of offhanded. Maybe she was still just trying to play down the significance of the betrayal but that's another thing to wonder.

Spoiler:

I would say that the amount of autonomy evidenced by DeWitt actually makes the security chief more important, not less. It points to the houses being largely isolated from each other, run as singular entities. The board or the equivalent only steps in in extreme circumstances (DeWitt had to specifically notify the other houses about Sierra's handler, for example, whereas in a more tightly monitored arrangement that would be done by someone above her), making the dude who is supposed to be securing the whole thing extremely important. Chances are he knows almost as much as DeWitt and probably has authority to assume command in instances of extreme security breaches and such.

He's not a peon.

Spoiler:

And we saw some of that in this episode: he had the authority to lock down the entire house.

Spoiler:

That specific instance was during his time as acting house supervisor, but yeah. The fact that he was left in such a position without a lot of rigmarole is a pretty good indication that his day job lends him some chops within the company.

Emonk

Whoa.

I wasn't being serious folks.

JamesKeenan

The employees aren't dolls. They weren't wiped when they heard Alpha's noise, and they reacted normally to the drug.

They aren't Dolls. Move on.

shryke

Magell wrote: »

I know others have said this before, but I really hate the opening credits for this show. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly had me right away. The song is lame, and the video isn't that interesting, and I dislike how I'm not introduced to who the actors play with their name.

Am I the only one who LIKES the theme song for the show? I quite enjoy it.

Element Brian

shryke wrote: »

Magell wrote: »

I know others have said this before, but I really hate the opening credits for this show. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly had me right away. The song is lame, and the video isn't that interesting, and I dislike how I'm not introduced to who the actors play with their name.

Am I the only one who LIKES the theme song for the show? I quite enjoy it.

First of all, yea I do like the theme song for the show, especially the little riff at the very end.

Second, dude liked the Firefly theme? Buffy and especially Angel, hell yea of course, but "Take my love, take my laaaaaaaaand"? Come on...

Oh and haven't we already been over the whole, Joss Whedon specifically said that he wont have everyone turn out to be dolls?

I mean, somethings he had to keep underwraps like Victor and Mellie being dolls, but, we've already had 2 employees being killed or put in the attic, both of whome we know for a fact wern't dolls. One of them was a handler, the other the near 2nd in command. I'm pretty sure we can assume everyone else inbetween meets the same standard.

Tamin

I'm fairly easy, I suppose. I've liked all of Whedon's theme songs.

Lacroix

TWOP RECAPLET:

the scene ends with Echo dangling him out a window over some cheesy looking blue screen.

--> forgot about that.... so much for 'The Dollhouse is underground' which I thought had been confirmed by now.

Delzhand

shryke wrote: »

Magell wrote: »

I know others have said this before, but I really hate the opening credits for this show. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly had me right away. The song is lame, and the video isn't that interesting, and I dislike how I'm not introduced to who the actors play with their name.

Am I the only one who LIKES the theme song for the show? I quite enjoy it.

I like it, but the original version with lyrics is terrible, probably because the best part of the theme version is the tinkling chimes at the end.

piL wrote: »

I think I know a character dying soon.

Spoiler:

The new Handler is fucked.

Yeah, I turned to my wife and just said "this guy is a redshirt."

JamesKeenan

Lacroix wrote: »

TWOP RECAPLET:

the scene ends with Echo dangling him out a window over some cheesy looking blue screen.

--> forgot about that.... so much for 'The Dollhouse is underground' which I thought had been confirmed by now.

The dollhouse is underground. DeWitt's office isn't and never has been.


Remember the SUV room. They drive up. The Dolls are kept underground.