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Confederate Heritage

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Comments

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    The entire debate has been the equivalent of "nuh-uh!" "uh-huh!".

    Tell me, do you have a problem with the Union Jack? Because that was flown over far more enslaved peoples than the Confederate flag (which isn't actually the "Confederate" flag in the first place, but a combination of the Confederate Navy Jack and the Confederate battle flag) ever was.
    The Union Jack means a million different things, because it flew over all sorts of different things. Slavery was part of it, and that sucked, yes, but it was also there at the liberation of France from the Germans. England is a country that has existed for a very, very long time.

    The Confederate flag flew over a country that was established for the purpose of perpetuating slavery. It existed for four years, all four years of which were spent doing one thing: fighting a war to protect slavery. The fucking flag is synonymous with the enslavement of black people in the U.S. It doesn't mean anything else because there's nothing else there for it to mean. There is no conceivable thing it could represent other than that, much like the Nazi flag, and if you're flying it and you're not aware of that, you're a goddamn gibbering retard, and if you're flying it and you are aware of that, you're a fucking racist asshole.
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means. You're choosing to believe it means something on your own, based on your views of history. And again, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying WW2 was fought over land.

    h1DI1.jpg
    All my fuckin life I lived a normal fuckin life
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Limp moose wrote: »
    This same course taken at VMI had an almost 180 degree slant. The north were aggressors and the south were valiant homeland defenders. Now why does this happen. They are both using the same source material and I mean history does have facts. so how do we end up with two different stories?
    Virginia Military Institute had postive things to say about armed traitors?

    Something seems off there.

    VIRGINIA Military Institute.
    Is it less associated with the U.S. Military than the title would suggest? Because if it's not, lionizing traitors seems like it would be frowned upon.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. On Hiatus!

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  • Limp mooseLimp moose Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Limp moose wrote: »
    This same course taken at VMI had an almost 180 degree slant. The north were aggressors and the south were valiant homeland defenders. Now why does this happen. They are both using the same source material and I mean history does have facts. so how do we end up with two different stories?
    Virginia Military Institute had postive things to say about armed traitors?

    Something seems off there.

    LOL

    mr robot you are aware that VMI cadets fought in the civil war on the side of the CONFEDERACY!

    in their opinion the armed traitors were the north.

    Haha that made me lol.

  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Limp moose wrote: »
    This same course taken at VMI had an almost 180 degree slant. The north were aggressors and the south were valiant homeland defenders. Now why does this happen. They are both using the same source material and I mean history does have facts. so how do we end up with two different stories?
    Virginia Military Institute had postive things to say about armed traitors?

    Something seems off there.

    VIRGINIA Military Institute.
    Is it less associated with the U.S. Military than the title would suggest? Because if it's not, lionizing traitors seems like it would be frowned upon.

    this country was founded by traitors that we lionize. but then again you are only a traitor if you don't succeed.

  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means.
    This is not how things work. How would anything hold any meaning or be able to convey any idea if meaning were determined entirely by each individual?

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means. You're choosing to believe it means something on your own, based on your views of history. And again, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying WW2 was fought over land.

    Awesome! I've always thought the Nazi Flag should mean "I love potato pancakes." I'm going to make sure I fly it really high over my apartment so all my Jewish neighbors know how much I enjoy their latkes.

  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Limp moose wrote: »
    This same course taken at VMI had an almost 180 degree slant. The north were aggressors and the south were valiant homeland defenders. Now why does this happen. They are both using the same source material and I mean history does have facts. so how do we end up with two different stories?
    Virginia Military Institute had postive things to say about armed traitors?

    Something seems off there.

    VMI was essentially the West Point for the Confederacy, Stonewall Jackson was the Superintendent, until the 1970s they sang Dixie and saluted the Confederate flag, especially on May 15 the commemorate Battle of New Market was fought between VMI cadets, Confederates and the Union troops. Its a very Southern school

    11793-1.png
    Spoiler:
  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    For the record, this debate is silly. The people who fly the flag could give a fuck about the implications, and certainly would not frequent such a place as this. The people who are defending them are, as Yar said, probably just resisting the "South, yuk yuk yuk" thing in the wrong way. For my part, in spite of all the horrible things that go on down here, it's harder for me to separate the things I like about the place from the overall image of "South" that the rest of you see.

