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We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way. [Dollhouse, Whedon spoilers]
Posts
For me, I can't really get past two things. One, all the damn rape all the time, and two, how completely evil all the non-Doll, non-crazy people with conspiracy theories on their wall are. I get it, they Doll's gave their consent, whatever that means when they're essentially a completely blank, childlike person afterwards, but it still comes across as rape. The fact that they act like children when not being raped just makes the whole thing more disgusting.
Even if you believe that the Dolls aren't being raped on a regular basis, the Dollhouse apparently has no qualms forcing Conspiracy Guy to be raped ("keep having sex with me or they'll make me kill you"), and torturing people if they go against the Dollhouse. Apparently the Attic is sufficiently torturous that the security guy would rather die than go there. And he never gave consent to nothing. Topher, the other lab chick, and the head woman are evil sons of bitches, but the show seems to want me to empathize with them, despite all the raping, killing, and torturing they order, condone, or do directly.
I have other problems with the show too, but I don't want to troll the thread, but I thought it might be good to have the perspective of someone who doesn't watch the show, gave it a try after it got "good", and still thinks it's a bad show. It's not Fox's fault if the show gets cancelled. It's a very niche show with a hard to buy into premise. It was never going to be very popular.
So no, not completely evil. Definitely on the darker end of the gray scale, definitely wrong, not completely evil.
Do we really know this? Because ignoring the fact that ones opinion of 'greater good' can be widly different from another's, how does pimping out the dolls, which they do, help?
I don't see it that way, but again, I've only seen one episode. I don't want to tear down the show in a thread for fans of the show, just offer an outsider's perspective on why the show will have a difficult time succeeding. Unfortunately, I didn't like the show, so I won't be watching any more episodes to gain enough Dollhouse knowledge to discuss the point in much depth.
Regardless of whether you agree with dagrabbit or not, he has a point that most TV viewers (in the kinds of numbers network shows like to see) like a little less gray, particularly of the darker sort, with their shows. Hence the reason shows like The Shield or Dexter do better on cable. There are exceptions, like 24, but I don't think Dollhouse is necessarily one of them. Especially since I think the only reason 24 gets around this is with liberal doses of "America! Fuck yeah!"
My problem is that, based on one episode, I don't see gray, just bad. I believe you guys that it gets more gray if you have more context, but someone just checking out the show might not see it that way.
And the doctor is either the spy or is doing Alpha. She survived his attack for one and the scarring is an easy way to throw people off any connection between them.
These are people doing morally questionable things for a variety of reasons. Everything from fear, to belief in the cause, to "it's just a job", to "I just don' give a sit" to god knows what else.
I've heard this same kind of complaint before and it just seems like people don't actually want grey or interesting. They want a clear line on who's the good guys so I can root for them.
You mean Dominic?
To protect the Dollhouse and it's mission. Whatever that mission is, DeWitt believes in it. And there's no point killing Dominic, when you can basically place him in cold storage and achieve the same effect but with more options in the future.
If they were creating super agents to go all Alias on stuff sure but they're not, they by and large just pimp out the dolls. Theres no grand mission there, just earning money.
How do we know this?
How do we know that the contract for employment at the Dollhouse doesn't allow them to put him up in the Attic for something like this? Granted, any such "contract" wouldn't be enforceable (just like the Dolls' contracts wouldn't be) in the legal system, but I'm sure somebody in a position that high signs something.
Hell, I'm sure all of them do.
And while it may not mention the Attic specifically, and may simply say "to be dealt with as the Dollhouse sees fit," you can bet your ass that a guy like Dominic that continues to work there knows exactly what that means.
Lastly, assuming that the there is some higher purpose of the Dollhouse, then the "righteous cause" that made them send Dominic to the Attic was not having this power fall into the hands of the government instead.
They're dicks.
And researching/refining the technology, plus whatever else that money may be funding.
And?
Or can you simply not understand the appeal of a show about people that aren't particularly nice or good?