  • Limp mooseLimp moose Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »

    The Confederate flag flew over a country that was established for the purpose of perpetuating slavery. It existed for four years, all four years of which were spent doing one thing: fighting a war to protect slavery. The fucking flag is synonymous with the enslavement of black people in the U.S. It doesn't mean anything else because there's nothing else there for it to mean. There is no conceivable thing it could represent other than that, much like the Nazi flag, and if you're flying it and you're not aware of that, you're a goddamn gibbering retard, and if you're flying it and you are aware of that, you're a fucking racist asshole.

    To you. And most people educated in the north.

    To them Not so much. I know black southerners who fly that flag. It does mean something else to them.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means. You're choosing to believe it means something on your own, based on your views of history. And again, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying WW2 was fought over land.
    No, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying the Revolutionary war was fought because we didn't want to be a colony anymore. Sure, there were a bunch of other issues there, but when you get right down to it, that's why we were fighting. You haven't actually presented any evidence that the war was fought over anything but slavery. The members of the fucking Confederacy said it was fought over slavery. What more do you fucking need?

    And again, if they're ascribing a meaning to it other than "support of black slavery," they're gibbering retards.

  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means. You're choosing to believe it means something on your own, based on your views of history. And again, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying WW2 was fought over land.

    Awesome! I've always thought the Nazi Flag should mean "I love potato pancakes." I'm going to make sure I fly it really high over my apartment so all my Jewish neighbors know how much I enjoy their latkes.

    Symbols don't have different meanings depending on their context?

    Surprise.
    - Spy
  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means. You're choosing to believe it means something on your own, based on your views of history. And again, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying WW2 was fought over land.

    Awesome! I've always thought the Nazi Flag should mean "I love potato pancakes." I'm going to make sure I fly it really high over my apartment so all my Jewish neighbors know how much I enjoy their latkes.

    Man! I can't believe you just promised to have sex with a blue whale. Or at least that's what I take your words to mean.

    Man this is confusing, its almost like we need a shared lexicon of what words and symbols mean in which to cultivate communication. A "culture" if you will.

    11793-1.png
    Spoiler:
  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means.
    This is not how things work. How would anything hold any meaning or be able to convey any idea if meaning were determined entirely by each individual?

    in songs you care about the artists message and in paintings you care about the viewers interpretation. it depends.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Limp moose wrote: »
    This same course taken at VMI had an almost 180 degree slant. The north were aggressors and the south were valiant homeland defenders. Now why does this happen. They are both using the same source material and I mean history does have facts. so how do we end up with two different stories?
    Virginia Military Institute had postive things to say about armed traitors?

    Something seems off there.

    VIRGINIA Military Institute.
    Is it less associated with the U.S. Military than the title would suggest? Because if it's not, lionizing traitors seems like it would be frowned upon.
    One of the core tenets in US history is the right to fight for what you believe in. The actual war in the Civil War was the last recourse of the secessionists, there were years of legislative wrangling before war actually broke out. Historically it's the same as the US declaring independence from England, just with a different outcome.

    h1DI1.jpg
    All my fuckin life I lived a normal fuckin life
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means.
    This is not how things work. How would anything hold any meaning or be able to convey any idea if meaning were determined entirely by each individual?
    In their defense, this is coming from people who think "y'all" is a word.

  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited February 2009
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means.

    Sure, you can say that. Absent any actual practical real-world experience with how symbols and communication actually work, that is. Have you done any reading on semiotics? Would you care to actually back up your startlingly bold assertion that you know who ascribes meaning to symbols?

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    And again, if they're ascribing a meaning to it other than "support of black slavery," they're gibbering retards.

    Now you're just being closed-minded, Than. It could also mean "I oppose integration and stringent anti-lynching laws!"

  • Limp mooseLimp moose Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    And again, if they're ascribing a meaning to it other than "support of black slavery," they're gibbering retards.

    The funny thing is I am sure they feel the same about you.




    The south is a fucked up place. I am not saying you are incorrect. I am just trying to point out the reason for their line of thinking. However flawed it may be.

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    In their defense, this is coming from people who think "y'all" is a word.

    Y'all is a fine word; it's a contraction between you and all formed in the standard manner. It also fulfills a needed function, as modern English otherwise lacks a second person plural personal pronoun. So lay off y'all.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    One of the core tenets in US history is the right to fight for what you believe in. The actual war in the Civil War was the last recourse of the secessionists, there were years of legislative wrangling before war actually broke out. Historically it's the same as the US declaring independence from England, just with a different outcome.
    Except that the U.S. listed a bunch of grievances with England (including economic and civil liberties) before they declared war, and had a bunch of reasons for doing it.

    The Confederacy did the same thing, of course. Here, let me replicate that list:

    1. Slavery

    So, yeah, not quite the same thing.

  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Limp moose wrote: »
    This same course taken at VMI had an almost 180 degree slant. The north were aggressors and the south were valiant homeland defenders. Now why does this happen. They are both using the same source material and I mean history does have facts. so how do we end up with two different stories?
    Virginia Military Institute had postive things to say about armed traitors?

    Something seems off there.

    VIRGINIA Military Institute.
    Is it less associated with the U.S. Military than the title would suggest? Because if it's not, lionizing traitors seems like it would be frowned upon.

    this country was founded by traitors that we lionize. but then again you are only a traitor if you don't succeed.

    No, you're still a traitor, it's just that when you succeed, you don't have to face the consequences for your treason.

    Also, my understanding of military academies is that the CW is studied for the military and political implications. They may have lost, but the Confederates had some pretty good battles.

    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    One of the core tenets in US history is the right to fight for what you believe in. The actual war in the Civil War was the last recourse of the secessionists, there were years of legislative wrangling before war actually broke out. Historically it's the same as the US declaring independence from England, just with a different outcome.

    Bullshit.

    If a core tenet of "US history" was the right to fight for what you believe in, Daniel Shay would be on some money.

    The US Revolution was fought because of no representation. The South had dominated the Federal government for decades. An election going against you is not the same as disenfranchisement.

    11793-1.png
    Spoiler:
  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    In their defense, this is coming from people who think "y'all" is a word.

    Y'all is a fine word; it's a contraction between you and all formed in the standard manner. It also fulfills a needed function, as modern English otherwise lacks a second person plural personal pronoun. So lay off y'all.

    Yeah, that's going a little too far.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    In their defense, this is coming from people who think "y'all" is a word.
    Y'all is a fine word; it's a contraction between you and all formed in the standard manner. It also fulfills a needed function, as modern English otherwise lacks a second person plural personal pronoun. So lay off y'all.
    If that were how anyone actually used it, that would make sense. Except they don't, they use it in the singular, too.

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means. You're choosing to believe it means something on your own, based on your views of history. And again, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying WW2 was fought over land.

    Awesome! I've always thought the Nazi Flag should mean "I love potato pancakes." I'm going to make sure I fly it really high over my apartment so all my Jewish neighbors know how much I enjoy their latkes.

    Symbols don't have different meanings depending on their context?
    Sure, but unless you're doing a reenactment or something then the stars and bars definitely represents some degree of support for the confederacy. That doesn't change just because some people are ignorant of it. That doesn't make them racists, but it sure as shit makes them look like racists.

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  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    We do? I was under the impression I used it to address a group of people.

  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    In their defense, this is coming from people who think "y'all" is a word.
    Y'all is a fine word; it's a contraction between you and all formed in the standard manner. It also fulfills a needed function, as modern English otherwise lacks a second person plural personal pronoun. So lay off y'all.
    If that were how anyone actually used it, that would make sense. Except they don't, they use it in the singular, too.

    I will cede that using y'all as a singular is indefensible.

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means.

    Sure, you can say that. Absent any actual practical real-world experience with how symbols and communication actually work, that is. Have you done any reading on semiotics? Would you care to actually back up your startlingly bold assertion that you know who ascribes meaning to symbols?
    Considering there is such a heated debate over what it actually means, who are you to decide? If you're allowed to decide that, since racists fly it, it must be racist, I'm allowed to decide that since people fly it who simply see it as a symbol of southern life, it must simply be a symbol of southern life.

    And if you want to get into what it actually means, it means "We are the Confederate army/navy."

    h1DI1.jpg
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  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I can say honestly that I've never, in a one on one situation, ever been asked, "What do y'all want to do?"

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    In their defense, this is coming from people who think "y'all" is a word.
    Y'all is a fine word; it's a contraction between you and all formed in the standard manner. It also fulfills a needed function, as modern English otherwise lacks a second person plural personal pronoun. So lay off y'all.
    If that were how anyone actually used it, that would make sense. Except they don't, they use it in the singular, too.
    Well that's exactly how I use it. I honestly haven't heard anyone use "y'all" to refer to a single person outside of television and film.

    "Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    And I haven't heard it there.

  • thisisntwallythisisntwally Registered User regular
    edited February 2009

    And if you want to get into what it actually means, it means "We are the Confederate army/navy."

    read: we support treason. with violence. to preserve slavery.