Earning money for a purpose. You seem to be assuming the Dollhouse is it. Which is pretty stupid considering the show has told us on multiple occasions that there is more to it then we see.
The Mole is sending Ballard to find the Dollhouse's purpose for fuck's sake.
I'm just saying they're assholes. I'm not saying I don't like the show, I'm just saying they're not out to do some greater good and if they are, only saving the entire planet would justify having a sex slave farm and murder factory.
I mean, we don't think the Government is a nice establishment do we?
They ARE criminals. They have to rely on the fact that people are scared shitless of fucking with the Dollhouse, even their own employees. To let such a huge betrayal go with no punishment would destroy that.
That's not nice, but nobody there is unaware of how illegal what they're doing is.
Borderlands 2 PA Xbox Metatag - Bazillion Guns
DeWitt certainly believes that whatever their purpose is justifies what they are doing.
And, yeah, I think you'll find many people DO think the government is a nice establishment. I'm a fan of roads personally.
Though, at the same time, then you get into questions regarding the nature of existence...because really, if his consciousness is pretty much gone either way is there really even a difference?
The ability to withdraw consent.
In areas where brothels are run in a legal or quasi-legal fashion, prostitutes are free to leave at any point. In this case, the Dollhouse creates an arrangement where that's not possible. Same way you can't sign yourself into slavery, legally, even for limited durations.
Well, except when it's to the government, through the military. Because apparently that's okay.
Now they've wiped his consciousness its arguable he can ever exist again anyway though thats getting into a deep off topic discussion. If they can download his mind into another body then is it still really him or just data now? hmm.
And then after five years, Jesus!
So really, is five years of necrophilia worth one day of Jesus? Next, on Fox.
occasionallywearsahat.com, my rambly ramblings of ramble
And I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually starting to like Topher. Yes, in the grand scheme of things, he is someone that enables rape, etc. but something about his mannerisms, which grated on me at first has made me start to come around.
I'm actually hoping that he's the mole.
The technology doesn't seem nearly stable enough for that. I'm surprised they're even comfortable sending out "sleeper" dolls.
Borderlands 2 PA Xbox Metatag - Bazillion Guns
Some of the best sci fi is essentially a series of metaphors and allegories, utilizing futuristic technology, aliens, etc. in order to explore real social issues and philosophical concepts in a fictionalized context.
However, that's not really what Dollhouse is doing, it's doing the other thing good sci fi can do really well: present us with theoretical realities where technologies or other discoveries/innovations have led us to moral and ethical quandaries that we might not otherwise even consider possible.
The kind of operation Dollhouse is running, as shown in the show thus far, isn't really directly comparable to things we are already familiar with (brothels, slave rings, secret societies of assassins, whatever) because the nature of the technology involved and what it is capable of letting people do calls upon the viewer to really look hard at their ethical reasoning behind why they might look at it the way they do.
And I think you have good sci fi when it is causing you to ask these questions and have these discussions.
Well, I think the organization demands, for the most part, that the dolls enter the agreement more-or-less consensually. Sierra seems to be the only exception, and we're still not sure of exactly how that went down (though certainly coercion was involved, as it usually is).
So they probably have a limited supply of people they run across who are in positions where they'd agree to the terms.
People without family, ties and who don't live in the immediate area and attended a large university where people might recognise her.
Its decisions like that, that make the concept of the Dollhouse remaining largely an urban myth hard to swallow.
It would make some sense if people could more easily be imprinted with their own personality, slightly modified, than with a series of completely different personalities. Hell, that might even explain the whole "sleeper" doll thing. They're less malleable dolls so they have limited uses.
At the end though it's probably just practical economics issues. Sitting down in that chair for the first time would require a shitload of a pay check.
Borderlands 2 PA Xbox Metatag - Bazillion Guns
Aww, poor Joss. Fox broke him. Again.
Should make the Dollhouse Paleyfest interesting.