    #someshit
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Hachface wrote: »
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means. You're choosing to believe it means something on your own, based on your views of history. And again, saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is like saying WW2 was fought over land.

    Awesome! I've always thought the Nazi Flag should mean "I love potato pancakes." I'm going to make sure I fly it really high over my apartment so all my Jewish neighbors know how much I enjoy their latkes.

    Symbols don't have different meanings depending on their context?

    Sure they do. I made this point pages and pages ago. But how much context do you get from a guy with the flag on a flagpole in his yard, or draped across the back window of his pickup, or on a sticker on his car?

    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • MagnumCTMagnumCT Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    This whole debate gets a little ticky-tack when it leaves "Slavery bad!" and turns into "You're all idiots."

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    One of the core tenets in US history is the right to fight for what you believe in. The actual war in the Civil War was the last recourse of the secessionists, there were years of legislative wrangling before war actually broke out. Historically it's the same as the US declaring independence from England, just with a different outcome.

    Bullshit.

    If a core tenet of "US history" was the right to fight for what you believe in, Daniel Shay would be on some money.

    The US Revolution was fought because of no representation. The South had dominated the Federal government for decades. An election going against you is not the same as disenfranchisement.
    No one ever said you had to be in the right to fight for what you believe in.

    h1DI1.jpg
    All my fuckin life I lived a normal fuckin life
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Considering there is such a heated debate over what it actually means, who are you to decide? If you're allowed to decide that, since racists fly it, it must be racist, I'm allowed to decide that since people fly it who simply see it as a symbol of southern life, it must simply be a symbol of southern life.

    And if you want to get into what it actually means, it means "We are the Confederate army/navy."
    And what was the Confederate army/navy established to do? Oh, that's right, defend the institution of slavery. Thanks for ceding that one.

  • KageraKagera Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Sooo...if someone made a thread that was referred positively to the Confederacy, it'd fill with hate against the old South quicker.
    Well yeah because those titles attract different kinds of people.

    There's always going to be two sides in every thread, the realists and the absolutists.
    This is like how everyone's grandfather in Germany was a medic, right?

    Same way all the Allies were great people and did nothing bad except for the racial discrimination, looting, and other stuff.

    See that's what you sound like to me. As if had you been raised in pre-Civil War South you'd nobly stand against slavery with pure righteousness and moral perfection.

    “This is America. We’re entitled to our opinions.”
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  • HachfaceHachface Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    I'd say that the meanings ascribed to it by the people who choose to fly it are what it actually means.

    Sure, you can say that. Absent any actual practical real-world experience with how symbols and communication actually work, that is. Have you done any reading on semiotics? Would you care to actually back up your startlingly bold assertion that you know who ascribes meaning to symbols?
    Considering there is such a heated debate over what it actually means, who are you to decide? If you're allowed to decide that, since racists fly it, it must be racist, I'm allowed to decide that since people fly it who simply see it as a symbol of southern life, it must simply be a symbol of southern life.

    And if you want to get into what it actually means, it means "We are the Confederate army/navy."

    Funny that you call this a "debate." Many people in this thread have pointed out how inseparable the ideas of "Confederacy" and "slavery" are; PantsB went so far as to produce primary historical sources that demonstrate how slavery was not only the primary reason for secession but practically the only issue the Confederacy cared about. You, on the other hand, just assert that it can mean something else. You make this assertion over and over again. We're still waiting for an argument.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    One of the core tenets in US history is the right to fight for what you believe in. The actual war in the Civil War was the last recourse of the secessionists, there were years of legislative wrangling before war actually broke out. Historically it's the same as the US declaring independence from England, just with a different outcome.
    Bullshit.

    If a core tenet of "US history" was the right to fight for what you believe in, Daniel Shay would be on some money.

    The US Revolution was fought because of no representation. The South had dominated the Federal government for decades. An election going against you is not the same as disenfranchisement.
    No one ever said you had to be in the right to fight for what you believe in.
    No, but you have to be a little more right than "I'm going to kill 300,000 people because I don't want them taking away my right to own black people."

  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    MagnumCT wrote: »
    I can say honestly that I've never, in a one on one situation, ever been asked, "What do y'all want to do?"
    I have! In fact, I (by myself) went to JiffyLube today (Indianapolis, IN) and the young lady that went over my services with me asked "will y'all be wantin' our JiffyLube Signacha Oil Change today?" I had to ask her to repeat herself. She then went on to use the word "winders", as the plural form of "window."

    /tangent

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